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What a rip off!!

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afr - 24 Dec 2003 04:24 GMT
I finally heard from Veterinary Pet Insurance re. my cat's FLUTD claims.
The claims totaled about $1500 that included getting him unblocked and
follow-up care. I got back $300.00. The annual premium is $445. Not
exactly worth it!!!

Transparent thievery.
Luvskats00 - 24 Dec 2003 06:02 GMT
afr afr@efn.org writes

>I finally heard from Veterinary Pet Insurance re. my cat's FLUTD claims.
>The claims totaled about $1500 that included getting him unblocked and
>follow-up care. I got back $300.00. The annual premium is $445. Not
>exactly worth it!!!
>
>Transparent thievery.

Did you expect the service to be a duplicate of a human HMO? Hope not. .
Sherry - 24 Dec 2003 06:59 GMT
>afr afr@efn.org writes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Did you expect the service to be a duplicate of a human HMO? Hope not. .

Obviously not. Had it been the equivalent of a human HMO, the claim would have
been denied.

Sherry
afr - 24 Dec 2003 07:53 GMT
LOL. Actually, when this cat was a baby and had an intestinal virus, they
gave me back about 70 percent of the expenses. I guess when it gets to the
more serious illnesses, they scale back, which I think sucks.
I fail to see how reimbursement that is less than the cost of the policy
qualifies as "insurance"... except for the salaries of the vets who work
for VPI.

> >afr afr@efn.org writes
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Sherry
-L. - 24 Dec 2003 17:54 GMT
> LOL. Actually, when this cat was a baby and had an intestinal virus, they
> gave me back about 70 percent of the expenses. I guess when it gets to the
> more serious illnesses, they scale back, which I think sucks.
> I fail to see how reimbursement that is less than the cost of the policy
> qualifies as "insurance"... except for the salaries of the vets who work
> for VPI.

Aren't the coverages disclosed in advance?  Or do they pull the
"reasonable and customary" BS?  If so, ask them where you can get a
cat unblocked and treated for $300. If they can't produce the name of
a local vet, sue them for return of the difference in your premium.
Sounds fraudulent to me.

-L.
Caliban - 24 Dec 2003 18:28 GMT
> LOL. Actually, when this cat was a baby and had an intestinal virus, they
> gave me back about 70 percent of the expenses. I guess when it gets to the
> more serious illnesses, they scale back, which I think sucks.
> I fail to see how reimbursement that is less than the cost of the policy
> qualifies as "insurance"... except for the salaries of the vets who work
> for VPI.

I'm sorry your cat has been ill.

I am not sure I am understanding the above correctly, though. I'd be curious
about where you stand on the following.

As you may be aware, and statistically and actuarially speaking, health
insurance as a business is not viable unless (for some given period of time)
reimbursements for all clients are less than the premiums. Presumably each year
an insurance company makes more in premiums than it returns in reimbursements.
In such a scenario, some clients get more back in reimbursements than they paid
in premiums, but most do not. Those that do not instead get "peace of mind."

I happen to think "peace of  mind" is worth money. These days it seems many
people with insurance have a different view.

If an insurance company is set up so that no client ever gets back more in
reimbursements than he/she paid in premiums, something is fishy (albeit it's
probably legal, too). Surely your pet's insurance policy indicates instances
where the reimbursement may very well exceed the premium, no? What's the upper
limit of a claim, for example?

Of interest might be that an issue (July?) of Consumer Reports said a few months
ago that insurance plans for one's pets were not worth it. As others here have
suggested, one is better off stashing some money away each month in a
cat/dog/etc. vet bill savings account.

I think one problem with human health insurance today is that people think
they're supposed to get more in services than they pay annually in premiums.
People readily agree when an MD suggests or "requires" a test or procedure when
in fact the MD is trying to make money and the test or procedure won't make a
bit of difference to the patient's health. The insurer goes along with this,
because it justifies the insurer raising your rates next time around. Which
causes the client to want still more medical tests and procedures (after all,
he's paying all this money for premiums), which the MD is happy to prescribe
(it's his/her bread and butter), which causes rates to go up further, etc.

