Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / December 2003
food...
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Joe Canuck - 24 Nov 2003 16:40 GMT Anyone who has been following my food saga for at least a year in here may be interested to hear about this...
I have had my cat on primarily California Natural with about 25% Science Diet Nature's Best and a small amount of Innova and even lesser amount of Iams (very small amount) mixed in with it.
Finally came to the end of that food about 2 weeks ago... well an imposed end as I still had one container but decided I had it hanging around long enough and was perhaps getting long on the tooth even though it may still be good.
I decided to make the gradual switch over to 100% Science Diet Nature's Best. The food is available locally and switching to this made sense since the old blend already had some of this in it. After a couple of bouts of somewhat loose stools everything has settled down nicely. There has been no throwing up at all. The cat is happily chowing down on the SDNB with the most noticably change being the decrease in the volume of stool.
I have a bag of the Science Diet Adult Chicken & Rice formula that I am gradually mixing in with the SDNB. I will continue this until I have a 50/50 mix and then feed that.
I am strongly considering putting her on the SD Chicken & Rice 100% once the SDNB is all gone. However, and I'm not convinced this is a valid consideration or not, the SDNB has different sized & shaped bits which I'm thinking may help somewhat with dental health. I've noticed the SD Chicken & Rice are all of the same small size and shape.
Comments anyone? Phil? Steve?
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com - 24 Nov 2003 18:06 GMT >I decided to make the gradual switch over to 100% Science Diet Nature's >Best. Hey Joe, I was told by a Pet Value employee that it is no longer going to be available as sales were poor. He is not sure if that information only came from his head office or from Hills so you may want to buy some extra.
We feed our cats Hills canned products and for the occasional treats I give Hills dry products for their little rewards. Nature's Best (even in small quantities) has gotten rid of a flakey skin condition our one cat had.
-mhd
Joe Canuck - 24 Nov 2003 22:29 GMT >>I decided to make the gradual switch over to 100% Science Diet Nature's >>Best. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -mhd Hmm, all the more reason to get her off the SD Nature's Best once the current supply is gone. I like the SD Chicken & Rice formula better anyways and she gobbles it up like it was a treat. Perhaps I will do as you do... feed the Nature's Best as a treat. At one time she was as satisifed with it as she was with her regular treats.
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
Steve Crane - 25 Nov 2003 12:45 GMT > >I decided to make the gradual switch over to 100% Science Diet Nature's > >Best. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > only came from his head office or from Hills so you may want to buy > some extra. It might be possible that a certain retailer may choose to discontinue Nature's Best, but Hill's certainly isn't going to do so. It is now the leading selling natural product in the market, outselling all others.
Karen M. - 25 Nov 2003 20:43 GMT It's also sold in more places...
>>>I decided to make the gradual switch over to 100% Science Diet Nature's >>>Best. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the leading selling natural product in the market, outselling all > others. PawsForThought - 25 Nov 2003 21:05 GMT >From: "Karen M." user@account.com
>> hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com wrote in message >news:<hih4svg9mikeufaqi7od9gnb17vgmoo446@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> the leading selling natural product in the market, outselling all >> others.
>It's also sold in more places... I wonder, how does one make the claim that their product outsells all other products. I've heard that claim now from a few different companies.
________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Joe Canuck - 25 Nov 2003 21:24 GMT >>From: "Karen M." user@account.com > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I wonder, how does one make the claim that their product outsells all other > products. I've heard that claim now from a few different companies. Corporate intelligence is one way. I know this could be interpreted as an oxymoron, but in some cases that is how they can make the claim.
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
GAUBSTER2 - 26 Nov 2003 01:06 GMT >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought)
>I wonder, how does one make the claim that their product outsells all other >products. I've heard that claim now from a few different companies. Don't you think Steve would know....or are you gearing up on your anti-Hill's crusade again?
Cheryl - 26 Nov 2003 01:15 GMT >> From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Don't you think Steve would know....or are you gearing up on your > anti-Hill's crusade again? Why do you always defer to Steve Crane if you have nothing to add? You do this *constantly*. Why is that? Oh, that's right. Your mission statement. "Defend Hills Against All "Hills-Bashers" From Now Until I Die".
PawsForThought - 26 Nov 2003 01:36 GMT >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com
>>> From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >mission statement. "Defend Hills Against All "Hills-Bashers" From Now >Until I Die". I wonder if he has that on a bumper sticker? :) LMAO! Gaubster NEVER has anything to add. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 26 Nov 2003 15:59 GMT >I wonder if he has that on a bumper sticker? :) LMAO! Gaubster NEVER has >anything to add. Actually almost all of the points I've ever made have been backed up by others on this list. Just because it doesn't fit into your agenda or mindset doesn't mean much one way or the other!
Cheryl - 26 Nov 2003 23:07 GMT >> I wonder if he has that on a bumper sticker? :) LMAO! Gaubster >> NEVER has anything to add. > > Actually almost all of the points I've ever made have been backed > up by others on this list. Nope, you just parrot Steve Crane's posts. I've yet to see you post an original thought or fact. Anyone can repeat what they've read someone else say. Especially if they think the one saying it has all the facts.
GAUBSTER2 - 27 Nov 2003 07:26 GMT >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com
>> Actually almost all of the points I've ever made have been backed >> up by others on this list. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >someone else say. Especially if they think the one saying it has all >the facts. I don't think you really believe that. I sure take a lot of flames from the anti-Hill's crowd when I do post on factual things that happen in the pet food industry. I'll even give you an example. When I stated that some pet foods put a bacteria that is often found in feces in their products, I sure took flack for that. Never mind that I was accurate on the point. And I've never seen anyone try to make that point here. So, if you are questioning the originality of the information that I share here, fine. But the thoughts I share here are mine along. If I'm right along the way, then so be it.
