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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / December 2003

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Dry food and drinking at the same time

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Cheryl - 13 Dec 2003 04:17 GMT
If a cat who will only eat dry food (good quality food) also drinks at the
same time, ie eats some then drinks, then eats more, then drinks... isn't
that close to the same as eating wet food, as far as their body knows?  
I've observed this with Bonnie and she even dribbles dry food into the
water while she eats/drinks.

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Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

Worldwide Candle Lighting in Memory of all Children, Dec 14, 2003 7pm in
all time zones
http://thecompassionatefriends.org/2003_WWCL/2003_wcl.htm
http://thecompassionatefriends.org/2003_WWCL/senres.htm

-this in memory of my Eric-

Dennis Carr - 13 Dec 2003 08:21 GMT
> If a cat who will only eat dry food (good quality food) also drinks at the
> same time, ie eats some then drinks, then eats more, then drinks... isn't
> that close to the same as eating wet food, as far as their body knows?  

Well, basically, no.

Whereas moist food is exactly that, your cat will eat some, which dries
his mouth out, so he drinks to wet his whistle, and repeats ad
not-hungrium.  

On the other hand, well....

> I've observed this with Bonnie and she even dribbles dry food into the
> water while she eats/drinks.

...this could also mean the kibble is too hard for them, and may be
paining them to eat.  Perhaps the cat has dental trouble?

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Cheryl - 13 Dec 2003 21:41 GMT
13 Dec 2003:

>> If a cat who will only eat dry food (good quality food) also drinks
>> at the same time, ie eats some then drinks, then eats more, then
>> drinks... isn't that close to the same as eating wet food, as far as
>> their body knows?  
>
> Well, basically, no.

I'd rather she eat canned but I'm not having luck converting her.  She's a
former feral who ate dry food that I put out for the stray gang last
winter.  I don't think she's ever really hunted. She was very young when I
trapped her. I was kinda hoping that by the way that she eats, that the
water mixes with her food in her tummy and makes the end result the same
as if she was eating canned.  

> ad not-hungrium.  

I've not heard that term before.  Are you making things up ;)

>> I've observed this with Bonnie and she even dribbles dry food into
>> the water while she eats/drinks.
>
> ...this could also mean the kibble is too hard for them, and may be
> paining them to eat.  Perhaps the cat has dental trouble?

Oh, I hope not; she's not even a year old yet.  When I described it this
way I meant that she will eat some dry food, then take a drink and most
likely she still has food in her mouth. She crunches it just fine. She goes
from dry to water, back to dry, back to water, etc throughout her meal.

Signature

Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

Worldwide Candle Lighting in Memory of all Children, Dec 14, 2003 7pm in
all time zones
http://thecompassionatefriends.org/2003_WWCL/2003_wcl.htm
http://thecompassionatefriends.org/2003_WWCL/senres.htm

-this in memory of my Eric-

Joe Canuck - 13 Dec 2003 14:32 GMT
> If a cat who will only eat dry food (good quality food) also drinks at the
> same time, ie eats some then drinks, then eats more, then drinks... isn't
> that close to the same as eating wet food, as far as their body knows?  
> I've observed this with Bonnie and she even dribbles dry food into the
> water while she eats/drinks.

I have read that it isn't quite the same as far as the body is concerned
but I'm still not convinced as water intake is water intake no matter
where it comes from.

As for what I've read... the theory was that cats who eat wet food
satisify most of their moisture requirements with the food and that most
of this moisture is excreted as urine rather than moisture in the feces.

On the other hand, cats who consume dry food are the opposite. They need
to drink to satisfy the moisture requirement, some may not drink enough.
The moisture is excreted more in the feces than it is in the urine.

I don't understand any more about it than this. I have observed a
different behavior in my own cat who consumes dry. She will settle down
for a meal of dry and then sometime afterwards will have a drink. She
drinks quite a lot during the day. The size of the clumps in the litter
box are evidence of that.

To me, ingestion of water no matter what the source results in the same
thing. I cannot see how there is what would amount to a water traffic
copy that would direct water that comes in the food more into the urine
and water from drinking into the urine. I would think the body deals
with water the same no matter where it comes from.

But then what do I know? I'm just a former trucker... former computer
guy... now working on developing yet another career.  :-)

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"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

Cheryl - 13 Dec 2003 21:51 GMT
13 Dec 2003:

> I have read that it isn't quite the same as far as the body is concerned
> but I'm still not convinced as water intake is water intake no matter
> where it comes from.

