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Going to the Doctor

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jmcquown - 27 Jun 2005 14:17 GMT
I verified my medical insurance is in force.  I'm going to take a brief nap,
then bathe and drive myself to Baptist Hospital East after I pick up a
couple of books at Walgreen's.  I think I can expect to sit there a while; I
don't know about you but I *never* count decent reading material in a
waiting room of any kind.  I need a murder mystery or legal thriller.  But
let's hope my visit won't end in a murder or some sort of legal
entanglement!  LOL

I'll call Scott right before I go just in case I can't get back to take care
of Persia and Peaches.  Hopefully he will come through if necessary.
Hopefully it won't be necessary.

Jill
Signature

I used to have a handle on life...but it broke off.

Pat - 27 Jun 2005 14:27 GMT
Jill, from your symptom description it sounds to me like a a chiropractor
could be helpful. There's a real good one in South Haven MS, Bill
Richardson, worth going out of the way to see.
Howard C. Berkowitz - 27 Jun 2005 16:56 GMT
> Jill, from your symptom description it sounds to me like a a chiropractor
> could be helpful. There's a real good one in South Haven MS, Bill
> Richardson, worth going out of the way to see.

Sorry, but NOOOOOOOOO! until cardiac or chest wall problems have been
ruled out. While I believe chiropractors can be a valid part of a health
team, they are not trained or equipped to rule out internal disease.

This is a fairly hot button for me, as I lost a stepfather-in-law that
had become much like a father to me, because he took his "backache" to a
chiropractor.  We all have "if-onlys" in our life, and this is one of
them.  Normally, we talked to him about every 1-2 weeks, but had missed
a call.

He had been going to his chiropractor complaining of a certain kind of
pain. The chiropractor kept adjusting.

When Clay finally called and described his pain, I instantly recognized
it as a type that's usually characteristic of a severe problem with an
internal organ. I urged him to get to an ER, and he admitted he was
calling from a hospital bed.  Anyone with any level of physical
examination training should have recognized the description of visceral
(organ) pain. The chiropractor apparently didn't have such minimal
training.

He died the next day, from a ruptured aortic aneurysm.  At the time,
there were no open-heart facilities in his city, but Houston was a
couple of hours away.  At the time, even if the aneurysm was detected
and operated on before it blew, he still had only a 50% chance of
survival -- which is much better than none.

I use chiropractic myself, but ONLY after a physician has ruled out
organic disease.
sriddles@aol.com - 27 Jun 2005 17:10 GMT
> He died the next day, from a ruptured aortic aneurysm.  At the time,
> there were no open-heart facilities in his city, but Houston was a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I use chiropractic myself, but ONLY after a physician has ruled out
> organic disease.

Thank you, thank you Howard. I had the same thought but blew it off. I
think the chances that Jill has a cardiac problem are minimal, with her
age--I was about the same age as Jill but my mother had died at 42 from
cardiovascular stuff--big difference. You gotta check it out anyway.
Note to Jill: Cardio testing isn't bad at all. Then when it checks out
fine, and I bet it does, they'll look at other possible causes.
Your aneurysm story is awful. I am shocked that the chiropractor isn't
qualified to check for that. My father has an AAA that is, I think 3.5
cm, not big enough to operate yet. *I* can even feel it.

Sherry
Howard C. Berkowitz - 27 Jun 2005 18:29 GMT
> > He died the next day, from a ruptured aortic aneurysm.  At the time,
> > there were no open-heart facilities in his city, but Houston was a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> age--I was about the same age as Jill but my mother had died at 42 from
> cardiovascular stuff--big difference.

My father at 42 as well, after a number of years of being a cardiac
cripple. Given he was getting into TV production in Hollywood at the
time, that's nasty place and profession where you can't exert even for
pleasant reasons.

IIRC, I was 39 when I had my first attack of angina (I'm 56 now). It
presented rather atypically -- I don't think I was in denial for the 2
hours it took to recognize.  We had gone out to dinner with an Indian
speaking friend who was able to tell the staff, in Hindi, "no, these are
crazy Americans. Make the food Indian hot."  At first, I thought it
might be indigestion, but I couldn't imagine I had been bested by mere
peppers.

Then, it felt more like a shoulder injury.  One of the confusing things
is the pain started in my back, not in my chest. I tried hot packs on my
shoulder, and realized that I was sweating a lot -- even if I took the
pack off. The pain increased, and then I remember (in the bathtub) going
through a mental checklist -- increased sweating, pain now in the
shoulder radiating down the arm and across the chest -- OH S**T.

