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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / December 2003Is De-clawing a US thing?
I was just wondering but is de-clawing cats particular to the US? I live in the UK and until I subscribed to this newsgroup, I didn't even know that you COULD have your cat de-clawed! Needless to say, I am totally against the idea but I have never heard of anyone here who has ever come across a de-clawed cat. Jeannie >I was just wondering but is de-clawing cats particular to the US? I live in >the UK and until I subscribed to this newsgroup, I didn't even know that you >COULD have your cat de-clawed! Needless to say, I am totally against the >idea but I have never heard of anyone here who has ever come across a >de-clawed cat. Yes, I would say that declawing is primarily a U.S. and Canadian thing, rarely done in other countries. > I was just wondering but is de-clawing cats particular to the US? I live in > the UK and until I subscribed to this newsgroup, I didn't even know that you > COULD have your cat de-clawed! Needless to say, I am totally against the > idea but I have never heard of anyone here who has ever come across a > de-clawed cat. Well, you couldn't have it done in UK, because it's illegal here and in most civilised countries, apart from USA and Canada. I do have a declawed cat but she is an American rescue. Every vet here who sees her is fascinated and horrified by her paws. Helen A campaign should be started to get it banned everywhere - it's barbaric. Ken  SignatureUsing M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > I was just wondering but is de-clawing cats particular to the US? I live in > the UK and until I subscribed to this newsgroup, I didn't even know that you > COULD have your cat de-clawed! Needless to say, I am totally against the > idea but I have never heard of anyone here who has ever come across a > de-clawed cat. Unfortunately, yeah, mostly US and Canada. Nasty - cutting off the cat's toes. *sigh* Someday, hopefully, it will be illegal here. We also greatly differ on letting cats outside - it is becoming very much a no-no here to let your cat wander about outside as it is just too dangerous most places. Between the cars, coyotes, dogs, toxic crap, evil children, and mean possums/racoons, your cat is way more likely to not come home in the morning here than in the UK. Not to mention the fact that it is rapidly becoming illegal in many places (U.S.) to allow your cat to wander (city or township ordinances) unattended because they kill birds and aggravate your neighbors. Your neighbors might decide to shoot or poison your cat if they get mad enough about it. -- ~kaeli~ It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > Unfortunately, yeah, mostly US and Canada. Nasty - cutting off the cat's > toes. *sigh* Someday, hopefully, it will be illegal here. Maybe it's not yet illegal, but I know a few vets who outright refuse to do it for that reason, and more in our area outright discourage it. Unfortunately, I also know of a few vets who won't skip a beat at the request. It seems that it gets mixed reviews to this day. The majority of vets in our area acknowledge that declawing cats is potentially harmful (even just a front declaw). Here's hoping. SignatureDennis Carr - ke6isf@spamcop.net | I may be out of my mind, http://www.dennis.furtopia.org | But I have more fun that way. ------------------------------------+------------------------------- I had never heard about it either before this newsgroup. Declawing is illegal in Germany and I have never seen a declawed cat over here. Looking at my cats and how skillfully they use their claws for all kinds of stuff (defense, eating, climbing etc...) I think it is a very cruel practice. There is millions of cats over here that have their claws and there is no problems which in my opinion puts the whole procedure into doubt..... The biggest difference between here (US) and the UK, at least, is in the UK cats are permitted to roam freely. In the US there is increasing pressure to keep cats indoors exclusively. (To make it clear I do not declaw my cats.) Vets, adoption organizations and Municipalities put pressure on people to keep the cats indoors. Cats will be cats, they will scratch somewhere. Cats don't instinctively take to the scratching post like they do a litter box. I can understand how an owner faced with a cat that is ripping apart their home and not having the information they need might turn to declawing as a solution to the problem. The solution here isn't to let the cats roam freely unless one lives out in the country where there isn't the traffic, poisons or demon spawn children etc. The solution is to educate cat owners early on to the products available to encourage cats to scratch on appropriate things. I wish the vets and adoption organizations would pass out information on this as a matter of course. The vets could even make a buck off of it if they sold these products like some do food and flea control. I think if a cat owner were to get this information from a reliable source they would be more willing to try behavior modification. I know I was skeptical about things like the sticky tape and sprays until I heard from people here who have used them successfully. I had never heard about it either before this newsgroup. Declawing is illegal in Germany and I have never seen a declawed cat over here. Looking at my cats and how skillfully they use their claws for all kinds of stuff (defense, eating, climbing etc...) I think it is a very cruel practice. There is millions of cats over here that have their claws and there is no problems which in my opinion puts the whole procedure into doubt..... excuse me that should have read "if a cat owner was" The biggest difference between here (US) and the UK, at least, is in the UK cats are permitted to roam freely. In the US there is increasing pressure to keep cats indoors exclusively. (To make it clear I do not declaw my cats.) Vets, adoption organizations and Municipalities put pressure on people to keep the cats indoors. Cats will be cats, they will scratch somewhere. Cats don't instinctively take to the scratching post like they do a litter box. I can understand how an owner faced with a cat that is ripping apart their home and not having the information they need might turn to declawing as a solution to the problem. The solution here isn't to let the cats roam freely unless one lives out in the country where there isn't the traffic, poisons or demon spawn children etc. The solution is to educate cat owners early on to the products available to encourage cats to scratch on appropriate things. I wish the vets and adoption organizations would pass out information on this as a matter of course. The vets could even make a buck off of it if they sold these products like some do food and flea control. I think if a cat owner were to get this information from a reliable source they would be more willing to try behavior modification. I know I was skeptical about things like the sticky tape and sprays until I heard from people here who have used them successfully. I had never heard about it either before this newsgroup. Declawing is illegal in Germany and I have never seen a declawed cat over here. Looking at my cats and how skillfully they use their claws for all kinds of stuff (defense, eating, climbing etc...) I think it is a very cruel practice. There is millions of cats over here that have their claws and there is no problems which in my opinion puts