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The meat industry

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Barb - 28 Dec 2003 20:32 GMT
This mad cow scare comes just about a couple weeks after the greedy meat
industry jacked  its prices sky high and I heard a lot of complaints while
shopping in the supermarket.

Why would they have bought cows from Canada where they had an outbreak of
the disease?

--
  Barb
  I can only please one person a day.
  Today is not your day.
  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Sherry - 28 Dec 2003 20:55 GMT
>This mad cow scare comes just about a couple weeks after the greedy meat
>industry jacked  its prices sky high and I heard a lot of complaints while
>shopping in the supermarket.

I noticed that also, Barb. The cattle market here hit an all-time high this
past fall, with increases in meat at the market *and* on the hoof. I don't eat
beef anyway, but I *am* concerned about the small family farm operations who
depend on the cattle industry for their livelihood.  
It just seems peculiar that the "Mad Cow" scare comes at this particular time.
Probably coincidental but it makes you wonder.

Sherry
Joe Canuck - 28 Dec 2003 22:07 GMT
> Why would they have bought cows from Canada where they had an outbreak of
> the disease?

I wouldn't exactly call finding the disease in ONE cow an outbreak.

Signature

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

Barb - 29 Dec 2003 17:11 GMT
You wouldn't call one cow an outbreak?  Well, I guess you don't represent
the more than 2 dozen countries that are now refusing to import meat from
the USA.  Don't forget, every cow in the country is not tested, only a
fraction.  And if you are the person that posted that "downer " cows are
only used for pet and livestock food, guess again.  They are used the same
as healthy cows, for human food.

--
  Barb
  I can only please one person a day.
  Today is not your day.
  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
PawsForThought - 29 Dec 2003 16:58 GMT
>From: "Barb" bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us

>You wouldn't call one cow an outbreak?  Well, I guess you don't represent
>the more than 2 dozen countries that are now refusing to import meat from
>the USA.  Don't forget, every cow in the country is not tested, only a
>fraction.

What I found interesting, and rather scary, is that instead of testing food
that is fed cattle to make sure that bonemeal and other animal products are not
in it, they are testing only the suppliers' documentation (their records).
They really need to test the feed, not just look at records.

Lauren

________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 29 Dec 2003 23:56 GMT
>From: "Barb" bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us

>You wouldn't call one cow an outbreak?  

No sane person would think that one of anything is an "outbreak".
Joe Canuck - 31 Dec 2003 01:24 GMT
> You wouldn't call one cow an outbreak?  

No I would not.

"Outbreak" implies a sudden increase in disease. Just as a report of one
person getting the flu in a city is not considered an outbreak, a report
 of one cow getting a disease is also not an outbreak.

Signature

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

Cheryl - 31 Dec 2003 02:30 GMT
Dec 2003:

> "Outbreak" implies a sudden increase in disease. Just as a report of one
> person getting the flu in a city is not considered an outbreak, a report
>   of one cow getting a disease is also not an outbreak.

So this is an isolated incident.  Is that it?  For real, how many "isolated
incidents" involving a serious condition involving food sources happen?  Is
this a freak?  Was the first cow with BSE in the UK an isolated incident?  
When did they find out it was not?  How *long* did it take before it was
decided it wasn't an isolated incident? Is our government scared this will
escalate beyond an isolated incident? I would bet they are.  This  isn't
the flu.  You people can say how low a risk it is just because it has only
affected so much of a percent of human life but if the FDA bans a diet aid
for causing only a couple of hundred deaths, what do they do about the
possiblity of a tainted food supply?  Who cares about one company that
produces a diet aid.  f.ck with the livelyhoods of American agriculture  
and exported goods, well it will just have to excalate further before it is
taken seriously.  Heh.  You people crack me up.  The "who cares" attitude
is what makes these things escalate.  You keep trusting in FDA and USDA
testing and whatever they say.  The rest of us will keep making noise.

Signature

Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

PawsForThought - 31 Dec 2003 03:15 GMT
>From: Cheryl jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com

>Dec 2003:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>is what makes these things escalate.  You keep trusting in FDA and USDA
>testing and whatever they say.  The rest of us will keep making noise.

Well said, Cheryl.  If it was such a "nothing" why have over 24 countries
banned import of U.S. beef?  

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 31 Dec 2003 18:11 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

>Well said, Cheryl.  If it was such a "nothing" why have over 24 countries
>banned import of U.S. beef?

Lauren, you're really a mental midget.  They are doing it as a safeguard and
nothing else.  I'm sure those countries will be "back at the dinner table" of
the US in a matter of months at the longest.  Mark my words.
hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com - 31 Dec 2003 04:10 GMT
>Dec 2003:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>is what makes these things escalate.  You keep trusting in FDA and USDA
>testing and whatever they say.  The rest of us will keep making noise.

While one case *is* an isolated incident, any further discoveries will
constitute an outbreak. That is just jargon however as far as the
potential ramifications go. I also find it hard to believe that a
single case can exist in a vacuum.

I'm sure the government uses the term "damage control" in many
situations far more often than asking themselves what is the proper
thing to do. I am glad to see the quick move to ban downers from the
food chain even though it was very overdue.

-mhd
GAUBSTER2 - 31 Dec 2003 18:13 GMT
>I'm sure the government uses the term "damage control" in many
>situations far more often than asking themselves what is the proper
>thing to do. I am glad to see the quick move to ban downers from the
>food chain even though it was very overdue.

Agreed.  At least some good came out of all of this.  This really should have
been done a long time ago.  It's amazing how fast things move when they really
want something accomplished, isn't it!  ;)
GAUBSTER2 - 31 Dec 2003 18:10 GMT
>From: Cheryl jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com

>> "Outbreak" implies a sudden increase in disease. Just as a report of one
>> person getting the flu in a city is not considered an outbreak, a report
>>   of one cow getting a disease is also not an outbreak.
>
>So this is an isolated incident.  Is that it?

Yep!  Until it becomes an "outbreak" there is no need worrying yourself any
further.  (unless you like being played for a fool)

>Is our government scared this will
>escalate beyond an isolated incident?

Apparently not, as of right now.

>I would bet they are.  This  isn't
>the flu.

Let's talk about the flu for a moment.  Who got everybody freaked out about the
flu?  The "season" started a little bit earlier than normal, yet the media ran
w/ it and made it seem like a epidemic the likes of which hadn't been seen
since the Dark Ages!  That caused a run on vaccines which depleted the supply
to the point where people who should probably get the vaccine are left
empty-handed in a lot of cases.  Is the media talking about the flu now?  Nope,
not really.  They've moved on to the ONE "mad cow".

>You people can say how low a risk it is just because it has only
>affected so much of a percent of human life but if the FDA bans a diet aid
>for causing only a couple of hundred deaths, what do they do about the
>possiblity of a tainted food supply?

"The possibility"??  What about the possibility of a comet smashing into Earth
tomorrow night, next week, next year, etc.?????  What about the possibility
that anything bad "might", "maybe", "could", "perhaps", happen?  Cheryl, get a
grip!!

> f.ck with the livelyhoods of American agriculture  
>and exported goods, well it will just have to excalate further before it is
>taken seriously.  Heh.  You people crack me up.

Well, it does seem like you've cracked up already!

>The "who cares" attitude
>is what makes these things escalate.

No, not following the guidelines and regulations are what makes these things
escalate.

>You keep trusting in FDA and USDA
>testing and whatever they say.  The rest of us will keep making noise.

I'd rather you make your noise from inside a padded cell.
Cheryl - 31 Dec 2003 19:00 GMT
> I'd rather you make your noise from inside a padded cell.

