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Peeing inappropriately!

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SongSylvan - 17 Nov 2003 19:09 GMT
OK--twice in this past week, Chase had peed other than where he should.  This
morning was the big lulu--he peed on me as I was sleeping.  

I have no idea why.  The litterbox is clean, he's eating and drinking well,
he's been playing well with Paintball, so I have no reason to believe he's
sick.  

Arrrrrgh....any thoughts?

Magdalene
IWG #1024/Drill Sgt. of Local 35/Soiled Doves of Colorado
IFoRP # 57/First Mate of "The Flying Scotsman"
KC MasterPiece of the KCRF BBQ Wenches
One of Moonie's Naughty Kittens
Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
To email me, remove my bodice
Judy F - 17 Nov 2003 19:20 GMT
Any changes in Chase's routine? Sometimes stress (even if they aren't acting
stressed) can set them off. My cat peed all over when a painter was there.
Judy F

> OK--twice in this past week, Chase had peed other than where he should.  This
> morning was the big lulu--he peed on me as I was sleeping.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
> To email me, remove my bodice
Mary - 17 Nov 2003 19:28 GMT
> OK--twice in this past week, Chase had peed other than where he should.  This
> morning was the big lulu--he peed on me as I was sleeping.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Arrrrrgh....any thoughts?

Everyone seems to think this has to mean a urinary tract infection,
but the one and only time it
happened to me, the cat that jumped up on my husband's just-laundered
duvet cover and peed
on it while he was in bed was very, very upset with him.

I took her to the vet the next day and she got a clean bill of health.
She was 8 years old and had
NEVER done anything like this.

What was the problem?

1. Her box was not as clean as she liked.

2. Our new introduction, another girl cat, was pooping in her box,
unbeknownst to us.

3. While laundering his comforter cover, my husband left the down
comforter on the bed and the kitty kept trying to snuggle on it but he
didn't want her to as she is black and it is white, so he kept shooing
her off the bed.

Must have been the straw that broke the camel's back, as they say.
Because just as soon as he had the duvet cover back on and got into
bed,
she jumped up and peed all over it.

I think your cat is upset with you about something.
SongSylvan - 17 Nov 2003 19:49 GMT
There haven't been any changes lately, and I can't think of anything he'd be
upset about...I'm really at a loss here for why he did this.

I would've expected him to do this when Paintball first came to live with us,
and then insisted on sharing his food bowl/water bowl/litterbox, but that was a
year ago, and he let her. (Meaning he didn't hiss at her or anything to let her
know it was his stuff.)  With two cats sharing the same litterbox, you can bet
I clean that out regularly.

Their sleeping habits have changed a bit--ever since she came to live with us,
Paintball's wanted nothing more than to cuddle up to him at night, and I've
woken up lately to see them curled up together, but I figure if he didn't want
that, he would stalked away from her (which is what he did in the past when he
wasn't big on sharing his personal space with her).

And he's seemed friendlier--before, if I had people over, he'd hide, nowadays,
he comes downstairs and even demands to be petted.  So any changes I saw seemed
to be positive ones.  I'm honestly stumped as to what he could be upset about.

Magdalene
IWG #1024/Drill Sgt. of Local 35/Soiled Doves of Colorado
IFoRP # 57/First Mate of "The Flying Scotsman"
KC MasterPiece of the KCRF BBQ Wenches
One of Moonie's Naughty Kittens
Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
To email me, remove my bodice
kaeli - 17 Nov 2003 20:18 GMT
> And he's seemed friendlier--before, if I had people over, he'd hide, nowadays,
> he comes downstairs and even demands to be petted.  So any changes I saw seemed
> to be positive ones.  I'm honestly stumped as to what he could be upset about.

How old is he?
Is it possible he is losing control of his bladder? Our old Tom (RIP)
began losing control as he got older (12) and his kidneys didn't do so
great...

I can't think of anything else besides that and the customary UTI
explanation...

--
~kaeli~
A midget fortune teller who escapes from prison is a small
medium at large.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
SongSylvan - 17 Nov 2003 20:38 GMT
>How old is he?
>Is it possible he is losing control of his bladder? Our old Tom (RIP)
>began losing control as he got older (12) and his kidneys didn't do so
>great...

He'll be 7 years old in March....

>I can't think of anything else besides that and the customary UTI
>explanation...

*sigh*  I can't either.  With having been laid off recently, I was hoping we'd
all three avoid having any health issues until I was re-employed again.  I was
really hoping he was just pissed (pardon the pun) at me for something, but
nothing comes to mind.

Thanks,

Magdalene
IWG #1024/Drill Sgt. of Local 35/Soiled Doves of Colorado
IFoRP # 57/First Mate of "The Flying Scotsman"
KC MasterPiece of the KCRF BBQ Wenches
One of Moonie's Naughty Kittens
Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
To email me, remove my bodice
kaeli - 17 Nov 2003 20:52 GMT
> He'll be 7 years old in March....
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> really hoping he was just pissed (pardon the pun) at me for something, but
> nothing comes to mind.

Just kind of thinking out loud here...

