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Science Diet question...

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Joe Canuck - 29 Nov 2003 01:22 GMT
Okay, this has just come to my attention. Can anyone explain why there
is a discrepancy between the ingredient list on the bag and the
ingredient list on the website for Science Diet Adult Chicken & Rice Recipe?

From the Hill's website:

Ingredients
Chicken, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, chicken by-product meal, corn
meal, animal fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid),
chicken liver flavor, DL- methionine, taurine, preserved with mixed
tocopherols and citric acid, minerals (potassium chloride, calcium
sulfate, salt, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous
oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), rosemary extract, beta
carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3
supplement, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source
of vitamin C), niacin, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate,
riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12
supplement).

From the bag (which I bought one week ago):

Chicken, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, chicken by-product meal, corn
meal, animal fat(preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid),
chicken liver flavour, DL-methionine, taurine, preserved with BHT and
BHA, beta-caroten, minerals (potassium choride, calcium sulfate, salt,
ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium
iodate, sodium, selenite), vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A
supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, ascorbic acid
(a source of vitamin C), niacin, thiamine, calcium pantothenate,
riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12
supplement).

So what is the deal with the subtle difference?

Signature

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

Karen M. - 29 Nov 2003 02:07 GMT
> Okay, this has just come to my attention. Can anyone explain why there
> is a discrepancy between the ingredient list on the bag and the
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> So what is the deal with the subtle difference?

Maybe a typo on the web??
Dennis Carr - 29 Nov 2003 03:47 GMT
> Okay, this has just come to my attention. Can anyone explain why there
> is a discrepancy between the ingredient list on the bag and the
> ingredient list on the website for Science Diet Adult Chicken & Rice Recipe?

It looks like a change in formulation happened somewhere down the road -
perhaps the BHA formula is old, and they put the new formula on the web?

Signature

Dennis Carr - ke6isf@spamcop.net    | I may be out of my mind,
http://www.dennis.furtopia.org      | But I have more fun that way.
------------------------------------+-------------------------------

Phil P. - 29 Nov 2003 03:47 GMT
> Okay, this has just come to my attention. Can anyone explain why there
> is a discrepancy between the ingredient list on the bag and the
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> So what is the deal with the subtle difference?

Prolly using up the last print run of bags before the change.  That type of
package is very expensive to print and manufacture.  Printing very high
quantities in single press runs significantly reduces the cost per bag.

Phil.
ChakaShiva - 29 Nov 2003 11:57 GMT
> > Okay, this has just come to my attention. Can anyone explain why there
> > is a discrepancy between the ingredient list on the bag and the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Phil.

Then it is permitted to have a description on the bag differing from the
true content?  Interesting.
I would presume more that the bag came from an old batch.   I sometimes go
to a little local supermarket when I have not time to go to town for my
shopping.  I've been seeing the very same unique bag of Science Diet kibble
lying on the shelf now for certainly over a year :-).  There's no mistake,
its the same one because it is ripped and taped on one side.

Elaine
PawsForThought - 29 Nov 2003 14:39 GMT
>From: "ChakaShiva" chakashiva@yahoo.ca

>> > Okay, this has just come to my attention. Can anyone explain why there
>> > is a discrepancy between the ingredient list on the bag and the
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
>Elaine

Yikes! It's still on the shelf?  
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
afr - 29 Nov 2003 17:02 GMT
Interesting shift in ingredients. Back in 95, my 13-year-olf cat
developed what two vets said was an unusual form of kidney cancer: both
kidneys were tremendously enlarged and practically all cancerous. The
levels in the blood work just 5 months before indicated nothing. Both vets
said it was very rare to see both kidneys with that type of cancer.

Shortly after that, during an informal chat with a woman who worked for a
pet insurance company (who sent me an article in the mail), I heard that
there was research indicating a strong link between bha and bht in
science diet and kidney cancer in cats. My previous cat had eaten that her
whole life. I had heard that Flynt River Ranch was good for cats with
urinary problems, so up until his recent blockage, my present companion
had been on that his whole life.

The moral of the story (to quote an icon from my young adult years): If
it's not one thing, it's another. You think you're serving premium cuisine
and it turns out to be high-priced sewage! :)

We do the best we can and hope to find providers near where we live who
understand our beloved felines.It's nice to have a forum like this where
people can share their experiences. I suspect what works for one cat,
might not, for another. The intuition in discerning what to do is the
difference between an average vet (far too many of those in my present
neck of the woods) and a good one (which, thank god, I finally found).

peace,

a.

On

> >From: "ChakaShiva" chakashiva@yahoo.ca
>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
> Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 30 Nov 2003 19:28 GMT
>From: afr afr@efn.org

>Interesting shift in ingredients.

No, just a change in the preservative system.  That should make most of you
happy, no?

>Shortly after that, during an informal chat with a woman who worked for a
>pet insurance company (who sent me an article in the mail), I heard that
>there was research indicating a strong link between bha and bht in
>science diet and kidney cancer in cats.

Unfortunately, there is no such "link".  Which insurance company was it?  I
want to know so that I can steer clear of them!  BHA and BHT are completely
safe preservatives when used at the levels found in pet foods.  Period.
PawsForThought - 30 Nov 2003 21:01 GMT
>From: gaubster2@aol.com  (GAUBSTER2)

>>From: afr afr@efn.org
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>want to know so that I can steer clear of them!  BHA and BHT are completely
>safe preservatives when used at the levels found in pet foods.  Period.

http://www.takingthelead.co.uk/2/Health/pet_dog_food.htm

________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 01 Dec 2003 15:47 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

> I heard that
>>>there was research indicating a strong link between bha and bht in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>http://www.takingthelead.co.uk/2/Health/pet_dog_food.htm

That wasn't even a nice try, not even for you Lauren.  That's the same opinion
(word for word) that's posted on countless websites.  Too bad, AGAIN, that
there is no proof, but only somebody's opinion.  Where's the research
indicating a "strong link"??

Check out www.petdiets.com
Jeremy Lowe - 01 Dec 2003 19:29 GMT
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=8
914617&dopt=Abstract


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=1
0212800&dopt=Abstract


http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/roc/tenth/profiles/s027bha.pdf

Possibly if a lung is dispositional to cancer BHT may accelerate the growth
by this study.
http://www.feingold.org/malkinson.html

So does it cause cancer?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
0908312&dopt=Abstract


Maybe not!

And if your pet, or you smoke pot..... well the damage is greater :-)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2119125&dopt=Abstract


Does it or does it not, that is the question of the day. Since most cancer
studies are lab studies with rats, not cats or dogs the question is still
debatable, but if you can avoid the products with BHT and BHA you are
probably better off IMHO

I would be more concerned with the heavy use of corn in the food since
Aflatoxin is very dangerous and is usually found on grains (such as wheat
and corn) and mushrooms. Since most grains that are used in the pet food
industry are not FDA inspected the worry about aflatoxins is not as great.
After all most of the major pet food manufacturers are involved in human
food production and need to make use of grains that are not fit for human
food, so thus the pet food industry!