Right now, we seem to have a Ponzi scheme in place with U.S.health insurance. I
think what's happening with it is carrying over to people's view of (the
relatively new) pet  health insurance.

Direct-pay and/or high deductibles for all might encourage consumers to be
smarter about their choices.

This is a political post, and you have enough on your mind, so blow what I say
above off or comment as you like.

I am very interested in what is happening to health care in this country, and
this is why I am posting.

Two cents.
afr - 24 Dec 2003 21:35 GMT
> As you may be aware, and statistically and actuarially speaking, health
> insurance as a business is not viable unless (for some given period of time)
> reimbursements for all clients are less than the premiums. Presumably each year
> an insurance company makes more in premiums than it returns in reimbursements.
> In such a scenario, some clients get more back in reimbursements than they paid
> in premiums, but most do not. Those that do not instead get "peace of mind."

The maxiumum you can get for a blocked cat with flutd is about $530.00
My own undertsnading of health insurance is that most patients pay and
don't get sick, and that is how the profit is made.Maybe people who have
health insurance for cats and dogs have a higher percentage of patients
who do become ill, and thus the lower pay schedule. The tricky thing with
this company is if you send in six or more claims a year, your
premium doubles. I guess that is their way of insuring that profits exceed
expenditures.

> If an insurance company is set up so that no client ever gets back more in
> reimbursements than he/she paid in premiums, something is fishy (albeit it's
> probably legal, too). Surely your pet's insurance policy indicates instances
> where the reimbursement may very well exceed the premium, no? What's the upper
> limit of a claim, for example?

I'll have to look through it more carefully. I never looked at the
reimbursement schedule until he got sick. I suspect the cancer payment
schedule exceeds the premium.

> Of interest might be that an issue (July?) of Consumer Reports said a few months
> ago that insurance plans for one's pets were not worth it. As others here have
> suggested, one is better off stashing some money away each month in a
> cat/dog/etc. vet bill savings account.

Thanks for that reference. I'll take a look at that issue. Based on this
experience, I would concur.

> I think one problem with human health insurance today is that people think
> they're supposed to get more in services than they pay annually in premiums.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> he's paying all this money for premiums), which the MD is happy to prescribe
> (it's his/her bread and butter), which causes rates to go up further, etc.

I guess it depends on where one lives. Where I live, the doctors think
like insurance agents, and drag their feet when it comes to testing.

> This is a political post, and you have enough on your mind, so blow what I say
> above off or comment as you like.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Two cents.

I'm very interested in healthcare too. Thanks for posting.
---MIKE--- - 24 Dec 2003 23:40 GMT
I had pet insurance for my two cats for one year.  I stopped it three
years ago and opened up a savings account ($300/year) instead.  As far
as an MD's motive for ordering tests, I think it has more to do with
potential liability than profit.  Many of the tests that are ordered are
not performed by the MD that orders them.  The doctor just wants to make
sure all the bases are covered.

                 -MIKE
Caliban - 24 Dec 2003 23:53 GMT
> Thanks for that reference. I'll take a look at that issue. Based on this
> experience, I would concur.

Likewise, thanks for sharing your experience with an insurer. It's all very
interesting, though first and foremost again, I am sorry your little cat has
been sick.
Caliban - 25 Dec 2003 04:14 GMT
> Of interest might be that [the July issue of Consumer Reports]
> said that insurance plans for one's pets were not worth it.

I was fishing around and found an old post to this newsgroup that reproduced the
whole July, 2003 Consumer Reports article on vet care. Here's a link to it:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=pet+insurance+July+%22consumer+reports%22&hl=e
n&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=q0ueev40hr17ev82g5jracg46vmg90te9u%404ax.com&rnum=2

The article has a summary statement on the subject of pet insurance: "Pet
insurance won't necessarily save you money." So my statement above is overkill;
perhaps some pet insurance plans may be worth it.
afr - 25 Dec 2003 07:39 GMT
Thanks for posting this article. It looks to me like the spokesperson from
VIP is basing his rates on small or medium-sized towns. I now live in a
large metropolitan area, and I've been price-comparing lately: There are
no vets in my area that would fit into VIPs payment schedule.