PawsForThought - 27 Nov 2003 16:26 GMT >From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2)
>>From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >originality of the information that I share here, fine. But the thoughts I >share here are mine along. If I'm right along the way, then so be it. But you're not right, LOL ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 27 Nov 2003 18:41 GMT >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought)
>But you're not right, LOL You didn't say anything to support your position. Prove me wrong. Not w/ your opinion, but w/ some cold, hard facts.
Cheryl - 28 Nov 2003 20:10 GMT >> From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I don't think you really believe that. Yes, yes I do. :)
Joe Canuck - 26 Nov 2003 01:41 GMT >>>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > mission statement. "Defend Hills Against All "Hills-Bashers" From Now > Until I Die". That settles it... from now on I bash ALL and ANY food mention in this group. ;-)
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
GAUBSTER2 - 26 Nov 2003 15:58 GMT >>> I wonder, how does one make the claim that their product outsells >>> all other products. I've heard that claim now from a few [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >mission statement. "Defend Hills Against All "Hills-Bashers" From Now >Until I Die". Because Steve would know and Lauren knows that as well. Seems you have nothing to add yourself. Lauren knows full well that Steve Crane works for Hill's at their corporate HQ and if he says something, you should probably take it to the bank. Lauren didn't have anything to add either, by the way. Why are you so defensive, Cheryl?
Cheryl - 26 Nov 2003 23:04 GMT > Because Steve would know and Lauren knows that as well. And you are so in love with yourself that you felt you had to interject and say that Steve Crane can answer it and you can't. Just to see your nym in the thread. Okkkkkk. Why do you feel the need to answer it if you can't and fully admit you can't?
GAUBSTER2 - 27 Nov 2003 07:21 GMT >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com
>> Because Steve would know and Lauren knows that as well.
>And you are so in love with yourself that you felt you had to >interject and say that Steve Crane can answer it and you can't. Just >to see your nym in the thread. Okkkkkk. Why do you feel the need to >answer it if you can't and fully admit you can't? What you said doesn't change what I said. Steve works for Hill's and therefore would be privy to that kind of information. I don't work for Hill's (neither does Lauren judging by her posts) and so neither one of us has easy access to that information. But for some reason, Lauren doesn't "believe Steve". I think she is just playing dumb and being antagonistic, quite frankly. You don't have that info either, yet here you are responding too. Why? And no, I don't have a Narcissistic complex if that is what you are suggesting. I wonder though, if you aren't guilty of what you allege since you just couldn't exercise any self-restraint and just had to post here.
Cheryl - 28 Nov 2003 20:09 GMT You don't have
> that info either, yet here you are responding too. Just an observation as I said before. That you defer to Steve Crane with each tough question that wasn't even asked *of you* but you had to interject any way. What is confusing here for you to see that?
GAUBSTER2 - 30 Nov 2003 19:18 GMT >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com
>You don't have >> that info either, yet here you are responding too. > >Just an observation as I said before. That you defer to Steve Crane >with each tough question that wasn't even asked *of you* but you had >to interject any way. What is confusing here for you to see that? I didn't say I "knew" the info, I said that Steve Crane is obviously (based on his response) privy to such information. (just an observation, you know) THAT is why I deferred to him--BECAUSE he has the information, not me, not you, not Lauren, not anybody else. I was trying to make that crystal clear (as if it needed to be) because Lauren was playing dumb. What was wrong w/ my answer? That I was correct? You don't like it when I give the correct answer to the question? Is that it? As for interjecting--here you are doing it! Are you confused that you are accusing me of doing something that you, yourself are doing?
Steve Crane - 26 Nov 2003 18:49 GMT > >From: "Karen M." user@account.com
> > >It's also sold in more places... > > I wonder, how does one make the claim that their product outsells all other > products. I've heard that claim now from a few different companies. Most companies use various survey companies. Neilsen for instance in grocery stores buys information from grocery stores. Companies like Audits & Surveys tabulate sales from a wide variety of retailers, including grocery, mass market (Wal-Mart), pet specialty, veterinarians, independant pet retailers and farm and feed. They conduct manual inventory measurements at several hundred retail outlets and use the purchase history and inventory levels to determine actual sales each quarter. They sell that information to companies like Hill's who want to know what kind of market share they have. Audits & Surveys data is not always dead on accurate, but it is the most accurate of the available data.
PawsForThought - 26 Nov 2003 19:59 GMT >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net (Steve Crane)
>> >From: "Karen M." user@account.com > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Audits & Surveys data is not always dead on accurate, but it is the >most accurate of the available data. So there are no numbers posted anywhere where a consumer can see the actual figures? I just wonder because I've heard other companies, like Nutro for example, that claim to be the best seller in the natural cat food market. I called a company yesterday that gets the figures for natural foods. I asked them what brand of natural cat food is the top seller and they told me I'd have to pay them $250 to get that information.
________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 26 Nov 2003 20:48 GMT >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought)
>So there are no numbers posted anywhere where a consumer can see the actual >figures? If you pay for it, you can see the figures.
> I just wonder because I've heard other companies, like Nutro for >example, that claim to be the best seller in the natural cat food market. If you haven't figured it out already, Nutro reps will tell you anything to get you to buy their food.