There is an interesting study that shows a link between aflatoxin control
and the use of BHT to control it in prefeed studies, but then again the US
government insisted for years that asbestos was "perfectly safe".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2659720&dopt=Abstract


Best advice, avoid man made preservatives if possible, and many pet food
manufacturers are getting the message.

Jeremy
> >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Check out www.petdiets.com
GAUBSTER2 - 01 Dec 2003 20:55 GMT
>From: "Jeremy Lowe"

>I would be more concerned with the heavy use of corn in the food since
>Aflatoxin is very dangerous and is usually found on grains (such as wheat
>and corn) and mushrooms.

You should be MORE concerned about nutrient excesses which are the greatest
cause of health problems in pets today.  Please tell me when the last aflatoxin
outbreak from corn occurred.  You're more worried about things that aren't a
problem and ignoring real problems to focus on a imaginary problem.

>After all most of the major pet food manufacturers are involved in human
>food production and need to make use of grains that are not fit for human
>food, so thus the pet food industry!

Which human foods do Purina, Colgate, and Proctor and Gamble make?  I can see
your point when you're discussing Del Monte which owns IVD, Nature's Recipe,
and other grocery store foods, but the rest?  Gimme a break!  That is not why
the pet food industry exists.  Oh brother!

>Best advice, avoid man made preservatives if possible, and many pet food
>manufacturers are getting the message.

If not for those "man-made" preservatives, life would be much more difficult!
Not to mention some recent news regarding ethoxyquin retarding cancer growth!
And you're ignoring the addition in pet foods and human food of all of those
healthy vitamins and minerals that are artificial.
Jeremy Lowe - 01 Dec 2003 22:03 GMT
> >From: "Jeremy Lowe"
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> And you're ignoring the addition in pet foods and human food of all of those
> healthy vitamins and minerals that are artificial.

Aflatoxin is only a precursor to contamination by mycotoxins which are a
well diagnosed problem in both air and food and are a know harm to humans.

aflatoxin effect is hard to link directly to problems since the mycotoxins
produced by this growth is the real issue and it is a large enough problem
that the food industry has for years tested corn for the presence of
aflatoxin, however food rejected for human consumption is acceptable for
feed for animals.

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap41.html

I would strongly state that this is not imagination!

Proctor & Gamble 4.6 Billion in food and beverage sales with 15
manufacturing plants in the US (Ever heard of Pringles, or maybe that isn't
a snack food product in your dictionary)
http://www.corporatewindow.com/fl/pg/10kframe2.html

Ralston Purina owned interest and still has connected interest in Ralcorp
which produces the Beech Nut food line, a large consumer of grain products.
http://www.purina.com/company/profile/timeline.asp
Since its merger with Nestle' the giant Swiss owned food company it now has
more ties than ever to the human food industry.
http://www.nestleusa.com/careers/work/

As for Colgate Palmolive I did not state that all major pet food
manufacturers produce human food just MOST of them. This company is probably
one of the few that does not hold major interest in food production, but
then again I don't know that I would trust my pets health to accompany
that's major product is toothpaste!
http://www.business.com/directory/retail_and_consumer_services/beauty_and_person
al_care/colgate-palmolive_company/profile/


I also did not say that is why the pet food industry exists, I implied that
it is a hand and glove fit to be able to maximize profits by having a
secondary way to use profitably the foods that can't meet the criteria for
human food use, or to be able to maximize buying power by purchasing foods
for multiple industries. You can read what ever you want into that
statement.

Since the FDA asked pet food manufacturers to lower the PPM concentration of
ethoxyquin http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/updates/dogethox.html
there must be some concern. As to it's antioxidant properties there are
natural sources of antioxidants that are much better sources of these
desired properties. Since food that is bought by a pet food manufacturer as
prepared food does not fall under the guidelines of ingredient listing, only
what the manufacturer has added how do we know that the levels of ethoxyquin
are within the range listed by the FDA as acceptable. We can't, thus the
best advice is simply avoid the product.

I am not interested in starting a raging argument, but historically the US
Government has not had the best track record for food and material safety
testing, or need I remind you of that fact that 20 years ago the threshold
limits for formaldehyde were considerably lower that what they now are since
we have years of testing to show it's carcinogenic properties, what about
tobacco which the government has protected for years although it is a known
carcnigen, and now what about Teflon.

Get a grip.... my comments simply implied I think it is better to feed as
natural a food product as possible an avoid man made preservatives.

JBL
Karen M. - 02 Dec 2003 00:29 GMT
Jeremy,

Your last two posts were very interesting, thanks, and gave me some more
stuff to read (okay, maybe not thanks ;)).

If you really want to read a doozy about the FDA, check out this story
about the SSRI Serzone:

http://www.washingtonian.com/health/hardtoswallow.html

>>>From: "Jeremy Lowe"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 112 lines]
>
> JBL
GAUBSTER2 - 02 Dec 2003 06:19 GMT
>> Ralston Purina owned interest and still has connected interest in Ralcorp
>> which produces the Beech Nut food line, a large consumer of grain products.
>> http://www.purina.com/company/profile/timeline.asp
>> Since its merger with Nestle' the giant Swiss owned food company it now has
>> more ties than ever to the human food industry.

How could I forget about Nestle merging w/ Purina?  ;)

>> As for Colgate Palmolive I did not state that all major pet food
>> manufacturers produce human food just MOST of them. This company is
>probably
>> one of the few that does not hold major interest in food production, but
>> then again I don't know that I would trust my pets health to accompany
>> that's major product is toothpaste!

Colgate owns Hill's Pet Nutrition, but Hill's Pet is it's own company.  Don't
you think there is some synergy between clinically proven dental diets and the
expertise of Colgate in the dental category?  Or is that a bad thing?
PawsForThought - 02 Dec 2003 13:27 GMT
>From: gaubster2@aol.com  (GAUBSTER2)

>> Ralston Purina owned interest and still has connected interest in Ralcorp
>>> which produces the Beech Nut food line, a large consumer of grain
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>the
>expertise of Colgate in the dental category?  Or is that a bad thing?

Well, IMO, if they were really on the ball, they would not be advocating a dry
food diet for a carnivore.

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 02 Dec 2003 16:13 GMT
>Well, IMO, if they were really on the ball, they would not be advocating a
>dry
>food diet for a carnivore.

Why do millions of cats thrive on dry commercial diets?  You've never answered
that question and it blows you out of the water.  That is mostly all that I've
ever fed my own personal cats and they never had any health problems.  But
again, you're focused only on ingredients, since apparently you aren't
sophisticated enough to wrap your brain around the whole concept of nutrients.
PawsForThought - 02 Dec 2003 21:12 GMT
>From: gaubster2@aol.com  (GAUBSTER2)

>>Well, IMO, if they were really on the ball, they would not be advocating a
>>dry
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>sophisticated enough to wrap your brain around the whole concept of
>nutrients.

LOL!!!!  You have absolutely NO concept about feline nutrition.  You have ZERO
credibility.  It's a total waste of time to talk to you about feline nutrition
because you don't even know what it is.
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 02 Dec 2003 22:25 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

>>>Well, IMO, if they were really on the ball, they would not be advocating a
>>>dry
>>>food diet for a carnivore.