the whole procedure into doubt..... > The biggest difference between here (US) and the UK, at least, is in the UK > cats are permitted to roam freely. In the US there is increasing pressure to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > home and not having the information they need might turn to declawing as a > solution to the problem. Hi Wendy , I don't see what the connection is between declawing and whether your cat goes in or out . It's sounds more like an excuse to me. Surely declawing has been around for many years before the big drive to keep cats inside . Some people do keep their cats inside in the UK , although they are in the minority and some outdoor cats will scratch inside. The more cats you have the more likely they will scratch inside. Alison > Hi Wendy , > I don't see what the connection is between declawing and whether your [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >cats you have the more likely they will scratch inside. > Alison An outdoor cat that is declawed is defenseless and unable to climb and escape its attackers. Anyone who has a declawed cat must never let it roam free outside. -mhd > The biggest difference between here (US) and the UK, at least, is in the UK > cats are permitted to roam freely. In the US there is increasing pressure to > keep cats indoors exclusively. (To make it clear I do not declaw my cats.) > Vets, adoption organizations and Municipalities put pressure on people to > keep the cats indoors. Cats will be cats, they will scratch somewhere. Cats > don't instinctively take to the scratching post like they do a litter box. I > can understand how an owner faced with a cat that is ripping apart their > home and not having the information they need might turn to declawing as a > solution to the problem. Hi Wendy , I don't see what the connection is between declawing and whether your cat goes in or out . It's sounds more like an excuse to me. Surely declawing has been around for many years before the big drive to keep cats inside . Some people do keep their cats inside in the UK , although they are in the minority and some outdoor cats will scratch inside. The more cats you have the more likely they will scratch inside. Alison I'm not defending the practice only trying to understand it. Try living with "fluffy the couch destroyer" for a year not letting him go outside at all and we'll talk again. > I don't see what the connection is between declawing and whether your > cat goes in or out . It's sounds more like an excuse to me. I think it's more that cats who go out tend to scratch outside, so the issue of the cat being destructive doesn't really come up. I could be completely off base there, though, as I've never had an outdoor cat, living near urban areas and all. IMO, any "reason" for declawing can be considered an excuse if all the proper information is given to the owners. > Surely > declawing has been around for many years before the big drive to keep > cats inside . I'm sure, and I know that when I was growing up (before the whole 'keep your cats in' thing), the vets recommended declawing indoor cats as a matter of course. It was just what we did. No one ever told us what the procedure actually was. Everyone just did it. The vets did, however, recommend against declawed cats going out. It was like, if the cat goes out, claws stay, if it stays in, claws go. I realize this is quite possibly a regional experience, so for the record and for the non-US folks, I live near Chicago, a large metropolitan city in Illinois, U.S. where most people who love their pets keep them close by, since cars, dogs, poisons, and other dangers kill many, many pets (and strays) every year. The vast majority of people keep their cats inside. Sadly enough, the vets around here still ask if you want your cat declawed when you sign up for desexing. > Some people do keep their cats inside in the UK , although they are > in the minority and some outdoor cats will scratch inside. The more > cats you have the more likely they will scratch inside. IME, I have an easier time training new cats to scratch appropriately because they follow the examples of the resident cats. I have only 3 though, so maybe this is true for rescuers and such with 10+ cats... Signature-- ~kaeli~ A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >From: i_hear_the_lampire_down@yahoo.com (Matt) >I had never heard about it either before this newsgroup. Declawing is >illegal in Germany and I have never seen a declawed cat over here. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >claws and there is no problems which in my opinion puts the whole >procedure into doubt..... The whole procedure is disgusting and sickening and I'm embarrassed to say that the U.S. would do such a cruel act to cats :( Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > I was just wondering but is de-clawing cats particular to the US? I live in > the UK and until I subscribed to this newsgroup, I didn't even know that you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jeannie How about sending over some of Lord Denning's DNA? We desperately need a few of his clones in our congress to teach our congressmen the meaning of the "spirit of the law".... Declawing technically violates the animal cruelty statutes of almost every state in the US..... Phil Millions of unborn human babies had been killed LEGALLY over the years here in the US and around the globe. And you're worried about some animals losing their paws so they can live and be pampered for the rest of their lives? Ray P.S. I just had to get that out of my chest. I won't read any more messages in this thread. >From: ray2003092003@yahoo.com (Ray Ban) >Millions of unborn human babies had been killed LEGALLY over the years >here in the US and around the globe. And you're worried about some [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >P.S. I just had to get that out of my chest. I won't read any more >messages in this thread. Gee, I'm so disappointed. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: ray2003092003@yahoo.com (Ray Ban) > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Gee, I'm so disappointed. Oh, you actually believed me? :- > Millions of unborn human babies had been killed LEGALLY over the years > here in the US and around the globe. Really chaps your a.s, doesn't it? BTW, those are fetuses, not babies. > And you're worried about some > animals losing their paws so they can live and be pampered for the > rest of their lives? Damn right. Try amputating YOUR fingers and then see if you can say that again with a straigh face... > Ray > > P.S. I just had to get that out of my chest. I won't read any more > messages in this thread. Oh, the "sling sh.t and run manuver". Typical. -L. > > Millions of unborn human babies had been killed LEGALLY over the years > > here in the US and around the globe. > > Really chaps your a.s, doesn't it? BTW, those are fetuses, not > babies. No, those are babies. > > And you're worried about some > > animals losing their paws so they can live and be pampered for the > > rest of their lives? > > Damn right. Try amputating YOUR fingers and then see if you can say > that again with a straigh face... Fortunately, I still have 5 fingers on 1 hand. However, the other arm is amputated. I still work 5 days a week. Typical. . > > BTW, those are fetuses, not > > babies. > > No, those are babies. Fetuses are actually parasites - because they feed off the host but contribute nothing. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against fetuses... I used to be one myself! In fact, that's how I started out.... According to Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary fetus: 1. The latter stages of the developing young of an animal within the uterus or within an egg. 2. In humans, the child in utero from the third month to birth. Prior to that time it is called an embryo. > k3_e81@yahoo.com (-L.) wrote in message news:<c7b085a.0312060017.7d363dea@posting.google.com>... > > ray2003092003@yahoo.com (Ray Ban) wrote in message news:<b3eea648.0312041658.31327e67@posting.google.com>... . > > BTW, those are fetuses, not > > babies. > > No, those are babies. Fetuses are actually parasites - because they feed off the host but contribute nothing. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against fetuses... I used to be one myself! In fact, that's how I started out.... > According to Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 2. In humans, the child in utero from the third month to birth. Prior to > that time it is called an embryo. ...which is still a parasite because it feeds off of the host while contributing nothing to the survival of the host. I don't mean this derogatorily... P. > > k3_e81@yahoo.com (-L.) wrote in message > news:<c7b085a.0312060017.7d363dea@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against fetuses... I used to be one > myself! In fact, that's how I started out.... > > k3_e81@yahoo.com (-L.) wrote in message > news:<c7b085a.0312060017.7d363dea@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Fetuses are actually parasites - because they feed off the host but > contribute nothing. Extra weight. Inconvenience. Hope for the future. Joy. Sometimes couples try to work our their marriage for the sake of the little ones. Tax benefit. You can say that cats also offer joy and all those sort of things. But they are parasites forever. But from my point of view, you really can't compare humans (in any stage of development) to cats. > > > k3_e81@yahoo.com (-L.) wrote in message > > news:<c7b085a.0312060017.7d363dea@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fetuses are actually parasites - because they feed off the host but > > contribute nothing. You can say that cats also offer joy and all those > sort of things. But they are parasites forever. Not so... The relationship between cats and humans is a form of mutualism - a type of symbiosis in which both species benefit from the relationship. P Fetuses are actually parasites - because they feed off the host but contribute nothing. Sounds more like a teenager ;o) > Fetuses are actually parasites - because they feed off the host but > contribute nothing. > > Sounds more like a teenager ;o) ...and a few of my employees.... LOL! When this topic came up a few years ago, I said "sometimes the little parasites grow up and become big parasites"... Wow! Did I get blasted! LOL! Phil De-clawing may sound barbaric, but it`s a hell-of-a-lot better than death. Do you know how many cats have led long lives because they have been taken to someone`s home and have lived and been cared for without tearing up their nice furniture? They don`t lose their paws, they lose their claws only. Mine are in-door cats. I don`t want to hear crap about that either. They are happy , healthy and well cared for indoors. They run through the house and romp around , then sleep on a king size bed with us. Really mis-treated . > > Millions of unborn human babies had been killed LEGALLY over the years > > here in the US and around the globe. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -L. >From: "Ted Thompson" ttsax@triad.rr.com >De-clawing may sound barbaric, but it`s a hell-of-a-lot better than death. >Do you know how many cats have led long lives because they have been taken [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >happy , healthy and well cared for indoors. They run through the house and >romp around , then sleep on a king size bed with us. Really mis-treated . Pretty darn sad that you felt your cats had to be mutilated to have a home. Wonder what all those people do that live in countries where there is no declawing of cats? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >Wonder what all those people do that live in countries where there is no >declawing of cats? >________ Yeah, that's the question I always ask. It's always ignored. No one wants to venture a guess how Europe manages to live with clawed cats just fine and don't seem to be a nation of shredded furniture and people. It's illegal, people. It's practically unheard of. What makes (some) in the US think they have to declaw to give a cat a home?? It's just crazy. Sherry > >Wonder what all those people do that live in countries where there is no > >declawing of cats? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Sherry Why wonder? Isn't it obvious? People who live in Europe with cats don't have nice enough furniture. They live in small boxes, drive small cars in small streets. I'll take my Yukon over a Mini anyday. >> Why wonder? Isn't it obvious? People who live in Europe with cats > don't have nice enough furniture. They live in small boxes, drive > small cars in small streets. I'll take my Yukon over a Mini anyday. ROTFL You have a point there. You've describe me to a T. I loved my Minis. I don't know what a Yukon is but I hate those 4 wheel drive things. Alison >ROTFL You have a point there. You've describe me to a T. > I loved my Minis. I don't know what a Yukon is but I hate those 4 >wheel drive things. > Alison LOL, that makes two of us Alison. BTW, what's a Mini? Sherry > LOL, that makes two of us Alison. > BTW, what's a Mini? > > Sherry It's a very small UK car , 1000cc. does about 45 or miles to the gallon and is easy to park, not suitable for tall people.<G> http://www.britishminiclub.co.uk/classic/ My last one was red one , born in 1988. I rehomed him about a year ago and he's still going strong. Alison > >> Why wonder? Isn't it obvious? People who live in Europe with cats > > don't have nice enough furniture. They live in small boxes, drive [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wheel drive things. > Alison 1 GMC Yukon = 8 Minis :- >> Yeah, that's the question I always ask. It's always ignored. No one wants to > venture a guess how Europe manages to live with clawed cats just fine and don't > seem to be a nation of shredded furniture and people. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sherry Hi Sherry , People get rid of their cats for all sorts of reasons. There are ignorant and indifferent cat owners who should never have had a cat in the first place , all over the world and I expect that cats are given up for rehoming because they scratch the furniture, just as they give them up for weeing on the carpet or waking them up in the night or for having kittens or fleas etc etc . Some English cats do scratch the furniture. People either train their cat to use a post, use an aversion or tolerate it. We had a pair of cats that scratched the sofa to bits and we brought an imitation leather one and it solved the problem. Also, more cats go out so they're less likely to scratch so much indoors. I'm half way through doing a survey and out of about 20 replies less than half said their cats scratched the furntiure , some did a little and some a lot , but they *all* said it didn't bother them and wasn't a problem. These are people who obviously care very much about their pets , not every one does and if declaw was permissable, I expect there would be a few people who would have it done. Alison "Alison" <alison@allofustoo.