Quit yer yappin' and ankle biting, little puppy.  Someone really needs to
throw you a bone.
Hagar - 01 Jan 2004 23:25 GMT
> >From: Cheryl jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Yep!  Until it becomes an "outbreak" there is no need worrying yourself any
> further.  (unless you like being played for a fool)

$17 billion here, $17 billion there -- pretty soon, you're
talking as much money as the Bush Administration is funnelling
into Iraq...

It takes $1.25 to buy one Euro these days; you can only spend
money you don't have for so long before people start catching on.

Asia has taken away the electronics business.  Europe has taken
away the aerospace business.  India is busily taking away the
software business.

The last hope the Americans had was to be a food producer.

And, because of its lax safety standards and use of hormones and
genetically enhanced foods, even that seems to be falling by the
wayside.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message was posted via one or more anonymous remailing services.
The original sender is unknown.  Any address shown in the From header
is unverified.
Sherry - 02 Jan 2004 00:10 GMT
>$17 billion here, $17 billion there -- pretty soon, you're
>talking as much money as the Bush Administration is funnelling
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>genetically enhanced foods, even that seems to be falling by the
>wayside.

You know, somehow the conviction of stepping on a soapbox gets a bit shadowed
by an "anonymous remailer" heading.
GAUBSTER2 - 28 Dec 2003 22:41 GMT
>This mad cow scare comes just about a couple weeks after the greedy meat
>industry jacked  its prices sky high and I heard a lot of complaints while
>shopping in the supermarket.

Oh please, Barb!  You sound like one of these leftists going on and on about
greedy entities.  Quit being so paranoid!  Haven't you been following the news?
The low carb craze has driven meat prices up!  It's simple supply and demand.
Barb - 29 Dec 2003 17:14 GMT
LOL.  I'm a Republican, not a leftist!!!

I know the story that the meat prices were jacked up because so many people
went on the lo-carb diet.  That's the meat industry's story.  How many
people do you know that are on that diet?

--
  Barb
  I can only please one person a day.
  Today is not your day.
  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
GAUBSTER2 - 29 Dec 2003 23:57 GMT
>From: "Barb" bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us

>LOL.  I'm a Republican, not a leftist!!!
>
>I know the story that the meat prices were jacked up because so many people
>went on the lo-carb diet.  That's the meat industry's story.  How many
>people do you know that are on that diet?

I know quite a few actually.  You say it's just a story, but there are a LOT of
people jumping on the bandwagon of the low-carb craze.
Barb - 29 Dec 2003 17:17 GMT
Were you the person that thinks "downer" cows are only used for pet and
livestock food?  They are dragged to the slaughterhouse together with the
healthy cattle and prepared for our own markets.

--
  Barb
  I can only please one person a day.
  Today is not your day.
  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
PawsForThought - 29 Dec 2003 17:00 GMT
>From: "Barb" bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us

>Were you the person that thinks "downer" cows are only used for pet and
>livestock food?  They are dragged to the slaughterhouse together with the
>healthy cattle and prepared for our own markets.

Hi Barb,
Scary, isn't it?
BTW, can you cut and paste who you're replying to so I can tell whose post it
was?  Thanks :)

Lauren

________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Barb - 30 Dec 2003 18:01 GMT
Lauren?

I don't know how to cut and paste a post!  Sorry.  I think it was good old
Gaubster that thought downer cows are not put into our food supply.

--
  Barb
  I can only please one person a day.
  Today is not your day.
  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
PawsForThought - 30 Dec 2003 19:39 GMT
>From: "Barb" bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us

>Lauren?
>
>I don't know how to cut and paste a post!  Sorry.  I think it was good old
>Gaubster that thought downer cows are not put into our food supply.

That's ok, Barb.  It just makes it easier to follow along.  I don't know what
software you're using to post, but the way I cut and paste is to highlight the
portion of the post I want to respond to (including the author's name) and then
click on quote (or you can highlight it, then right click on it and click on
Copy).  Then when you are composing your post, just right click in a blank
space and click on Paste.  

Not sure how well I explained this, but I hope it helps :)

Lauren

________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com - 30 Dec 2003 20:28 GMT
> but the way I cut and paste is to highlight the
>portion of the post I want to respond to (including the author's name)

Many software packages for email and news do use this method. I use
Agent for newsgroups and do the above but I have no need to highlight
the author's name as Agent includes that anyway. I then just click
Reply.

Same with Eudora for email. Highlight and click reply. No need to copy
and paste anything.

-mhd
Barb - 01 Jan 2004 19:05 GMT
That's ok, Barb.  It just makes it easier to follow along.  I don't know
what
software you're using to post, but the way I cut and paste is to highlight
the
portion of the post I want to respond to (including the author's name) and
then
click on quote (or you can highlight it, then right click on it and click on
Copy).  Then when you are composing your post, just right click in a blank
space and click on Paste.
 Well, there, Lauren, I guess I did it.  I am using Windows '98 Gateway,
out of date by now, I know.  Thanks for the little instruction.

--
  Barb
  I can only please one person a day.
  Today is not your day.
  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
PawsForThought - 02 Jan 2004 00:54 GMT
>From: "Barb" bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us

>That's ok, Barb.  It just makes it easier to follow along.  I don't know
>what
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>--
>   Barb

You're very welcome, Barb.  As to your computer being out of date, it seems as
soon as one buys a computer, it's already out of date :)

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 30 Dec 2003 20:24 GMT
>From: "Barb" bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us
>Date: 12/30/03 10:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I don't know how to cut and paste a post!  Sorry.  I think it was good old
>Gaubster that thought downer cows are not put into our food supply.

No Barb, I never said any such thing.  I don't have any experience in the beef
industry and don't profess to.  I'm simply stating that anybody freaking out
over this issue (especially as it pertains to cats) is either fear-mongering
because they have an agenda or they can't think for themselves as the risk of
anybody's cat contracting this is almost nil.
Barb - 01 Jan 2004 19:14 GMT
>From: "Barb" bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us
>Date: 12/30/03 10:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I don't know how to cut and paste a post!  Sorry.  I think it was good old
>Gaubster that thought downer cows are not put into our food supply.

No Barb, I never said any such thing.  I don't have any experience in the
beef
industry and don't profess to.  I'm simply stating that anybody freaking out
over this issue (especially as it pertains to cats) is either fear-mongering
because they have an agenda or they can't think for themselves as the risk
of
anybody's cat contracting this is almost nil.

-Okay, G, sorry.   I don't remember, then, who felt downers weren't used for
food.  It's obvious that you are taking this whole mad cow situation very
well.  You can see by the many posts that it has a great many of us very
concerned.  It is true that it's only one cow but unlike Japan, we don't
test every cow.  If only 1 in a million gets vCJD that could be a tiny per
cent but for the millionth person that gets this horrendous disease it's 100
%.

Your opinions are yours but you have every right to state them and I
welcome them.

  Barb
  I can only please one person a day.
  Today is not your day.
  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
GAUBSTER2 - 02 Jan 2004 01:17 GMT
>From: "Barb" bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us

I said:
>No Barb, I never said any such thing.  I don't have any experience in the
>beef
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>of
>anybody's cat contracting this is almost nil.

>-Okay, G, sorry.   I don't remember, then, who felt downers weren't used for
>food.  It's obvious that you are taking this whole mad cow situation very
>well.  You can see by the many posts that it has a great many of us very
>concerned.  