>>Why do millions of cats thrive on dry commercial diets?  You've never
>>answered
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>sophisticated enough to wrap your brain around the whole concept of
>>nutrients.

>LOL!!!!  You have absolutely NO concept about feline nutrition.  You have
>ZERO
>credibility.  It's a total waste of time to talk to you about feline
>nutrition
>because you don't even know what it is.

Checkmate!  You've lost the argument.  It's interesting that I supposedly have
no concept of feline nutrition, yet none of my cats have ever been sick.  Aside
from spay or neuter bills, my vet bills have been virtually non-existent.
OTOH, your cats have/had numerous problems.  Why don't you answer the question?
YOU are the one that doesn't know anything about nutrition--if you did, you
wouldn't spout the dribble that you do.  You are real good about making some
inane comment and then running away w/ your proverbial tail between your legs
laughing like a hyena, though!
PawsForThought - 03 Dec 2003 13:21 GMT
>From: gaubster2@aol.com  (GAUBSTER2)
>Date: 12/2/2003 5:25

>Checkmate!  You've lost the argument.  

I've lost nothing and you know it.  

>It's interesting that I supposedly have
>no concept of feline nutrition, yet none of my cats have ever been sick.
>Aside
>from spay or neuter bills, my vet bills have been virtually non-existent.
>OTOH, your cats have/had numerous problems.  Why don't you answer the
>question?

See, here is a perfect example about your comprehension problems.  It was my
DECEASED CATS who did poorly and were sick while on SCIENCE DIET.  My present
cats, who are fed a HOMEMADE RAW DIET that are healthy and have only been to
the vet for spay/neuter and yearly well checks.  Meesha was diagnosed with
asthma BEFORE being on a homemade raw diet.  Since being on the homemade raw
diet and other natural remedies, she has improved greatly.  My vet is amazed
how well she is doing.  We've never needed to put her on prednisone/steroids.
As I have posted before, they have a full blood panel done, at first every 6
months, but now we're thinking of going to yearly, and all numbers are well
within range.  They are sleek and muscular, the most energetic cats I've ever
had, bright eyed and bushy tailed, and they have never needed a dental
cleaning, and have never had any parasites or fleas. So now what do you have to
say, a.shole?

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Steve Crane - 05 Dec 2003 20:12 GMT
> >From: gaubster2@aol.com  (GAUBSTER2)
> >Date: 12/2/2003 5:25

> See, here is a perfect example about your comprehension problems.  It was my
> DECEASED CATS who did poorly and were sick while on SCIENCE DIET.  My present
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> had, bright eyed and bushy tailed, and they have never needed a dental
> cleaning, and have never had any parasites or fleas.

Hmmm, I guess those folks that fed the cheapest junk cat food they
could buy and have zero problems either are equally as strong a proof.
Onthe other hand dumb luck comes to mind.
PawsForThought - 05 Dec 2003 22:39 GMT
>From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net  (Steve Crane)

>> >From: gaubster2@aol.com  (GAUBSTER2)
>> >Date: 12/2/2003 5:25
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>could buy and have zero problems either are equally as strong a proof.
>Onthe other hand dumb luck comes to mind.

On the other hand, dumb *uck comes to mind - about you, LOL.  
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Steve Crane - 09 Dec 2003 03:58 GMT
> >Hmmm, I guess those folks that fed the cheapest junk cat food they
> >could buy and have zero problems either are equally as strong a proof.
> >Onthe other hand dumb luck comes to mind.
>
> On the other hand, dumb *uck comes to mind - about you, LOL.  

Typical answer - lose an argument and the best response is to
denigrate the messenger. It's easy to tell when you have totally lost
the argument and you *know* it, that's when you start with the nasty
stuff.
PawsForThought - 09 Dec 2003 13:18 GMT
>From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net  (Steve Crane)

>> >Hmmm, I guess those folks that fed the cheapest junk cat food they
>> >could buy and have zero problems either are equally as strong a proof.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>the argument and you *know* it, that's when you start with the nasty
>stuff.

That's rich coming from you, and exactly what argument did I supposedly lose?
I told you miy cats are healthy and you tell me that's dumb luck.  Then I tell
you no, you're a dumb f.ck.  You just hate the fact that someone who doesn't
feed Science Diet has healthy animals.  I do understand though.  Afterall, you
work for the company, so you need to defend it.  But since you do work for
Hill's, I take what you say on this newsgroup with a grain of salt, since
obviously your opinion is extremely biased.  I know if I posted in a legal
newsgroup (my field), I would certainly want to defend my employer.  It's only
natural.

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 09 Dec 2003 21:52 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

>>Typical answer - lose an argument and the best response is to
>>denigrate the messenger. It's easy to tell when you have totally lost
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>tell
>you no, you're a dumb f.ck.  

Lauren, for someone who profess to work in the legal profession you should
recognize the difference between right and wrong.  You lose the argument when
you starting calling people the f-word.  Then again, the way the tort system
works in the US today, it's no wonder you don't know the difference!

>You just hate the fact that someone who doesn't
>feed Science Diet has healthy animals.

More of your insane spin!  Nobody here has stated that they hate you or your
cats one way or the other and nobody here has stated that they CARE what you
feed or don't feed your cats.  But it makes your stories better if you can
portray it that way!  You seem to have this complex that you are the center of
the universe!

> But since you do work for
>Hill's, I take what you say on this newsgroup with a grain of salt, since
>obviously your opinion is extremely biased.  I know if I posted in a legal
>newsgroup (my field), I would certainly want to defend my employer.

As it ever occurred to you, that perhaps Steve works for Hill's because he
believes in what they do for pets?  Using your logic, the au natural crowd has
payed you off to post here.
Cheryl - 09 Dec 2003 23:05 GMT
> You lose the argument when
> you starting calling people the f-word.

How the f.ck do you figure that, O ye prudish one?

Signature

Cheryl

GAUBSTER2 - 10 Dec 2003 15:56 GMT
>From: Cheryl jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com

>> You lose the argument when
>> you starting calling people the f-word.
>
>How the f.ck do you figure that, O ye prudish one?

I see you'll be supporting John F'ing Kerry in the upcoming primaries?
Steve Crane - 10 Dec 2003 22:25 GMT
> >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net  (Steve Crane)

> That's rich coming from you, and exactly what argument did I supposedly lose?

I'd suggest you read previous posts.

> I told you miy cats are healthy and you tell me that's dumb luck.  

No I said it might be dumb luck that pets feed commercial diets were
healthy - re-read the post. Of course I was being sarcastic and the
dumb luck can equally be applied to cats fed anything - especially the
Barfista diet which has zero support among the veterinary Diplomates
of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition.

Then I tell
> you no, you're a dumb f.ck.  You just hate the fact that someone who doesn't
> feed Science Diet has healthy animals.  