As for "peace of mind," there is none, when your premiums exceed your
benefits. They can rationalize doing this, I suppopse, because there are
many other illnesses an animal could get that they would pay for within a
benefit year. However, our little friends tend
to be hit with one within a year. Nice racket they've got going.
They're going to lose their customer base if they continue with this
policy. I was a loyal customer when I lived in a smaller town, but I have
nothing good to say about their business practices now.

And besides their reimbursement policy, the communication between the
claims department and "customer service" is like a Three Stooges episode.
They were recently partially invested in by Iams. Me thinks they may be
having some difficulties.

ar

> > Of interest might be that [the July issue of Consumer Reports]
> > said that insurance plans for one's pets were not worth it.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> insurance won't necessarily save you money." So my statement above is overkill;
> perhaps some pet insurance plans may be worth it.
Dennis Carr - 24 Dec 2003 07:47 GMT
> I finally heard from Veterinary Pet Insurance re. my cat's FLUTD claims.
> The claims totaled about $1500 that included getting him unblocked and
> follow-up care. I got back $300.00. The annual premium is $445. Not
> exactly worth it!!!

Face it, you can save the money and just go to the vet for the unfortunate
stuff.

Signature

Dennis Carr - ke6isf@spamcop.net    | I may be out of my mind,
http://www.dennis.furtopia.org      | But I have more fun that way.
------------------------------------+-------------------------------

Laura R. - 24 Dec 2003 13:04 GMT
circa Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:47:37 -0800, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Dennis Carr (ke6isf@spamcop.net) said,

> > I finally heard from Veterinary Pet Insurance re. my cat's FLUTD claims.
> > The claims totaled about $1500 that included getting him unblocked and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Face it, you can save the money and just go to the vet for the unfortunate
> stuff.

And if you put it in a savings account, you even accrue interest on
it.

Laura
Signature

I am Dyslexia of Borg,
Your a.s will be laminated.

Dennis Carr - 24 Dec 2003 15:33 GMT
> circa Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:47:37 -0800, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Dennis Carr (ke6isf@spamcop.net) said,

>> Face it, you can save the money and just go to the vet for the
>> unfortunate stuff.
>>
> And if you put it in a savings account, you even accrue interest on it.

And there you have it, insurance advice and financial advice in one post! =^_^=

(Granted, savings accounts aren't exactly the best interest rate on the
market, but a money market account *might* not be the way to go here....)

Signature

Dennis Carr - ke6isf@spamcop.net    | I may be out of my mind,
http://www.dennis.furtopia.org      | But I have more fun that way.
------------------------------------+-------------------------------

Cathy Friedmann - 24 Dec 2003 16:10 GMT
> I finally heard from Veterinary Pet Insurance re. my cat's FLUTD claims.
> The claims totaled about $1500 that included getting him unblocked and
> follow-up care. I got back $300.00. The annual premium is $445. Not
> exactly worth it!!!
>
> Transparent thievery.

But that premium is for a year, right?  And the reimbursement you got back
was for one illness/claim?  Obviously, hoping no more big clainms will be
neeeded w/in the year's coverage, but I don't see how you can logically
expect to get back more than what the yearly premium costs, for any one
claim, unless that just happens to be the way the condition's covered.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
jwr4@webtv.net - 25 Dec 2003 06:54 GMT
You said it could not be expected to get back more than the yearly
premium. Isn't that the point of any insurance?

I pay a few hundred a year for home insurance. Surely I could expect
more than that back if the house burned down.

My father was recently in the hospital 3 days. The total bill was over
$5,000. His Medicare paid for all but about $800. His premiums are $40 a
month, which during the year adds up to much less than the $5,000 bill.