Is it possible a stray has been roaming near your home?
Maybe even spraying in your yard or on your walls outside?

Have you started using any new detergents or cleaners or soaps?
Have you cleaned the box with a different detergent than usual? No
change in the brand of litter? No change in box location?

Any food changes at all?
Anything new in the home at all, including rugs, decorations, furniture,
etc...?

Maybe if we all brainstorm, we'll find something small and stupid.  :)

--
~kaeli~
Those who get too big for their britches will be exposed in
the end.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
zuzu22@webtv.net - 17 Nov 2003 21:50 GMT
Kaeli wrote:

> Just kind of thinking out loud here...
> Is it possible a stray has been roaming
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Maybe if we all brainstorm, we'll find
> something small and stupid. :)

Or maybe the cat will die from a blockage while you're wasting time
coming up with reasons why it couldn't be a UTI. I'm not sure why you
are doing everything in your power to ignore the obvious fact that
*until* a medical problem is ruled out speculating about other causes is
pointless.

UTIs can be serious and deadly, and I
am really disappointed that there seems to be an effort here to take the
focus off that and minimize this situation. With UTIs, ruling out a
physical cause, especially when it is a male cat and at greater risk of
blockage and death, must be a priority, not some second choice because
you don't want to bother going to the vet. Sure a vet visit takes time
and money, but that's part of being a responsible pet owner. When a
situation like this arises, risking the wellbeing of a cat to avoid
having to spend time and money taking the cat to a vet is just plain
wrong.

Lately I'm seeing more of this convenience oriented attitude on this
newsgroup by people that should know better and I am at a loss to
explain it.
It's a damn shame.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Karen M. - 17 Nov 2003 23:52 GMT
> Kaeli wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> you don't want to bother going to the vet. Sure a vet visit takes time
> and money, but that's part of being a responsible pet owner.

<snip>
It also gives great peace of mind for the owner! When Ernie got sick
recently, a rush to the vet reassured me greatly. He had an easily
treatable infection with a fever that has been successfully treated with
antibiotics. I suspect Ernie was playing sick by laying against a
heating vent to get extra attention from mom. ;)

To get back on topic, I too advise a vet visit. At least you'll be able
to rule *something* out.

Good luck,
K
SongSylvan - 18 Nov 2003 00:16 GMT
>To get back on topic, I too advise a vet visit. At least you'll be able
>to rule *something* out.
>
>Good luck,
>K

Thanks.  He's going tomorrow morning, but his vet (knowing him as she does) is
pretty convinced he's probably irate about something, and we just can't figure
out what it is.  Here's hoping.

Magdalene
IWG #1024/Drill Sgt. of Local 35/Soiled Doves of Colorado
IFoRP # 57/First Mate of "The Flying Scotsman"
KC MasterPiece of the KCRF BBQ Wenches
One of Moonie's Naughty Kittens
Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
To email me, remove my bodice
Karen M. - 18 Nov 2003 03:45 GMT
>>To get back on topic, I too advise a vet visit. At least you'll be able
>>to rule *something* out.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
> To email me, remove my bodice

If only they would consent to talk to us, it would make it so much
easier on us dumb humans, wouldn't it? ;)

:) K
PawsForThought - 19 Nov 2003 16:35 GMT
>From: songsylvan@aol.commybodice  (SongSylvan)

>Thanks.  He's going tomorrow morning, but his vet (knowing him as she does)
>is
>pretty convinced he's probably irate about something, and we just can't
>figure
>out what it is.  Here's hoping.

I'm glad to hear you're taking your cat to the vet.  I think that no matter how
well a vet knows a cat, the vet cannot know without a urinalysis whether or not
that cat has a urinary tract infection or some other medical issue.  It's
imperative that whenever a cat is inappropriately urinating outside the box
that a medical cause is ruled out immediately.

Best wishes for your kitty,

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
SongSylvan - 18 Nov 2003 00:15 GMT
>Or maybe the cat will die from a blockage while you're wasting time
>coming up with reasons why it couldn't be a UTI. I'm not sure why you
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>having to spend time and money taking the cat to a vet is just plain
>wrong.

Excuse me lady, but please point out where I said I didn't *want* to be
bothered taking Chase to a vet.  I said *hope*--everybody *hopes* there's
nothing seriously wrong with their pet, I'm pretty certain everybody here,
yourself included, would be relieved to find out, "This is common if you did
such-and-such."  There is not a darn thing wrong with asking if anybody has an
idea--when I called Chase's vet about this, she asked a lot of similiar
questions to what other posters have about possible changes or stresses that
might've triggered this, since her thinking is that peeing directly on me
indicates most likely he's mad at me about something.

>Lately I'm seeing more of this convenience oriented attitude on this
>newsgroup by people that should know better and I am at a loss to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>                                    

Since you are not currently in my shoes with my worries, I'll thank you to not
assume that I only worry about 'convenience'.  