BS - I could care less what you feed your animals. I do have concerns
when you frequently attempt to suggest solutions to medical problems
that would be very detrimental to the health of the animal. Obviously
I am not about to let you get away with your obsessive Hill's bashing
either. The long list of clearly disoriented comments you made about
that are well observed by everyone who ever frequents this NG. When
you quit with your obsessive and false comments about Hill's products,
and stop offering dangerous advice to newbies on this NG, you will
hear very little from me.

I do understand though.  Afterall, you
> work for the company, so you need to defend it.  

No, - I defend blatantly erroneous and false comments about pet foods
in general and when I am asked for hard data to support it - I provide
it. I also have light years more experience and knowledge about small
animal clinical nutrition than you will ever be able to acheive. I
also have access to dozens of Board certified veterinary Diplomates I
can talk to on a daily/hourly basis and don't need to rely upon
internet fantasy as my primary source of information.

But since you do work for
> Hill's, I take what you say on this newsgroup with a grain of salt, since
> obviously your opinion is extremely biased.

That isn't what bothers you at all. That's just your simplistic
attempt to destroy the messenger, because you continue to lose the
debate time after time. My "opinion" is always backed up with peer
reviewed published facts - those difficult things you hate so much
that always seem to get in the way of your erroneous opinions.

> I know if I posted in a legal newsgroup (my field),

Why am I not surprised. Two fields that are light years apart, one
deals with hard science and the other with whatever lies are needed to
win a case. There was a time I had some respect for lawyers, but I was
only 12 years old then and didn't know better.
PawsForThought - 11 Dec 2003 02:17 GMT
>From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net  (Steve Crane)

>> I told you miy cats are healthy and you tell me that's dumb luck.  
>
>No I said it might be dumb luck that pets feed commercial diets were
>healthy - re-read the post.

Oh, well maybe you're right then, LOL.

> Of course I was being sarcastic and the
>dumb luck can equally be applied to cats fed anything - especially the
>Barfista diet which has zero support among the veterinary Diplomates
>of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition.

Whatever <yawn>

>Then I tell
>> you no, you're a dumb f.ck.  You just hate the fact that someone who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>when you frequently attempt to suggest solutions to medical problems
>that would be very detrimental to the health of the animal.

Like what exactly are you talking about?  That I recommend a mostly canned diet
instead of dry kibble?  That I advocate a diet appropriate for a carnivore?
That most of all, I don't recommend feeding Science Diet?  That's your problem,
admit it.

> Obviously
>I am not about to let you get away with your obsessive Hill's bashing
>either.

I think you bash your competitor pet food companies way more than I've ever
bashed Hill's.  The fact is my animals did poorly on it and I'm not about to
hide that fact.  If you call that bashing, then go ahead.

>The long list of clearly disoriented comments you made about
>that are well observed by everyone who ever frequents this NG.

Let's see that would be you, Phil and Gaubster.  Do you really think I care
what you guys think of me?  Geez

> When
>you quit with your obsessive and false comments about Hill's products,
>and stop offering dangerous advice to newbies on this NG, you will
>hear very little from me.

Nothing false about what I said about Science Diet, Steve.  If I thought it was
a good food, I'd say so.  But for my animals, it was crappy food that
definitely caused them problems.  I even got out my deceased cat's medical
records to prove it.  Problems that went away once those cats were switched to
another brand of food.  I'm not the only one in this newsgroup whose animals
did poorly on it either.  I know your purpose in this group is to switch people
over to Hill's products, per your employer's instructions no doubt.  Sorry I
can't join in though.  It just didn't work for my animals and I feel I'd be
remiss in recommending it when my previous cats did so poorly on it.  Maybe it
works for some animals, but it sure didn't for mine.  Now rant and rave all you
want, but that's the bottom line.

>> I know if I posted in a legal newsgroup (my field),
>
>Why am I not surprised. Two fields that are light years apart, one
>deals with hard science and the other with whatever lies are needed to
>win a case. There was a time I had some respect for lawyers, but I was
>only 12 years old then and didn't know better.

LOL, gee, now my feelings are really hurt.  

Grow up, Steve.  You are so childish.
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 12 Dec 2003 00:30 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

>> Of course I was being sarcastic and the
>>dumb luck can equally be applied to cats fed anything - especially the
>>Barfista diet which has zero support among the veterinary Diplomates
>>of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition.
>
>Whatever <yawn>

Lauren, since you've admitted that you're "in" the legal profession it helps me
understand you a little better.....you won't let facts get in the way of a good
story!

>>BS - I could care less what you feed your animals. I do have concerns
>>when you frequently attempt to suggest solutions to medical problems
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>problem,
>admit it.

Objection!  You're leading the witness!

>> Obviously
>>I am not about to let you get away with your obsessive Hill's bashing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>bashed Hill's.  The fact is my animals did poorly on it and I'm not about to
>hide that fact.  If you call that bashing, then go ahead.

Perhaps you would like to provide some EVIDENCE that he has done this?  I've
actually seen Steve recommend a couple of other brands that weren't Hill's.
But again, those pesky facts get in your way, don't they?

>> When
>>you quit with your obsessive and false comments about Hill's products,
>>and stop offering dangerous advice to newbies on this NG, you will
>>hear very little from me.

> If I thought it was
>a good food, I'd say so.  But for my animals, it was crappy food that
>definitely caused them problems.

No, you made them up!

>I even got out my deceased cat's medical
>records to prove it.

Actually, no proof was provided, just your "word" on it.

> I know your purpose in this group is to switch people
>over to Hill's products, per your employer's instructions no doubt.  

Again, you're lying!  You've seen Steve's "disclaimers" many times, yet you
convienently ignore that fact!

> It just didn't work for my animals and I feel I'd be
>remiss in recommending it when my previous cats did so poorly on it.  

Nobody's asking for YOUR recommendation.

> Maybe it
>works for some animals, but it sure didn't for mine.

It works great on both my dog and cat!

>Grow up, Steve.  You are so childish.

At least he doesn't call you names and use the f-word like you and your ilk!
GAUBSTER2 - 07 Dec 2003 16:26 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

>>Checkmate!  You've lost the argument.  
>
>I've lost nothing and you know it.  

Then answer the question.  Why do you think millions of cats thrive on dry
foods?  Your theory doesn't hold any water and you know it.

> So now what do you have to
>say, a.shole?

You're a jerk and this should be a lesson for yngver to take note of.
PawsForThought - 07 Dec 2003 21:40 GMT
>From: gaubster2@aol.com  (GAUBSTER2)

>>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Then answer the question.  Why do you think millions of cats thrive on dry
>foods?  Your theory doesn't hold any water and you know it.

Well, it seems you've answered your own question, LOL.  
From Gaubster:
"How about the commercial foods that are high in fat, sodium, phosphorus,
calcium, magnesium, etc.........As for proof, look around you!  Go into vet
offices and talk w/ the doctors about the health problems they see due to poor
nutritional choices.  (and it's not just overfeeding)"

>> So now what do you have to
>>say, a.shole?
>
>You're a jerk and this should be a lesson for yngver to take note of.