>I >called a company yesterday that gets the figures for natural foods. I asked >them what brand of natural cat food is the top seller and they told me I'd >have >to pay them $250 to get that information. Yep. It ain't free!
Yngver - 26 Nov 2003 22:10 GMT >If you haven't figured it out already, Nutro reps will tell you anything to >get >you to buy their food. Uh-oh, a Nutro basher!
GAUBSTER2 - 27 Nov 2003 07:14 GMT >From: yngver@aol.comnospam (Yngver)
>>If you haven't figured it out already, Nutro reps will tell you anything to >>get >>you to buy their food. > >Uh-oh, a Nutro basher! I've had nothing but bad experiences w/ Nutro reps and I'm not the only one.
PawsForThought - 27 Nov 2003 16:22 GMT >From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2)
>>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) > >>So there are no numbers posted anywhere where a consumer can see the actual >>figures? > >If you pay for it, you can see the figures Yes, I found that out already. But why should a consumer have to pay? What's the big secret?
>> I just wonder because I've heard other companies, like Nutro for >>example, that claim to be the best seller in the natural cat food market. > >If you haven't figured it out already, Nutro reps will tell you anything to >get >you to buy their food. And if you haven't figured it out already, Science Diet does the same thing. So what's your point? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 27 Nov 2003 18:44 GMT >>If you pay for it, you can see the figures > >Yes, I found that out already. But why should a consumer have to pay? >What's >the big secret? Some organization worked pretty hard to put the info together. They have to pay for their expenses somehow, no? It's called supply and demand. Don't you work at a job and expect to receive compensation for it? Or is this one of those questions that you're going to ignore?
>And if you haven't figured it out already, Science Diet does the same thing. >So what's your point? Bash away Lauren. It won't do you any good. There is no comparison between Nutro and Science Diet in that area. Perhaps if you had some anecdotal experience to share w/ us....? ;)
Joe Canuck - 27 Nov 2003 22:13 GMT >>From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yes, I found that out already. But why should a consumer have to pay? What's > the big secret? Well, someone paid hard cold cash to have the figures gathered up and tabulated.
Say just for examples sake here that Science Diet have several leading products on the market place. I don't know if they do or don't, but let us just assume that for a moment.
The release the information showing this. Some consumers based on that information may flood over to Science Diet. Then the other manufacturers will be upset to say the least and will start challenging and publically
If, for instance, it was Science Diet who made the figures available to the general public and it was shown that Science Diet products were leading the market (example only here... I don't know if they are or are not) then the other manufacturers collective noses may be out of joint. Then there would be a real war going on in public over all this
>>>I just wonder because I've heard other companies, like Nutro for >>>example, that claim to be the best seller in the natural cat food market. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And if you haven't figured it out already, Science Diet does the same thing. > So what's your point? Not quite, at least not in my own experience.
I've dealt with Nutro, Science Diet and Iams/Eukanuba reps. They were all pleasant people to talk with and all seemed genuinely enthusiastic about their products. Not once did I hear any of them bash another companies product, instead they each promoted their own.
It makes more sense to promote and talk about their own products that it does to spend the time bashing other companies products.
> ________ > See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe > Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html > http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html > Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
PawsForThought - 28 Nov 2003 01:33 GMT >From: Joe Canuck
>> And if you haven't figured it out already, Science Diet does the same >thing. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >It makes more sense to promote and talk about their own products that it >does to spend the time bashing other companies products. I didn't say anything about bashing another company. I replied to a post where the person said Nutro reps will tell you anything to get you to buy their food. I said Science Diet does the same thing, which IME they do. I didn't say they bash another company. I said they will tell you anything to sell their product that they think you want to hear to buy their food. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Joe Canuck - 28 Nov 2003 03:45 GMT >>From: Joe Canuck > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > bash another company. I said they will tell you anything to sell their product > that they think you want to hear to buy their food. But, "...tell you anything..." can include bad-mouthing other companies products if that is what it takes to sell the food.
With two exceptions, no representative of any pet food company has ever tried to hard sell me their products or "...tell me anything..." to get me to purchase their products.
If I heard something from a rep that I thought wasn't quite right, I would be the first one to follow up with the company for clarification.
The companies public reputation is at stake in these situations since the rep is essentially acting as a spokesperson for the company. Just as a companies reputation is at stake based on what is said at its website.
BTW, one exception was an overly exuberant store owner who wanted to sell me one of every food item in her store. Fortunately I escaped with my wallet intact and only 1 bag of California Natural that I was feeding my cat at the time.
The other exception was a clerk in a store wanting to sell me a bag of Science Diet that was past the expiry date, insisting that it was still good. I had two problems with this... the first being the bag was not very fresh and the other being that the bag, which was looking very long on the tooth, was sitting on the floor by the door when I entered the store. Perhaps it had been used as a door stop. I suggested they keep using it as a door stop. :-)
I think I have said this before but we all need to pick products, including food, that suits our own needs and that we are comfortable with. I'm willing to discuss the merits or downside of foods anytime in a civil manner. My cat who is 3 years old has been on no less that 8 different food brands. If nothing else she will have had a variety and hopefully won't be a fussy eater.
She is now on Science Diet and doing rather well on it. One indication is the stool volume has decreased dramatically which means most of the food is being digested.