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message > Some English cats do scratch the furniture. People either train > their cat to use a post, use an aversion or tolerate it. We had a > pair of cats that scratched the sofa to bits and we brought an > imitation leather one and it solved the problem. Also, more cats go > out so they're less likely to scratch so much indoors. Cheeks had one chair she loved to go at. I bought a sisal "Superscratcher," the kind that is in a box and you rub catnip on the sisal and it falls through into the box? Put it by the chair and she goes straight to the scratcher even though it is horizontal. She hasn't bothered the chair since I got it. > > Cheeks had one chair she loved to go at. I bought a sisal > "Superscratcher," the kind that is in a box and you rub catnip on the > sisal and it falls through into the box? Put it by the chair and she > goes straight to the scratcher even though it is horizontal. She > hasn't bothered the chair since I got it. Hi Mary, That's good . I've not heard of the Superscratcher. .I think in the UK cats accessories are a bit limited in the pet stores but there's a wider range you can order on-line through pet Planet. Alison "Ted Thompson" ttsax@triad.rr.com claims >..Do you know how many cats have led long lives because they have been taken >to someone`s home and have lived and been cared for without tearing up their >nice furniture? They don`t lose their paws, they lose their claws only. I do believe as you do, somewhat...that declawing should be done as a last ditch procedure - after other things are tried..it should not be routine. The prospective caretaker should assume the burden of knowing the basics of cat behavior/care prior to adopting a cat. This includes knowing or learning about the alternatives available..such as scratching posts/training/softpaws. Sprays are available as a deterrent, also. From your statement(s) above, it appears that you are unaware of the actual procedure of declaw. Would you want a surgeon to amputate the first part of your fingers? > De-clawing may sound barbaric, but it`s a hell-of-a-lot better than death. That's debatable. I have seen declawed cats that have never ecovered from the surgery. I have seen declawed cats that turned into chronic inappropriate eliminators, who were then relinquished to shelters. I have seen declawed cats who suffered terrible regrowth problems that went unnoticed/undiagnosed until the cat was surrendered for euthanasia because of the problems it caused. Some fates are worse than death. IMo and IME, declawing is one of them. > Do you know how many cats have led long lives because they have been taken > to someone`s home and have lived and been cared for without tearing up their > nice furniture? Do you know how unnecessary declawing is? Millions of people live in harmony with intact cats. It's pretty ironic that only those in N. America think this practice is acceptable, in some cases, desirable, even. >They don`t lose their paws, they lose their claws only. No, they lose the last distal phalanx of their paw, which is equivalent to the last bone in your tip of your finger, from the joint to the tip. Educate yourself about declawing. It completely shirt thepressure points on the pad of the foot, as cats are digitrade and essentially walk on that distal phalanx. > Mine > are in-door cats. I don`t want to hear crap about that either. They are > happy , healthy and well cared for indoors. They run through the house and > romp around , then sleep on a king size bed with us. Really mis-treated . Your cats may develop problems in old age from declawing. Many develop arthitis and failure to bear weight issues. Others develop orthopedic issues which lead to other problems - the inability to walk properly or litterbox avoidance. Your worries are not over yet. I'll bet your vet never mentioned these types of complications to you, did s/he...? -L. > > De-clawing may sound barbaric, but it`s a hell-of-a-lot better than death. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > thepressure points on the pad of the foot, as cats are digitrade and > essentially walk on that distal phalanx. Um, that should read: "It completely shifts the pressure points on the pad of the foot, as cats are digitrade and essentially walk on that distal phalanx." Sheesh - I really neeed to proof read better! -L. > De-clawing may sound barbaric, but it`s a hell-of-a-lot better than death. > Do you know how many cats have led long lives because they have been taken [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > romp around , then sleep on a king size bed with us. Really mis-treated . > "- What would you have done if you lived in Europe and couldn't have your cat declawed? What was your situation , you automatrically had your cats declawed before you homed them or did you have it done after because they were scratching ? Alison I would never declaw an outdoor cat. My cats are all indoors. I just talked again to my vet and asked some questions about the procedure. You`re going to think what you want to think so I`ll just tell you this. The vet said that the cat is put to sleep for the procedure and that it isn`t painful to the animal. I would guess that if I lived in Europe I wouldn`t have it done and probably wouldn`t have cats. I would challenge you to find better cared for animals anywhere than mine. They are fed Wellness cat food and have all shots and heart medicines on time. It would be very nice if I had time to train them as you obviously do so I wouldn`t have to declaw, but I don`t. > > De-clawing may sound barbaric, but it`s a hell-of-a-lot better than > death. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > scratching ? > Alison > I would never declaw an outdoor cat. My cats are all indoors. I just talked > again to my vet and asked some questions about the procedure. You`re going > to think what you want to think so I`ll just tell you this. The vet said > that the cat is put to sleep for the procedure and that it isn`t painful to > the animal. Then why are pain med trials done with declaws? Because it is the most painful procedure there is, so they test meds with them. Try asking someone who doesn't have a stake in the procedure. Vets make money from declaws. Read some vet magazines - the ones they don't show to "ordinary" people. You'll see that cats often bounce off the walls, literally, after the surgery. You'll see that they often don't want to put any weight on their feet for days, sometimes weeks, afterwards. Cats are great at hiding pain, so some cats don't react nearly as badly, but that doesn't mean they aren't in pain. The cat can't talk. It can't tell people how much it hurts. Sorry, I don't care who tries to say having one's toes removed at the joints removed isn't painful - just think about having the ends of your toes amputated. You have to walk on them right away. In fact, you have to put all your weight on them, like a ballet dancer, because that is how cats walk. They are digitigrade; they walk on their toes, not on the "soles" of their feet. Do you think that would not be painful? Common sense. > It would be very nice if I had time to > train them as you obviously do so I wouldn`t have to declaw, but I don`t. So, if you don't have time to train your dog not to chew, would you remove its teeth? Or would you not have a dog? I have three fully-clawed cats and lovely, unclawed furniture. I live alone. I am away from home 9-10 hours a day, 5 days