I've read that, too. I do know that when Shadow ate all canned food, he
rarely drank water. Shamrock eats mainly canned food now and rarely drinks
which sucks because after his dental, the vet said to put an enzyme into
his drinking water to help break down plaque.

> As for what I've read... the theory was that cats who eat wet food
> satisify most of their moisture requirements with the food and that most
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to drink to satisfy the moisture requirement, some may not drink enough.
> The moisture is excreted more in the feces than it is in the urine.

This is the part that scares me.  She's already had a bout of UTI and I do
know it is important to get her peeing more.  Her pee balls are kind of
small; I can tell the difference between hers and Shamrock (who pees like a
race horse).  Then again it's hard to distinguish any of their litter box
doings sometimes with Shadow coming in and spraying diarrhea all over the
box.  <sigh>  We go through a lot of litter.  lol

> I don't understand any more about it than this. I have observed a
> different behavior in my own cat who consumes dry. She will settle down
> for a meal of dry and then sometime afterwards will have a drink. She
> drinks quite a lot during the day. The size of the clumps in the litter
> box are evidence of that.

That's great to read.


Signature

Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

Worldwide Candle Lighting in Memory of all Children, Dec 14, 2003 7pm in
all time zones
http://thecompassionatefriends.org/2003_WWCL/2003_wcl.htm
http://thecompassionatefriends.org/2003_WWCL/senres.htm

-this in memory of my Eric-

Joe Canuck - 14 Dec 2003 01:33 GMT
> 13 Dec 2003:
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> That's great to read.
>  

I tried putting ice cubes in the Drinkwell for the first time yesterday.
I think she enjoyed the cold drink more than the entertainment of the
ice cubes floating around in the pool.

At one time I had two cats and it was my experience they both started
drinking more with the introduction of the fountain.

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"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

afr - 14 Dec 2003 16:58 GMT
I too have read that water consumed with dry food tends to go more to the
feces than to urine. Canned food tends to go to urine. If your cat hasn't
been blocked, I don't think you need to be concerned about this. But in my
cat's case, he was on a high-quality natural dry-food diet, and he drank
lots of water. He pooped more than he does now, but he blocked. He's also
quite sedentary since he's become an indoor cat, and I am nearly certain
that is part of the equation as he is overweight. :)

ava

> > 13 Dec 2003:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> "Its the bugs that keep it running."
>                                       -Joe Canuck
Paulette - 14 Dec 2003 20:53 GMT
another fact: a cat uses (loses) water in grooming; about as much as it
loses in urine.
Laura R. - 14 Dec 2003 04:00 GMT
circa 13 Dec 2003 21:51:30 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cheryl
(jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com) said,
> I've read that, too. I do know that when Shadow ate all canned food, he
> rarely drank water. Shamrock eats mainly canned food now and rarely drinks
> which sucks because after his dental, the vet said to put an enzyme into
> his drinking water to help break down plaque.

Can't you put the enzyme into his food?

Laura
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Cheryl - 14 Dec 2003 22:47 GMT
Dec 2003:

> circa 13 Dec 2003 21:51:30 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cheryl
> (jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com) said,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Laura

I'll have to ask; I don't see why not.  Thanks! :)  The other option on the
bottle says to spray a fine mist directly into the mouth. Not sure he'll
let me do that but I'll work on it.

Signature

Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

Laura R. - 14 Dec 2003 23:51 GMT
circa 14 Dec 2003 22:47:51 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cheryl
(jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com) said,
> > Can't you put the enzyme into his food?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> bottle says to spray a fine mist directly into the mouth. Not sure he'll
> let me do that but I'll work on it.

If you can get a cat to let you mist him in the mouth, let me know
how you managed it. ;-)

Laura
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Phil P. - 14 Dec 2003 05:05 GMT
> If a cat who will only eat dry food (good quality food) also drinks at the
> same time, ie eats some then drinks, then eats more, then drinks... isn't
> that close to the same as eating wet food, as far as their body knows?

Not as far as total water intake and water turnover are concerned.  Cats fed
dry food drink about 6x more water than cats fed canned food, but their
total water intake (from food and drinking) decreases when they're fed dry
food only.  Specifically, when fed dry food, the total water to dry matter
intake ratio (TH20/DM) varies from 2.0 to 2.8: 1 whereas on canned foods it
varies from 3. 0 to 5.7: 1 -- 150% to 200% higher when fed canned food with
a moisture content of 75% or more.  There have been >20 years of studies
that have confirmed and reconfirmed this fact.

