Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / August 2005
"The Perricone Promise" - OT
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CatNipped - 04 Aug 2005 00:59 GMT Has anyone heard of the above diet book?
I have been researching "holistic" things I could do that might help me with my fibromyalgia. Happens that this guy was on "Oprah" on a show about the new anti-aging technology. He claims that the signs of aging are caused buy inflammation at the cellular level"
Here's an excerpt from chapter one.
"When I wrote The Wrinkle Cure and The Perricone Prescription, I introduced the Inflammation-Aging Connection-the concept that inflammation at the cellular level is the single most powerful cause of the signs of aging. That's not to mention the correlation between inflammation and such chronic diseases as arthritis, diabetes, Alzheimer's, cancer, and strokes. "
OK, I don't think a diet is going to make me look like a 30-year-old, but the diet itself isn't a "fad one" - not unreasonable restrictions on fat, carbs, etc. But if there is *anything* to the food-inflammation connection, I got to thinking it might be good, if not for my fibro, then maybe for my degenerative disk disease.
In any case he instructs you to eat plenty of foods high in anti-oxidants, avoid sugar, plenty of fresh fruits and veggies, and green tea, so I figure it can't hurt.
I ordered the book on Amazon, but was wondering if anyone else had any knowledge or experience with this diet.
Hugs,
CatNipped
Jo Firey - 04 Aug 2005 01:07 GMT > Has anyone heard of the above diet book? > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > CatNipped You aren't going to find a dietary cure. But the things you mentioned certainly won't hurt you and should make you feel better.
I just started the sub-lingual B vitamins someone here mentioned. Way too soon to say they are great, but I did get a lot done the last few days. Another "can't hurt, might help"
I'm managing to avoid sugar. Wish I could kick white flour.
Jo
CatNipped - 04 Aug 2005 01:07 GMT > > Has anyone heard of the above diet book? > > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > soon to say they are great, but I did get a lot done the last few days. > Another "can't hurt, might help" That was me! Yeah, the sublingual B vitamins give me *enormous* amounts of energy - give 'em about a week to 10 days to start kicking in good.
Hugs,
CatNipped
> I'm managing to avoid sugar. Wish I could kick white flour. > > Jo W. Leong - 04 Aug 2005 01:52 GMT >> Has anyone heard of the above diet book? >> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > soon to say they are great, but I did get a lot done the last few days. > Another "can't hurt, might help" What is sub-lingual B vitamins? What is the difference between it and 'regular' vitamin B? I have been taking a vitamin B complex pill evey day for years.
Winnie
> I'm managing to avoid sugar. Wish I could kick white flour. > > Jo CatNipped - 04 Aug 2005 02:14 GMT > >> Has anyone heard of the above diet book? > >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > 'regular' > vitamin B? I have been taking a vitamin B complex pill evey day for years. When I had my gastric bypass surgery they told me that I would either have to get a B Complex vitamin shot every month or take the sub-lingual B Complex vitamins every day - so I'm guessing they're equivalent. I've heard that B vitamins are hard (or maybe impossible?) to absorb through the stomach (Howard?).
All I know is that I have *never* had so much energy in my entire life - not even when I was a kid (and that's saying something for a person with ADHD!). ;>
BTW, you can get the sublingual B Complex vitamins at Walgreens for about $5 for a 2 - 3 month supply.
Hugs,
CatNipped
> Winnie > > > I'm managing to avoid sugar. Wish I could kick white flour. > > > > Jo Howard C. Berkowitz - 04 Aug 2005 03:14 GMT > > >> Has anyone heard of the above diet book? > > >> [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > that B vitamins are hard (or maybe impossible?) to absorb through the > stomach (Howard?). B12 specifically. For pernicious anemia, which is an inefficiency of the absorption of B12 (a deficiency in something called "intrinsic factor"), the first therapy was eating large amounts of raw liver. While that might be heavenly for a cat, many patients literally preferred to die. Ironically, the Nobel Prize for the treatment of pernicious anemia was given for a slightly more palatable liver extract treatment, before B12 was discovered. Therapy next moved to injected B12.