I don't remember who said that either.  It's okay to be concerned, but those
that have an anti-pet food agenda are taking advantage of ONE cow to push their
agenda...that's my point.  As it stands now, there is no evidence to support
the notion that cats (or people) are going to start getting sick in large
numbers.
Judy - 29 Dec 2003 04:45 GMT
> This mad cow scare comes just about a couple weeks after the greedy meat
> industry jacked  its prices sky high and I heard a lot of complaints while
> shopping in the supermarket.
>
> Why would they have bought cows from Canada where they had an outbreak of
> the disease?

The cow in question has been in the U.S. for a couple of years - long before
the outbreak (one case) in Canada this past May. The incubation period for
this disease can be years, so there would be no way of knowing if the cow
was ill until symptoms were exhibited.

What I'd like to know, but will probably never find out, is how this cow got
into the food chain in the first place, and why only after it got there, did
someone decide to raise a flag??

Judy
MacCandace - 30 Dec 2003 03:55 GMT
<< What I'd like to know, but will probably never find out, is how this cow got
into the food chain in the first place, and why only after it got there, did
someone decide to raise a flag??

Judy >>

The way I understood it from what I read is that this was a dairy cow and the
only reason it was slaughtered is because it was ill and stumbling around.  Now
that's what's really scary.  A sick cow such as this is referred to as a
"downer" cow and only 10 percent of downer cows that are slaughtered are tested
so, conceivably, this could be a much huger problem.  But really, how gross, to
pick a sick cow and purposely slaughter it and then have it sliced up and
rendered?  Yuk.

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human."  (Loren Eisely)
Cheryl - 30 Dec 2003 04:15 GMT
29 Dec 2003:

> << What I'd like to know, but will probably never find out, is how
> this cow got into the food chain in the first place, and why only
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> much huger problem.  But really, how gross, to pick a sick cow and
> purposely slaughter it and then have it sliced up and rendered?  Yuk.

And according to the USDA and their "emotional" response to BSE they issued
this FAQ

What actions are taken at USDA-inspected slaughter establishments to ensure
that cattle with neurological disease would not enter the human food
supply?

All cattle presented for slaughter in the United States are inspected
before slaughter by FSIS for signs of CNS impairment. Any animals
exhibiting neurologic signs during this inspection are condemned, and the
meat is not permitted for use as human food. The brains from these animals
are submitted to USDA's National Veterinary Services Laboratories for
analysis.  
http://aphisweb.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/issues/bse/bse-overview.html

Signature

Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

Meghan Noecker - 30 Dec 2003 04:24 GMT
>What actions are taken at USDA-inspected slaughter establishments to ensure
>that cattle with neurological disease would not enter the human food
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>analysis.  
>http://aphisweb.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/issues/bse/bse-overview.html

Then how do they explain downer cows being used in Western Washington?
They can't walk. How can they be approved?

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Cheryl - 30 Dec 2003 04:26 GMT
>>What actions are taken at USDA-inspected slaughter establishments to
>>ensure that cattle with neurological disease would not enter the human
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Then how do they explain downer cows being used in Western Washington?
> They can't walk. How can they be approved?

Exactly.


Signature

Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

GAUBSTER2 - 30 Dec 2003 16:11 GMT
>> Then how do they explain downer cows being used in Western Washington?
>> They can't walk. How can they be approved?
>
>Exactly.

Um, maybe somebody didn't follow the rules?  Just because a piece of paper says
something, doesn't mean it is always followed.  North Korea Nuke Treaty
advocated by Clinton?  Your local speed limits?
Gothmog - 31 Dec 2003 02:42 GMT
>>> Then how do they explain downer cows being used in Western Washington?
>>> They can't walk. How can they be approved?

Until today, there was no rule to prohibit downer cows from being
processed for human consumption.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/7601342.htm

>>Exactly.
>
>Um, maybe somebody didn't follow the rules?  Just because a piece of paper says
>something, doesn't mean it is always followed.  North Korea Nuke Treaty
>advocated by Clinton?  Your local speed limits?

The Bush Administration are not interested in safe beef, but have been
forced to take some of the measures long implemented in Europe to
protect beef industry profits.

Too little, too late, but that seems to be the motto of the Bush
administration.
dgk - 31 Dec 2003 15:27 GMT
>>>> Then how do they explain downer cows being used in Western Washington?
>>>> They can't walk. How can they be approved?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>Too little, too late, but that seems to be the motto of the Bush
>administration.

I'm completely reassured by the statements of the Bush regime
concerning the safety of our dead animal supply. After all, they
wouldn't lie to us. Well, maybe about the air around the World Trade
Center being healthy to breathe. And maybe about needing to start a
war. I'm sure they aren't just worried about corporate profits though.
GAUBSTER2 - 31 Dec 2003 18:16 GMT
>From: dgk

>I'm completely reassured by the statements of the Bush regime
>concerning the safety of our dead animal supply. After all, they
>wouldn't lie to us.

You people will politicize anything, won't you!  At least he's not having sex
w/ interns that are young enough to be his daughter!

>And maybe about needing to start a
>war.

Do you even know what happened on September 11th, 2001??
Cathy Friedmann - 31 Dec 2003 19:28 GMT
> >From: dgk
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You people will politicize anything, won't you!  At least he's not having sex
> w/ interns that are young enough to be his daughter!

Hmmmm... talk about politicizing something - in this case a person's
personal/sex life - sleazy though it may've been.  That was Hillary's
business, not mine & the rest of the country's, AFAIWC.

> >And maybe about needing to start a
> >war.
>
> Do you even know what happened on September 11th, 2001??

Ummmm...  wrong guy (evil & destructive though he was), wrong country/ies.
Try Bin Laden & cronies.  It never ceases to amaze me how many people GWB
has managed to convince that Saddam H. was the cause of 9-11.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
dgk - 31 Dec 2003 20:56 GMT
>> >From: dgk
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Cathy

He knows better. Some don't, but he does. We can now blame anything
Bush does on 9/11. I think Bush knew about it and allowed it to
happen. Just like Saint Reagan made a deal with Iran to keep Americans
hostage. Both committed treason.
GAUBSTER2 - 31 Dec 2003 22:05 GMT
>From: dgk sonicechoes-spamless@hot-nospamp-mail.com

>He knows better. Some don't, but he does. We can now blame anything
>Bush does on 9/11. I think Bush knew about it and allowed it to
>happen. Just like Saint Reagan made a deal with Iran to keep Americans
>hostage. Both committed treason.

Welcome to trollville.  You are one of the mentally insane that need to be
locked up to keep you away from the normal people.  I'd like to see you point
to some evidence to back up your mental illness.
GAUBSTER2 - 31 Dec 2003 22:03 GMT
>From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net

>> >I'm completely reassured by the statements of the Bush regime
>> >concerning the safety of our dead animal supply. After all, they
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>personal/sex life - sleazy though it may've been.  That was Hillary's
>business, not mine & the rest of the country's, AFAIWC.

Nice talking points, but they don't hold up to common sense.  It IS "our"
business when the person who is the Commander-in-Chief is busy fiddling (or
diddling in his case) while Rome burns.  Clinton's "indiscretions" were much
more harmful because he was the President of the US.  Just because Hillary puts
up w/ bad behavior doesn't mean the rest of us have to.  It wasn't even about
that to begin with...it was about him perjuring himself.  Not to mention that
it isn't his "personal life" when it is done on "company time".  In this case,
IN the Oval Office.

>> >And maybe about needing to start a
>> >war.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Try Bin Laden & cronies.  It never ceases to amaze me how many people GWB
>has managed to convince that Saddam H. was the cause of 9-11.