Now I know you feed raw. I've asked this question before and no one has stepped up to the plate to provide an answer so I will ask you directly:
How do you ensure your cats get all the nutrients in the minimum amounts as suggested by the AAFCO standards? How do you ensure a delicate and important issue like the Calcium:Phosphorus ratio is correct or at least somewhat in the appropriate area for each batch you prepare?
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
PawsForThought - 28 Nov 2003 13:36 GMT >From: Joe Canuck Joe_Canuck@Canada.ca
>>>From: Joe Canuck >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >But, "...tell you anything..." can include bad-mouthing other companies >products if that is what it takes to sell the food. Yes, I suppose that's true.
>With two exceptions, no representative of any pet food company has ever >tried to hard sell me their products or "...tell me anything..." to get [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the rep is essentially acting as a spokesperson for the company. Just as >a companies reputation is at stake based on what is said at its website. I've been in a store, I think it was a Petco, but can't remember for sure. Anyway, there was a rep from a petfood company who really was trying to sell me their food was the best. When I would bring up certain points, he told me things I knew weren't true.
>BTW, one exception was an overly exuberant store owner who wanted to >sell me one of every food item in her store. Fortunately I escaped with >my wallet intact and only 1 bag of California Natural that I was feeding >my cat at the time. LOL, good for you :)
>The other exception was a clerk in a store wanting to sell me a bag of >Science Diet that was past the expiry date, insisting that it was still [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >store. Perhaps it had been used as a door stop. I suggested they keep >using it as a door stop. :-) I hope they didn't sell it to anyone else. Food past its date can surely make a cat sick.
>I think I have said this before but we all need to pick products, >including food, that suits our own needs and that we are comfortable [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >is the stool volume has decreased dramatically which means most of the >food is being digested. I'm glad you found a food that works for your cat. I know it's not always easy to do. I think it is a good idea to feed a variety of food, especially in case the food or flavor stops being available. Unfortunately my experience with SD was a lot different.
>Now I know you feed raw. I've asked this question before and no one has >stepped up to the plate to provide an answer so I will ask you directly: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >important issue like the Calcium:Phosphorus ratio is correct or at least >somewhat in the appropriate area for each batch you prepare? I originally got the diet I feed my cats from my vet, who did have the diet analyzed. I also feed another variation of the diet which has been fed to cats for almost 30 years, with wonderful effects. Since feeding a raw diet, I have had my cats' checked out every 6 months with a full blood panel. I'd never fed a homemade diet before and wanted to make sure all was well. Their blood test results have always come back with all numbers well within range. I always tell people who are interested in a homemade raw diet to do their research well. It's more involved than just throwing down a piece of meat. But it's not rocket science either.
Lauren
________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Joe Canuck - 28 Nov 2003 14:13 GMT >>From: Joe Canuck Joe_Canuck@Canada.ca > [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > the food or flavor stops being available. Unfortunately my experience with SD > was a lot different. Unfortunately SD is the best of what I have been able to find in my area so far... short of mail ordering. There is Walthams, but I have little experience with that food. From there the selection here slides downhill to basically the grocery store type brands.
Mail ordering just doesn't make sense here considering it costs $15.00 to ship a $20.00 bag of food. Yikes!
I was quite concerned for a while about the situation, particulary given my cats reaction to the SD Adult Turkey wet which just didn't go down well at the time.
She is on the SD dry formula now and all is well. I may try the wet again, but I am very apprehensive about that given the results the last time. I really don't want to see her go through that grief again. I just knew something uncomfortable was going on inside her... I had that confirmed when she ran to the litter box and basically "exploded" a few times. Argh!
She has been on kibble since weaning off mother's milk, so perhaps she may just be one of those kibble only cats. She loves the canned and I know over the long run it is likely better, but both she and I hate what happens as a result of it.
>>Now I know you feed raw. I've asked this question before and no one has >>stepped up to the plate to provide an answer so I will ask you directly: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > well. It's more involved than just throwing down a piece of meat. But it's > not rocket science either. Okay, thank you for that. I suppose that is the one best way to ensure everything is going well, check the end results.
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
Diane L. Schirf - 28 Nov 2003 14:30 GMT > She has been on kibble since weaning off mother's milk, so perhaps she > may just be one of those kibble only cats. Hodge also tends to have a similar problem with canned food.
 Signature http://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/
Luvskats00 - 28 Nov 2003 15:18 GMT darnit7@aol.com
>'m glad you found a food that works for your cat. I know it's not >always easy
>to do. I think it is a good idea to feed a variety of food, especially in >case >the food or flavor stops being available. Ok...pretend we just met. I'm trying to find a food that will not cause my recently adopted cat to react unfavorably. In the month she's been here, she's thrown up every 2-3 days. In the beginning, I blamed the stress of a new environment and being with another cat. However, she did get checked out at the vet who ran some blood tests and did an x-ray. Nothing. I brush/comb her so she has less of a hairball problem. Still have the problem. I started with Fancy Feast (since my other cat eats that) No good. I called the vet and fed her the same food she ate during her 3-day stay there. Eventually, no good. I give her a spoonful at a time (3x a day) as suggested.. I tried IAMS, eventually, no good. Yesterday, she didn't like the food, walking away..so, I waited an hour and tried again with a new portion..no good. I then opened another can and offered her that. No good. She ate today.
I'm bringing her to another vet on Tuesday (when he returns to the office) to do more extensive testing. In the meantime, you know of any food that might be considered less of a burden on the stomach? Thanks for ideas.