Oh I'm just sure Yngver is taking notes, LOL

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 08 Dec 2003 06:16 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

>>Then answer the question.  Why do you think millions of cats thrive on dry
>>foods?  Your theory doesn't hold any water and you know it.

Perhaps you would like to add a bit of context to the conversation?  You can't
cut and paste responses from two different topics and expect that to prove your
point!  Nice try though.

And you still won't answer the question.  If cats are being fed poor quality
commercial foods (many of those being grocery store foods), then there will
tend to be more health problems caused by poor nutrition.  You can't honestly
compare diets that are made by Hill's to grocery store foods.  I know you'll
try to make the comparision but you aren't honest enough to accurately do so.
Or perhaps you are just clueless about nutrition?

>"How about the commercial foods that are high in fat, sodium, phosphorus,
>calcium, magnesium, etc.........As for proof, look around you!  Go into vet
>offices and talk w/ the doctors about the health problems they see due to
>poor
>nutritional choices.  (and it's not just overfeeding)"

More cats are fed grocery store foods than Hill's products, btw.

>>> So now what do you have to
>>>say, a.shole?
>>
>>You're a jerk and this should be a lesson for yngver to take note of.
>
>Oh I'm just sure Yngver is taking notes, LOL

If she is as impartial as she says she is, then she probably is!
afr - 07 Dec 2003 21:48 GMT
I never thought about the moist vs. dry food issue til my cat got blocked
a
month ago. As I think about it, the cats who I know who live long, healthy
lives are in semi-rural areas where neighbors are accustomed to cats
roaming in their yards...people aren't put off by it. I think being in a
safe, outdoor environment, free to exercise may be the critical variable.
I know cats who live long lives on a combination moist/dry  diet...but
they get lots of fresh air and exercise. My sister's cat lived to be
18...he was an outdoor cat, and I think he ate dry his whole life. My cat
now is on a ph neutral food, but he has the runs. He is an apartment cat
who used to be an outdoor cat.

ava

> >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> You're a jerk and this should be a lesson for yngver to take note of.
PawsForThought - 08 Dec 2003 15:52 GMT
>From: afr afr@efn.org

>I never thought about the moist vs. dry food issue til my cat got blocked
>a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>they get lots of fresh air and exercise. My sister's cat lived to be
>18...he was an outdoor cat, and I think he ate dry his whole life.

I think the outdoor cat was more than likely supplementing his diet with birds
and mice.  

Check out these articles for more information about dry food:

http://www.avma.org/convention/recap/news/tuesday16.asp

http://home.earthlink.net/~jacm2/id1.html

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch4.php

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Liz - 05 Dec 2003 03:30 GMT
gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) wrote in message
> Why do millions of cats thrive on dry commercial diets?  

They thrive until they get sick... Let´s see... FLUTD, diabetes, IBD..
Steve Crane - 06 Dec 2003 03:21 GMT
> gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) wrote in message
> > Why do millions of cats thrive on dry commercial diets?  
>
> They thrive until they get sick... Let´s see... FLUTD, diabetes, IBD..

Which affects what - maybe 5% of cats at some point in thier
lifetimes? So what everyone should do is abandon what works quite well
for 95% of cats and jump on the totally unproven BARFers bandwagon.
Something the vast majority of veterinarians and all Board Certified
Veterinary Nutritionists do not agree with. Heck yeh, that makes
perfect sense, sign me up.
PawsForThought - 06 Dec 2003 12:34 GMT
>From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net  (Steve Crane)

>> gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) wrote in message
>> > Why do millions of cats thrive on dry commercial diets?  
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Veterinary Nutritionists do not agree with. Heck yeh, that makes
>perfect sense, sign me up.

Interesting, I didn't see anything in Liz's post about a raw diet.  In fact,
she was simply commenting on "dry" commercial diets.  But of course, being a
sales rep for Hill's Science Diet, I think you just see red if anyone doesn't
agree with you.  As to the 5% you quoted, do you have anything to back that up?
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Cheryl - 06 Dec 2003 15:26 GMT
In news:20031206073410.19126.00000216@mb-m13.aol.com,

PawsForThought <darnit7@aol.comnolitter> composed with style:
>> From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net  (Steve Crane)

>>> They thrive until they get sick... Let?s see... FLUTD, diabetes,
>>> IBD..

>> Which affects what - maybe 5% of cats at some point in thier
>> lifetimes?

> As to the 5% you
> quoted, do you have anything to back that up?

I'm interested in this answer, too.  All three of those diseases
affects only 5% of all cats?  I find that very hard to believe.  I've
noticed him posting similar statistics WRT allergies (food allergies
in particular) and it seems to me these are all things that are very
common these days (according to my experience with multiple vets in
the last couple of years and the number of problems just on Usenet and
Yahoo groups.)
PawsForThought - 06 Dec 2003 15:46 GMT
>From: "Cheryl" nothing@hotmail.com

>PawsForThought <darnit7@aol.comnolitter> composed with style:
>>> From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net  (Steve Crane)
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>the last couple of years and the number of problems just on Usenet and
>Yahoo groups.)

That's why I questioned it.  It just doesn't seem right, does it?  I know
myself I've seen many, many posts about cats with these diseases.  BTW, what
does WRT mean?

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Cheryl - 06 Dec 2003 16:32 GMT
> That's why I questioned it.  It just doesn't seem right, does it?
> I know myself I've seen many, many posts about cats with these
> diseases.

Just think about all of those out there who never post to these
forums?  Or all those who don't try to get medical treatment for
various reasons and have the cat PTS?  I know many people who wouldn't
"bother" with extensive medical treatment for a cat.  Some are
probably never even diagnosed.

>BTW, what does WRT mean?

with regards to.
PawsForThought - 06 Dec 2003 19:16 GMT
>From: "Cheryl" nothing@hotmail.com

>PawsForThought <darnit7@aol.comnolitter> composed with style:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>"bother" with extensive medical treatment for a cat.  Some are
>probably never even diagnosed.

I'm sure you're right.

>>BTW, what does WRT mean?
>
>with regards to.

Thanks :)

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Cheryl - 06 Dec 2003 20:06 GMT
>> From: "Cheryl" nothing@hotmail.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I'm sure you're right.

And *another* thing.  The only definitive way to diagnose IBD is with
a biopsy and I just don't see many people doing that.  Even in the IBD
group, many have not had biopsies done on their cats but are going
with an "educated guess" that it is IBD.  I just can't see how there
can possibly be any accurate stats for this. <boggles
Steve Crane - 09 Dec 2003 04:04 GMT
> And *another* thing.  The only definitive way to diagnose IBD is with
> a biopsy and I just don't see many people doing that.  Even in the IBD
> group, many have not had biopsies done on their cats but are going
> with an "educated guess" that it is IBD.  I just can't see how there
> can possibly be any accurate stats for this. <boggles>

??????
That simply makes no sense at all. First you note that IBD can't
easily be diagnosed, then note that owners are taking an "educated
guess" that it is IBD. I would presume that veterinarians are far more
qualified to take an "educated guess" than most cat owners. The stats
for this come from a huge study of hundreds of clinics and thousands
of cats. At that number level the error rate (p-value) of such a study
is virtually zero.
MGW - 09 Dec 2003 04:44 GMT
>That simply makes no sense at all. First you note that IBD can't
>easily be diagnosed, then note that owners are taking an "educated
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>of cats. At that number level the error rate (p-value) of such a study
>is virtually zero.