Not all that long ago, it was discovered that even without intrinsic factor, some B12 is absorbed. Treatment of pernicious anemia moved to giving massive overdoses of B12, since there are no known negative side effects to overdoses of any B vitamin except B6. Taking 100mg or so a day of B1, incidentally, will turn urine bright yellow and give a "vitamin" smell to your skin -- but that smell is an excellent insect repellent.
With your reduced stomach area, you probably don't have enough surface to absorb adequate B12, even if you have normal intrinsic factor.
> All I know is that I have *never* had so much energy in my entire life - > not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > $5 > for a 2 - 3 month supply. Sublingual drugs pass directly from mouth tissues into the blood, almost as fast as an injection. Nasal sprays are also becoming more common.
badwilson - 04 Aug 2005 05:03 GMT > B12 specifically. For pernicious anemia, which is an inefficiency of > the absorption of B12 (a deficiency in something called "intrinsic [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > or so a day of B1, incidentally, will turn urine bright yellow and > give a "vitamin" smell to your skin -- but that smell is an excellent
> insect repellent. > > With your reduced stomach area, you probably don't have enough surface > to absorb adequate B12, even if you have normal intrinsic factor. A few years ago, I decided to take some B12 supplements. Not the sublingual ones, just regular pills. Well, after a few days, I broke out in a nasty itchy rash all over my body. Stopped taking the B12 and the rash went away. Now I just take a regular multivitamin and everything's ok. Weird. -- Britta "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
Howard C. Berkowitz - 04 Aug 2005 06:39 GMT > > B12 specifically. For pernicious anemia, which is an inefficiency of > > the absorption of B12 (a deficiency in something called "intrinsic [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > and the rash went away. Now I just take a regular multivitamin and > everything's ok. Weird. Were these white or a clear capsule, or somehow colored? Some dyes used in medications, especially tartrazine (Yellow #5) can trigger asthmatic attacks and have allergic sensitivities.
badwilson - 04 Aug 2005 12:02 GMT >>> B12 specifically. For pernicious anemia, which is an inefficiency of >>> the absorption of B12 (a deficiency in something called "intrinsic [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > used in medications, especially tartrazine (Yellow #5) can trigger > asthmatic attacks and have allergic sensitivities. I don't remember now, it was a few years ago. But I do take a whole bunch of other vitamins and have never had a problem with anything other than B12. -- Britta "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
W. Leong - 04 Aug 2005 03:52 GMT Sounds like sub-lingual B vitamins has a faster absorption. I don't even recall why I started taking B vitmain complex, probably on recommendation from a doctor. Think I just stick with my garden variety B complex since I don't have specific needs for it. Besides, no Walgreen in Catnada.
Winnie
>> >> Has anyone heard of the above diet book? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] >> > >> > Jo Jo Firey - 04 Aug 2005 03:16 GMT >> Has anyone heard of the above diet book? >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Jo Vitamin B-12 can be very difficult for many people to absorb. Especially those with gastric problems or the elderly. Pills don't help, cause they still can't absorb it that way. I don't know that much about it, but I know my mom got monthly B-12 shots for years after she retired and swore by them. So does my sister-in-law who is an RN who specializes in elder care.
Evidently you can absorb it in liquid form under your tongue. I learned that here from CatNipped. So I got some a few days ago at WalMart and have been trying it. It's a not unpleasant tasting liquid and you just put a dropper full under your tongue. Now if I can just get Charlie to try it.
Jo
Monique Y. Mudama - 04 Aug 2005 01:22 GMT > In any case he instructs you to eat plenty of foods high in > anti-oxidants, avoid sugar, plenty of fresh fruits and veggies, and > green tea, so I figure it can't hurt. All of that sounds good; be careful with the green tea, as it does have caffeine.
I've been trying to avoid sweets. Today the bowls at work have lollipops in them. My favorite! Despite my team lead slurping on them in plain view, I've managed thus far to resist. I figure if I resist today, they'll be gone by tomorrow and I won't have to worry about it any more.