Oh boy.  Some of you have real short and selective memories.  President Bush
has NEVER STATED that Saddam was the "cause" of 9/11.  Please provide something
that states otherwise.  Early on, one of the myriad of reasons the US listed
was a "regime change" in Iraq.  Forget about that one?  Not to mention the fact
that there is a lot of evidence that the bad guys had a willing ally in Iraq.
Are you forgetting Salmon Pak?  (The terrorist training camp IN Iraq where
Al-Qaeda practiced their hijacking in the fuselage of a plane.)  How about the
WMD's that Saddam used on his own people that nobody could get an accounting of
because Clinton allowed inspectors to leave Iraq?  If you don't think that
foreign governments that hate Israel and the US (North Korea, Syria, Iran, and
a bunch of others) aren't sympethetic to terrorists organizations and are
willing to help them out, then you are extremely naive and must deny that evil
exists.

Is liberating Iraq a bad thing?  Wars sometimes have to be fought to overcome
evil and to free the good guys.  Not all war is bad.  How about WWII for
example?
-L. - 01 Jan 2004 09:33 GMT
> >From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net
>  
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> business when the person who is the Commander-in-Chief is busy fiddling (or
> diddling in his case) while Rome burns.

No, it's his own buisiness, and that of his wife.  End of story.
<snip>

> >> >And maybe about needing to start a
> >> >war.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Oh boy.  Some of you have real short and selective memories

No, you're just another sad example of the ignorant sheeple that
follow this clod.

Suck on this, if you even have the vocabulary to understand it, which
I seriosuly doubt:

The Other Lies of George Bush
by David Corn

George W. Bush is a liar. He has lied large and small, directly and by
omission. His Iraq lies have loomed largest. In the run-up to the
invasion, Bush based his case for war on a variety of unfounded claims
that extended far beyond his controversial uranium-from-Niger
assertion. He maintained that Saddam Hussein possessed "a massive
stockpile" of unconventional weapons and was directly "dealing" with
Al Qaeda--two suppositions unsupported then (or now) by the available
evidence. He said the International Atomic Energy Agency had produced
a report in 1998 noting that Iraq was six months from developing a
nuclear weapon; no such report existed (and the IAEA had actually
reported then that there was no indication Iraq had the ability to
produce weapons-grade material). Bush asserted that Iraq was
"harboring a terrorist network, headed by a senior Al Qaeda terrorist
planner"; US intelligence officials told reporters this terrorist was
operating ouside of Al Qaeda control. And two days before launching
the war, Bush said, "Intelligence gathered by this and other
governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess
and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." Yet former
deputy CIA director Richard Kerr, who is conducting a review of the
prewar intelligence, has said that intelligence was full of qualifiers
and caveats, and based on circumstantial and inferential evidence.
That is, it was not no-doubt stuff. And after the major fighting was
done, Bush declared, "We found the weapons of mass destruction." But
he could only point to two tractor-trailers that the CIA and the
Defense Intelligence Agency had concluded were mobile bioweapons labs.
Other experts--including the DIA's own engineering experts--disagreed
with this finding.

But Bush's truth-defying crusade for war did not mark a shift for him.
Throughout his campaign for the presidency and his years in the White
House, Bush has mugged the truth in many other areas to advance his
agenda. Lying has been one of the essential tools of his presidency.
To call the forty-third President of the United States a prevaricator
is not an exercise of opinion, not an inflammatory talk-radio device.
Rather, it is backed up by an all-too-extensive record of self-serving
falsifications. While politicians are often derided as liars, this
charge should be particularly stinging for Bush. During the campaign
of 2000, he pitched himself as a candidate who could "restore" honor
and integrity to an Oval Office stained by the misdeeds and falsehoods
of his predecessor. To brand Bush a liar is to negate what he and his
supporters declared was his most basic and most important
qualification for the job.

His claims about the war in Iraq have led more of his foes and more
pundits to accuse him of lying to the public. The list of his
misrepresentations, though, is far longer than the lengthy list of
dubious statements Bush employed--and keeps on employing--to justify
his invasion and occupation of Iraq. Here then is a partial--a quite
partial--account of the other lies of George W. Bush.

Tax Cuts

Bush's crusade for tax cuts is the domestic policy matter that has
spawned the most misrepresentations from his camp. On the 2000
campaign trail, he sold his success as a "tax-cutting person" by
hailing cuts he passed in Texas while governor. But Bush did not tell
the full story of his 1997 tax plan. His proposal called for cutting
property taxes. But what he didn't mention is that it also included an
attempt to boost the sales tax and to implement a new business tax.
Nor did he note that his full package had not been accepted by the
state legislature. Instead, the lawmakers passed a $1 billion
reduction in property taxes. And these tax cuts turned out to be a
sham. After they kicked in, school districts across the state boosted
local tax rates to compensate for the loss of revenue. A 1999 Dallas
Morning News analysis found that "many [taxpayers] are still paying as
much as they did in 1997, or more." Republican Lieutenant Governor
Rick Perry called the cuts "rather illusory."

One of Bush's biggest tax-cut whoppers came when he stated, during the
presidential campaign, "The vast majority of my [proposed] tax cuts go
to the bottom end of the spectrum." That estimate was wildly at odds
with analyses of where the money would really go. A report by Citizens
for Tax Justice, a liberal outfit that specializes in distribution
analysis, figured that 42.6 percent of Bush's $1.6 trillion tax
package would end up in the pockets of the top 1 percent of earners.
The lowest 60 percent would net 12.6 percent. The New York Times, the
Los Angeles Times, ABC News and NBC News all reported that Bush's
package produced the results CTJ calculated.

To deal with the criticism that his plan was a boon for millionaires,
Bush devised an imaginary friend--a mythical single waitress who was
supporting two children on an income of $22,000, and he talked about
her often. He said he wanted to remove the tax-code barriers that kept
this waitress from reaching the middle class, and he insisted that if
his tax cuts were passed, "she will pay no income taxes at all." But
when Time asked the accounting firm of Deloitte & Touche to analyze
precisely how Bush's waitress-mom would be affected by his tax
package, the firm reported that she would not see any benefit because
she already had no income-tax liability.

As he sold his tax cuts from the White House, Bush maintained in 2001
that with his plan, "the greatest percentage of tax relief goes to the
people at the bottom end of the ladder." This was
trickery--technically true only because low-income earners pay so
little income tax to begin with. As the Center on Budget and Policy
Priorities put it, "a two-parent family of four with income of $26,000
would indeed have its income taxes eliminated under the Bush plan,
which is being portrayed as a 100 percent reduction in taxes." But
here was the punch line: The family owed only $20 in income taxes
under the existing law. Its overall tax bill (including payroll and
excise taxes), though, was $2,500. So that twenty bucks represented
less than 1 percent of its tax burden. Bush's "greatest percentage"
line was meaningless in the real world, where people paid their bills
with money, not percentages.

Bush also claimed his tax plan--by eliminating the estate tax, at a
cost of $300 billion--would "keep family farms in the family." But, as
the New York Times reported, farm-industry experts could not point to
a single case of a family losing a farm because of estate taxes. Asked
about this, White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said, "If you
abolish the death tax, people won't have to hire all those planners to
help them keep the land that's rightfully theirs." Caught in a $300
billion lie, the White House was now saying the reason to abolish the
tax--a move that would be a blessing to the richest 2 percent of
Americans--was to spare farmers the pain in the a.s of estate
planning. Bush's lies did not hinder him. They helped him win the
first tax-cut fight--and, then, the tax-cut battle of 2003. When his
second set of supersized tax cuts was assailed for being tilted toward
the rich, he claimed, "Ninety-two million Americans will keep an
average of $1,083 more of their own money." The Tax Policy Center of
the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute found that, contrary
to Bush's assertion, nearly 80 percent of tax filers would receive
less than $1,083, and almost half would pocket less than $100. The
truly average taxpayers--those in the middle of the income
range--would receive $265. Bush was using the word "average" in a
flimflam fashion. To concoct the misleading $1,083 figure, the
Administration took the large dollar amounts high-income taxpayers
would receive and added that to the modest, small or nonexistent
reductions other taxpayers would get--and then used this total to
calculate an average gain. His claim was akin to saying that if a
street had nine households led by unemployed individuals but one with
an earner making a million dollars, the average income of the families
on the block would be $100,000. The radical Wall Street Journal
reported, "Overall, the gains from the taxes are weighted toward
upper-income taxpayers."