PawsForThought - 28 Nov 2003 15:57 GMT >From: luvskats00@aol.com (Luvskats00)
>darnit7@aol.com >>'m glad you found a food that works for your cat. I know it's not >always [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >be >considered less of a burden on the stomach? Thanks for ideas. It's hard when you have a cat that continually vomits. If it were my cat, I would try a grain free diet, or one of the allergy diets. I believe Wellness makes a canned food without grains. Even though Petguard has grains, I believe it's brown rice they use and from what I've heard, their lamb and rice canned food helps some cats who have problems. IVD makes an allergy food but you have to get it through your vet. You could also try a digestive enzyme. That's the way I'd go if I was feeding a commercial diet. I would also join the Yahoo IBD group to get some ideas on what's working for other cats.
In the meantime, as a temporary measure to just get something into her, you might try some bland meat baby food (make sure no onions).
Here's the link for the IBD group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FelineIBD
Good luck,
Lauren
________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Luvskats00 - 28 Nov 2003 20:20 GMT darnit7@aol.comnolitter writes
>It's hard when you have a cat that continually vomits. If it were my cat, I >would try a grain free diet, or one of the allergy diets. I believe Wellness [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >In the meantime, as a temporary measure to just get something into her, you >might try some bland meat baby food (make sure no onions). Thanks much Lauren. I'll pick up a can of each of the above and pick up one of the "natural" baby foods today. Nellie Isabella & I appreciate your advice!
Joe Canuck - 28 Nov 2003 16:09 GMT > darnit7@aol.com > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > do more extensive testing. In the meantime, you know of any food that might be > considered less of a burden on the stomach? Thanks for ideas. Check with vet to rule out medical issues.
Try SD Sensitive Stomach.
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
Luvskats00 - 28 Nov 2003 20:24 GMT Joe_Canuck@Canada.ca writes
>SD Sensitive Stomach. Thanks..I will add that to the list. I sure hope one of these foods is compatible.
Yngver - 01 Dec 2003 19:05 GMT >>The companies public reputation is at stake in these situations since >>the rep is essentially acting as a spokesperson for the company. Just as [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >their food was the best. When I would bring up certain points, he told me >things I knew weren't true. I've had similar experiences at pet shows, where there were a variety of booths for various pet food manufacturers. Naturally the reps there all have a spiel about why their food is best, but some of them have told me things about feline nutrition I knew were not true. I can't recall who said what now, however, but in particular I remember asking a pet food rep about how their feline dental diet works, and what she told me was inaccurate. Perhaps she just hadn't studied up, but you expect a rep to know the product.
Steve Crane - 27 Nov 2003 00:58 GMT > >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net (Steve Crane)
> >Most companies use various survey companies. Neilsen for instance in > >grocery stores buys information from grocery stores. Companies like [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > called a company yesterday that gets the figures for natural foods. I asked > them what brand of natural cat food is the top seller and they told me I'd > have to pay them $250 to get that information. That is correct. I'm surprised they would sell it so cheap. I would have to guess that it was outdated information that has been out in the "public view" long enough to have little value. The cost of Audits and Surveys data is vastly more expensive than $250. There is always a small lag in the data, for instance the 3rd quarter data covering July, August and September did not show up until November 10th. Pet Food magazine publishes twice a year with data for the major companies, giving market share for the US as percentage of the total market. The November 2003 issue gives the following:
Nestle Purina 30% All Other brands 14% Hill's 12% Iams 12% Master Foods (Pedigree etc) 11% Ol' Roy 10% Del Monte 7% Nutro 4%
You can't expect a company that pays hundreds of people to go into stores and veterinary clinics, inventories the foods, and reviews purchase and sales history to give you that information for free. That's how they make a living and if they gave it to you for free, how would they pay all those people who work for them?
PawsForThought - 27 Nov 2003 16:24 GMT >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net (Steve Crane)
>> >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net (Steve Crane) > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >That's how they make a living and if they gave it to you for free, how >would they pay all those people who work for them? Yes, I suppose you do have a point. But, you would think that the pet food companies could all contribute to a listing of the data for consumers to see. It seems that would keep the competativeness going. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 26 Nov 2003 00:54 GMT >> It might be possible that a certain retailer may choose to discontinue >> Nature's Best, but Hill's certainly isn't going to do so. It is now >> the leading selling natural product in the market, outselling all >> others.
>From: "Karen M." user@account.com
>It's also sold in more places... Gee, I wonder why that is?? It must be pretty popular! ;)
Karen M. - 26 Nov 2003 18:59 GMT >>>It might be possible that a certain retailer may choose to discontinue >>>Nature's Best, but Hill's certainly isn't going to do so. It is now [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Gee, I wonder why that is?? It must be pretty popular! ;) It's also like comparing apples and oranges, that was my point.
Joe Canuck - 25 Nov 2003 17:12 GMT >>I decided to make the gradual switch over to 100% Science Diet Nature's >>Best. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > only came from his head office or from Hills so you may want to buy > some extra. I have confirmed with the company themselves they have no plans to discontinue this product.
Heck why would they, as Steve says they have cornered the natural market with the "Nature's Best" product line.
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
Steve Crane - 26 Nov 2003 18:52 GMT > Heck why would they, as Steve says they have cornered the natural market > with the "Nature's Best" product line. I would hardly say "cornered" the market. Simply the leader out of a large number of contestants. There's lot of room to grow. :-)
Joe Canuck - 27 Nov 2003 02:23 GMT >>Heck why would they, as Steve says they have cornered the natural market >>with the "Nature's Best" product line. > > I would hardly say "cornered" the market. Simply the leader out of a > large number of contestants. There's lot of room to grow. :-) Oh okay. I was overly enthusiastic then.