If insurance never paid out more than the annual premiums, what would be
the purpose of getting insurance?

JWR
afr - 25 Dec 2003 07:30 GMT
Yes, I think most insurance (that is an honorable) business does. It
operates on the assumption that most customers won't need it, so the
monies areavailable for people who do...kind of like a credit union.

But I'm getting the sense that this company doesn't operate that way.

ar
"I'm a Pisces fish, and the river runs though my soul."
                   G. Harrison, 2002

> You said it could not be expected to get back more than the yearly
> premium. Isn't that the point of any insurance?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> JWR
Dennis Carr - 25 Dec 2003 08:18 GMT
> Yes, I think most insurance (that is an honorable) business does. It
> operates on the assumption that most customers won't need it, so the
> monies areavailable for people who do...kind of like a credit union.
>
> But I'm getting the sense that this company doesn't operate that way.

The company is based out in Brea, California - up the road from me a bit.
They seem to believe in their product, but to be perfectly honest, it's
not worth it - quite frankly you can take the cost of their premiums and
like many others have said, stick it in savings somewhere and build
interest.

Now note too I said they're in California.  afr, I would suggest you
contact the California Department of Insurance (http://www.doi.ca.gov)
regarding this and get their advice - since they tout themselves as an
insurer, they should be under their jurisdiction.  Quite frankly, it seems
almost fraudulent IMO (IANAL, natch) the way they're doing this.

Signature

Dennis Carr - ke6isf@spamcop.net    | I may be out of my mind,
http://www.dennis.furtopia.org      | But I have more fun that way.
------------------------------------+-------------------------------

Sherry - 25 Dec 2003 15:14 GMT
>If insurance never paid out more than the annual premiums, what would be
>the purpose of getting insurance?
>
>JWR

On the other hand, if insurance always paid out more than the annual premiums,
how would they stay in business?
It just depends on how lucky you are. Barring any catastrophic illness, or
devastating loss of property, you can count on paying more out in premiums than
you colllect. It's just the way it works.

Sherry
Cathy Friedmann - 25 Dec 2003 20:57 GMT
> You said it could not be expected to get back more than the yearly
> premium. Isn't that the point of any insurance?

See my reply below - that's not what I said, exactly.

> I pay a few hundred a year for home insurance. Surely I could expect
> more than that back if the house burned down.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> JWR

I said that I don't think a person can expect (in all reality) to get back
more than one's yearly premium in *one* claim/illness, unless it just pans
out that way - depending on the illness, the charges, & what's covered.
Over the course of a year, sure one hopes to break even, or make out on the
deal.  Otoh, if you're paying over $400/year in premiums for a pet's
veterinary insurance, & one's pet is healthy, the vet bills for a year for
that pet aren't liable to be nearly as high as the premium.  Otoh, if
insurance companies all paid out more than they take in for each person's
policy, well....

As others suggested, it might be better to save up "x" amount /month or
paycheck - whatever, on one's own & put that money toward future vet bills.

Cathy

P.S.  Please don't put my name in subject headings. Thank you.
--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
afr - 25 Dec 2003 22:01 GMT
> > You said it could not be expected to get back more than the yearly
> > premium. Isn't that the point of any insurance?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> insurance companies all paid out more than they take in for each person's
> policy, well....

Perhaps I was naive. But when I invested in my pet's policy it was with
the thought toward having some assistance in case of an expensive
emergency. If procedures aren't well covered, why
bother even having insurance...or from the company's perspective, claiming
you provide it? To me, there's no honest logic in claiming that a provider
provides insurance if those emergencies aren't covered.People buy pet
insurance so that there is back-up during expensive emergencies. But when
the yearly premium is more than the expensive emergency, there is no back
up.

ava
Cathy Friedmann - 25 Dec 2003 22:10 GMT
> > > You said it could not be expected to get back more than the yearly
> > > premium. Isn't that the point of any insurance?
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> ava