I got out of the tub, pulled on minimal clothing, then called 911. As I
did so, the pain got BAD. I was lying on the floor next to the phone,
and answered thinking it might be 911. It was my ex-wife, who had driven
our friend home. Gasping out the minimum necessary information: "Chest
pain. Called ambulance," I hung up, hearing sirens getting closer. There
was a fire truck there within, IIRC, 3 minutes, and the full paramedics
within 7.

Unfortunately, I was unable to talk them into taking me to a hospital a
mile away, where my primary physician, a cardiologist, had privileges.
Actually, I couldn't talk much about anything. Unfortunately, they
insisted on taking me to the hospital a block away, which, mercifully,
has closed.

> You gotta check it out anyway.
> Note to Jill: Cardio testing isn't bad at all. Then when it checks out
> fine, and I bet it does, they'll look at other possible causes.
> Your aneurysm story is awful. I am shocked that the chiropractor isn't
> qualified to check for that. My father has an AAA that is, I think 3.5
> cm, not big enough to operate yet. *I* can even feel it.

I never spoke to the chiropractor, but the impression he gave is that he
didn't need no steenking badges...I mean, training in general medicine.

A NIH consensus confererence indicated that chiropractors have the best
results in dealing with acute back pain. There's definitely a role for
manipulation, although there are a number of questions about whether the
specific chiropractic theory of subluxations is actually at the root of
what success they have. Some years ago, I attended an interdisciplinary
conference on back pain, and a professor from a chiropractic college
suggested they may be doing the right thing for the wrong reasons -- he
thought that some of the manipulations caused useful neurotransmitter
release, and it was the manipulation itself, not the "adjustment", that
made the difference.

I've worked with several osteopathic physicians, and watched one of
them, who is among the smartest physicians I know, turn to a fellow
dinner guest who was complaining of a back pain from work, and asked a
few questions about how she sat in front of her computer. He had her put
her arms in certain odd specified positions, felt around slightly on her
back, nodded, and pushed hard with his thumb at a specific point.

There was an audible CLICK, and the expression on her face, if I had
seen it in other circumstances, could well have been caused by orgasm.  
In this case, it was because her pain was GONE.
Enfilade - 27 Jun 2005 18:35 GMT
Doctor DP says physician first, chiropractor maybe later.

My dad's chiropractor did wonders for his back, but only after the
doctor recommended he go there and made sure it wasn't something else.

Purrs.

--Fil
sriddles@aol.com - 27 Jun 2005 18:39 GMT
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:>
> IIRC, I was 39 when I had my first attack of angina (I'm 56 now). It
> presented rather atypically -- I don't think I was in denial for the 2
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> insisted on taking me to the hospital a block away, which, mercifully,
> has closed.

Wow. Your story is much more dramatic than mine. I ambled into the ER
the night before thanksgiving and told them, "My jaw hurts. I think I
have TMJ. I just need some Vicodin or something so I can make it till
the dentist opens on Monday, thank you very much." Twenty-four hours
later I was in ICU recovering from a quadruple bypass. My chest never
hurt, neither did my arms.

Sherry
Jane - 28 Jun 2005 20:20 GMT
>> Unfortunately, I was unable to talk them into taking me to a hospital a
>> mile away, where my primary physician, a cardiologist, had privileges.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>later I was in ICU recovering from a quadruple bypass. My chest never
>hurt, neither did my arms.

yeah, my father was something like that. He went to the doctor complaining
of shortness of breath. The doctor basically said, 'Well DUH, you're 70!'
and my father said, 'I think you need to check my heart. My father had
heart problems.'  A couple of days later he had a quadruple bypass.

He wasn't a fat man (just big-boned, like his children).  He was fairly
active for his age, and remarkably healthy. Cholesterol was FINE
except that the LDL and HDL were 'wrong'.  So I ran to MY doctor the
next week with this story and said, 'THOSE are my genes!!  How's my
heart holding up?'  lol  So far I'm fine.  However, I have the added
handicap of about 200 extra lbs.  I'm just working on exercising and
staying as healthy as I can.  I'm eating my veggies and fiber.

Oh, and that was 5 years ago. My father is still going strong. HIS
father, who died from cardiac problems, was still in his 90s when
he went.  On my father's side, I've got good genes. On my mother's
side, not so good.  Only one woman on my mother's side has lived
past 58 so far.  

Jane
- owned and operated by Princess Rita, Orca(t), and Spot
Howard C. Berkowitz - 28 Jun 2005 23:00 GMT
> >> Unfortunately, I was unable to talk them into taking me to a hospital a
> >> mile away, where my primary physician, a cardiologist, had privileges.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> handicap of about 200 extra lbs.  I'm just working on exercising and
> staying as healthy as I can.  I'm eating my veggies and fiber.