Magdalene
IWG #1024/Drill Sgt. of Local 35/Soiled Doves of Colorado
IFoRP # 57/First Mate of "The Flying Scotsman"
KC MasterPiece of the KCRF BBQ Wenches
One of Moonie's Naughty Kittens
Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
To email me, remove my bodice
Joe Canuck - 18 Nov 2003 03:42 GMT
>>Or maybe the cat will die from a blockage while you're wasting time
>>coming up with reasons why it couldn't be a UTI. I'm not sure why you
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> might've triggered this, since her thinking is that peeing directly on me
> indicates most likely he's mad at me about something.

Lets rule out the possibility of a medical issue first.

While you are waiting on that one to develop, consider what has been
happening in your household that may have affected your cat. Anything at
all. Make a list.

>>Lately I'm seeing more of this convenience oriented attitude on this
>>newsgroup by people that should know better and I am at a loss to
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
> To email me, remove my bodice

Signature

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

zuzu22@webtv.net - 18 Nov 2003 05:44 GMT
> Excuse me lady, but please point out
> where I said I didn't *want* to be
> bothered taking Chase to a vet.

I never said *you* said that. I was speaking on a broader scale WRT
people that look for any answer that would give reason to avoid a trip
to the vet. However, you did say you hoped to avoid a vet visit and
Kaeli was happy to help you find some "small and stupid reason" so you
could avoid going to the vet. I had a bigger problem with that because I
think it's wrong to help someone find an excuse not to go to the vet
when the situation clearly calls for a medical check.

>I said
> *hope*--everybody *hopes* there's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> find out, "This is common if you did
> such-and-such."

But in the case of inappropriate urination, assuming it's behavioral can
mean death, and at the minimum a lot of pain and discomfort that
shouldn't be prolonged. You can hope all you want but with the
possibility of a UTI, unlike other issues, choosing to avoid a vet visit
can be deadly. There's no getting around that and no way to know for
sure what the cause is unless a urinalysis is done to rule in/out a
medical issue.

>There is not a darn
> thing wrong with asking if anybody has
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> indicates most likely he's mad at me
> about something.

Cats don't pee on people because they are *mad at you,* and this is a
mistaken idea that many people, and unfortunately some clueless vets,
make. It's a much more complicated dynamic that has nothing to do with
anger or revenge.  

>> Lately I'm seeing more of this
>> convenience oriented attitude on this
>> newsgroup by people that should know
>> better and I am at a loss to explain it.
>>
>> It's a damn shame.

> Since you are not currently in my shoes
> with my worries,

Which makes no difference WRT what I've said. I know all about being
broke and still having to come up with a way to pay for vet bills. Many
here, myself included, struggle, especially with the economy in such
rough shape. At least you only have 2 cats. I have 25, and shoes not
that much different from yours.

>I'll thank you to not
> assume that I only worry about
> 'convenience'.

I never said that. I was commenting on what seems to be a disturbing
trend here lately.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Mary - 18 Nov 2003 06:12 GMT
> > Excuse me lady, but please point out
> > where I said I didn't *want* to be
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> think it's wrong to help someone find an excuse not to go to the vet
> when the situation clearly calls for a medical check.

Megan. You feel so passionately about vet checks for everyone--I
admire that. Surely you could be a fund raiser for those who have
choices to make such as groceries for the week, or vet visit. You have
missed your calling.
kaeli - 18 Nov 2003 14:53 GMT
> Or maybe the cat will die from a blockage while you're wasting time
> coming up with reasons why it couldn't be a UTI. I'm not sure why you
> are doing everything in your power to ignore the obvious fact that
> *until* a medical problem is ruled out speculating about other causes is
> pointless.

Since I mentioned a UTI in every response, I'm surprised you got your
panties all in a knot over it.

Of course it could be that. That's the first thing everyone should
check. The OP knows this and stated so. The post was about that ELSE it
could be besides that.

Geez, who pissed in your coffee?

--
~kaeli~
When you choke a smurf, what color does it turn?
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
zuzu22@webtv.net - 18 Nov 2003 20:34 GMT
Kaeli wrote:

>Since I mentioned a UTI in every
>response, I'm surprised you got your
>panties all in a knot over it.

It was barely mentioned and not once did you say anything about going to
the vet and ruling out a medical cause first.

>Of course it could be that. That's the first
>thing everyone should check.

Yet you said nothing about that.

>The OP knows this and stated so.

It wasn't until much later after your first few responses that she said
anything about that and then it was to say that she was hoping to avoid
a vet visit. (Fortunately she finally did post later on  that Chase is
going to the vet.)

>The
>post was about that ELSE it could be
>besides that.

No, her first posts were strictly focused on behavioral causes. She made
it clear she didn't think he was sick and there was  no mention of "if
it's not a UTI what else could it be."  

>Geez, who pissed in your coffee?

I don't drink coffee.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

kaeli - 18 Nov 2003 21:06 GMT
> Kaeli wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> It was barely mentioned and not once did you say anything about going to
> the vet and ruling out a medical cause first.

Because I adore repeating what everyone else says. It makes me feel so
special.
It was mentioned by other posters, including yourself. I referred to it
so it didn't get left out, but repeating other people's opinions ad
nauseum isn't usually my cup of tea. Unless it's about declawing. heh

> >Of course it could be that. That's the first
> >thing everyone should check.
>
> Yet you said nothing about that.