You see I can't help myself as my cat is doing rather well on Science Diet... I am very pleased. :-)
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
Karen M. - 24 Nov 2003 19:15 GMT > Anyone who has been following my food saga for at least a year in here > may be interested to hear about this... [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Comments anyone? Phil? Steve? Don't a couple of the SD's have a sticker that they have been approved as a dental health diet? I know it was talked about in one of the threads, so maybe mix one of those in? Or, since kitty is doing well with the SDNB, why not stick with that and start brushing kitty's teeth? Or does kitty not like this?? :)
K
Jeremy Lowe - 24 Nov 2003 21:05 GMT Who has approved SD for dental care? Since neither the FDA or AAFCO has specific approved definitions for this verabge, almost anyone can use this claim.
If a product has a certain additive such as microdent which is a trademarked product that has proven efficacy in dental care then great, otherwise buyer beware, more slick advertising.....
> > Anyone who has been following my food saga for at least a year in here > > may be interested to hear about this... [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > K Joe Canuck - 24 Nov 2003 22:25 GMT > Who has approved SD for dental care? Since neither the FDA or AAFCO has > specific approved definitions for this verabge, almost anyone can use this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > product that has proven efficacy in dental care then great, otherwise buyer > beware, more slick advertising..... http://www.vohc.org/
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
Karen M. - 24 Nov 2003 22:51 GMT It's the Veterinary Oral Health Council. I personally don't feed SD, I'm just the messenger here... :)
> Who has approved SD for dental care? Since neither the FDA or AAFCO has > specific approved definitions for this verabge, almost anyone can use this [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >> >>K Mary - 25 Nov 2003 00:37 GMT > It's the Veterinary Oral Health Council. I personally don't feed SD, I'm > just the messenger here... :) Also, I must say, my 20-year-old stray, fed SD dry exclusively from age 4 on, had ALL of her teeth when she died. Her daughter who died at 19 and was fed mostly wet Friskies type food had lost most of her teeth.
I do not currently feed my babies SD dry but am thinking about returning to it (as a supplement to quality wet food) since reading about cats producing lest poop while on it. I had forgotten about that, but do recall that my old girl's box was much easier to keep nice after SD. Now all we need is a totally poopless cat and we have the perfect animal! ;)
Karen M. - 25 Nov 2003 04:01 GMT >>It's the Veterinary Oral Health Council. I personally don't feed SD, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > nice after SD. Now all we need is a totally poopless cat and we have > the perfect animal! ;) Apply that concept to some men, too.. <running away and ducking
Mary - 25 Nov 2003 04:37 GMT > Apply that concept to some men, too.. <running away and ducking> Hahaha! SOME men?? :)
Yngver - 26 Nov 2003 22:14 GMT >Also, I must say, my 20-year-old stray, fed SD dry exclusively from >age 4 on, had ALL >of her teeth when she died. Her daughter who died at 19 and was fed >mostly wet Friskies type food had lost most of her teeth. There may or may not be a correlation. The only specific foods demonstrated to benefit dental health are some of the new dental diets approved as such, but those weren't around twenty years ago.
Mary - 28 Nov 2003 04:57 GMT > >Also, I must say, my 20-year-old stray, fed SD dry exclusively from > >age 4 on, had ALL [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > benefit dental health are some of the new dental diets approved as such, but > those weren't around twenty years ago. No, we have two cats, one mother and one daughter living in very similar environments except one was fed all wet the other all dry. The former lost most of her teeth by age 16 or so. The latter--eating regular SD, which was indeed on the market 15 years ago--ate that from age 4 on up and had ALL of her teeth. These cats were very genetically similar, they were mother and daughter. Of course there was a correlation.
PawsForThought - 24 Nov 2003 23:05 GMT >From: "Jeremy Lowe" flash1969NOSPAM@starband.net
>Who has approved SD for dental care? Since neither the FDA or AAFCO has >specific approved definitions for this verabge, almost anyone can use this >claim. I don't know what's in their product but evidently has the VOHC approval, for what it's worth. The problem with these kibble dental diets is the way cats chew. Their teeth are meant for ripping and tearing and from my understanding cats don't always chew kibble in a beneficial way for a dental diet. Also, SD dental is a dry food and it's been proven that canned cat food is much healthier for cats.
http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch4.php
http://www.avma.org/convention/recap/news/tuesday16.asp
http://home.earthlink.net/~jacm2/id1.html
Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Steve Crane - 25 Nov 2003 12:59 GMT > I don't know what's in their product but evidently has the VOHC approval, for > what it's worth. The problem with these kibble dental diets is the way cats > chew. Their teeth are meant for ripping and tearing and from my understanding > cats don't always chew kibble in a beneficial way for a dental diet. Also, SD > dental is a dry food and it's been proven that canned cat food is much > healthier for cats. Some caution here. The ONLY thing that has been "proven" is that cat fed a wet food will excrete more water in the urine, in contrast cats fed a dry food excrete more water in the feces. The thinking is that excreting additional water in the urine dilutes the urine and reduces the risk if FLUTD in cats. Considering that FLUTD affects a much smaller percentage of cats than does periodontal disease, one needs to weigh the risks and make an informed decision. All other claims for wet foods are mere hypothesis and remain unproven.