The reason why cats become dehydrated so easily and quickly is because they
have a somewhat weak thirst drive - which they inherited from their
desert-dwelling ancestors - who evolved obtaining most (>90%) of their total
water requirement from their food (prey).  As a consequence, they never
developed a strong thirst drive and therefore can't make rapid and precise
changes in their water intake to compensate for changes in their hydration
status.

The higher water intake and water turnover achieved from canned food results
in more frequent urination -- which is actually the first line of defense in
preventing ascending infections of the urinary tract.  Frequent urination
inhibits bacterial colonization of the urinary tract by frequently washing
out bacteria and organisms from the bladder and urethra with fresh, sterile
urine. Another advantage of a higher water turnover and higher urine volume
is distention of the bladder and urethra -- which stretches and opens
mucosal folds and crevices where bacteria can become trapped.

The higher urine volume also dilutes the concentration of potentially
calculogenic solutes and crystalloids -- the frequent urination flushes the
solutes from the urinary tract before they can grow large enough to cause a
problem.

So as you can see, there's a little more to it.

Phil
Cheryl - 14 Dec 2003 22:52 GMT
> So as you can see, there's a little more to it.

Yeah.. wishful thinking. Didn't hurt to ask. I just can't get her to eat
canned food consistantly. She's a hardhead and would rather not eat at all
then eat canned food. She's been all day without food before just trying to
get her to eat it. And I've started slow with mixing with dry; a nugget or
two of cubed-shaped canned food in dry food, drizzle water on her dry,
Mixit (with both canned and dry and a combination), so many flavors, types
and brands....

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Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

Joe Canuck - 15 Dec 2003 00:28 GMT
>>So as you can see, there's a little more to it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Mixit (with both canned and dry and a combination), so many flavors, types
> and brands....

Mine will happily gobble up the wet food, but unfortunately her GI
doesn't agree with it despite a rather long go at it some months back.

As you know, a cat with consistently soupy stools is... er... well...
difficult.  :-)

I wish SD had a Chicken & Rice wet formula.

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"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

Cheryl - 15 Dec 2003 01:16 GMT
Dec 2003:

> I wish SD had a Chicken & Rice wet formula.

A chunky one!  Shamrock and Shadow both like Chicken and rice Petreet and
Pro Plan.  It is the consistency of it.  They've tried the Natural
\whatever\ and didn't like it.

Signature

Cheryl

"I am only one, but still I am one.  I cannot do everything, but still I
can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
- Helen Keller

afr - 15 Dec 2003 02:37 GMT
> Mine will happily gobble up the wet food, but unfortunately her GI
> doesn't agree with it despite a rather long go at it some months back.
>
> As you know, a cat with consistently soupy stools is... er... well...
> difficult.  :-)

I waa reluctant to bring up the topic, but as long as someone else has:

How can you tell the difference between loose stool and urine when you use
clumping litter? I put it in a baggie, but still can't tell. (I know this
is gross, buut I have to monitor him to help decide how frequently he
needs fluids.)

Thanks,

a.
Joe Canuck - 15 Dec 2003 03:56 GMT
>>Mine will happily gobble up the wet food, but unfortunately her GI
>>doesn't agree with it despite a rather long go at it some months back.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> a.

Smell. Unfortunately one has to put their nose to it for the sniff test.

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"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

PawsForThought - 15 Dec 2003 12:18 GMT
>From: afr afr@efn.org

>How can you tell the difference between loose stool and urine when you use
>clumping litter? I put it in a baggie, but still can't tell. (I know this
>is gross, buut I have to monitor him to help decide how frequently he
>needs fluids.)

If you can't tell with clumping litter, you might want to try a regular clay
un-clumping litter until your cat is back to health.

Lauren
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Laura R. - 21 Dec 2003 19:28 GMT
circa Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:37:12 -0800, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
afr (afr@efn.org) said,
> How can you tell the difference between loose stool and urine when you use
> clumping litter?

Stab it with the side of the scooper and get a peek inside. Much
better than smelling it. :-)

Laura
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Your a.s will be laminated.

GAUBSTER2 - 15 Dec 2003 15:55 GMT
>From: Joe Canuck Joe_Canuck@Canada.ca

>I wish SD had a Chicken & Rice wet formula.

I've heard a rumor that they are coming out w/ several new varieties of canned
food in the springtime.
 
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