a week and often gone for up to 8 hours a day on the weekends. I have time to train my cats and my dog. I go home for lunch to walk my dog. I use deterrents with new cats so they won't scratch the furniture. I train my pets - I don't mutilate them for my own convenience. Signature-- ~kaeli~ If that phone was up your a$$, maybe you could drive a little better! http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >I have three fully-clawed cats and lovely, unclawed furniture. But like it or not, here where I live, whenever someone talks about a new cat, the first question that invariable comes up is, "is he/she declawed yet?" In fact I just heard it last week in a conversation among surgeons, and one just bought a bengal from Florida, sent to PA. A heck of a lot of education needs to be done, and frankly I don't see things changing anytime soon. You don't like it and neither do I, but that is just how it is. Teri >From: teri teric@enter.net >But like it or not, here where I live, whenever someone talks about a >new cat, the first question that invariable comes up is, "is he/she >declawed yet?" In fact I just heard it last week in a conversation >among surgeons, and one just bought a bengal from Florida, sent to PA. >A heck of a lot of education needs to be done, and frankly I don't see >things changing anytime soon. You don't like it and neither do I, >but that is just how it is. >Teri It can be just "how it is", or you can try to educate others. Did you tell these surgeons exactly what declawing entailed and educate them to that hopefully they wouldn't think it the norm to mutilate the cat? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >In article <C21Bb.100744$dl.4211457@twister.southeast.rr.com>, >ttsax@triad.rr.com >> It would be very nice if I had time to >> train them as you obviously do so I wouldn`t have to declaw, but I don`t. Then don't get a cat!!!!!!! Lazy selfish people like you make me sick! ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >>In article <C21Bb.100744$dl.4211457@twister.southeast.rr.com>, >>ttsax@triad.rr.com [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Then don't get a cat!!!!!!! Lazy selfish people like you make me sick! >________ If someone doesn't have time to properly train a pet, they have no business having one. Keeping an animal as a companion entails a variety of responsibilities. To say "I don't have time to train a cat to use a scratching post" is no different than saying "I don't have time to provide play opportunites for my cat, or take him/her to the vet, or groom him/her." In all cases, it means the owner does not have time to properly care for a pet. > The vet said >that the cat is put to sleep for the procedure and that it isn`t painful to >the animal. Good Lord. I keep reading this over and over from the pro-declaw camp, and I wonder if anyone realizes how silly is really sounds. Of course the procedure isn't painful. Neither is a quadruple by-pass, or brain surgery. That part is a walk in the park. It's the recovery that *isn't* painless. Sherry > > The vet said > >that the cat is put to sleep for the procedure and that it isn`t painful to > >the animal. > Sherry " <sriddles@aol.comkitty> wrote in message news:20031208145719.15210.00000526@mb-m04.aol.com... > Good Lord. I keep reading this over and over from the pro-declaw camp, and I > wonder if anyone realizes how silly is really sounds. Of course the procedure I know how silly it sounds. In my life I have had about eight cat altogether and have not felt compelled to destroy one of them my having its finger tips removed. I have always been able to get them to not tear things up by various mean using different types of scratching posts. One of my cats I took to the vet to get neutered, the vet de-clawed him by mistake. I have seen first hand what de-clawing the cat does, it changed his personality. He is a pathetic shell of a cat today compared to the way he used to be. >From: "medicscout" laSPAMmedicscout@yahoo.com >One of my cats I took to the vet to get neutered, the vet de-clawed him by >mistake. I have seen first hand what de-clawing the cat does, it changed >his personality. He is a pathetic shell of a cat today compared to the way >he used to be. That is awful!!!!!!!!! How does one declaw a cat "by mistake"?!!! ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: "medicscout" laSPAMmedicscout@yahoo.com > > >One of my cats I took to the vet to get neutered, the vet de-clawed him by > >mistake. I> > That is awful!!!!!!!!! How does one declaw a cat "by mistake"?!!! This happened in State College Pennsylvania. The Vet said that she thought she saw it on the slip. I think what this shows is how much the de-clawing is expected in the USA by people and Vets. I took one cat in years ago to have neutered and the Vet asked, "do you want us to de-claw him too?" She was so used to fixing cats and de-clawing them that she never thought twice about it. It gets spookier than that but I will tell that story some other time. >he Vet said that she thought she >saw it on the slip. I think what this >shows is how much the de-clawing >is expected in the USA by people >and Vets. Unacceptable! The vet is supposed to be responsible...and to actually look at the chart. Surgeries should be scheduled and listed so errors do not happen. If the facility is lax, then legal and licensing sanctions should be in place as a wake up call. >From: "medicscout" laSPAMmedicscout@yahoo.com >> >From: "medicscout" laSPAMmedicscout@yahoo.com >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >us to de-claw him too?" She was so used to fixing cats and de-clawing them >that she never thought twice about it. I think that's terrible. I'm sorry to hear about your cat. I know a lot of vets push declawing when they do a spay/neuter, unfortunately. > It gets spookier than that but I will tell that story some other time. Yes, do tell. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >> >From: "medicscout" laSPAMmedicscout@yahoo.com >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >that she never thought twice about it. > It gets spookier than that but I will tell that story some other time. Yes, I can see how a cat could be declawed by mistake, as you relate. When we took in a stray a few months ago, we brought her to a different vet than our usual one, to be examined. When it turned out she was healthy, we opted to have her spayed there. When the receptionist handed us the estimate, she said "you didn't say anything so I added declawing to the estimate." It was just assumed that we would want this cat (who is an adult, btw) declawed. Of course we gave her an earful. My husband was so worried they might declaw her anyway that he called the vet the morning of the surgery to make sure he understood we did not want her declawed. This is only one of the reasons we would not go back to this clinic, but it saddens me to think that any vet's office would just presume you'd want your cat--and an adult cat, at that--declawed. >From: yngver@aol.comnospam (Yngver) >>> >From: "medicscout" laSPAMmedicscout@yahoo.com >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >saddens me to think that any vet's office would just presume you'd want your >cat--and an adult cat, at that--declawed. This makes it very, very scarey to take a cat to the vet nowadays. Isn't that pathetic that one has to worry that their pet might "accidentally" have the ends of his toes amputated while at the vet? :( Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >>My husband was so worried they might declaw her anyway that he called the >vet [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >pathetic that one has to worry that their pet might "accidentally" have the >ends of his toes amputated while at the vet? :( Yes, it's scary. We just used this vet because he was close and had evening hours, which my regular cat clinic doesn't. I would certainly trust my regular vet, who discourages declawing, but this was a pet clinic that sees both dogs and cats. The vets there seemed more oriented towards dogs. I noticed a poster on their wall pushing the new FIV vaccine, too--another reason I wouldn't want to use them for our cats. They were overall nice people and I can't say our stray cat got poor care there, but I don't think they were as pro-cat as some of the feline only clinics. I guess as with anything else, you have to choose your vet carefully. >One of my cats I took to the vet to get neutered, the vet de-clawed him by >mistake. The mistake could have happened: 1) the vet entered the wrong procedure on the chart at the time of consultation. 