Why would I?
You already had.
Again, I did mention the possibility. I'm not going to restate what you
and others already had when the question specifically asked for
behavioral causes.

> >The OP knows this and stated so.
>
> It wasn't until much later after your first few responses that she said
> anything about that and then it was to say that she was hoping to avoid
> a vet visit. (Fortunately she finally did post later on  that Chase is
> going to the vet.)

Your point?
UTI are serious, they are bad, the possibility was stated early on, and
the OP knew about the possibility. What else do you want from people? A
parrot of your opinions?
None of us is a vet. All of us guess at what's wrong. Posting in an
angry tone that pretty much accuses me and others on this group of being
negligent for talking about what could be wrong other than a UTI is
neither warranted nor appreciated. 16 posts saying "take the cat to the
vet, it could be a UTI" is not helpful if the problem is in fact, not a
UTI. The several postings warning the OP that it could be a UTI should
be enough of a warning to a responsible pet owner.

> >The
> >post was about that ELSE it could be
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> it clear she didn't think he was sick and there was  no mention of "if
> it's not a UTI what else could it be."  

I said *the* post, meaning MINE.
Others addressed the UTI.
I suppose I should have qualified that. Things don't always read the
same online as they do in your head when you're writing them.

> >Geez, who pissed in your coffee?
>
> I don't drink coffee.

Thanks for sharing.

--
~kaeli~
Black holes were created when God divided by 0.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
zuzu22@webtv.net - 18 Nov 2003 21:37 GMT
>>It was barely mentioned and not once
>>did you say anything about going to the
>>vet and ruling out a medical cause first.
>Because I adore repeating what everyone
>else says. It makes me feel so special.
>It was mentioned by other posters, >including yourself. I referred to
it so it
>didn't get left out, but repeating other
>people's opinions ad nauseum isn't
>usually my cup of tea. Unless it's about
>declawing. heh

When you posted, nobody had said the cat should be seen by a vet and you
said that it was likely the cat was mad at the OP and pretty much
dismissed the possibility of a UTI. Let me refresh your memory:
"If he peed on you, more than likely, he's mad at you about something.
UTI notwithstanding, this sounds like he wants your attention."

>>>Of course it could be that. That's the
>>>first thing everyone should check.

>>Yet you said nothing about that.

>Why would I? You already had.

No, I hadn't, and at that point neither had anyone else. You might want
to go back and check the times on the posts.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

kaeli - 19 Nov 2003 14:20 GMT
> >>It was barely mentioned and not once
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>  
> Megan

Different servers show different times.
Google shows your post before mine.
Other servers show it after.

The time the server shows isn't always the time something was actually
posted. It's the time the particular server got it after propagation.

I know I read posts before I posted. I'm not going to argue about it.
It's just not that important.

Have a nice day.

--
~kaeli~
A bicycle can't stand on its own because it is two tired.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
zuzu22@webtv.net - 19 Nov 2003 15:01 GMT
Kaeli wrote:

>Different servers show different times.
>Google shows your post before mine

In what alternate universe does my post at 14:05 come "before" yours at
12:26 and 12:57?
Lying about something so easily checked is pretty lame:
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=7d129a5707cbc976

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

kaeli - 17 Nov 2003 19:35 GMT
> OK--twice in this past week, Chase had peed other than where he should.  This
> morning was the big lulu--he peed on me as I was sleeping.  
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Arrrrrgh....any thoughts?

If he peed on you, more than likely, he's mad at you about something.
UTI notwithstanding, this sounds like he wants your attention. Have you
been playing with him as much, if not more, than Paintball?
Does Paintball share his box? Maybe he doesn't like that.
Just because they play together doesn't mean they like sharing the box.
Rowan still gets miffed when Jeffrey uses "her" box (I have two boxes)
for defecation. She will hold it until I clean it. Since I clean them
twice a day and Jeffrey rarely uses her box, this isn't a major issue,
but if he went in it daily, I would probably need a third box.

--
~kaeli~
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
zuzu22@webtv.net - 17 Nov 2003 19:37 GMT
Magdalene wrote:
>OK--twice in this past week, Chase had
>peed other than where he should. This
>morning was the big lulu--he peed on
>me as I was sleeping.
>I have no idea why. The litterbox is clean,
>he's eating and drinking well, he's been >playing well with Paintball,
so I have no
>reason to believe he's sick.
>Arrrrrgh....any thoughts?

Did it occur to you to take him to a vet? He probably has a urinary
tract infection and innappropriate urination is often the only symptom.
You'd better get it checked out ASAP, because if you don't and he does
have a medical problem, he could block and die.
You've read this newsgroup for quite some time and I am shocked that you
don't know this.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Jeannie - 18 Nov 2003 14:10 GMT
Megan wrote....
> Did it occur to you to take him to a vet? He probably has a urinary
> tract infection and innappropriate urination is often the only symptom.
> You'd better get it checked out ASAP, because if you don't and he does
> have a medical problem, he could block and die.
> You've read this newsgroup for quite some time and I am shocked that you
> don't know this.