Error rate and p-value are two very different things.  The error rate
has to do with the frequency of mistakes (such as wrong diagnoses).
The p-value has to do with the statistical significance of the
findings, which is not the same as clinical significance (i.e., you
can have findings that are statistically significant but too minor to
be clinically meaningful).

A former statistician and medical researcher.
Steve Crane - 09 Dec 2003 13:50 GMT
> >That simply makes no sense at all. First you note that IBD can't
> >easily be diagnosed, then note that owners are taking an "educated
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> A former statistician and medical researcher.

I stand corrected, you are right, they are not the same thing.
Nonetheless the huge number of cats involved in the study and the huge
number of clinics makes it impossible to argue against the results.
MGW - 09 Dec 2003 15:43 GMT
>> Error rate and p-value are two very different things.  The error rate
>> has to do with the frequency of mistakes (such as wrong diagnoses).
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Nonetheless the huge number of cats involved in the study and the huge
>number of clinics makes it impossible to argue against the results.

No, it makes it difficult to argue against the results and more likely
that they are correct.  However, there are hundreds of ways to do
large studies and get bad results.  If you are interested in
continuing the discussion, let me know and I'll email you offlist with
my real email addy to discuss it.
Cheryl - 09 Dec 2003 17:05 GMT
> > And *another* thing.  The only definitive way to diagnose IBD is with
> > a biopsy and I just don't see many people doing that.  Even in the IBD
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> easily be diagnosed, then note that owners are taking an "educated
> guess" that it is IBD.

If that is how it looked, my apologies.  I'm talking about the cats *vet*
diagnosing IBD based on an educated guess when biopsies are not done for
whatever reason.
Steve Crane - 09 Dec 2003 03:56 GMT
> > That's why I questioned it.  It just doesn't seem right, does it?
> > I know myself I've seen many, many posts about cats with these
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "bother" with extensive medical treatment for a cat.  Some are
> probably never even diagnosed.

Exaclty! Just think of all the healthy cats owners who never bother to
post to these forums. Obviosuly people with no problems aren't
spending their time looking for answers to problems they don't have. I
would expect this and other similar NG's to be *very* heavily loaded
with cat owners who *do* have problems, not the opposite.
ChakaShiva - 09 Dec 2003 15:18 GMT
> > > That's why I questioned it.  It just doesn't seem right, does it?
> > > I know myself I've seen many, many posts about cats with these
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> would expect this and other similar NG's to be *very* heavily loaded
> with cat owners who *do* have problems, not the opposite.

You are definetely right about that.  Spending alot of time reading this
kind of group gives us an unrealistic picture compared to the actual, global
situation.  We can get lost in it easily.
I guess when one does become part of the 0.01% statistic, it is no less
infuriating and it is normal to want to discover and eliminate the problem.
Since you have these numbers, what is the most common disease in cats and
statistic for it?

Elaine
Steve Crane - 09 Dec 2003 20:13 GMT
> "Steve Crane" <rosebrook@sbcglobal.net> a écrit dans le message de news:

> > Exaclty! Just think of all the healthy cats owners who never bother to
> > post to these forums. Obviosuly people with no problems aren't
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Elaine

Note that the totals exceed 100% as some cats will present with
multiple diagnosis. In descending order from the same study. Diagnosis
of less than 1/2% left off the list.

Feline Weight Management Total    24.6
Feline Oral Health Total    19.12
Feline Renal Disease Total    10.77
Feline GI Total                    7.61
Feline Respiratory Disease Total    6.99
Feline Urinary Disease Total    5.77
Feline Ophthalmic Disease Total    5.72
Feline Dermatology Total    4.41
Feline Otic Disease Total    3.13
Feline Behavior Total           2.79
Feline Infectious Disease Total    2.71
Feline Cardiovascular Disease Total    2.6
Feline Musculoskeletal Disease    2.04
Feline Hemapoietic Total    1.14
Feline Neurological Disease Total    0.97
Feline Endocrine Disease Total    0.91
Feline Cancer Total           0.71
Feline Hepatic Disorders Total    0.62
Feline Fiber Responsive Disease    0.59
Feline Metabolic Disease Total    0.18
Feline Adverse Food Reaction Total    0.14
Feline Immune Disorders Total    0.05
ChakaShiva - 10 Dec 2003 01:15 GMT
> > "Steve Crane" <rosebrook@sbcglobal.net> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> Feline Adverse Food Reaction Total 0.14
> Feline Immune Disorders Total 0.05

Thanks for supplying this.  After weight and oral I find some of these
numbers are really high.
What could be really interesting would be to compare these statistics with
that of another country, where feeding is pretty much equal but habits are
different,  such as outdoor access and no declaw, like in the UK for
example.  The differences might indicate to what degree food is responsible
in keeping the cat healthy or not.

Elaine
Steve Crane - 10 Dec 2003 22:30 GMT
> > "ChakaShiva" <chakashiva@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
>  news:<FJlBb.116110$CB2.1595293@weber.videotron.net>...
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> Elaine

Agreed, it would be very interesting information. I'm not aware of a
similar study done in Europe or in Japan. Both would be farily close
in terms of pet ownership, feeding habits etc.
Cheryl - 09 Dec 2003 17:08 GMT
> > > That's why I questioned it.  It just doesn't seem right, does it?
> > > I know myself I've seen many, many posts about cats with these
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Exaclty! Just think of all the healthy cats owners who never bother to
> post to these forums.

Exactly!  My whole point is that not everyone's world revolves around
Usenet.  Think of all the sick cats whose human doesn't post to these
forums.  I know people with problems similar to my cats problem (who WAS
diagnosed via biopsy) but they opt not to do that for whatever reason.  The
whole world doesn't revolve around Usenet, you know.

Obviosuly people with no problems aren't
> spending their time looking for answers to problems they don't have.

And obviously those with problems who *don't know about this resource*
aren't finding some answers here.

I
> would expect this and other similar NG's to be *very* heavily loaded
> with cat owners who *do* have problems, not the opposite.
PawsForThought - 09 Dec 2003 18:19 GMT
>From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com

>> "Cheryl" <nothing@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:<bqt0a2$26apvk$1@ID-94914.news.uni-berlin.de>...
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>And obviously those with problems who *don't know about this resource*
>aren't finding some answers here.

I found an interesting article about IBD and the under diagnosis of the same:

"Any cat with unexplained vomiting or diarrhea, especially chronic and
intermittent in nature, should be examined for IBD. This disease is often
overlooked and is under-diagnosed, leaving many cats to live in some measure of
discomfort. With fibreoptic endoscopy, diagnosis is safe and minimally
invasive. Treatment will not only avoid serious future complications, but will
improve the cat's quality of life."