2) the surgery schedule (usually on a blackboard on a wall) was not correctly listed. 3) the surgery was done on purpose and blamed on a mistake. Doing the wrong surgery/procedure on an animal - to me - is just like doing a wrong procedure/surgery on a human being. The vet must be held ethically and legally accountable. This also should be reported to the veterinary licensing board. If vet has a lot of mistakes like this, his/her license should be suspended/revoked. > One of my cats I took to the vet to get neutered, the vet de-clawed him by > mistake. I have seen first hand what de-clawing the cat does, it changed > his personality. He is a pathetic shell of a cat today compared to the way > he used to be. You know, my Mom likes declawed cats because she's a lazy, selfish person who wants a pet but can't train it. I've gotten on her case enough so that she now only adopts already declawed cats. Anyways, her cats are always so mellow and they lay around and do nothing all day. They never climb or jump on things (besides the chair and bed). She thinks this is a cool thing and means they're content and well behaved. I can tell you, her cats are VERY different from mine. Mine romp and play and get into trouble and climb and jump and chase and basically have a ball. Part of me wonders if her cats would have been different if they'd kept their fingers... IMO, my cats are CATS. Hers are fluffy ornaments. Sad. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace You know, I don`t mind being chastised for declawing my cats and I`ve learned something from it. What I can`t quite understand is the mean spirited way some of you write. I can`t imagine ever calling my mother "lazy and selfish" . She`s been dead many years and was a marvelous person. I can remember her leaning over one of her cats crying in the street because some jerk had run over the animal and didn`t stop . The cat had slipped out the door of our tiny apartment. I was about six years old. She had five beautiful Persians. I don`t know whether they were declawed or not and don`t care. Your mother`s cats may be "fluffy ornaments" but you`re an ungrateful pig. > > One of my cats I took to the vet to get neutered, the vet de-clawed him by > > mistake. I have seen first hand what de-clawing the cat does, it changed [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > You know, I don`t mind being chastised for declawing my cats and I`ve > learned something from it. What I can`t quite understand is the mean [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > care. Your mother`s cats may be "fluffy ornaments" but you`re an > ungrateful pig. Glad to hear you know so much about my life and my relationship with my parents as to judge. Also glad to hear you had such a nice Mom. Maybe you'd do better to keep in mind that not all of us are lucky to have perfect parents. Some of us didn't have a perfect childhood and still have issues with our family. Actually, most people I know have issues with their family. If you don't, you are either extremely lucky or in extreme denial. I love my parents dearly, as they both know, but no one is perfect, including me or them. If someone is lazy and selfish, that's just the way it is. Doesn't mean we don't love them. Also doesn't mean we don't call it for what it is. If that makes me an ungrateful pig, so be it. People who declaw because they don't know any better are one thing. People who know full well what it is and decide they don't have the time to train the cat and declaw it anyway are lazy and selfish. Doesn't make them evil or doomed to hell or anything. Just lazy and selfish. Have a nice day, The Ungrateful Pig Signature-- ~kaeli~ He often broke into song because he couldn't find the key. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > You know, I don`t mind being chastised for declawing my cats and I`ve > learned something from it. What I can`t quite understand is the mean [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > care. Your mother`s cats may be "fluffy ornaments" but you`re an > ungrateful pig. I think most people who declaw do it because they don't really understand what it is, or because they have been misguided by their veterinarian. I have seen vets outright lie to clients, and tell them no part of the bone is removed during the surgery. I don't think anyone who truly cares about their cats would knowingly submit them for amputation, if they understood the ramifications of the procedure, that there may be irreversible long-term affects on the cat's physiological and psychological health, or if they were given alternatives. The truth is, in almost all of the cases, the alternatives work - and most people would try them, if given the chance. But often, no alternatives are offered. Cats are wonderous creatures, and many "extremists" like myself hate the thought of them undergoing any procedure that isn't 100% necessary and is preventable. When a declaw "goes bad" the affects are devastating to the cat - and once it is done, there is no going back. That's why so may people get bent out of shape about it - they have seen how truly horrific the outcomes from this procedure can be. -L. >You know, my Mom likes declawed cats because she's a lazy, selfish >person who wants a pet but can't train it. I've gotten on her case [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >IMO, my cats are CATS. Hers are fluffy ornaments. >Sad. I agree with you. Many of the declawed cats I've known have not behaved like nomal, clawed cats, IMO. Years ago my roommate had a declawed cat and a dog, and I had a clawed cat. There was a huge difference--her cat spent most of its time cowering in corners because she was afraid of the dog. My cat, by contrast, put the dog in his place whenever he annoyed her, and romped and played as you describe. I don't think I ever once saw her cat play with a toy. My inlaw's declawed cats are similar--they mostly just lie around. > I would never declaw an outdoor cat. My cats are all indoors. I just talked > again to my vet and asked some questions about the procedure. You`re going > to think what you want to think so I`ll just tell you this. The vet said > that the cat is put to sleep for the procedure and that it isn`t painful to > the animal. Well, the recovery is. The cats literally bounce off the cage walls in pain, when the pain meds wear off. This usually happens during the night while the vet staff isn't in, and then they have to