The Environment

One of Bush's first PR slip-ups as President came when his EPA
announced that it would withdraw a new standard for arsenic in
drinking water that had been developed during the Clinton years. Bush
defended this move by claiming that the new standard had been
irresponsibly rushed through: "At the very last minute my predecessor
made a decision, and we pulled back his decision so that we can make a
decision based upon sound science and what's realistic." And his EPA
administrator, Christine Todd Whitman, said the standard had not been
based on the "best available science." This was a harsh charge. And
untrue.

The new arsenic standard was no quickie job unattached to reasonable
scientific findings. The EPA had worked for a decade on establishing
the new, 10-parts-per-billion standard. Congress had directed the
agency to establish a new standard, and it had authorized $2.5 million
a year for studies from 1997 through 2000. A 1999 study by the
National Academy of Sciences (NAS) had concluded that the existing
50-ppb standard "could easily" result in a 1-in-100 cancer risk and
had recommended that acceptable levels be lowered "as promptly as
possible." EPA policy-makers had thought that a 3-ppb standard would
have been justified by the science, yet they took cost considerations
into account and went for the less stringent 10 ppb.

Bush's arsenic move appeared to have been based upon a political
calculation--even though Bush, as a candidate, had said he would not
decide key policy matters on the basis of politics. But in his book
The Right Man, David Frum, a former Bush economic speechwriter,
reported that Karl Rove, Bush's chief political adviser, had
pressed
for reversal" of the arsenic standard in an attempt to win votes in
New Mexico, one of a few states that have high naturally occurring
levels of arsenic and that would face higher costs in meeting the new
standard.

Several months after the EPA suspended the standard, a new NAS study
concluded that the 10-ppb standard was indeed scientifically justified
and possibly not tight enough. After that, the Administration decided
that the original 10 ppb was exactly the right level for a workable
rule, even though the latest in "best available science" now suggested
that the 10-ppb level might not adequately safeguard water drinkers.

The arsenic screw-up was one of the few lies for which Bush took a
hit. On the matter of global warming, he managed to lie his way
through a controversy more deftly. Months into his presidency, Bush
declared that he was opposed to the Kyoto Protocol, the 1997 global
warming accord. To defend his retreat from the treaty, he cited "the
incomplete state of scientific knowledge." This was a misleading
argument, for the scientific consensus was rather firm. The
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), an international
body of thousands of scientists assembled by the UN and the World
Meteorological Organization, held that global temperatures were
dramatically on the rise and that this increase was, to an unspecified
degree, a result of human-induced emissions.

In early June 2001 the NAS released a report Bush had requested, and
it concluded global warming was under way and "most likely due to
human activities." Rather than accept the analysis it had
commissioned, the Bush White House countered with duplicity. Press
secretary Fleischer maintained that the report "concludes that the
Earth is warming. But it is inconclusive on why--whether it's man-made
causes or whether it's natural causes." That was not spinning. That
was prevaricating. The study blamed "human activities" while noting
that "natural variability" might be a contributing factor too.

Still, the Bush White House wanted to make it seem as if Bush did take
the issue seriously. So on June 11, he delivered a speech on global
warming and pledged to craft an alternative to Kyoto that would
"reduce" emissions. The following February he unveiled his plan. "Our
immediate goal," Bush said, "is to reduce America's greenhouse-gas
emissions relative to the size of our economy."

Relative to the size of our economy? This was a ruse. Since the US
economy is generally growing, this meant emissions could continue to
rise, as long as the rate of increase was below the rate of economic
growth. The other industrialized nations, with the Kyoto accord, were
calling for reductions below 1990 levels. Bush was pushing for slower
increases above 2000 levels. Bush's promise to lower emissions had
turned out to be no more than hot air.


The Other Lies of George Bush

September 11

As many Americans and others yearned to make sense of the evil attacks
of September 11, Bush elected to share with the public a deceptively
simplistic explanation of this catastrophe. Repeatedly, he said that
the United States had been struck because of its love of freedom.
"America was targeted for attack," he maintained, "because we're the
brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world." This was
shallow analysis, a comic-book interpretation of the event that
covered up complexities and denied Americans information crucial for
developing a full understanding of the attacks. In the view Bush
furnished, Osama bin Laden was a would-be conqueror of the world, a
man motivated solely by irrational evil, who killed for the purpose of
destroying freedom.

But as the State Department's own terrorism experts--as well as
nongovernment experts--noted, bin Laden was motivated by a specific
geostrategic and theological aim: to chase the United States out of
the Middle East in order to ease the way for a fundamentalist takeover
of the region. Peter Bergen, a former CNN producer and the first
journalist to arrange a television interview with bin Laden, observes
in his book Holy War, Inc., "What [bin Laden] condemns the United
States for is simple: its policies in the Middle East." Rather than
acknowledge the realities of bin Laden's war on America, Bush
attempted to create and perpetuate a war-on-freedom myth.

In the aftermath of 9/11, Bush was disingenuous on other fronts. Days
after the attack, he asserted, "No one could have conceivably imagined
suicide bombers burrowing into our society and then emerging all in
the same day to fly their aircraft--fly US aircraft--into buildings
full of innocent people." His aides echoed this sentiment for months.
They were wrong. Such a scenario had been imagined and feared by
terrorism experts. And plots of this sort had previously been
uncovered and thwarted by security services in other nations--in
operations known to US officials. According to the 9/11 inquiry
conducted by the House and Senate intelligence committees, the US
intelligence establishment had received numerous reports that bin
Laden and other terrorists were interested in mounting 9/11-like
strikes against the United States.

Fourteen months after the attack, Bush said, "We must uncover every
detail and learn every lesson of September the 11th." But his actions
belied this rhetoric. His White House refused to turn over information
to the intelligence committees about a pre-9/11 intelligence briefing
he had seen, and the Bush Administration would not allow the
committees to tell the public what intelligence warnings Bush had
received before September 11. More famously, Bush would not declassify
the twenty-seven-page portion of the committees' final report that
concerned connections between the 9/11 hijackers and Saudi Arabia. And
following September 11, Bush repeatedly maintained that his
Administration was doing everything possible to secure the nation. But
that was not true. The Administration did not move--and has not
moved--quickly to address gaping security concerns, including
vulnerabilities at chemical plants and ports and a huge shortfall in
resources for first responders [see Corn, "Homeland Insecurity,"
September 22].

It did not start with Iraq. Bush has been lying throughout the
presidency. He claimed he had not gotten to know disgraced Enron chief
Ken Lay until after the 1994 Texas gubernatorial election. But Lay had
been one of Bush's larger contributors during that election and
had--according to Lay himself--been friends with Bush for years before
it. In June 2001, Bush said, "We're not going to deploy a [missile
defense] system that doesn't work." But then he ordered the deployment
of a system that was not yet operational. (A June 2003 General
Accounting Office study noted, "Testing to date has provided only
limited data for determining whether the system will work as
intended.") His White House claimed that it was necessary to drill for
oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to "secure America's energy
needs." But the US Geological Survey noted that the amount of oil that
might be found there would cover up to slightly more than two years'
worth of oil consumption. Such a supply would hardly "secure" the
nation's needs.