PawsForThought - 25 Nov 2003 13:21 GMT >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net (Steve Crane)
>> I don't know what's in their product but evidently has the VOHC approval, >for [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >weigh the risks and make an informed decision. All other claims for >wet foods are mere hypothesis and remain unproven. That may be, but I believe these articles written by vets say quite a lot about feeding cats kibble that is diluted with lots of grains. Remember, cats are carnivores and aren't meant to eat grain based foods. A small amount of grains is fine, but not in the high amounts in kibble. The cat's natural diet would consist of about 1 to 2% carbs whereas kibble can contain as much as 45% carbs. I've never seen it proven where a dry kibble is healthier for a cat. Since a cat metabolizes primarily fat and protein for energy, most of the carbohydrates in the diet are then stored as body fat. Look at the high number of obese cats there are. You can't tell me that's healthy, now can you?
http://www.avma.org/convention/recap/news/tuesday16.asp
http://home.earthlink.net/~jacm2/id1.html
http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch4.php
Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Mary - 25 Nov 2003 16:13 GMT > >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net (Steve Crane) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in the diet are then stored as body fat. Look at the high number of obese cats > there are. You can't tell me that's healthy, now can you? Not taking sides in the general debate, I would still like to offer my experience into the mix. My 20-year-old received nothing but dry food (SD regular and later for Srs) for a good 16 years. She was a really easy cat--I just kept the bowl full at all times--and she was never in any way overweight. She weighed 8-9 pounds her whole life. I think a lot of this has to do with genetics. (The fat factor, that is, or the propensity for overeating.)
What I think is very significant is that her daughter, also a blue-cream tortoiseshell domestic shorthair, and necessarily quite similar genetically had lost nearly all of her teeth by age 19 while her mother had all of her teeth at age 20.
The only difference is that the daughter was fed wet food exclusively and the mother dry.
Seems significant to me.
I still feed my current kitties a mix of wet and dry, and some plain people meat as treats.
PawsForThought - 25 Nov 2003 16:31 GMT >From: "Mary" rosefan@email.com
>> >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net (Steve Crane) >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >I still feed my current kitties a mix of wet and dry, and some plain >people meat as treats. I'm sure there are lots of cats that do great on dry food. But from reading these articles, it seems there are quite a few that do become obese, or have other problems from eating a dry food diet. They had an updated figure that came out I wish I could remember. It was quite high though. I'll see if I can find it. Also, as to the dental benefits to dry, it seems it depends a lot on how the particular cat chews his food. I don't know, I guess it depends on what a person thinks the trade off is by feeding kibble as the main diet as opposed to canned. I think what you're doing, by feeding both, sounds good. With my last cats, I fed them about 75% canned and about 25% dry food.
Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 26 Nov 2003 01:11 GMT >With my last cats, I fed them about 75% canned and about 25% dry food. You've never answered the question put to you...what foods did you feed your "last cats"?
Steve Crane - 25 Nov 2003 19:11 GMT > >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net (Steve Crane)
> Look at the high number of obese cats > there are. You can't tell me that's healthy, now can you? Please show us the peer reviewed published study that proves carbohydrates are the primary cause of obesity. As I said, everything but water excretion is hypothesis. It might be true, and again it might not.
What the carbophobics consistently ignore is what will the outcome of feeding the carbophobic diet long term? What's the downside of such a diet? No discussion of that side of the issue has been undertaken by any of the carbophobic promoters. None have acknowledged that renal failure is the number two killer of cats and that phosphorus and protein are intimately connected with this disease. Yet, all the carbophobics completely ignore even questioning what might happen if we move the pet population toward a carbophobic food. When I see some honest discussion about the possible ramifications of this and the downsides I'll have a more attentive ear to the discussion. Meanwhile with renal disease being the number two killer of cats, I think we could far better spend our resources looking at risk factors well known to be involved in renal failure.
Alison Perera - 25 Nov 2003 19:53 GMT > None have acknowledged that renal > failure is the number two killer of cats and that phosphorus and > protein are intimately connected with this disease. I'll acknowledge it. I'll also acknowledge that gum disease is at least as intimately connected, with a stronger causative correlation.
-Alison in OH
Steve Crane - 26 Nov 2003 16:20 GMT > > None have acknowledged that renal > > failure is the number two killer of cats and that phosphorus and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -Alison in OH Agreed, Especially in dogs where the issue of gum disease and anaerobic bacteria with an affinity for the mitral valve are a huge issue in toy breeds.
GAUBSTER2 - 26 Nov 2003 01:10 GMT >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought)
>That may be, but I believe these articles written by vets say quite a lot >about >feeding cats kibble that is diluted with lots of grains. What EXACTLY do you mean by, "kibble that is diluted with lots of grains"?? That sounds like a bunch of gobbedlygook, quite frankly.
>The cat's natural diet would >consist of about 1 to 2% carbs whereas kibble can contain as much as 45% >carbs. Tell me again what the life expectancy is for a cat in the wild? Compare that w/ cats in "captivity".
Joe Canuck - 26 Nov 2003 01:44 GMT >>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What EXACTLY do you mean by, "kibble that is diluted with lots of grains"?? > That sounds like a bunch of gobbedlygook, quite frankly. 1 grain = 64.79891 milligrams ;-)
>>The cat's natural diet would >>consist of about 1 to 2% carbs whereas kibble can contain as much as 45% >>carbs. > > Tell me again what the life expectancy is for a cat in the wild? Compare that > w/ cats in "captivity".
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
Cheryl - 26 Nov 2003 02:02 GMT >>> From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > 1 grain = 64.79891 milligrams ;-) I think it is more accurate to say that dry food is *meat diluted with lots of grains*.