dose the cats again ASAP in the AM to make sure they are not in pain. For some cats, the pain doesn't subside, and they become chronically lame or fail to bear weight. It is an amputation. Amputation *is* painful. In fact, declawing is so painful it is used as a model system for severe pain management in the feline. >I would guess that if I lived in Europe I wouldn`t have it done > and probably wouldn`t have cats. I would challenge you to find better cared > for animals anywhere than mine. They are fed Wellness cat food and have all > shots and heart medicines on time. It would be very nice if I had time to > train them as you obviously do so I wouldn`t have to declaw, but I don`t. Then you should have a hampster, a goldfish or possibly a bird - not a cat. Plain and simple. What are you going to do when you "don't have time" to deal with it urinating inappropriately, biting, or many of the other behaviors cats exhibit? Dump it at a shelter like so many other declawers do?... -L. Thanks for your advice . I really do appreciate the input. > > I would never declaw an outdoor cat. My cats are all indoors. I just talked > > again to my vet and asked some questions about the procedure. You`re going [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -L. > Thanks for your advice . I really do appreciate the input. I used to think declawing was ok. I wouldn't have done it to my own cats, but had friends who had declawed cats, and didn't think that it was anything to get worked up about. Then I started working for a feline specialist. My experiences there changed my mind completely. Yes, many cats do seemingly well after declaw surgery, but on the flip side, many, many others do not. The long-term complications can be devastating. I heared so many times "I wish I hadn't declawed iher - it changed her so much." I saw cats after surgery that were in really bad shape - had broken open their sutures and bled a lot during the PM. Or bloodied their paws during the night, and had pulled off the bindings, despite having had an e-collar on. For these cats, we could't get in there fast enough to give them a shot of pain meds, rebind their feet, or resuture their toes. There were also cats who failed to bear weight after surgery. Some of them never got better. We saw older cats with arthritis, who wouldn't use the litter box because it became painful for them. By and large, declawing of kittens was uncomplicated, in terms of short-term problems, post-op. It was the older cats who had harder time adjusting psychologically and physically. But after seeing what the surgery did to the cats with the poor outcomes, cats of all ages, there is no way I could ever think declawing was ok, now. Never. The vet I worked for was a skilled orthopedic surgeon. People came from all over the US to have him fix their cats. I have seen that man piece together shattered fragments of bone to rebuild a front leg - like beads on a string - and two weeks later, the cat could use the limb. This guy was amazing. If I saw that many short-term problems resulting from the declaws he did - he did as many as 6 or 7 declaws per day - I cannot imagine how bad the complication rate must be for a vet who is not as skilled nor as experienced in the procedure. Anyway, that's my long story. I hope I at least gave you a different perspective. -L. You did. > > Thanks for your advice . I really do appreciate the input. > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > -L. >From: k3_e81@yahoo.com (-L.) >> I would never declaw an outdoor cat. My cats are all indoors. I just talked >> again to my vet and asked some questions about the procedure. You`re going [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >-L. You betcha she will. She leave it to the shelter to clean up her mess, without giving it a second thought. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > I just talked > again to my vet and asked some questions about the procedure. You`re going > to think what you want to think so I`ll just tell you this. The vet said > that the cat is put to sleep for the procedure and that it isn`t painful to > the animal. If you could see how happy my cat was before the Vet took his claws, and then see him today, three years later, he is not the same cat. He does not want you to touch his feet. The psycological pain will never heal. I read somewhere that every rose has its thorn and every cat has its claws and certainly both are worth the risk. > I would challenge you to find better cared > for animals anywhere than mine. They are fed Wellness cat food and have all > shots and heart medicines on time. I feed my hedgehog wellness cat food. I certainly would never cut his spines off because they prick me. >From: "Ted Thompson" ttsax@triad.rr.com >I`ll just tell you this. The vet said >that the cat is put to sleep for the procedure and that it isn`t painful to >the animal. Oh for Christ's sake, what do you think a vet is going to say? He makes MONEY from amputating the ends of cats' toes. Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, explains declawing: "The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of cats' recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so horrible that it has been employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge." Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm Thanks again for all your help Lauren, you sound like a really nice lady. Ted > >From: "Ted Thompson" ttsax@triad.rr.com > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html > Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >I`ll just tell you this. The vet said >that the cat is put to sleep for the procedure and that it isn`t painful to >the animal. That's a blanket statement that's recited for every prospective surgery. Of course it's painful....I've watched/assisted during a dozen such procedures. The medication used to put the cat out for the surgery does have pain killing properties..but the weeks following the surgery are not pain-free..despite the vets' claims. Hi Ted , I jjust wanted to know why you did it and it looks like you did it because you value your furniture more than your cat. BTW I think your vet has misled you about the pain. Alison > I would never declaw an outdoor cat. My cats are all indoors. I just talked > again to my vet and asked some questions about the procedure. You`re going [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > " Actually that`s not the reason at all Alison. I did it just to piss you off, and if I were around you at other times, I`d probably do other things just to piss you off, because pissing off people like you makes me happy. Ted > Hi Ted , > I jjust wanted to know why you did it and it looks like you did it [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > > > > > " > Actually that`s not the reason at all Alison. I did it just to piss you off, > and if I were around you at other times, I`d probably do other things just > to piss you off, because pissing off people like you makes me happy. Lol, I'm glad I've made *someone* happy. Alison > De-clawing may sound barbaric, but it`s a hell-of-a-lot better than death. Sometimes, however, it -leads- to death. When the owner gets tired of the complications and drops it off at a shelter that euthanizes... or simply takes it to the vet and has it put down. > Do you know how many cats have led long lives because they have been taken > to someone`s home and have lived and been cared for without tearing up their > nice furniture? No, I don't. Do -you- happen