I dont think that he "probably" has a urinary tract infection, I would have
thought that a more appropriate word would have been "possibly". Megan, you
seem to be obssessed with UTI's for some reason and you are always telling
people that their cats could die ....Just an observation I wanted to share
after reading several similar posts in this forum.

Everyone seems to be saying that innappropriate urination is triggered by
stress and you mentioned that you had recently been laid off work....so
maybe THAT'S the cause.  He's just not used to you being around all day when
previously you were out at work for a large portion of it.

Jeannie
MaryL - 18 Nov 2003 14:58 GMT
> I dont think that he "probably" has a urinary tract infection, I would have
> thought that a more appropriate word would have been "possibly". Megan, you
> seem to be obssessed with UTI's for some reason and you are always telling
> people that their cats could die ....Just an observation I wanted to share
> after reading several similar posts in this forum.

The problemis that it is essential to rule out UTI *first* because it is
usually easily treated if caught early but an be *fatal* (sometimes quickly)
if left untreated.  Therefore, valuable time can be lost if behavioral
issues are addressed first.

> Everyone seems to be saying that innappropriate urination is triggered by
> stress and you mentioned that you had recently been laid off work....so
> maybe THAT'S the cause.  He's just not used to you being around all day when
> previously you were out at work for a large portion of it.

This, too, is a possibility.  But, as I said, medical issues (including UTI)
should be addressed first -- in much the same way that a person who suddenly
exhibits new and unexpected behavior should first be evaluated by a
physician.

MaryL
zuzu22@webtv.net - 18 Nov 2003 20:14 GMT
> I dont think that he "probably" has a
> urinary tract infection, I would have
> thought that a more appropriate word
> would have been "possibly".

Despite your nitpicking about word usage, the fact that the majority of
cats that exhibit innappropriate urination have a medical reason behind
it makes my use of the word "probable" valid.  

>Megan, you
> seem to be obssessed with UTI's for some
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> reading several similar posts in this
> forum.

That's because an untreated UTI can lead to blockage and death,
especially in males. It's a fact and I don't see why you have an issue
with my posting it. It's important to know and if you've spent any time
on this newsgroup you would have seen the posts from heartbroken people
whose cats died from a blockage because they didn't know any better and
ignored the signs or assumed it was behavioral until it was too late.
Would you rather hold onto that information until things get serious?
Not me, especially since I have seen firsthand what can happen when
signs are ignored and assumed to be behavioral. More than once I have to
rush cats to the vet that I've been petsitting for because their owners
didn't pay attention (fortunately I did) and in one instance was called
by a friend for help only when the cat was blocked and to the point
where he couldn't walk or stand. I believe in "better safe than sorry,"
especially when the problem at hand can be life threatening. It's pretty
sad that you have a problem with that.

> Everyone seems to be saying that
> innappropriate urination is triggered by
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> you were out at work for a large portion
> of it.

I am not the OP and I'll assume this was meant for her. Regardless, you
are speculating and until a medical cause is ruled out it means nothing.
I see you didn't bother to point  that out either.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Jeannie - 19 Nov 2003 10:16 GMT
Megan

I really don't want to get into a flame war with you and I apologise if my
earlier post was a bit harsh but it just seems that everytime I came across
a post from you, you seem to be diagnosing "death by UTI" as the
unquestionable cause of the problem.

I was just commenting that, in my opinion, when your cat pees somewhere
inappropriate, it doesn't USUALLY mean he/she has got a life threatening
illness.  While I agree the OP's problems COULD be the result of a UTI, I
was just pointing out it is also just as likely to be any one of a thousand
other reasons  If you took your cat to the vet everytime he/she did
something
unusual you might as well just move into the surgery!

You obviously are perfectly entitled to your opinion on the matter, but I'm
afraid I just don't agree with you and I think you should respect that.

Jeannie

> > I dont think that he "probably" has a
> > urinary tract infection, I would have
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>
> - W.H. Murray
zuzu22@webtv.net - 19 Nov 2003 15:19 GMT
> I really don't want to get into a flame
> war with you and I apologise if my
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "death by UTI" as the unquestionable
> cause of the problem.

That's not true and I don't appreciate your gross exaggeration. I have
said that a UTI, left untreated, can be deadly. That's completely
accurate.

> I was just commenting that, in my
> opinion, when your cat pees somewhere
> inappropriate, it doesn't USUALLY mean
> he/she has got a life threatening
> illness.

And I already pointed out that the majority of cats that exhibit
innappropriate urination have a medical problem which "can" become life
threatening. Just because you don't think that it's important to point
that out doesn't mean it shouldn't be..

>While I agree the OP's problems
> COULD be the result of a UTI, I was just
> pointing out it is also just as likely
> to be any one of a thousand other
> reasons

And it apparently does not occur to you that the cat can't tell you and
the cat needs to be SEEN BY A VET to determine what's going on.