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/health/ibd.html

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Cheryl - 09 Dec 2003 23:14 GMT
> "Any cat with unexplained vomiting or diarrhea, especially chronic and
> intermittent in nature, should be examined for IBD. This disease is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/health/ibd.html

Interesting, Lauren.  Back when Shadow became anorexic and he was at the
vets often and referred to that specialist from hell, IBD wasn't mentioned.  
The internist went straight to a possible lymphoma diagnosis (worst
case scenerio I suppose) before the biopsy.  After it was conclusive it was
IBD, his regular vet said she had suspected IBD when it responded to a
steroid shot but didn't bring it up.  I know they can't really "guess" but
now I keep reading how vets will try to treat based on experience first
before subjecting cats to an invasive procedure especially if they are sick
and there is a doubt about a possible bad reaction to anesthesia.

Signature

Cheryl

PawsForThought - 10 Dec 2003 13:30 GMT
>From: Cheryl jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com

>> "Any cat with unexplained vomiting or diarrhea, especially chronic and
>> intermittent in nature, should be examined for IBD. This disease is
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>before subjecting cats to an invasive procedure especially if they are sick
>and there is a doubt about a possible bad reaction to anesthesia.

How is Shadow doing now?  Are you still feeding him Wellness?  I came across a
new canned food without grains if you're interested:
http://www.naturesvariety.com/feline/

Lauren

________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Steve Crane - 10 Dec 2003 02:15 GMT
> >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Lauren

I don't disagree in the least that IBD is probably under diagnosed.
But as I noted elswhere if 9 out 10 were not diagnosed it only moves
the incidence rate from 0.01% to 0.1%. If 99 out of 100 are not
diagnosed it only moves the incidence to 1%. Still well within the my
original comments of "less than 5% of cats" for the three diseases in
question.
Cheryl - 10 Dec 2003 02:46 GMT
> If 99 out of 100 are not
> diagnosed it only moves the incidence to 1%. Still well within the my
> original comments of "less than 5% of cats" for the three diseases in
> question.

Out of all of the Hills Prescription diets, which one is the best selling?
Second? And are there statistics that can determine how many cats are in
need of a prescription diet or a specialized diet as opposed to a normal
healthy maintenance diet? Out of those "pet store" diets (SD Adult Maint,
Growth, Dental, Sensitive Stomach, Sensitive Skin), which is the best
selling?  Second? (just based on Hills/SD marketing statistics will do)

BTW - 99 undiagnosed out of 100 is pulling stats out of your a.s.  No one
knows what the true stat would be.  When it comes to the unknown, it could
be 9999 out of 10000.  Or higher.  We have no idea.  I don't suppose there
are any statistics out there for euthanasia (just done by vets with owner
consent) and reasons for doing so. Didn't think so.  It's hard enough
getting euth stats from shelters when trying to apply for a grant.  I can
imagine what it's like getting that info from private practice.

Signature

Cheryl

Steve Crane - 10 Dec 2003 13:18 GMT
> > If 99 out of 100 are not
> > diagnosed it only moves the incidence to 1%. Still well within the my
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Growth, Dental, Sensitive Stomach, Sensitive Skin), which is the best
> selling?  Second? (just based on Hills/SD marketing statistics will do)

Cheryl, that kind of information is proprietary and is not released.


> BTW - 99 undiagnosed out of 100 is pulling stats out of your a.s.  

No, I gave you hard numbers and you refused to accept them. You chose
to pull perceptions "out of your a.s" instead. My stats are backed up
with hard data published in a peer reviewed medical journal. Your
perceptions on the other hand are totally unsupported *opinions*. I
tried to show you that even if you were patrtially correct that
veterinarian under diagnose this disease it would not change anything.

> No one
> knows what the true stat would be.  When it comes to the unknown, it could
> be 9999 out of 10000.  Or higher.  We have no idea.

BS - We have a very clear idea, you just don't like it and want to
impose your unfounded and unsupported opinion instead.

 I don't suppose there
> are any statistics out there for euthanasia (just done by vets with owner
> consent) and reasons for doing so. Didn't think so.  It's hard enough
> getting euth stats from shelters when trying to apply for a grant.  I can
> imagine what it's like getting that info from private practice.

LOL, I can't help that you dislike the information, but it is factual
and thinking otherwise is merely self delusional. Again, if you
surround yourself with owners of IBD cats your perception will be in
error. The reality of life is that IBD is nowhere near as common as
you believe it to be. As I asked before, if you have some data to
support alternative conclusions I'd be happy to see it.
Cheryl - 11 Dec 2003 02:30 GMT
[Hill's sales]
>just based on Hills/SD marketing statistics
>> will do)
>
> Cheryl, that kind of information is proprietary and is not released.

Why?

>> BTW - 99 undiagnosed out of 100 is pulling stats out of your a.s.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> up
> with hard data published in a peer reviewed medical journal.

The fact still remains that if a problem is "unknown", it can't be
counted in your stats. I am not mad at your so-called stats; I just
don't believe them.  I don't believe your stat collectors have the
entire data set to come to that conclusion.  If it helps your company
comprise diets, so be it.  A great deal of those with problems are
coming up with their own diets now.
PawsForThought - 11 Dec 2003 13:18 GMT
>From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com

>Steve Crane <rosebrook@sbcglobal.net>

>> No, I gave you hard numbers and you refused to accept them. You
>> chose
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>comprise diets, so be it.  A great deal of those with problems are
>coming up with their own diets now.

From what I have seen, it seems to be working for some of these animals too,
when nothing else was.  I give these people credit for seeking out alternative
diets.  I know it's not easy and can be time consuming, but I'm sure it's worth
it when they see their animal is benefitting.

Lauren

________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Steve Crane - 11 Dec 2003 14:37 GMT
> The fact still remains that if a problem is "unknown", it can't be
> counted in your stats. I am not mad at your so-called stats; I just
> don't believe them.  I don't believe your stat collectors have the
> entire data set to come to that conclusion.  If it helps your company
> comprise diets, so be it.  A great deal of those with problems are
> coming up with their own diets now.

Cheryl,
  Perhaps you missed it, or simply it is your emotional desire to
ignore it, but these stats were not derived by my company and had
nothing to do with the company. They are totally independant and done
by the author without any outside funding, and subsequently published
in a peer reviewed veterinary journal. You can disbelieve them all you
wish, it changes nothing, except to illustrate that you deliberately
choose to ignore facts and rely instead upon emotionally derived
personal opinions. It certainly illustrates a mindset and thus calls
into question any other opinions you care to share. If you are willing
to ignore facts and stick with opinions that have been unequivocally
proven to be wrong, it would certainly be prudent to consider that
basis when examining other opinions you might share. "Don't confuse me
with the facts" kind of thing is certainly a dysfunctional mentality
and leads the victim along a lot of erroneous pathways.
Steve Crane - 08 Dec 2003 15:17 GMT
> >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net  (Steve Crane)
>  
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> sales rep for Hill's Science Diet, I think you just see red if anyone doesn't
> agree with you.  As to the 5% you quoted, do you have anything to back that up?