to have the statistics handy? > They don`t lose their paws, they lose their claws only. Actually, they lose the part of the toe that the claw stems from. Which makes it an amputation, not just a removal of the claws. Still, I know that a hangnail hurts like a bitch. I can't imagine having my fingernails yanked off, and I'm certainly not under the misguided notion that when the anesthesia wears off, the pain's gone, too. > Mine > are in-door cats. I don`t want to hear crap about that either. They are > happy , healthy and well cared for indoors. They run through the house and > romp around , then sleep on a king size bed with us. So are mine. Except they have their claws. > De-clawing may sound barbaric, but it`s a hell-of-a-lot better than death. > Do you know how many cats have led long lives because they have been taken > to someone`s home and have lived and been cared for without tearing up their > nice furniture? Oh no! Not the "declaw or death" ultimatum again... Moral blackmail isn't a very rational basis for an argument.... especially when millions of people around the world in countries where declawing is either illegal or considered unethical or immoral manage to live in harmony with their fully clawed cats... or do you think those people are covered with festering sores and live in shredded homes....? Pro-declawers always use moral blackmail because if they can't train their cat where to scratch its less painful than admitting their cat is smarter than they are... > Pro-declawers always use moral blackmail because if they can't train their > cat where to scratch its less painful than admitting their cat is smarter > than they are... My cats usually scratch where I want them to, but sometimes they find the corner of our couch or chair appealing too. Does this mean they're smarter than me, or just more broad-minded? :) Deb Signature"Maybe Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store." -- Theodor Seuss Geisel > > Pro-declawers always use moral blackmail because if they can't train their > > cat where to scratch its less painful than admitting their cat is smarter [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > corner of our couch or chair appealing too. Does this mean they're > smarter than me, or just more broad-minded? :) I've never considered you a pro-declawer, Deb, nor have I ever seen you make excuses for or try to rationalize declawing. Phil > > > Pro-declawers always use moral blackmail because if they can't train > their [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Phil That wasn't my point at all Phil, and I'm certainly not pro-declaw! I was just commenting on the fact that sometimes my cats do what they want to do - just like I do what I want to do - and that's okay with me, because I don't feel the need to control every part of their lives. My furniture just isn't as important to me as their well-being. There is NO excuse for declawing. Deb Signature"Maybe Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store." -- Theodor Seuss Geisel >That wasn't my point at all Phil, and I'm certainly not pro-declaw! I >was just commenting on the fact that sometimes my cats do what they want [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >There is NO excuse for declawing. I think, however, that sometimes when we make a statement that of course our cats are more important than the furniture, declaw supporters assume that means our furniture is in tatters. It's not. It's quite possible to have nice furniture--even very expensive furniture--that your fully clawed cats leave alone because they have been provided with more appealing scratching objects of their own. I understand your point that sometimes your cats do what they want. If someone has furniture that a single accidental scratch would completely ruin, well, I can pretty much guarantee it won't be the cats that ruin it. It will be a guest, or your kids, or your husband, because anything that fragile isn't going to remain perfect very long. >From: yngver@aol.comnospam (Yngver) >>That wasn't my point at all Phil, and I'm certainly not pro-declaw! I >>was just commenting on the fact that sometimes my cats do what they want [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >of >their own. Really good point, Yngver. I have nice furniture and yet my cats leave it alone. They would rather scratch their cat trees and scratch pads because they've been taught that those are appropriate places to scratch. I also made sure to get a tall enough and sturdy enough post, and also to get both vertical and horizontal type scratchers, to help them make their choice. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >Really good point, Yngver. I have nice furniture and yet my cats leave it >alone. They would rather scratch their cat trees and scratch pads because [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >vertical >and horizontal type scratchers, to help them make their choice. Yes, and many people don't realize that providing appropriate scratching options is the key. Too often I've had friends buy a cheap, wobbly scratching post at K-mart or similar, not knowing any better, and then they complain that their cat still prefers the sofa. Of course he does! It doesn't promise to fall over on him when he has a good vigorous scratch. I have two friends whose reason for declawing was "I have nice things; I can't let the cat tear them up." I think it's important to demonstrate to people that you can still have nice things and yet preserve your cat's claws. Seems like that's a common misconception that needs to be overcome. > >That wasn't my point at all Phil, and I'm certainly not pro-declaw! I > >was just commenting on the fact that sometimes my cats do what they want [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > alone because they have been provided with more appealing scratching objects of > their own. That's absolutely true. I was making a kind of wry comment, and I should know better than to do that in the middle of a declaw argument. I just find the "reasons" for declawing so trivial that I have to laugh sometimes - except that what they're doing is no laughing matter. > I understand your point that sometimes your cats do what they want. If someone > has furniture that a single accidental scratch would completely ruin, well, I > can pretty much guarantee it won't be the cats that ruin it. It will be a > guest, or your kids, or your husband, because anything that fragile isn't going > to remain perfect very long. Exactly. Deb >> >There is NO excuse for declawing. >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >That's absolutely true. I was making a kind of wry comment, and I should >know better than to do that in the middle of a declaw argument. No, I didn't mean you in particular. Just felt in general it's good to point out to the declaw supporters sometimes that the assumption that clawed cats equals tattered furniture is false. I just >find the "reasons" for declawing so trivial that I have to laugh >sometimes - except that what they're doing is no laughing matter. I know what you mean. Some of the reasons presented for declawing really are laughable. >> I understand your point that sometimes your cats do what they want. If >someone [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Exactly. LOL. My husband and my brother in law have done far more damage to the furniture than our cats ever have. > > > > Pro-declawers always use moral blackmail because if th |
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