 Signature monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully
pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca
Annie Wxill - 04 Aug 2005 02:00 GMT ...>
> All of that sounds good; be careful with the green tea, as it does > have caffeine. ...
> monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully I drink decaffeinated green tea and some herbal teas, which naturally do not have caffeine. Annie
W. Leong - 05 Aug 2005 03:30 GMT >> In any case he instructs you to eat plenty of foods high in >> anti-oxidants, avoid sugar, plenty of fresh fruits and veggies, and >> green tea, so I figure it can't hurt. > > All of that sounds good; be careful with the green tea, as it does > have caffeine. There are also decaff. green tea.
> I've been trying to avoid sweets. Today the bowls at work have > lollipops in them. My favorite! Despite my team lead slurping on > them in plain view, I've managed thus far to resist. I figure if I > resist today, they'll be gone by tomorrow and I won't have to worry > about it any more. Monique Y. Mudama - 06 Aug 2005 05:30 GMT >>> In any case he instructs you to eat plenty of foods high in >>> anti-oxidants, avoid sugar, plenty of fresh fruits and veggies, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > There are also decaff. green tea. Sure, but you have to specifically look for decaf. Standard green tea is caff.
 Signature monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully
pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca
Howard C. Berkowitz - 04 Aug 2005 01:36 GMT > Has anyone heard of the above diet book? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > buy > inflammation at the cellular level" I'm afraid that comes across as gibberish. It's not especially meaningful to speak of inflammation at the level of an individual cell; it's more of a tissue-level, multiple-cell issue at the simplest. To get more specific into things we actually understand, pain, even if blocked from consciousness but not with full anesthesia, causes the autonomic system to release inflammatory transmitters called prostaglandins -- which cause more pain. The survival benefit of this seemingly perverse mechanism appears to be "self-splinting" by forcing one to hold an injured part rigid.
I'd want an explanation of how the known inflammatory substances work in his model, and how diet affects them. Prostaglandins. Kallikrein. Leukotrienes. Bradykinin. Interleukins. Histamines. Tumor necrosis factor alpha...and so forth.
CatNipped - 04 Aug 2005 01:38 GMT > > Has anyone heard of the above diet book? > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Leukotrienes. Bradykinin. Interleukins. Histamines. Tumor necrosis > factor alpha...and so forth. Yeah, I read more about it* after I posted here and decided to cancel my Amazon order. But you've made it easier to understand *why* it sounds like gibberish.
*It seems the diet consists of a lot of *expensive* supplements - preferably his brand - and things I *know* I won't eat or drink.
Hugs,
CatNipped
Jo Firey - 04 Aug 2005 01:53 GMT > To get > more specific into things we actually understand, pain, even if blocked [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mechanism appears to be "self-splinting" by forcing one to hold an > injured part rigid. That is one of the most enlightening things I've read in a long time. As in WOW.
I have a type of inflammatory arthritis. Now at least I have some understanding of why I have stiff joints. Not the prostaglandins stuff. That I knew. But I'd never heard or thought of the concept of "self splinting".
Jo
Howard C. Berkowitz - 04 Aug 2005 03:08 GMT > > To get > > more specific into things we actually understand, pain, even if blocked [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in > WOW. It is one of my fond hopes that as new doctors are trained and enter practice, there will be more and more knowledge of the science (and art) of pain management. Unfortunately, the understanding of many of the mechanisms of pain are recent enough that older practicing physicians, who don't keep up with current research, simply aren't aware of it.
The subspecialty of pain medicine doesn't get the respect it should. Melzack and Wall, who discovered the fundamental mechanism that causes people to become aware of pain, as well as many of the secondary effects of pain transmission, IMNSHO, deserved a Nobel Prize. AFAIK, no pain researcher has ever been in serious consideration for the Nobel Prize in Medicine or Physiology.