Speaking for his boss, Fleischer in 2002 said, "the President does, of
course, believe that younger workers...are going to receive no money
for their Social Security taxes." No money? That was not so. A
projected crunch will hit in four decades or so. But even when this
happens, the system will be able to pay an estimated 70 percent of
benefits--which is somewhat more than "no money." When Bush in August
2001 announced he would permit federal funding of stem-cell research
only for projects that used existing stem-cell lines--in a move to
placate social conservatives, who opposed this sort of research--he
said that there were sixty existing lines, and he asserted that his
decision "allows us to explore the promise and potential of stem-cell
research." Yet at the time--according to scientific experts in the
field and various media reports--there were closer to ten available
lines, not nearly enough to support a promising research effort.


The Other Lies of George Bush

Does Bush believe his own untruths? Did he truly consider a WMD-loaded
Saddam Hussein an imminent threat to the United States? Or was he
knowingly employing dramatic license because he wanted war for other
reasons? Did he really think the average middle-class taxpayer would
receive $1,083 from his second tax-cut plan? Or did he realize this
was a fuzzy number cooked up to make the package seem a better deal
than it was for middle- and low-income workers? Did he believe there
were enough stem-cell lines to support robust research? Or did he know
he had exaggerated the number of lines in order to avoid a politically
tough decision?
It's hard to tell. Bush's public statements do suggest he is a binary
thinker who views the world in black-and-white terms. You're either
for freedom or against it. With the United States or not. Tax cuts are
good--always. The more tax cuts the better--always. He's impatient
with nuances. Asked in 1999 to name something he wasn't good at, Bush
replied, "Sitting down and reading a 500-page book on public policy or
philosophy or something." Bush likes life to be clear-cut. And perhaps
that causes him to either bend the truth or see (and promote) a bent
version of reality. Observers can debate whether Bush considers his
embellishments and misrepresentations to be the honest-to-God truth or
whether he cynically hurls falsehoods to con the public. But believer
or deceiver--the result is the same.

With his misrepresentations and false assertions, Bush has
dramatically changed the nation and the world. Relying on deceptions,
he turned the United States into an occupying power. Using lies, he
pushed through tax cuts that will profoundly reshape the US budget for
years to come, most likely insuring a long stretch of deficits that
will make it difficult, perhaps impossible, for the federal government
to fund existing programs or contemplate new ones.

Does Bush lie more than his predecessors, more than his political
opponents? That's irrelevant. He's guiding the nation during difficult
and perhaps perilous times, in which a credible President is much in
need. Prosperity or economic decline? War or peace? Security or fear?
This country has a lot to deal with. Lies from the White House poison
the debates that must occur if Americans are going to confront and
overcome the challenges of this century at home and abroad.

Presidential lying, in fact, threatens the country. To render informed
and wise choices about the crucial and complicated controversies of
the day, people need truthful information. The President is generally
in a position to define and dominate a debate more than other
political players. And a lie from the White House--or a fib or a
misrepresentation or a fudged number--can go a long way toward
distorting the national discussion.

Bush campaigned for the presidency as the fellow who would bring
honesty back to the White House. During his first full day on the job,
while swearing in his White House staff, he reminded his cadre, "On a
mantelpiece in this great house is inscribed the prayer of John Adams,
that only the wise and honest may rule under this roof." But Adams's
prayer would once more go unanswered. There has been no restoration of
integrity. Bush's promise was a lie. The future of the United States
remains in the hands of a dishonest man."

Waiting patiently for a rebuttal,

-L.
GAUBSTER2 - 01 Jan 2004 17:29 GMT
>From: k3_e81@yahoo.com  (-L.)

>> Nice talking points, but they don't hold up to common sense.  It IS "our"
>> business when the person who is the Commander-in-Chief is busy fiddling (or
>> diddling in his case) while Rome burns.
>
>No, it's his own buisiness, and that of his wife.  End of story.
><snip>

I see...you're a Clinton Coolaid drinker!  Boy are you deluded!

>No, you're just another sad example of the ignorant sheeple that
>follow this clod.

I don't "follow" anybody.  There's plenty I disagree w/ the President on.
However, we are doing the right thing by killing the bad guys.  Apparently you
don't agree.  That's pretty sad.

>The Other Lies of George Bush
>by David Corn

Oh brother!  <rolling my eyes>  Corn is in the same league (Bush Basher/America
Hater) as Michael Moore, Al Franken, Howard Dean, Molly Ivins, The Clintons and
their cronies, etc.

Corn convienently leaves out a whole bunch of stuff.  If you want to be fair,
you have to provide both sides of the issue and let people decide for
themselves.

>Tax Cuts

Tax cuts always work.  See the Reagan years and see today!  Poor people don't
pay any taxes, yet they receive most of the government handouts.  When people
keep more of their own money, they tend to spend it.  That creates goods and
services that people want and make.  That leads to jobs.  That leads to more
taxes being paid.  The whole process repeats itself.  Apparently you would
advocate Socialism (which doesn't work) or Communism (which doesn't work).

>The Environment

Nobody likes the Kyoto treaty.  It's a piece to begin with.  It punishes the
US, while letting 3rd world countries pollute the Earth.  Read it and you'll
see what I mean (if you're intellectually honest).  The fact of the matter is
that the US has the cleanest air in the world.  Let the 3rd world countries
clean up their air first.  Go after the biggest offenders FIRST.  And we
shouldn't be expected to pay for it!  Nobody wants dirty air or water and we
don't settle for it either.

If you want to put Bush up against Clinton on the subject of lying--you're
going to lose that one everytime!  LOL

BTW, I didn't see any references or cites for Corn's lunatic writings!
Cathy Friedmann - 01 Jan 2004 18:53 GMT
> >From: k3_e81@yahoo.com  (-L.)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I see...you're a Clinton Coolaid drinker!  Boy are you deluded!

An opinion is an opinion.  Should *you* be called deluded because you think
it -was- everyone's business?  This was an issue that was heavily divided in
opinion: people either thought it was the whole country's/world's business
to know, or they thought it was a personal deal.  IMO (opinion, mind you!)
the media ran amok w/it & caused it to take precedence over issues that
*were* everyone's business.

> >No, you're just another sad example of the ignorant sheeple that
> >follow this clod.
>
> I don't "follow" anybody.  There's plenty I disagree w/ the President on.
> However, we are doing the right thing by killing the bad guys.  Apparently you
> don't agree.  That's pretty sad.

A person does not have to oppose ousting the rotten apples in order to
oppose the rationale used for beginning the war in Iraq.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
GAUBSTER2 - 02 Jan 2004 01:14 GMT
>From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net

>> >> Nice talking points, but they don't hold up to common sense.  It IS
>"our"
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>> I see...you're a Clinton Coolaid drinker!  Boy are you deluded!

>An opinion is an opinion.  Should *you* be called deluded because you think
>it -was- everyone's business?  This was an issue that was heavily divided in
>opinion: people either thought it was the whole country's/world's business
>to know, or they thought it was a personal deal.  IMO (opinion, mind you!)
>the media ran amok w/it & caused it to take precedence over issues that
>*were* everyone's business.

