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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2003eosinophilic granuloma complex, heat and me venting
hi here's the back ground. in july i got a kitten from a house with at least 30 other cats. she was fairly thin when we got her but she put on weight and was healthy. then i took her to get fixed and was informed that she had an infection in her mouth and they put her on clavamox 2 times daily for 10 days and tested for viral infections which came back negative. on saturday i brought her back to the vet for a check up and the vet said she had really bad gingiviti so i asked what could be done for that and they ran blood tests on the kedneys, liver. well today i phoned the vet and they said she had some complex thing, i'm not sure the name but the white blood cell count was high and that something else was high it think it started with an eth or something like that, i may be wrong anyway what they think she has is normally seen in cat's skin not there mouth's. they said when they spay here they would want to do a biopsy on her mouth, i think send a sample to a patholigist and then grow the bacteria or do a swab or something i wasn't really sure since i was starting to cry. i know this is fairly vague but i was wondering if anyone could tell me what it might be called, i'd call the vet again but i'm crying to much since my parent think i should put her down since it's going to cost another 400 to fix her and then treatment. i refuse to put her down though since i have a job, and sure i will only be able to do a bit at a time i can still treat her. i had to put a cat down 3 years ago because i couldn't afford treatment and i will NOT do that again. she's the best cat ever and i wouldn't even had known she was sick if it weren't for the blood tests. also i was wondering if it is really that bad if she goes into one heat? i mean she is probably ready to go at anytime now but i don't get paid for another 2 weeks and that's when i can afford to have all the other stuff done. so if anyone can give info that would be great, if not then i'll phone the vet tomorrow and research, research, research. i posted on the vet fourm and someone suggested it may be eosinophilic granuloma complex and i think that's what she has. So i was wondering if anyone had a cat with it and if so what tests did you run to see if they acctually had it if any. i would like to do the tests but my parents don't want me to spend 1000 on tests, hey they don't want me to spend 400 on tests. they acctually had the nerve to phone the vet tonight to see what exactly she has and what the prognosis is and all of that, even though i have stated that i am not putting her down. and they have stated that they don't want me spending much money on her if she's sick, my mom didn't even really want me to do the blood work. i mean she's acting normal and she's so young, you wouldn't even know anything was wrong with a her. in fact the vet didn't really suggest blood tests until i asked if there was something that we could do to make sure she was ok for the spay. Are there any low-cost spay/neuter programs in your area? Here's a list of some resources: http://www.savesamoa.org/html/spay_neuter.html#USCan You ask: Is going into heat that bad? Yes, it is. Your cat will be miserable, you will miserable listening to your cat yowl and carry on. She may escape and a) never come back or b) come back with a litter of kittens. It would be ideal if you could get the spaying and biopsy all taken care of at once, but if your parents are being so hard on you about this, and the mouth issue is not extremely time sensitive, I would get the spaying done ASAP. Also, talk to the vet's office and explain the situation with your parents, and find out if they will take a payment plan. Are you over 18? Maybe you could get a credit card with a low credit limit (like $500 or so) and just use it for the kitty's vet bill and pay it off. Congratulations on being a responsible pet owner. I guess you learned it on your own, and not from your parents.  Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net Check out www.snittens.com > hi > here's the back ground. in july i got a kitten from a house with at least [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > vet didn't really suggest blood tests until i asked if there was something > that we could do to make sure she was ok for the spay. circa Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:02:57 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Lauralai (lauralai@mountaincable.net) said, > i posted on the vet fourm and someone suggested it may be eosinophilic > granuloma complex and i think that's what she has. So i was wondering if [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > vet didn't really suggest blood tests until i asked if there was something > that we could do to make sure she was ok for the spay. Unless you're under the age of eighteen, what you do with your money is up to you. On the day Alex's lymphoma diagnosis came in, I called my father and told him that I had decided to at least look into chemo. He started to protest (Alex had cost many, many thousands of dollars in testing and whatnot by then), and I