> I have a type of inflammatory arthritis. Now at least I have some > understanding of why I have stiff joints. Not the prostaglandins stuff. > That I knew. But I'd never heard or thought of the concept of "self > splinting". The particular mechanisms I was talking about is directly associated with muscle tissue, but I see no reason why a joint inflammation couldn't cause it. The particular pathway that I was talking about comes from the "lower" brain in response to pain in soft tissue, but the same inflammatory substances are released from arthritic joints.
Prostaglandins, incidentally, cause uterine contractions, and they have been used to induce abortion or labor. By taking a prostaglandin antagonist before the crampy stage of the menstrual cycle, so there's a blood level before the prostaglandins hit, often can avoid or minimize cramps.
So, the muscles around the joint could go into spasm from the same chemicals, but released from the joint rather than the brain. Ibuprofen, naproxen, and prescription NSAIDs block the enzymes (COX-1 and COX-2) that produces these irritants. Aspirin does as well, but has somewhat different mechanisms.
It turns out, however, that not all the products of the two enzymes are bad. Some of the products of COX-1 produce the mucus that normally protects the stomach wall. When you suppress COX-1, you take away protection from acid, which is why aspirin and NSAIDs upset the stomach. The newer selective inhibitors of COX-2 only, such as Vioxx and Celebrex, allow the stomach protection to work normally.
Nothing in pain pharmacology tends to be simple. Some people only get pain relief from COX-2 inhibitors, enough that the US Food and Drug Administration approved their being used again, with lots of warning and cardiac monitoring. We understand why COX-2 inhibitors prevent stomach upset, but we are not sure why they are especially effective for pain relief in some, but not all, patients. Like many drugs, there is a delicate balance between risk and benefit.
Acetaminophen (Tylenol), or paracetamol across the pond, does not block COX enzymes except in the brain. This is why it has less of a general anti-inflammatory action than the other drugs. It does block pain, however, which, in turn, can block the secondary brain-directed release of prostaglandins in muscle tissue. This may give the effect of decreasing inflammation, but it's really a matter of preventing inflammation.
Monique Y. Mudama - 04 Aug 2005 15:06 GMT > Prostaglandins, incidentally, cause uterine contractions, and they > have been used to induce abortion or labor. By taking a > prostaglandin antagonist before the crampy stage of the menstrual > cycle, so there's a blood level before the prostaglandins hit, often > can avoid or minimize cramps. Er, where did you say I could get this stuff, again?
After years of Depo (no period, so no cramps), cramps are back in my life, about as welcome as a long-lost creditor.
 Signature monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully
pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca
W. Leong - 04 Aug 2005 15:58 GMT >> Prostaglandins, incidentally, cause uterine contractions, and they >> have been used to induce abortion or labor. By taking a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > After years of Depo (no period, so no cramps), cramps are back in my > life, about as welcome as a long-lost creditor. My doctor prescribed Anaprox ( which is the same as Aleve in U.S.) for menstrual cramps. I took it for years and it worked.
Winnie
Monique Y. Mudama - 04 Aug 2005 17:52 GMT > My doctor prescribed Anaprox ( which is the same as Aleve in U.S.) > for menstrual cramps. I took it for years and it worked. Yeah, I've noticed an effect from Aleve, but I wonder about this other stuff ... always on the hunt for better!
 Signature monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully
pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca
W. Leong - 04 Aug 2005 18:28 GMT Anaprox or Aleve is a prostaglandin antagonist as described by Howard B.. Thats the way it was explained to me by my doc or pharmacist. My Anaprox dosage was quite high - 500 mg I think, maybe higher than the OTC Aleve, as Anaprox is presciption only in Canada. I only took it for a day or 2 every month.