There was a time in society when right was right and wrong was wrong.  It's the
death of common sense in this country.  Now it depends on whether the
transgressor is on "your team" or not.  The same people that think it was
Clinton's "own business" are a lot of the same people calling for the heads of
CEO's that do things to the detriment of the Corporations they represent "on
their own time".  It was the frickin President of the United States.  Not some
local mayor or city councilman.  I hold my leaders to a higher standard.  The
same people that gave Clinton a pass are the same people that blame Bush for
things that are much more trivial.  If there was some intellectual honesty,
that would be one thing.  But there is not.

>A person does not have to oppose ousting the rotten apples in order to
>oppose the rationale used for beginning the war in Iraq.

Cathy, that's just riding the fence.  Perhaps you just can't bring yourself to
praise the results.  I'll give kudos to a person w/ bad intentions if the
results end up being favorable.  Conversely, I'll damn a person who had good
intentions if the results turn out tragic.  The people who "oppose the
rationale for going to war" don't seem to remember all of the reasons that were
given for going to war and the fact that the UN condoned it.  Look it up; it's
all there.
Cathy Friedmann - 02 Jan 2004 01:25 GMT
> >From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net
>  >A person does not have to oppose ousting the rotten apples in order to
> >oppose the rationale used for beginning the war in Iraq.
>
> Cathy, that's just riding the fence.

No, it isn't.  I did not believe the rationales that were presented for the
(IMO) excuse to invade Iraq.  I did not think it should be done w/out the
majority of our allies' agreement, & w/out UN sanctioning.  Etc., etc.  To
my mind, it stank of "We're big, & we're mighty, & we're gonna do what we
want to do, & to hell w/ the rest of you.  Arrogant.  I also got the
distinct impression that GWB was hell-bent on the war right from the get-go,
no matter how the preliminaries panned out.

>  Perhaps you just can't bring yourself to
> praise the results.

I can semi-praise them.  What's done is done, & that's that.  Great, that
the 3 top guys are gone from power; 2 of them ultra-gone.  Are they (U.S.
gov't.) going about things - esp. post-war - in a good, well thought-out,
way in general? - I have my doubts; big time.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
GAUBSTER2 - 02 Jan 2004 05:24 GMT
>From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net

> I did not believe the rationales that were presented for the
>(IMO) excuse to invade Iraq.  I did not think it should be done w/out the
>majority of our allies' agreement, & w/out UN sanctioning.  

The UN DID sanction it.  The security council voted unanimously in Dec 2002
IIRC.  As for our allies, if you are ONLY referring to France and Germany, then
you are being selective.  Both of those countries are socialist countries and
they had contracts w/ Saddam.  Of course, they didn't want anything to happen
to their precious contracts.  We had 60 nations helping enforce the UN
resolutions.  What more do you want?  Another 13 years and another 17
resolutions?

>To
>my mind, it stank of "We're big, & we're mighty, & we're gonna do what we
>want to do, & to hell w/ the rest of you.  Arrogant.  I also got the
>distinct impression that GWB was hell-bent on the war right from the get-go,
>no matter how the preliminaries panned out.

Sounds to me like you had your mind made up about him from the get-go.  Don't
mistake leadership w/ arrogance.  If the rest of the countries are in bed w/
Saddam or are just outright pussies, then we'll do what it takes to protect
ourselves from another 9/11.  Don't forget... the terrorists attacked US FIRST.
Cathy Friedmann - 02 Jan 2004 15:48 GMT
We're definitely not on the same page...  not sure if it's even the same
book.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

> >From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Saddam or are just outright pussies, then we'll do what it takes to protect
> ourselves from another 9/11.  Don't forget... the terrorists attacked US FIRST.
PawsForThought - 31 Dec 2003 22:40 GMT
>From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net

>> >From: dgk
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Cathy

It is amazing, isn't it?  Some people are very gullible I guess.

Lauren
________
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GAUBSTER2 - 01 Jan 2004 00:19 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

>It is amazing, isn't it?  Some people are very gullible I guess.

Would you rather Saddam was still in power?
Cathy Friedmann - 01 Jan 2004 01:09 GMT
> >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)
>
> >It is amazing, isn't it?  Some people are very gullible I guess.
>
> Would you rather Saddam was still in power?

I'm replying to your question here, not commenting on humanitarian aid to
Iran (later).  Of course I 'm glad that Saddam's no longer in power.  What
pisses me off is that Bush promoted the necessity of the war in Iraq on
finding WMD (which have yet to be found) - that Iraq was an *imminent*
threat, & that Saddam was behind 9-11 - which is a load of crap.  How stupid
does GWB think we are?  Apparently pretty stupid, since it appears that lots
of American's think Saddam/Iraq was responsible for 9-11.  Hello??  Wake
*up*, people!  When Saddam was captured, with the cry of "We got him!", all
I could think was, "Well, good.  I'm glad.  But how about Bin Laden & his
cohorts??!  What act(s) of terrorism might they be planning, in various &
sundry cells in various & sundry places, at this very moment?!"

Otoh, since the war is a done deal, I wish to hell the Americans & the U.S.
gov't. would be more sensitive about cultures other than our own, instead of
steamrollering as they seem to be doing, in their attempt to begin
reconstruction: they appear to manage to get a lot of (locals') backs up, in
the process.

Back to humanitarian aid for Iran's earthquake victims: I have no probs with
that, at all: I separate out humanitarian aid to the citizens of a country,
from the political probs.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
GAUBSTER2 - 01 Jan 2004 17:12 GMT
>From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net

>Back to humanitarian aid for Iran's earthquake victims: I have no probs with
>that, at all: I separate out humanitarian aid to the citizens of a country,
>from the political probs.

I agree w/ you on that one, Cathy.

>> Would you rather Saddam was still in power?

> Of course I 'm glad that Saddam's no longer in power.  What
>pisses me off is that Bush promoted the necessity of the war in Iraq on
>finding WMD (which have yet to be found) - that Iraq was an *imminent*
>threat, & that Saddam was behind 9-11 - which is a load of crap.

Bush NEVER said that Saddam was behind 9/11.  Please provide some reference
pointing out otherwise.  I'll repeat...he NEVER said that.  A couple of
things....Saddam was given something like 17 UN resolutions and over 12 years
to comply w/ your precious UN.  He did not.  The Gulf War was never "over"--it
was on hold...a "cease fire".  The UN voted for "serious consequences" for
Saddam and that's what he got.  Another thing...in a post 9/11 world, we can't
wait for the bad guys to pick up speed and attack us AGAIN.  We have to go
after the bad guys everywhere.  That includes regimes in countries like Iraq,
N. Korea, Libya, Iran, Syria, and others.  I'd rather we fight the war on
terrorism abroad and not here in the US.  Don't you agree?  As for WMD's we
HAVE found some.  If you're thinking we are going to go over a sand dune and
find thousands of missiles lined up neatly and loaded w/ biological, chemical,
or nuclear weapons, then you're crazy.  OTOH, we have found drones, mobile
weapons labs, chemical agents that have been dumped in the Euphrates River,
etc.  There is a lot of evidence that Iran and Syria had WMDs smuggled into
those countries as well.  However we did find the biggest WMD, Saddam cowering
in a hole in the ground.

It's the President's job to protect Americans.  Something this President
obviously takes much seriously than our previous President.

>When Saddam was captured, with the cry of "We got him!", all
>I could think was, "Well, good.  I'm glad.  But how about Bin Laden & his
>cohorts??!  What act(s) of terrorism might they be planning, in various &
>sundry cells in various & sundry places, at this very moment?!"