said, "I'd rather have the old cat than the new car." (I'd been contemplating purchasing a rather expensive car before that.) My dad hushed up and never said a word about it again. It's your money, and it's your cat, and you took the responsibility of caring for your cat when you got her, so there is no reason for you to have to defend your actions. With that said, I don't have any experience with eosinophilic granuloma complex, although I was reading bits about it earlier today when I was looking into causes of low lymphocytes in cats. I'll try to remember to note and post the links tomorrow (I'm at a different computer now). Laura SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. Here's more info, here: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_eosinophilic_granuloma.html My cat often gets the pink lower lip in about the 4th photo on that page. Diagnosed by the vet visually, pretty classic, looked just like the photo in his book. Soemtimes you will see sores on the backs of the legs. We were told it was probably an allergic reaction (possibly flea allergy), and was also associated with stress. We've successfully kept it under control (for 1 year) by supplementing his diet with 500mg of the amino acid L-Lysine daily. L-Lysine is used to prevent eruption or shorten appearance of oral herpes (cold sores). I'm not sure why it works. It's also interesting to note that Herpe outbreaks are more likely to occur when an individual is particularly stressed. > hi > here's the back ground. in july i got a kitten from a house with at least [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > vet didn't really suggest blood tests until i asked if there was something > that we could do to make sure she was ok for the spay. >From: Kevin Krell kevin@worldtrad.org >My cat often gets the pink lower lip in about the 4th photo on that >page. Diagnosed by the vet visually, pretty classic, looked just like [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >outbreaks are more likely to occur when an individual is particularly >stressed. Hi Kevin, I'm glad to hear the lysine works for your cat. I'm just curious, do you empty the capsule into his food to give it to him? He doesn't mind the taste? Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm Ours eats both canned & dry food. So we use a canned food with gravy, and mix in the contents of the capsule (yes, emptied out), along with a probiotic. The problem was originally pretty bad when first observed, with the swollen lip interfering with the teeth, etc., so he had a cortisone shot only that first time. While we have some prednisone tablets in case of an outbreak outside convenient vet hours, we have never had to resort to them. If for some reason he focusses on the dry food for a while, and is not eating the supplemented canned food, we'll see a little bit of swollen lip and/or chin. However, it is never severe, and is always controlled when he gets his L-Lysine in. Kevin > >From: Kevin Krell kevin@worldtrad.org > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html > Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: Kevin Krell kevin@worldtrad.org >Ours eats both canned & dry food. So we use a canned food with gravy, >and mix in the contents of the capsule (yes, emptied out), along with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >chin. However, it is never severe, and is always controlled when he >gets his L-Lysine in. That's great to hear, Kevin. I know I've heard about other cats being helped by Lysine too. I just heard that it tasted pretty bitter so wondered how a cat would tolerate it. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > That's great to hear, Kevin. I know I've heard about other cats being helped > by Lysine too. I just heard that it tasted pretty bitter so wondered how a cat > would tolerate it. Laur, when I picked up Cheeks from the shelter the owner gave me a small packet of Lysine and instructed me to add about half a teaspoon to her wet food every day until it ran out. At that point we did not know about her EGC or her asthma. The shelter owner explained that many shelter cats have the rhinovirus and that stress can bring it out of remission and bring on colds. Since relocating is stressful she always gave out Lysine. Pretty sweet. >From: "Mary" rosefan@email.com >> That's great to hear, Kevin. I know I've heard about other cats >being helped [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >of remission and bring on colds. Since relocating is stressful she >always gave out Lysine. Pretty sweet. So Cheeks wasn't bothered by the taste of it? Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Ours eats both canned & dry food. So we use a canned food with gravy, > and mix in the contents of the capsule (yes, emptied out), along with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Kevin Hmm. Could be that I need to get some Lysine for Cheeks. It would be great if it meant fewer Depo shots per year. circa Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:47:45 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Kevin Krell (kevin@worldtrad.org) said, > It's also interesting to note that Herpe > outbreaks are more likely to occur when an individual is particularly > stressed. That's because stress suppresses the immune system. Seriously. Laura SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. > circa Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:47:45 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > Kevin Krell (kevin@worldtrad.org) said, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Laura And why "stresstabs," as vitamins with B-complex and C are generally labeled, can be helpful. C boosts the immune system and B complex aids in cell regeneration and tissue repair. > hi > here's the back ground Get the cat spayed ASAP. Eosinophilic granuloma complex is easily treatable. The vet will only have to look at the lesions to diagnose them. It usually occurrs during an allergic reaction - to fleas, to plastics (such as water bowls), to cleaning supplies or insecticides, or food, so finding out what may be triggering it is key to controlling it. It is a life-long condition. It is treated with prednisone, usually. Good luck, -L. >> hi >> here's the back ground [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Good luck, >-L. I second this. Spaying is important, and I'm not sure why the EGC should prevent that, although of course, your vet should be the final authority on this. I have a cat with EGC, and the info above is what I also understand (actually, I just learned from this post about some of the possible allergens). From what I understand, it is an autoimmune disease, and is generally easily treatable, although treatment may need repeated. My guy's cleared up after a couple of cortisone shots, but is back, so he will need to go back in again to get the shots. Question: can treating it with prednisone tablets every so often prevent it? Just curious on that one. Ginger-lyn > >> hi > >> here's the back ground [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Question: can treating it with prednisone tablets every so often > prevent it? Just curious on that one. Actually the best method of treatment is Depomedrol injection. I wrote pred by mistake as I'm taking pred now. ;p Cortizone derivatives won't "prevent" it, so to speak, but it will make it clear up and stay away for quite awhile - some cats have chronic outbreaks and an allergen cannot be determined. Some vets feel there is an autoimmune response/component to the disease. The bottom line is they don't really know *what* the cause is, though. Kitties can live a long time with it - mine has had hers since she was adopted - 13 years ago. Until now, her outbreaks were well controlled. Lately she has had more of them, possibly dur to failing health with old age. HTH, -L. >Actually the best method of treatment is Depomedrol injection. I >wrote pred by mistake as I'm taking pred now. ;p Cortizone [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >HTH, >-L. Thanks for the info -- much appreciated! Ginger-lyn > >Actually the best method of treatment is Depomedrol injection. I > >wrote pred by mistake as I'm taking pred now. ;p Cortizone [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ginger-lyn I can attest to that, Ginger-lyn. One shot made my cat's bumps disappear three days later. Lauralai, My cat was diagnoses with this a bit over a month ago when I took her in for her regular depo medrol shot for her asthma. I had noticed tiny bumps on the back of her legs, and she had two very small "pimple" like things on her nose, under her fur. The vet said many cats with allergies have this syndrome (eosinophilic granuloma Complex) and that it is not in the least life threatening. Here is what to expect if your cat's experience is like my cat's--three days after the shot of depo medrol the tiny bumps on her nose totally disappeared and the ones on the back of her legs shrank down to almost nothing. I take her in for the shots about four times a year and they cost about $30 each time. If the sores in your kittie's mouth are far along, I understand that the vet may have to give her some antibiotics just to speed healing. And, the vet has to make sure the mouth lesions are not pre-cancerous. But once you have her on regular Depo Medrol shots the lesions should not appear. You will have to be careful to make sure she doesn't get fat, and that you take her for the shots as seldom as possible, because long-term use of steroids like Depo Medrol have side effects that include Diabetes. (Fat cats, like fat people, are prone to get Diabetes, so if she is getting the shots AND is fat she would be of double risk.) Remember that your baby is very lucky to have you to care for her, and that she will be just fine! But had she remained a stray she would have had infected sores and all sorts of problems. > hi > here's the back ground. in july i got a kitten from a house with at least [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > vet didn't really suggest blood tests until i asked if there was something > that we could do to make sure she was ok for the spay. Hi , My cat gets eosinophilic granuloma sometimes on her bottom lip.