Winnie
>> My doctor prescribed Anaprox ( which is the same as Aleve in U.S.) >> for menstrual cramps. I took it for years and it worked. > > Yeah, I've noticed an effect from Aleve, but I wonder about this other > stuff ... always on the hunt for better! Howard C. Berkowitz - 04 Aug 2005 20:12 GMT > Anaprox or Aleve is a prostaglandin antagonist as described by Howard B.. > Thats the way it was explained to me by my doc or pharmacist. > My Anaprox dosage was quite high - 500 mg I think, > maybe higher than the OTC Aleve, as > Anaprox is presciption only in Canada. I only took it for a day or 2 > every month. Looking at my OTC bottle of Aleve, they are 220 mg tablets. The instructions say to start, optionally, with two, and then one thereafter. I take two whenever I use it, so you have 440mg versus the prescription 500mg.
> Winnie > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yeah, I've noticed an effect from Aleve, but I wonder about this other > > stuff ... always on the hunt for better! W. Leong - 04 Aug 2005 20:59 GMT I checked my bottle of Anaprox. It is 550 mg. I take one every 12 hours for cramps for a day or 2. Also took it when I hurt my back many years ago. I stocked up when I was laid off from Nortel and still had drug insurance for a month or so. So I have no idea how much it costs.
Winnie
>> Anaprox or Aleve is a prostaglandin antagonist as described by Howard B.. >> Thats the way it was explained to me by my doc or pharmacist. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> > Yeah, I've noticed an effect from Aleve, but I wonder about this other >> > stuff ... always on the hunt for better! Howard C. Berkowitz - 04 Aug 2005 20:11 GMT > > My doctor prescribed Anaprox ( which is the same as Aleve in U.S.) > > for menstrual cramps. I took it for years and it worked. > > Yeah, I've noticed an effect from Aleve, but I wonder about this other > stuff ... always on the hunt for better! At least for injuries, I find naproxen somewhat superior. For preventing menstrual cramps, it's probably a tossup. Ibuprofen is primarily a pain reliever, rather than a true anti-inflammatory, at the over the counter dose of 400mg three times a day. The accepted anti-inflammatory dose is 800mg three times a day.
Assuming two tablets,the OTC and RX doses of naproxen are pretty much the same.
Howard C. Berkowitz - 04 Aug 2005 20:07 GMT > >> Prostaglandins, incidentally, cause uterine contractions, and they > >> have been used to induce abortion or labor. By taking a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > My doctor prescribed Anaprox ( which is the same as Aleve in U.S.) for > menstrual cramps. I took it for years and it worked. Same chemical family (generic naproxen) as ibuprofen, and has the advantage of needing to be taken only every 12 hours. I can't figure out why, but it's prescription in Canada. While they are generally interchangeable, naproxen is more convenient, more expensive, and possibly a slightly better pain reliever.
The over-the-counter dose calls for a loading dose of two tablets and then one every 12 hours, but that, again, is conservative. I've been taking two twice daily for my sprained wrist and miscellaneous other bruises/strains, and that's actually below the common prescription dose.
Veering, was it RPCA or another newsgroup where people were complaining about testosterone storms in threads? From my perspective of having a Y chromosome, I am suppressing, not very well, a big grin in this thread.
CatNipped - 04 Aug 2005 20:11 GMT > > >> Prostaglandins, incidentally, cause uterine contractions, and they > > >> have been used to induce abortion or labor. By taking a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > about testosterone storms in threads? From my perspective of having a Y > chromosome, I am suppressing, not very well, a big grin in this thread. As much as you know about the female of the species (and their icky problems), I think we should give you an honorary Y chromosome! ;>
Hugs,
CatNipped
Howard C. Berkowitz - 04 Aug 2005 21:05 GMT > > > >> Prostaglandins, incidentally, cause uterine contractions, and they > > > >> have been used to induce abortion or labor. By taking a [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > As much as you know about the female of the species (and their icky > problems), I think we should give you an honorary Y chromosome! ;> Ummm...I think that's an extra X.
Sadly, there is so much of a lack of information. My ex used a very good gynecologist, who was a strong believer in education. Something she would do, after privately making TOTALLY sure her patient was OK with it, would be to instruct the male partner in performing a basic pelvic examination, or at least some detailed anatomical instructions. I suspect she didn't do the exam training unless the husband already had a substantial knowledge of anatomy. She also tested the man by having (again with permission) be present during her exams, at least holding his partner's hand and not being upset by the procedure.