Of course,
 See below for hard data publisheed in a peer reviewed journal. I was
in error, it is LESS than 5% of cats. It only amounts to 4.62% of
cats. As to your comments about raw diets - only a moron would assume
the negative remarks about commercial diets weren't directive in
nature.

Source:
Health status and population characteristics of dogs and cats examined
at private veterinary practices in the United States
Elizabeth M. Lund, DVM, MPH, PhD; P. Jane Armstrong, DVM, MS; Claudia
A. Kirk, DVM, PhD; Linda M. Kolar, DVM, MPH; Jeffrey S. Klausner, DVM,
MS
JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, Vol. 214, No.
9 Pages 1336.1341  1999

IBD affects 0.01% of cats.
FLUTD affects 4.6% of cats.
Diabetes affects 0.01% of cats.
Cheryl - 09 Dec 2003 00:12 GMT
> JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, Vol. 214, No.
> 9 Pages 1336.1341  1999
>
> IBD affects 0.01% of cats.

This still doesn't take into account the cats (and dogs) that never had a
biopsy done, or were euthanized because the owner didn't want to deal with
it. This figure means nothing.  I see proof of entirely too many cats with
IBD.

Signature

Cheryl

PawsForThought - 09 Dec 2003 03:09 GMT
>From: Cheryl jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com

>> JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, Vol. 214, No.
>> 9 Pages 1336.1341  1999
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>it. This figure means nothing.  I see proof of entirely too many cats with
>IBD.

I had a cat that most likely had IBD.  The vet didn't do a biopsy because she
was old and sick, and we didn't want to put her through it.  The vet felt it
better to just treat her as if she did have IBD.  I would imagine this might
not be an uncommon thing.  Also, as the percentage that Steve quoted, I wonder
how they gather these numbers.  Like you say, probably a lot of cats don't get
the biopsy.

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 09 Dec 2003 06:20 GMT
>From: Cheryl jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com

>> JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, Vol. 214, No.
>> 9 Pages 1336.1341  1999
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>it. This figure means nothing.  I see proof of entirely too many cats with
>IBD.

That just takes the cake.  You're always whining and complaining about "proof"
and here you are....saying that the proof doesn't matter--YOUR mind is already
made up!  Don't confuse you w/ the facts, you've already got your mind set!

This is why I don't spend a lot of time providing "proof".  I get the same
grief when I DO provide proof or references.  The nimcompoops on this ng are
just going to disagree anyhow, so why bother?
Steve Crane - 09 Dec 2003 13:43 GMT
> > JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, Vol. 214, No.
> > 9 Pages 1336.1341  1999
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> it. This figure means nothing.  I see proof of entirely too many cats with
> IBD.

Cheryl,
  Of course you are welcome to your *opinion*, but that is all it is.
The facts are very clear. A persons perception is not necessarily
reality, just because they wish it to be so. Suppose only one in ten
cats are properly diagnosed, that would only move the disease from
0.01% to 0.1%. Even if only one out of one hundred cats were properly
diagnosed it would only move the percentage to 1% of cats. If you
think I'm still wrong, then prove it, find the data to support your
opinion. Find the peer reviewed study that illustartes a different
view point and I will be interested in seeing it. Acting like a
petulant child when faced with reality doesn't help you or other
people and thier cats. It would be much wiser to recognize that your
perception has been tainted by who you spend your time with. If you
surround yourself with a group of individuals whom all have the IBD
cats your view of the world is that all cats have IBD. When you take
into account the population of cats as a whole the percentage of cats
with IBD is extremely tiny - that's factual, your perception is not.
Steve Crane - 06 Dec 2003 03:23 GMT
> gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) wrote in message
> > Why do millions of cats thrive on dry commercial diets?  
>
> They thrive until they get sick... Let´s see... FLUTD, diabetes, IBD..

And Oh yes, let's see are there any more babies we should throw out
with the bathwater?
Yngver - 02 Dec 2003 17:36 GMT
>>Colgate owns Hill's Pet Nutrition, but Hill's Pet is it's own company.
>Don't
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>dry
>food diet for a carnivore.

I expect the reason nearly all pet food manufacturers produce both dry and
canned foods is that it would be pretty difficult to convince the public to
give up the convenience of dry food. From a consumer demand point of view, it
makes sense for a company to offer both. And it seems none of them have thought
of a way yet to make a dental diet canned food, since most of the dental diets
work--if they do--by the "scrubbing" effect of the cat biting down into a large
piece of kibble.

I'm sure that when dry cat food was introduced, it was marketing as a great
convenience, and many people still think of it that way.
PawsForThought - 02 Dec 2003 20:13 GMT
>From: yngver@aol.comnospam  (Yngver)

>>>Colgate owns Hill's Pet Nutrition, but Hill's Pet is it's own company.
>>Don't
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>I'm sure that when dry cat food was introduced, it was marketing as a great
>convenience, and many people still think of it that way.

Good point.  I think dry food is probably pretty close to sliced bread in the
convenience department :)

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 02 Dec 2003 06:16 GMT
>From: "Jeremy Lowe"

>Since the FDA asked pet food manufacturers to lower the PPM concentration of
>ethoxyquin http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/updates/dogethox.html
>there must be some concern.

You're focusing on something that is about 7+ years old?  Why are you looking
at the glass as being 1/2 empty?  There's nothing nefarious in setting
standards.  If it was so bad (as you suggest) why was it not banned altogether?
Using your logic, perhaps it's because there wasn't enought concern for a ban?

> As to it's antioxidant properties there are
>natural sources of antioxidants that are much better sources of these
>desired properties.

Such as....?

>Since food that is bought by a pet food manufacturer as
>prepared food does not fall under the guidelines of ingredient listing, only
>what the manufacturer has added how do we know that the levels of ethoxyquin
>are within the range listed by the FDA as acceptable.

Because there is no PROOF (empirical evidence) suggesting that eq is bad for
animals at levels found in pet foods.

>We can't, thus the
>best advice is simply avoid the product.

You still have never addressed my argument AGAINST excess nutrients.  You'd
rather focus on ingredients and not focus on a REAL problem--exces nutrients in
pet foods.

>Get a grip.... my comments simply implied I think it is better to feed as
>natural a food product as possible an avoid man made preservatives.

And I'm saying that there is nothing wrong w/ synthetic antioxidants.  Prove me
wrong.  Don't use scare tactics, use facts.  Don't go on about Teflon, or
tobacco companies, or formaldehyde, or the US Government, or anything else.
Deal with facts, please.
Jeremy Lowe - 03 Dec 2003 16:35 GMT
> >From: "Jeremy Lowe"
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> standards.  If it was so bad (as you suggest) why was it not banned altogether?
>  Using your logic, perhaps it's because there wasn't enought concern for a ban?

First, who said anything about glasses? :-)

> > As to it's antioxidant properties there are
> >natural sources of antioxidants that are much better sources of these
> >desired properties.
>
> Such as....?

I guess the term antioxidant can raise two specters in ones mind. The use of
ethoxyquin is as a preservative in fats to prevent oxidation and rancidity
if I have understood previou