Steve Crane - 26 Nov 2003 16:16 GMT > 1 grain = 64.79891 milligrams ;-) ROFLMAO
Yngver - 26 Nov 2003 22:08 GMT >Tell me again what the life expectancy is for a cat in the wild? Compare >that >w/ cats in "captivity". What, are you arguing that wild cats in a natural environment die prematurely mainly due to poor diet? I think most of them die due to a host of other factors. Nature is not kind to predators once they are past their prime.
Diane L. Schirf - 26 Nov 2003 22:59 GMT > What, are you arguing that wild cats in a natural environment die prematurely > mainly due to poor diet? There are numerous statistics as to what (wild) animals in the wild die of; I remember that parasites and poor nutrition are two of the top contenders, even for young animals, so I'm not sure what your point is.
 Signature http://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/
Yngver - 27 Nov 2003 03:09 GMT >"Diane L. Schirf" donotspamme@thisaddress.com
>There are numerous statistics as to what (wild) animals in the wild die >of; I remember that parasites and poor nutrition are two of the top >contenders, even for young animals, so I'm not sure what your point is. Poor nutrition in the sense that what they were able to find to eat did not constitute a nutritionally balanced diet, or poor nutrition meaning starvation?
Karen M. - 27 Nov 2003 04:17 GMT >>What, are you arguing that wild cats in a natural environment die prematurely >>mainly due to poor diet? > > There are numerous statistics as to what (wild) animals in the wild die > of; I remember that parasites and poor nutrition are two of the top > contenders, even for young animals, so I'm not sure what your point is. Human predation and parasites/diseases, yes. Poor nutrition, no - unless you mean starvation.
Diane L. Schirf - 27 Nov 2003 04:19 GMT > > There are numerous statistics as to what (wild) animals in the wild die > > of; I remember that parasites and poor nutrition are two of the top > > contenders, even for young animals, so I'm not sure what your point is. > > Human predation and parasites/diseases, yes. Poor nutrition, no - unless > you mean starvation. Human predation is actually much lower on the list for what kills most wild animals.
Poor nutrition leads to susceptibility to disease/parasitism. So it's more than just simple starvation.
 Signature http://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/
Cheryl - 27 Nov 2003 04:35 GMT >> Human predation and parasites/diseases, yes. Poor nutrition, no - >> unless you mean starvation. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it's > more than just simple starvation. Depends on your description of "human predation".
Karen M. - 27 Nov 2003 19:23 GMT >>>There are numerous statistics as to what (wild) animals in the wild die >>>of; I remember that parasites and poor nutrition are two of the top [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Poor nutrition leads to susceptibility to disease/parasitism. So it's > more than just simple starvation. Sorry, based on the not-insignificant amount of reading I do on wildlife, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Human-caused mortality - be it hunting or habitat loss is the single greatest threat to the majority of species on the planet. As for the poor nutrition, lack of accessibility to prey would cause poor nutrition, and hence starvation.
GAUBSTER2 - 27 Nov 2003 07:15 GMT >>Tell me again what the life expectancy is for a cat in the wild? Compare >>that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >mainly due to poor diet? I think most of them die due to a host of other >factors. Nature is not kind to predators once they are past their prime. Thus, the bottom line is that housecats live longer, better quality lives than do their wild counterparts--my point all along.
Yngver - 26 Nov 2003 22:20 GMT >I don't know what's in their product but evidently has the VOHC approval, for >what it's worth. The problem with these kibble dental diets is the way cats [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Lauren I can verify that with certain dental diets, my cat that needs them most does not benefit, because when she barfs them up the kibble is still whole. So clearly if they are intended to work by mechanical action, they are not working at all for her because she avoids chewing them.
SD Oral Care is too big for her to swallow whole--thus she doesn't eat it. Our two other cats do like it, however, and they chew it. Whether my vet will see any improvement in dental health when they go in for their next exams remains to be seen. I don't see any difference myself.
My one objection to SD Oral Care is that when the cats munch on it, they dribble pieces back into the dish. Since I know that half crunched kibble coated with saliva can be a breeding ground for bacteria, I disinfect the bowl every day, but I still wonder if that aspect of the food may cause a problem eventually.
Steve Crane - 25 Nov 2003 12:54 GMT > Who has approved SD for dental care? Since neither the FDA or AAFCO has > specific approved definitions for this verabge, almost anyone can use this [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "Karen M." <user@account.com> wrote in message Veterinary Oral Health Council provides the process and study designs required to gain approval for dental claims, at present they will accord claims fro plaque or tartar or both, depending upon results. VOHC rules are extensive and require substantially more evidence than simply illustrating that tartar has been chipped off here and there.
http://www.vohc.org/
You are correct that anyone can claim some dental benefit with a dry food - in comparison to a wet food. Marketing claims are vastly different than VOHC approval.
Joe Canuck - 24 Nov 2003 22:26 GMT >> Anyone who has been following my food saga for at least a year in here >> may be interested to hear about this... [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > K Kitty might get kranky! ;-)
I provided the link farther down in the thread.
 Signature "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck
Steve Crane - 25 Nov 2003 12:50 GMT > Don't a couple of the SD's have a sticker that they have been approved > as a dental health diet? I know it was talked about in one of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > K Prescription Diet Feline t/d and Science Diet Feline Oral Care both have VOHC seal for plaque and tartar. Prescription Diet t/d has claims for gingivitis as well, which Oral Care does not.
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