I found it to be bonding as well as instructional, and also occasionally useful for ..umm..a bit of home maintenance or diagnosis of uncomfortable bits. My ex had numerous chronic medical problems, and I will admit it was a bit stretchy when she went in for a postoperative office visit on a Saturday, there were significant problems with the incision, and I got pressed into service as first assistant. I got a little lightheaded, but I had also been up for 26 hours and hadn't eaten in 18. More than once afterwards, with other doctors in other situations, I found myself again as crisis assistant, and remained focused.
On another occasion, I was in a sexuality seminar run by the Lifespring organization, and one small group exercise was to take large sheets of paper, and draw and label the parts of the genital systems of both sexes. I remember one female friend, known as a sexual adventuress, to turned to me more than once and asked, "Howard, do I really have one of those?" At least theoretically, I confirmed that she was supposed to be issued with one.
CatNipped - 04 Aug 2005 21:05 GMT > > > > >> Prostaglandins, incidentally, cause uterine contractions, and they > > > > >> have been used to induce abortion or labor. By taking a [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > > Ummm...I think that's an extra X. LOL! Oops!
Hugs,
CatNipped
> Sadly, there is so much of a lack of information. My ex used a very good > gynecologist, who was a strong believer in education. Something she [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > those?" At least theoretically, I confirmed that she was supposed to be > issued with one. Monique Y. Mudama - 04 Aug 2005 20:52 GMT > The over-the-counter dose calls for a loading dose of two tablets > and then one every 12 hours, but that, again, is conservative. I've > been taking two twice daily for my sprained wrist and miscellaneous > other bruises/strains, and that's actually below the common > prescription dose. Yup, that's what I was doing for a few weeks with my sprained wrist. Which seems to finally be almost all better, but not quite.
 Signature monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully
pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca
Howard C. Berkowitz - 04 Aug 2005 20:04 GMT > > Prostaglandins, incidentally, cause uterine contractions, and they > > have been used to induce abortion or labor. By taking a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > After years of Depo (no period, so no cramps), cramps are back in my > life, about as welcome as a long-lost creditor. 400mg of ibuprofen (Advil, etc.) every 6 hours, starting a couple of days before you expect your cramps to start -- you want the drug in your blood suppressing the prostaglandins when the surge starts. It is important to take it regularly, although I wouldn't get up at night to get an exact 6 hour offset.
Unless this upsets your stomach, it's quite safe unless you have liver or kidney problems. While the well-established dangerous interaction is between acetaminophen/paracetamol and even light drinking, other preliminary data suggests it's wise to avoid alcohol completely while taking an NSAID.
There really isn't hard data, but I know several gynecologists that think an ordinary-strength B-complex pill, and 400 units a day of Vitamin E, may help. Stronger evidence exists for the Vitamin E helping breast discomfort.
jmcquown - 04 Aug 2005 03:44 GMT > Has anyone heard of the above diet book? No, but I know someone whose last name is Perricone and for a minute I thought maybe you knew her! LOL
Jill
badwilson - 04 Aug 2005 04:58 GMT I haven't heard about this diet specifically, but when Dennis was still dealing with his back problems, his chiropractor in Bangkok (excellent guy, from California, best chiro ever) recommended for Dennis to eat a "low inflammation" diet. He recommended the same foods you mention and also no caffeine and you should eat half a bag of frozen soy beans (edamame) per day. Dennis never did it because he's a coffee addict, but I fell in love with the edamame and still eat it :-) -- Britta "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
> Has anyone heard of the above diet book? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > OK, I don't think a diet is going to make me look like a 30-year-old, > but the diet itself isn't a "fad one" - not unreasonable restrictions
> on fat, carbs, etc. But if there is *anything* to the > food-inflammation connection, I got to thinking it might be good, if [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > CatNipped
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