Without knowing the exact numbers as well as the triglycerides (or the
total -=- you can derive the fourth from any three), I can't say
exactly, but the current "gold standard" care is to use a combination of
a statin drug with either a fibrate or niacin.  There's more and more
evidence that statins, in particular, have other good effects --
although like any drug, there can be bad side effects.  Most physicians
will say if there's any question of a bad HDL:LDL ratio, patient should
at least be on a statin.

Statin plus fibrate is the control arm ("best accepted therapy") of a
large clinical trial comparing it to an experimental drug that raises
HDL by a different mechanism.

> Oh, and that was 5 years ago. My father is still going strong. HIS
> father, who died from cardiac problems, was still in his 90s when
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Jane
> - owned and operated by Princess Rita, Orca(t), and Spot
Jane - 29 Jun 2005 14:03 GMT
>> heart holding up?'  lol  So far I'm fine.  However, I have the added
>> handicap of about 200 extra lbs.  I'm just working on exercising and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>large clinical trial comparing it to an experimental drug that raises
>HDL by a different mechanism.

Oh, I've got drugs, too. Several of them. The numbers are getting
better,and the exercise helps. I don't know what drugs my father
has, though.  Better living through chemistry!

Jane
Pat - 27 Jun 2005 19:02 GMT
> Sorry, but NOOOOOOOOO! until cardiac or chest wall problems have been
> ruled out. While I believe chiropractors can be a valid part of a health
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I use chiropractic myself, but ONLY after a physician has ruled out
> organic disease.

I was not suggesting Jill not see any particular type of doc, but I have
seen people spend thousands and thousands on needless, invasive, often
harmful "treatments", when in fact all they needed was a spinal adjustment.
Howard C. Berkowitz - 27 Jun 2005 20:11 GMT
> > Sorry, but NOOOOOOOOO! until cardiac or chest wall problems have been
> > ruled out. While I believe chiropractors can be a valid part of a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> harmful "treatments", when in fact all they needed was a spinal
> adjustment.

As I have said, the NIH Consensus Conference agreed chiropractic is
quite useful for acute lower back pain, once other organic disease is
ruled out. Chiropractic is also a legitimate part of multidisciplinary
pain management, and is worth trying for a variety of musculoskeletal
problems.  

In what I hope is a growing trend, I know of some practitioners who are
certified both as chiropractors and physical therapists. They think of
them as complementary skill set, with chiropractic especially good for
flexibility, where physical therapy techniques concentrate more on
strength.

Again, it has a definite role in musculoskeletal problems. There really
is not any body of controlled experimentation that establishes a role
for chiropractic in more organic illnesses, such as asthma.  Some data
suggests there may be improvement due to the release of certain
neurotransmitters and immunomodulators, but these also can be released
in other ways.

Massage therapy, for example, again can be useful. Some chiropractors
use it extensively, along with physical therapies such as heat and
electrical stimulation.  It's the ones that believe adjustments do
everything that worry me.

Accurate diagnosis is the key before undertaking any treatment, be it
allopathic, chiropractic, or osteopathic. When my health coverage
improves and I can have a primary physician again, while I can think of
one good internist I have seen, I might very well select an osteopathic
physician -- they have the same curriculum of the allopathic MDs, with
the addition of manipulation techniques.
Adrian - 27 Jun 2005 14:30 GMT
> I verified my medical insurance is in force.  I'm going to take a
> brief nap, then bathe and drive myself to Baptist Hospital East after
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Jill

Purrs that all goes well.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera)
A house is not a home, without a cat.

Kreisleriana - 27 Jun 2005 14:48 GMT
>I verified my medical insurance is in force.  I'm going to take a brief nap,
>then bathe and drive myself to Baptist Hospital East after I pick up a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Jill

Good luck, Jill.

Theresa
Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh
My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com
Magic Mood Jeep© - 27 Jun 2005 15:13 GMT
> I verified my medical insurance is in force.  I'm going to take a
> brief nap, then bathe and drive myself to Baptist Hospital East after
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> --
> I used to have a handle on life...but it broke off.

Please give me a call if needed, I could find my way down there and at least
get them to the vet if your unreliable brothers are unable to take care of
things.  (Maybe even take Weebs down to see His Precious Persia)

Here's hoping that it's something simple, and you won't need to be checked
in at all!

Call me & let me know either way - so I can update the group!
Signature

The ONE and ONLY
lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde
in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)©
email me at nalee1964 (at) insightbb (dot) com
http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep

W. Leong - 27 Jun 2005 15:34 GMT
I sometimes wonder what to do with Rusty if I have a medical emergency,
especially during off hours when the vet clinic is closed. I suppose my
neighbour can take care of him till he can be boarded at the vet.  The more
frightening thought will be what if something
happens to me.
Ah, the joy of living alone with pet(s).
Better stop worrying and think more positive thoughts.