(pout trout) She allergic to fleas and also flea treatment. It doesnt happen very often and clears up after a Duph Q injection . If it happened more often or didn't clear up the vet would do a biopsy. -- Alison Links to animal information websites http://mysite.freeserve.com/petinfolinks/ > hi > here's the back ground. in july i got a kitten from a house with at least [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > vet didn't really suggest blood tests until i asked if there was something > that we could do to make sure she was ok for the spay. i'm pretty sure that is what it is, complex. apparently it will cost 300 or so for test on top of the spay and then medication after that, to see how sevre it is, doesn't seem that sevre to me but i'm not a vet. i mean apparently it was fairly bad with puss and blood in her mouth when she went to get spayed the first time and she was on clavamox for 10 days so that cleared it up some. she's booked for her spay next friday. my step dad asked about payments also and they will only accept them if you have a valid credit card so that if you don't pay they can charge it, which i don't have and no one that i know of will let me use them other than my sis and she's 3 hours away at school, if she were home she would let me use them though. > hi > here's the back ground. in july i got a kitten from a house with at least [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > vet didn't really suggest blood tests until i asked if there was something > that we could do to make sure she was ok for the spay. > i'm pretty sure that is what it is, complex. My cat Shamrock was "diagnosed" with EGC because he tested negative on all other causes for his reactions (IOW, ruled out other probably causes). His sores were not in his mouth, but raised sores on his torso and the base of his tail. His vet didn't test further because she said the treatment would be the same for a formal diagnosis of EGC or an allergic reaction, and opted to treat him with Depo (steroid) shots. In the beginning it could mean shots every two weeks or so but they aren't expensive. It could also be combined with AB treatment (which the other vet wanted to keep doing without steroids) depending on the severity. My Shamrocks new vet doesn't prescribe ABs with the steroids but it took subsequent visits within weeks to determine that. Depending on the vet they might wave office visit fees for follow-ups but unfortunately mine doesn't. But I like her better than the previous vet who never even mentioned EGC. > > i'm pretty sure that is what it is, complex. > > My cat Shamrock was "diagnosed" with EGC because he tested negative on > all other causes for his reactions (IOW, ruled out other probably > causes). His sores were not in his mouth, but raised sores on his > torso and the base of his tail. Your poor baby. I am so glad Cheeky doesn't have the sores--though I imagine she might one day. Hopefully not if I keep up the Depo Medrol, and i have to for her asthma. It is so weird that they really don't know what causes this complex--but good that they can treat it. I am going to work harder to keep allergens out of the house, maybe that will help. > Your poor baby. I am so glad Cheeky doesn't have the sores--though I > imagine she might one day. Thanks, Mary. It's been pure hell watching him go through this and only finding relief in depo shots. I have a new theory that may reak of tinfoil hats and black helicopters to some but I can't ignore it now. I've had nothing but health troubles for my cats since I bought my current house. Before I bought the house I never knew the things I know now and my cats are on decent diets but they are still having problems I've never seen before. I got a fish over the weekend (a Betta) and after 3 days it died. :( I used the water treatment that neutralizes chlorine. But it still died. Granted, it could have already been sick before I got it but I can't help but wonder if my tap water is to blame for all of my cats problems. I've switched them all over to spring water and will have the water company test my water for any impurities. I only drink spring water when I'm home so I am not a good indicator, plus cats are so much smaller and their liver and kidneys are different from ours. Like I said.. may be a dead-end and paranoid-sounding theory, but I have no other clue. Hopefully not if I keep up the Depo > Medrol, and i have to for her asthma. It is so weird that they > really don't know what causes this complex--but good that they can > treat it. I am going to work harder to keep allergens out of the > house, maybe that will help. Best to Cheeky and purrs that she finds long-term relief. >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com > I've had nothing but health troubles for my cats since I bought >my current house. Before I bought the house I never knew the things I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >already been sick before I got it but I can't help but wonder if my >tap water is to blame for all of my cats problems. Sorry to hear about your fish, Cheryl :( Have you ever had your house tested for black mold? Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >> From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Sorry to hear about your fish, Cheryl :( > Have you ever had your house tested for black mold? I've been thinking about that. I started asking about it in a post in another thread earlier but I don't know what to ask for, who to ask, or what to look out for when having an inspector in. As I posted, I had termites and I do believe termites and moisture go hand in hand. I monitor the RH level in my downstairs and run a dehumidifier. I should go ask about this in the alt dot home dot repair group. I am highly allergic to mold, though, and I don't feel any ill effects myself in the house. >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com >99@mb-m29.aol.com, >PawsForThought <darnit7@aol.comnolitter> composed with style: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >highly allergic to mold, though, and I don't feel any ill effects >myself in the house. There's a home repair group? I need to check that out :) I guess if you did have black mold, as you say your own allergies would be acting up. Although maybe it's not that severe, but cats, being much smaller than us, might be affected by it? I don't know. It's interesting though that the cats' problems didn't start until you moved into the new house. No new clearning products or cat litter? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > There's a home repair group? I need to check that out :) There seems to be a group for most everything. :) That group is super-busy. > I guess if you did have black mold, as you say your own allergies > would be acting up. Although maybe it's not that severe, but cats, > being much smaller than us, might be affected by it? I don't know. > It's interesting though that the cats' problems didn't start until > you moved into the new house. No new clearning products or cat > litter? Nope. Nothing new but the house. My brother (who I bought the house from ) has a poodle and he never had any problems that I know of. The basement room with the furnace has unfinished cement walls with exposed insulation and there isn't any mold in there but I wonder about between the walls downstairs. The furnace room door is always shut. There is some opening to outside since every fall I get tons of ladybugs that get in but I can't find it. >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com >PawsForThought <darnit7@aol.comnolitter> composed with style: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >shut. There is some opening to outside since every fall I get tons of >ladybugs that get in but I can't find it. Does your clothes dryer vent to the outside? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Does your clothes dryer vent to the outside? Yes. I also just had to replace the foil tube-thing after having to move the dryer. I'm seriously perplexed. >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com >PawsForThought <darnit7@aol.comnolitter> composed with style: > >> Does your clothes dryer vent to the outside? > >Yes. I also just had to replace the foil tube-thing after having to >move the dryer. I'm seriously perplexed. I had bees get in my last house through a hole in the bricks, then through the wall somehow. It was the first time in my life that I got stung by a bee, when I stepped on one in my living room. So maybe you have some sort of hole or opening where the ladybugs are getting in? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >> From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > maybe you have some sort of hole or opening where the ladybugs are > getting in? They don't get in that room -- they get in the furnace room. The apt I used to live in had a fall season with bees getting in somehow, I think it was the vent system. I woke up one morning to bees flying around my bedroom. yowie. I never got stung but I think Marley or Shadow did. They steered clear of the bees (or else cats have an instinct to stay away from them?). Once reported, maintenance took down a huge hive outside below and they didn't get in anymore. It didn't change /how/ they got in, just that there weren't as many outside to get in. BTW, I think those LBs were a copycat or something. I got bit by a few. lol No one believes that. >From: "Cheryl" jlhshadow@devnull.hotmail.com >BTW, I think those LBs were a copycat or something. I got bit by a >few. lol No one believes that. Yikes! LOL ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > i'm pretty sure that is what it is, complex. apparently it will cost 300 or > so for test on top of the spay and then medication after that, to see how > sevre it is, doesn't seem that sevre to me but i'm not a vet. i mean > apparently it was fairly bad with puss and blood in her mouth when she went > to get spayed the first time and she was on clavamox for 10 days so that > cleared it up some. I'm glad it has cleared up a bit. The problem apparently is when the ulcers get infected they can destroy tissue. I imagine the vet wisely put off the spay on the chance the infection in your poor kitty's mouth might travel into her blood stream or somehow carry over into the surgery site. 300 for tests sounds high, especially since this complex is so easily recognizable. But the good news is, your new baby will be just fine, and once you get it under control you will scarcely know there is anything wrong with her. Bless you for taking care of this sweet little thing. Let us see some photos of her when you get some! Good luck with everything. |
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