That's all you could think of?  Really?  The glass is half empty for you, isn't
it?  I was overjoyed and thought, Bid Laden is NEXT!  We'll eventually find
him.  It's much more difficult for him to plan something out in the open if
he's one of the most hunted animals on the planet.  Bush is fighting that war
on terrorism, so you should give him credit for that.  I sense that you
disagree, though?  I'll bet that when we do find bin Laden, you'll think "good,
but what about _____"....   :(
Cathy Friedmann - 01 Jan 2004 18:55 GMT
> >From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net
> >When Saddam was captured, with the cry of "We got him!", all
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> it?  I was overjoyed and thought, Bid Laden is NEXT!  We'll eventually find
> him.

Yeah.  And the more cynical are betting on next Sept. or Oct.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
GAUBSTER2 - 02 Jan 2004 01:07 GMT
>From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net

>> That's all you could think of?  Really?  The glass is half empty for you,
>isn't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Yeah.  And the more cynical are betting on next Sept. or Oct.

<chuckle>  Are you talking about an "Oct. Surprise"?  ;)

Seriously, does it matter WHEN we get him?
Cathy Friedmann - 02 Jan 2004 01:13 GMT
> >From: "Cathy Friedmann" clfr@adelphia.net
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Seriously, does it matter WHEN we get him?

Well, yeah, the sooner the better.

And yeah, (cynical hat back on), it might matter a lot to Bush.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
MacCandace - 03 Jan 2004 18:22 GMT
<< >Yeah.  And the more cynical are betting on next Sept. or Oct.

<chuckle>  Are you talking about an "Oct. Surprise"?  ;)

Seriously, does it matter WHEN we get him? >>

Uh, well, yeah.  The implication would be that if we could plan to get him in
October, we would know where he is all along and could get him before then.
That would be just, oh, slightly manipulative and devious to put off getting
him until right before the election.  Or are you such a hardcore Bush supporter
that you don't see that?

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human."  (Loren Eisely)
GAUBSTER2 - 03 Jan 2004 20:12 GMT
>From: maccandace@aol.comlitter  (MacCandace)

>Seriously, does it matter WHEN we get him? >>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>supporter
>that you don't see that?

I don't care WHEN we get him as long as we DO GET HIM!  That has nothing to do
w/ whom I support for President and everything to do w/ being an American.  (I
don't even care if it's 5 years from now....although the sooner, the better.)
Hagar - 01 Jan 2004 23:37 GMT
> >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)
>
> >It is amazing, isn't it?  Some people are very gullible I guess.
>
> Would you rather Saddam was still in power?

The Middle East was certainly safer, more stable, and more
prosperous before George WMD Bush took power than it is today.

Come to think of it, the same is true of the USA, isn't it?

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GAUBSTER2 - 02 Jan 2004 01:23 GMT
>From: Anonymous-Remailer@See.Comment.Header  (Hagar)

>> Would you rather Saddam was still in power?
>
>The Middle East was certainly safer, more stable, and more
>prosperous before George WMD Bush took power than it is today.
>
>Come to think of it, the same is true of the USA, isn't it?

You didn't answer the question, Mr. Troll.  Why are you hiding under
"anonymous", anyway?  Are you a terrorist?
Meghan Noecker - 02 Jan 2004 21:11 GMT
>Hmmmm... talk about politicizing something - in this case a person's
>personal/sex life - sleazy though it may've been.  That was Hillary's
>business, not mine & the rest of the country's, AFAIWC.

Actually, if he had just admitted to that, it would have blown over.
The problem was that he continued to lie, under oath. And that is
against the law.  What he did sexually was disgusting, but it was the
lying that made it our business.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
PawsForThought - 31 Dec 2003 22:39 GMT
>From: gaubster2@aol.com  (GAUBSTER2)

>>From: dgk
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>You people will politicize anything, won't you!  At least he's not having sex
>w/ interns that are young enough to be his daughter!

How about this?  Bush has announced plans to send aid to earthquakes sticken
Iran.  Translation:  He wants to tax you and me to support terrorists in the
country that took American diplomats hostage and killed 241 American servicemen
in Beirut.
Is there any greater moral obscenity than that?
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
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Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 01 Jan 2004 00:19 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

>How about this?  Bush has announced plans to send aid to earthquakes sticken
>Iran.  Translation:  He wants to tax you and me to support terrorists in the
>country that took American diplomats hostage and killed 241 American
>servicemen
>in Beirut.

Nice spin, but any one of the Demoncats out there running for President want to
raise taxes.  Bush, on the other hand, actually got passed 2 tax cuts.  Your
spin doesn't hold up to reality.

>Is there any greater moral obscenity than that?

Yeah, Clinton cheating on his wife, IN the oval office, with a girl young
enough to be his daughter.  BTW, there's a difference between what's "moral"
and a policy difference.  In this case, we are sending humanitarian aid to a
country who is one of the bad guys.  I guess that makes us pretty moral since
we don't let our differences get in the way of helping other human beings
devastated by a natural disaster.

Tell me again how sending humanitarian aid to a devastated, earthquake stricken
country is helping support terrorists?  He is actually fighting terrorists.  I
do wish we would go after known terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Islamic
Jihad more aggresively.  We know where they are.  You're really off your
rocker!
GAUBSTER2 - 31 Dec 2003 18:14 GMT
>From: Gothmog Gothmog@moria.org

>The Bush Administration are not interested in safe beef, but have been
>forced to take some of the measures long implemented in Europe to
>protect beef industry profits.

Yeah, it's all a big conspiracy, isn't it!

>Too little, too late, but that seems to be the motto of the Bush
>administration.

How come the Clinton administration didn't do something about it in the EIGHT
years they had?  If you're keeping score, it looks like it only took Bush less
than 3 years.
Cathy Friedmann - 31 Dec 2003 19:19 GMT
> >From: Gothmog Gothmog@moria.org
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> years they had?  If you're keeping score, it looks like it only took Bush less
> than 3 years.

The U.S. (in general - not each & every citizen, obviously), seems to think
it's immune - no matter the administration.  Look at 9-11.  No, not on our
own soil; nope, will never happen...  Until something is right here - not on
another continent, not even just over the border, does the gov't. say,
"Oops.  Maybe we're not immune after all."

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
Hagar - 02 Jan 2004 00:32 GMT
> >From: Gothmog Gothmog@moria.org
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> years they had?  If you're keeping score, it looks like it only took Bush less
> than 3 years.

Bush I:  4 years of war and recession.
Clinton: 8 years of unprecedented prosperity.
Bush II: 4 years of war and recession.

No amount of spin can change that...

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Yngver - 02 Jan 2004 03:16 GMT
>>The Bush Administration are not interested in safe beef, but have been
>>forced to take some of the measures long implemented in Europe to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>How come the Clinton administration didn't do something about it in the EIGHT
>years they had?

They did, but when Bush got in, he repealed it.
GAUBSTER2 - 02 Jan 2004 05:26 GMT
>From: yngver@aol.comnospam  (Yngver)

>>>The Bush Administration are not interested in safe beef, but have been
>>>forced to take some of the measures long implemented in Europe to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>They did, but when Bush got in, he repealed it.

Do you have any proof of this?  And why would he do it?  Because he wants us
all to get sick and die?  It's awfully hard to get votes that way.  Oh wait, it
must be another conspiracy!  Gimme a break!
Hagar - 05 Jan 2004 00:58 GMT
> >>The Bush Administration are not interested in safe beef, but have been
> >>forced to take some of the measures long implemented in Europe to
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> They did, but when Bush got in, he repealed it.

Bush is no fan of health and safety regulations.
They interfere with the profits of the companies that bought him.

He's too shortsighted to see that no amount of regulation would
have cost $17 billion, which is the amount the US beef industry
expects to lose due to the _lack_ of regulation.

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