Winnie

>I verified my medical insurance is in force.  I'm going to take a brief
>nap,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Jill
Jane - 28 Jun 2005 19:50 GMT
My friends and I have discussed this very scenario in great detail.
That's one of the reasons why I have two extra cats right now -
fulfilling my part of our bargain.  If anything should happen to me,
I know that my Princess Rita will be taken care of, and have a home,
if necessary.

Jane

>I sometimes wonder what to do with Rusty if I have a medical emergency,
>especially during off hours when the vet clinic is closed. I suppose my
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>>
>> Jill
sriddles@aol.com - 27 Jun 2005 16:25 GMT
> I verified my medical insurance is in force.  I'm going to take a brief nap,
> then bathe and drive myself to Baptist Hospital East after I pick up a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Jill

Good luck, Jill, purrs for an *excellent* outcome that will put your
mind to rest. You're smart to take your own reading material. I think
I've read every bad magazine ever published. The ER I took my dad to
recently --no joke-- had a Mac World computer magazine from 1997. Then
we went to the cataract doctor, all he had in his office was "Yachting"
magazines!! Like anybody there had ever *been* on a yahcht! Methinks he
makes too much money.

Sherry

Sherry
Irulan - 27 Jun 2005 17:29 GMT
Hope everything turns out ok, Jill.
Lily & her mama
Jazz (RIP)

Signature

Irulan
from the stars we come
to the stars we return
from now until the end of time

>I verified my medical insurance is in force.  I'm going to take a brief
>nap,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Jill
Jen M. - 27 Jun 2005 18:48 GMT
How are you feeling now?  Much love and healing to you!

I wanted to mention--I watched a fascinating t.v. program and did some follow-
up research.  They have found now that intensive back muscle building up has
overall been the most effective treatment for back ailments.  I forget the
name of the study--but they took 200 patients that either had had previous
back surgeries and were headed in for another--or people getting ready to be
signed up for surgery--and took them to this facility that focused on
building up the muscles of the back--and none of the 200 had to go in for
surgery--nor long-term did they have to.

Have Fun,
Jen

>Hope everything turns out ok, Jill.
>Lily & her mama
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> Jill
Howard C. Berkowitz - 27 Jun 2005 20:04 GMT
> How are you feeling now?  Much love and healing to you!
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> building up the muscles of the back--and none of the 200 had to go in for
> surgery--nor long-term did they have to.

A while back, I damaged my shoulder during weight training -- just
started to take the bar off the rack for a squat and POW!  It took about
6 months of physical therapy of my rotator cuff.

Over that time, I had some interesting discussions with the physical
therapist. He said that some of the most common injuries he sees in
athletes are due to not doing lightweight training of the rotator cuff
and lower back. Rotator cuff exercises are fairly simple, but I've never
seen them in a training book.  Unfortunately, I got both individual
directions and some hard copy -- there's probably a link with graphics.

For the lower back, he recommended an exercise called hyperextensions.  
As opposed to a rowing pulley weight system, hyperextensions don't need
much equipment. With a weight bench, you lie on your stomach, lock your
ankles under a bar, and then raise the front of your body, using your
lower back.

Do NOT be surprised if just a few repetitions of this seemingly simple
exercise leave you sore. Don't start with more than 4 to 6.  

Eventually, as you gain strength, you can hold a weight plate behind
your head when doing it.
Katrina - 27 Jun 2005 20:17 GMT
<snip>
> For the lower back, he recommended an exercise called hyperextensions.  
> As opposed to a rowing pulley weight system, hyperextensions don't need
> much equipment. With a weight bench, you lie on your stomach, lock your
> ankles under a bar, and then raise the front of your body, using your
> lower back.

Back when I was dancing (lo, these many years ago... ), this was an
exercise that my instructor had us do by pairing off on the floor-  one
dancer holding the ankles of another.  We'd do 10 repeats, switch and
then do 10 more (this was an advanced class, so we were all in good
shape to begin with).  The second set was done holding the position for
a 3 count.  Really good for the lower back.  I used to do them at home
by wedging my feet under the couch on the living room floor.

Katrina
Howard C. Berkowitz - 27 Jun 2005 21:07 GMT
> <snip>
> > For the lower back, he recommended an exercise called hyperextensions.  
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Katrina

Thanks for mentioning the couch! I had meant to throw that in, since not
everyone has a weight bench, but forgot.
badwilson - 28 Jun 2005 04:12 GMT
> I verified my medical insurance is in force.  I'm going to take a
> brief nap, then bathe and drive myself to Baptist Hospital East
after
> I pick up a couple of books at Walgreen's.  I think I can expect to
> sit there a while; I don't know about you but I *never* count decent
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Jill

Purrs for things to go well at the doctor.  Keep us updated!
--
Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
 
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