>If you took your cat to the vet
> everytime he/she did something
> unusual you might as well just move into
> the surgery!

I have never once said one should take the cat to the vet for every
"unusual" thing.  There are degrees of unusual. Maybe you think
innappropriate urination is  a "little" thing, but it's not and there is
no way of knowing if there is a medical cause unless you take the cat to
the vet.

> You obviously are perfectly entitled to
> your opinion on the matter, but I'm
> afraid I just don't agree with you and I
> think you should respect that.

I refuse to respect anyone that doesn't take a health issue seriously
and blows it off or minimizes it. Next time you have a UTI, don't go to
the doctor and don't take anything for the pain, then come here and post
about what a "little" thing it is.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Alison Perera - 19 Nov 2003 16:17 GMT
> That's not true and I don't appreciate your gross exaggeration. I have
> said that a UTI, left untreated, can be deadly. That's completely
> accurate.

OK, but how common is this?

I mean, male cats VERY, VERY seldom get infections in the lower urinary
tract. The long, narrow urethra precludes such problems even as it
predisposes the cat to other problems that arise from sterile cystitis.

Female cats might get them more often, but even if the bacterial
byproducts create such an alkaline urine that it precipitates a stone,
the nature of the female urethra is such that it will VERY, VERY seldom
result in a life-threatening blockage.

So how often does a urinary tract infection threaten the life of a cat,
and by what mechanism? The only means I can think of is some kind of
sepsis from bacterial overgrowth, or translation of the infection to the
kidneys.

Haven't heard much about this happening.

-Alison in OH
Annie Wxill - 19 Nov 2003 17:18 GMT
...> So how often does a urinary tract infection threaten the life of a cat,
> and by what mechanism? The only means I can think of is some kind of
> sepsis from bacterial overgrowth, or translation of the infection to the
> kidneys.
> Haven't heard much about this happening.
> -Alison in OH

I believe that the problem is that the bladder can burst if the blockage is
complete. I don't know how a person at home with a UTI cat could accurately
predict when the infection would progress to that exact moment when the
bladder would burst and the cat would die a terrible death.  Or even if it
would progress to that point or not. So, without taking that cat to the vet,
that person will be risking the cat's life.
So just how often does that happen: what is the risk, you ask. Well, I don't
know how often, but you can be sure that when it does happen, it matters a
lot to the cat who is the unlucky statistic.
But, even if a urinary tract infection is not at the point of being life
threatening, it certainly can affect the cat's ability or willingness to use
the litter box, which is the original problem under discussion here.
Although I sympathize with the person, in my personal opinion, inconvenience
to the owner is not the main point.  More important, the cat will suffer
needlessly and could die if the UTI is not detected and treated, the sooner
the better.
However, let's forget for a moment about the poor misbehaving cat and focus
on the owner.
Taking the cat to the vet at the first sign of a UTI has benefits to the
owner. Some are listed here.
If a UTI is discovered, it can be treated with much less expense sooner than
later.
If a UTI is the cause and is not treated, other approaches to the problem
will not work and the owner will continue to be inconvenienced.
If the UTI is not the problem, the owner can focus on behavior modification.
Taking the cat to the vet does not prevent the owner from looking for
environmental causes and solutions, which have been listed time and time
again on this and other newsgroups.
Annie
---MIKE--- - 19 Nov 2003 17:54 GMT
AFTER a check by the vet, the OP should set up two additional litter
boxes.  The general rule is one for each cat plus one extra.  I'm
surprised nobody has mentioned this.

                 -MIKE
Laura R. - 23 Nov 2003 04:15 GMT
circa Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:17:59 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Alison Perera (ask.me@cwru.edu.invalid) said,
> > That's not true and I don't appreciate your gross exaggeration. I have
> > said that a UTI, left untreated, can be deadly. That's completely
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I mean, male cats VERY, VERY seldom get infections in the lower urinary
> tract.

What is your source for this claim? My own experience, information
provided to me by numerous veterinarians and everything I've ever
read about urinary health issues in cats run contrary to your claim.
This is *not* something that "VERY, VERY seldom" occurs. Urinary
tract infection, inflammation, cystitis and FUS/FLUTD are fairly
common in cats, _particularly_ in males when it comes to crystalline
blockage. To pooh-pooh what should *always* be an owner's first
concern when a cat eliminates inappropriately as "VERY, VERY seldom"
occurring strikes me as a lot more dangerous an assertion to make
than for somebody to jump to warn about possible dangerous infection.

If you don't like the way Megan phrased her posts, that's one thing.
But to turn around and assert what you did is, in my opinion,
irresponsible and contrary.

Laura
Signature

Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster
they call Destiny.
-John Oliver Hobbes

afr - 23 Nov 2003 16:58 GMT
Laura is correct. Although my cat didn't have an infection, the docs were
all looking for that. And FLUTD (formerly caled FUS) is very common. Cats
who "block" can die very quickly. I went to the ER at 10 pm because the ER
told me that if he was blocked, he could be dead by morning.
Their bladders can burst or their kidneys can toxify the body if they
can't urinate.