IMO, it's pot luck.  Most years one wouldn't need it, but then finally some
year - or years, perhaps bam! - pet gets ill, vet bills are large, & one's
claim(s) may make it worthwhile - at least for that year.   Over the long
run, the insurance companies have to be the ones who make out, otherwise
they wouldn't be in business.  Look at car insurance (granted, necessary Vs.
optional) - how many thousands upon thousands upon thousands in premiums
have I paid over the last 30 or so years? And how much have I gotten back in
claims?  (Perhaps about 20% of what I've paid in over the years, is my
guess - mostly from one incident when a huge tree limb fell onto my
brand-new car in a heavy snowstorm!)

Cathy (who doesn't have vet insurance for her cats)

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
afr - 25 Dec 2003 23:42 GMT
> IMO, it's pot luck.  Most years one wouldn't need it, but then finally some
> year - or years, perhaps bam! - pet gets ill, vet bills are large, & one's
> claim(s) may make it worthwhile - at least for that year.

But in the case of this company, one's pet would have to have multiple
illnesses in one year.....I've never studied this...but doesn't that seem
a lot less likely than animals who have one expensive illness?

> Over the long
> run, the insurance companies have to be the ones who make out, otherwise
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> guess - mostly from one incident when a huge tree limb fell onto my
> brand-new car in a heavy snowstorm!)

Car isurance is a great analogy. You are covered for repairs, or close to
it. Isn't that what "insurance" means?

> Cathy (who doesn't have vet insurance for her cats)

Smart Cathy! :)

ava
Cathy Friedmann - 25 Dec 2003 23:56 GMT
> > IMO, it's pot luck.  Most years one wouldn't need it, but then finally some
> > year - or years, perhaps bam! - pet gets ill, vet bills are large, & one's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> illnesses in one year.....I've never studied this...but doesn't that seem
> a lot less likely than animals who have one expensive illness?

Yeah, it would seem so (less likely to have multiple illnesses/claims in one
year Vs. one biggy).

> > Over the long
> > run, the insurance companies have to be the ones who make out, otherwise
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Smart Cathy! :)

Well, I must've spent a good $5K on one late cat's vet bills over the course
of several years (I quit keeping tabs after it hit $1500) - she had some
chronic illnesses.  But by the time I realized that insurance might help
out, I didn't even bother, because of pre-existing conditions.

Cathy
--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

> ava
Cheryl - 26 Dec 2003 22:51 GMT
> Well, I must've spent a good $5K on one late cat's vet bills over the
> course of several years (I quit keeping tabs after it hit $1500) - she
> had some chronic illnesses.  But by the time I realized that insurance
> might help out, I didn't even bother, because of pre-existing
> conditions.

Same here, re Shadow (~$3000 in one year alone). After reading all of this
discussion, I'm going to cancel Shamrock's ins. and just put the money into
an account for all the cats. We have VPI also (Shamrock only, never got
around to adding Bonnie yet)

Signature

Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

Barb - 25 Dec 2003 17:30 GMT
I think it would be more fair if an insurance company gave you a dollar for
dollar accounting in advance as to how much they would pay for various
treatments.  I don't know if any of them do this.

My own (very good) health insurance has a $12 copay for each time you go to
see a doctor.  I can't remember the last time I only had to pay the $12.  It
is almost always $24.  They claim they did two different procedures, even
the eye doctor.  The primary care MD. does an EKG so an extra copay.  Next
it will be an extra copay for using a stethoscope!  The insurance company
goes along with this so it's not the doctors doing an illegal charge.

--
  Barb
  I can only please one person a day.
  Today is not your day.
  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Barb - 24 Dec 2003 16:54 GMT
Sounds like my previous dental insurance!

Why not put $10 a week away just for such an expense.  You'd have the $1500
next time in a little less than 3 years.  You could open a special bank
account but with the 1% interest they are paying, putting the money into a
tin can would serve you just as well.

--
  Barb
  I can only please one person a day.
  Today is not your day.
  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
 
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