> circa Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:17:59 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Alison Perera (ask.me@cwru.edu.invalid) said,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> they call Destiny.
> -John Oliver Hobbes
Wendy - 24 Nov 2003 02:39 GMT
Are there usually signals before a cat blocks or can it come on suddenly
with no warning?

Wendy

Laura is correct. Although my cat didn't have an infection, the docs were
all looking for that. And FLUTD (formerly caled FUS) is very common. Cats
who "block" can die very quickly. I went to the ER at 10 pm because the ER
told me that if he was blocked, he could be dead by morning.
Their bladders can burst or their kidneys can toxify the body if they
can't urinate.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Laura R. wrote:

> circa Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:17:59 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Alison Perera (ask.me@cwru.edu.invalid) said,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> they call Destiny.
> -John Oliver Hobbes
kaeli - 24 Nov 2003 13:38 GMT
> Are there usually signals before a cat blocks or can it come on suddenly
> with no warning?

It can come on suddenly with no warning, although I don't know how
common that is.
My Julian died because one morning, I woke up, and he was yelling in
pain, unable to walk. I rushed him to the vet, but it was too late. He'd
gone toxic (I guess the toxins build up in the blood and organs) and
they couldn't save him.
He had seemed perfectly fine the night before.

The vet had done some sort of test on his bladder and told me there were
a ton of crystals in there. One had been big enough to block his
urethra.

(RIP buddy - I still miss ya)

It is possible he had been straining to pee, but he never acted ill and
I never noticed him having problems.
Needless to say, I now regularly check on my kids when they urinate to
see if they are straining at all. I also added wet food to their diet
(as much as I can - they don't much like it, but I'm trying).
Also needless to say, I still blame myself.

--
~kaeli~
A plateau is a high form of flattery.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
afr - 24 Nov 2003 15:32 GMT
Same with George. I changed the litter...nothing unusual that night (urine
in box in morning)...at 10 pm the next night, he was yowling...a tiny cube
of urine in box.

I wondered if it could have been related to the new litter...it was the
usual brand (Fresh Step clumping litter), but with a "new, improved, odor
control formula." I wonder if it somehow irritated him.

I found a box of the old formula when I brought him back from the
hospital.

a.

> > Are there usually signals before a cat blocks or can it come on suddenly
> > with no warning?
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
> http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
bt openworld - 25 Nov 2003 15:02 GMT
Try Waterfall D-mannsoe for your cat's urinary tract infections. Obviously
this doesn't work for blockages though...

www.d-mannose-uk.com

> Laura is correct. Although my cat didn't have an infection, the docs were
> all looking for that. And FLUTD (formerly caled FUS) is very common. Cats
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> > they call Destiny.
> > -John Oliver Hobbes
Steve Crane - 25 Nov 2003 18:42 GMT
> Try Waterfall D-mannsoe for your cat's urinary tract infections. Obviously
> this doesn't work for blockages though...
>
> www.d-mannose-uk.com

I would love to see any data you have to support the use of this in cats.
Jeannie - 20 Nov 2003 09:36 GMT
Geez Megan get a hold of yourself.  I said "you seemed" to diagnose UTI's
often.  That was *my opinion* based on the other posts I had read from you.

My original point was that the OP said that the cat had peed inappropriately
twice in 1 week.  I don't know about your cats but mine go at least twice a
day so I infered that the rest of the pee was done in the litterbox where it
should be.  That suggested to me that the inappropriate peeing was stress
induced rather than the result of a medical issue.  I personally would not
take my cat to the vet based on these 2 incidents alone in the same way that
I wouldn't rush my children to the hospital with suspected meningitis
everytime they had a headache.

I also don't agree with this statement from you

<snip> "And I already pointed out that the majority of cats that exhibit
> innappropriate urination have a medical problem which "can" become life
> threatening."

Now that *is* a gross exageration *in my opinion*

In all my posts I have stressed that the advice I gave was *my opinion* and,
correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what this forum is supposed to be
about.  It is *not* supposed to be about one person giving advice and then
attacking everyone who doesn't agree with their views.

In conclusion, I don't agree with your diagnosis but I appreciate that you
have your own opinions on the matter and have as much right as me to give
advice.  Now, I would be grateful if you would *please* just let it drop.

Jeannie

> > I really don't want to get into a flame
> > war with you and I apologise if my
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> - W.H. Murray
Cathy Friedmann - 23 Nov 2003 04:31 GMT
> Geez Megan get a hold of yourself.  I said "you seemed" to diagnose UTI's
> often.  That was *my opinion* based on the other posts I had read from you.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I wouldn't rush my children to the hospital with suspected meningitis
> everytime they had a headache.

Otoh, I *would* (re: a cat's occasional inappropriate peeing).  My male cat
had a UTI a few years ago.  The only hint I had was that he peed 3 times in
inappropriate places in the time span of perhaps 1? weeks (trying to
remember back): on the cushion in the cat bed, in a cardboard box, & on some
laundry.  The rest of the time he was peeing in the litter box, was not
crying while going, no blood-tinged urine, etc.  The first antibiotic didn't
clear it up; it turned out that he needed a longish course of Baytril (3
weeks, IIRC) to zap it.

> I also don't agree with this statement from you
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Now that *is* a gross exageration *in my opinion*

It may be your opinion, but sorry, it isn't a gross exaggeration.  Male
cats, if they become blocked, will die if not treated *quickly* - like w/in
24 hours. This is really important info for people who have male cats to
know.  If the cat keeps going to the litter box, but with no or very little
results, he needs to be taken to the vet on an emergency basis.  Note, she
didn't say it always is life-threatening, but that it *can* be - and that is
perfectly true.

> In all my posts I have stressed that the advice I gave was *my opinion* and,
> correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what this forum is supposed to be
> about.  It is *not* supposed to be about one person giving advice and then
> attacking everyone who doesn't agree with their views.

In many instances, an opinion - or anecdotal info - is fine.  But
sometimes - & this is one of them - factual information is truly needed.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
afr - 23 Nov 2003 17:20 GMT
cathy,

i meant to be agreeing with you...just read back, and saw you posted these
words.

ava

> > Geez Megan get a hold of yourself.  I said "you seemed" to diagnose UTI's
> > often.  That was *my opinion* based on the other posts I had read from
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> "Staccato signals of constant information..."
> ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
Cathy Friedmann - 23 Nov 2003 18:01 GMT
No prob.  If people independently post the same info, it only underlines the
gist of their comments.  Which can often be a good thing.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

cathy,

i meant to be agreeing with you...just read back, and saw you posted these
words.

ava

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Cathy Friedmann wrote:

> > Geez Megan get a hold of yourself.  I said "you seemed" to diagnose UTI's
> > often.  That was *my opinion* based on the other posts I had read from
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> "Staccato signals of constant information..."
> ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon
zuzu22@webtv.net - 19 Nov 2003 15:32 GMT
Oh, and one more thing, Jeannie:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=uti+death+die&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=01be62d9
%2498f3eaa0%248d3cb08e%40pavilion&rnum=4


It took me exactly 10 seconds to find this. There are more stories just
like this one.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

PawsForThought - 19 Nov 2003 16:51 GMT
>From: zuzu22@webtv.net

>Oh, and one more thing, Jeannie:
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=uti+death+die&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=01be62d9
%2498f3eaa0%248d3cb08e%40pavilion&rnum=4

>
>It took me exactly 10 seconds to find this. There are more stories just
>like this one.

How sad :(
________
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Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Joe Canuck - 17 Nov 2003 20:15 GMT
> OK--twice in this past week, Chase had peed other than where he should.  This
> morning was the big lulu--he peed on me as I was sleeping.  
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Arrrrrgh....any thoughts?

Peeing is never inappropriate, it is the spots that are inappropriate. ;-)

First rule out any medical issue by getting him to a vet for a check, be
sure to mention this peeing outside the box to the vet.

> Magdalene
> IWG #1024/Drill Sgt. of Local 35/Soiled Doves of Colorado
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
> To email me, remove my bodice

Signature

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

SongSylvan - 19 Nov 2003 22:05 GMT
Well, still waiting on the phone call from the vet for the results of Chase's
urinalysis.

And Megan, if you're reading this, kindly refrain from indicating that Chase's
vet is 'clueless' just because she suspected a behavorial problem in his case.
She has taken care of him for six years, not just as his vet, but as the owner
of the kennel he boards at, and she knows his personality a lot better than you
ever will.  She did not rule out a medical problem, but she has been in a
position to witness Chase doing things to express his displeasure.  

In addition, unless I missed something, you do not have a veterinary license,
which  means you're not one to call a vet unknown to you incompetent.

If you want to make suggestions in future, fine, but step down from your
"holier-than-thou" attitude about it.

To those who offered support and were very kind in their suggestions, both
medical and non, thank you.  I'll let you know what's up with him as soon as I
hear back.

Magdalene
IWG #1024/Drill Sgt. of Local 35/Soiled Doves of Colorado
IFoRP # 57/First Mate of "The Flying Scotsman"
KC MasterPiece of the KCRF BBQ Wenches
One of Moonie's Naughty Kittens
Red Gemini Ghetto Smurf
To email me, remove my bodice
Annie Wxill - 20 Nov 2003 01:33 GMT
> Well, still waiting on the phone call from the vet for the results of Chase's
> urinalysis.
...> Magdalene
I hope that you can find a solution to whatever is causing Chase's behavior
and he will start using the box.
Annie
Linda E - 20 Nov 2003 12:01 GMT
> Well, still waiting on the phone call from the vet for the results of Chase's
> urinalysis.

Good luck!  Hope it is something easily treated, be it medical *or*
behavioral!

Linda
kaeli - 20 Nov 2003 14:29 GMT
> To those who offered support and were very kind in their suggestions, both
> medical and non, thank you.  I'll let you know what's up with him as soon as I
> hear back.

I hope you find the problem and a solution. Please keep us posted!  :)

--
~kaeli~
All I ask is the chance to prove that money cannot make me
happy.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
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