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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / May 2005Unemployment is an Epidemic!
Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly terminated yesterday. I've known this woman for 8 years. She started with the company as a temp and demonstrated her ability to grasp the software, research problems and do tech support. I'm one of the people who recommended she be hired permanently. She moved up to a Senior Analyst and then into the position of QA Testing (which is what I was doing when I was let go). Without a prior word, she was told yesterday her services were no longer required. At least with me they used the excuse of some recurring illnesses. I'm waiting for the latest "execution victim" to call me back and tell me what the f*** happened. OB Cats: When I smoke some Alaskan King Salmon on a cedar plank later today I think I'll give my sweet Persia a small piece. Jill  SignatureI used to have a handle on life...but it broke off. > Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me > *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > -- > I used to have a handle on life...but it broke off. I fang yoo for for giving My Precious Persia some of your good food. I not no what dis SAL MON is, but I bets Persia likes it! Mommy is busy taking da smelly TRASH out, but she asked me to ask yoo if Persia is sticking to her DYE YETT??? Mommy say Persia is getting too fluffy, and dat not helthy. I wants My Precious Persia to stay helthy so we be togefur for long tiym! Purrs an Hedbutts to bof yoo & My Precious Persia Weebles >> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >> *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Weebles I (Persia) am sticking to da DY ETT. I got some of da gooshy food dis morning and nuffin else. I tried to get Mommy to give me da crunchies too but she wuld not. She opened da WIN DOZE so I culd watch da birdies an da skwerls an I forget all about da crunchies! Dat silly bird is happy, too. Da SAL MON is da fish. I likes da fish. I fink Mommy will gib me sum of da fish, but she sayd it will only be a liddel bit. I doan wanna be so fluffy. Mommy sayd I look better now wif da DY ETT. Persia >>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told >>> me *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Persia I just seen da pitcher dat your Mommy posted onna pitcher noosgroop, and yoo not look fluffy to me! I fink yur Mommy just been meen and not let you have any fish, she want it all to herself! I seen da pitcher and Mommy say I get all puffed up - I so prowd dat da pretty kitty onna noosgroop was my girlfriend! I gonna go play wif purple puffball now - I lets ofur kitties play wif it too, but dey no to gib it back when dey done, dey no I not happy when it gets losted. I gots good brofur & sisfurs, don't I? Purrs & hedbutts Weebs > Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me > *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly terminated > yesterday. Yeah, it makes me yearn for the days when we had a president who only screwed his intern and not the entire middle class of America! ;> Hugs, CatNipped > > Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me > > *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly terminated [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > CatNipped You and me, both. Melissa >>Yeah, it makes me yearn for the days when we had a president who only >>screwed his intern and not the entire middle class of America! ;> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Melissa That's what I've been saying for the last few years too. Dan >> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >> *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > CatNipped You sound like John. We were interviewed for a news program about the price of gasoline while in Huntsville. I had to pinch him to keep him from going off about the current administration :) Jill > >> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me > >> *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jill LOL! For a chance like that a mere pinch wouldn't have stopped me! ;> Hugs, CatNipped >>>>Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >>>>*another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > LOL! For a chance like that a mere pinch wouldn't have stopped me! ;> Nor me! > Hugs, > > CatNipped >>>Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >>>*another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of gasoline while in Huntsville. I had to pinch him to keep him from going > off about the current administration :) Why did you stop him? The more we voice our discontents, the better chance we have of defeating the moret outrageous parts of Dubya's agenda! > Jill >>>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told >>>> me *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the better chance we have of defeating the moret outrageous > parts of Dubya's agenda! I stopped him because once you get him started, well, let's just say they'd have been there all day and I was hungry! Besides, the interview was about why we chose this particular mom & pop gas station (lower prices) rather than the Texaco and BP chains up and down the street and 5 cents per gallon higher, not about the administration. He wound up on the cutting room floor, anyway. Jill > > Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me > > *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly terminated > > yesterday. > > Yeah, it makes me yearn for the days when we had a president who only > screwed his intern and not the entire middle class of America! ;> Its bizarre. Here in Australia, they keep going on and on about the "skills shortage" and how its about to hit crisis point, and yet, our immigration is so darn strict that highly skilled people over there in the USA (and other places) can't come here to do fill the vacancies we have. Very very weird... Yowie >>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told >>> me *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Its bizarre. Here in Australia, they keep going on and on about the > "skills shortage" and how its about to hit crisis point, and yet, our > immigration is so darn strict that highly skilled people over there > in the USA (and other places) can't come here to do fill the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yowie Ack, tell me about it! We're still waiting on our visa :-( Getting impatient. -- Britta "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album >>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told >>> me *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Yowie This was reported on BBC news in Britain a couple of days ago, the report came from Wollongong. SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera) A house is not a home, without a cat. >>>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told >>>> me *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > This was reported on BBC news in Britain a couple of days ago, the > report came from Wollongong. OOOH! My home town! I wonder if its on their web site? Yowie >>>Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >>>*another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Yowie And yet we have so many people here already WITH skills who are long-term unemployed for the simple reason that they've passed that magic age of 40. I'd always hoped that by that age my experience would start to be worth something. Instead I, and plenty of my colleagues too, am getting really scared that we're now in the last jobs we'll ever have. It seems a stupid waste of peoples' lives. >>>>Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >>>>*another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > scared that we're now in the last jobs we'll ever have. > It seems a stupid waste of peoples' lives. Yeah, that too. There seemed to a trend that started a few years ago that "middle management", ie, those above 40 but not "executive level", had to be done away with. And out went a whole heap of skills and direct experience, as not everyone who his highly skilled and has lots of experience and knowledge wants to be an executive. That decision has come back to kick the organisation I work for. Its also come back to hit me, in a way. because I have specialised in one particular area of science, there are really only a very few positions out there in the world for me if I lost my job tomorrow (and they're already filled). I no longer have good solid "generalist" knowledge of experience that isn't 15 years out of date, and that makes me nervous. Yowie > Yeah, that too. There seemed to a trend that started a few years ago that > "middle management", ie, those above 40 but not "executive level", had to be [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > knowledge of experience that isn't 15 years out of date, and that makes me > nervous. And there simply isn't enough room at the upper management levels for the ex-middle management types. Or, for that matter, any space for them in front-line positions, at least, not in the same organization doing the cutbacks. I've seen people like that go a very long time without anything, spending the severance (which may not have been too generous), without realized there are almost no open positions like the one they lost, and none of those are being filled from outside. Me, well, maybe I wasn't exactly middle management, but although I applied for anything and everything, I grabbed whatever I was offered, even at minimum wage. Some people say that if you do this, you won't be taken seriously for the better jobs in the future. But at least, I am working. Some of the other people aren't. SignatureCheryl > And yet we have so many people here already WITH skills who are > long-term unemployed for the simple reason that they've passed that > magic age of 40. I'd always hoped that by that age my experience would > start to be worth something. Instead I, and plenty of my colleagues too, > am getting really scared that we're now in the last jobs we'll ever have. > It seems a stupid waste of peoples' lives. I've applied several times for better-paying jobs with longer contracts, without getting an interview. I was discussing the reasons with a friend - I have recent academic qualifications, experience in a related field, references from people I'm sure would speak well of me, a job which is fairly new here so I didn't think there'd be a horde of applicants. My friend said it could simple be that they already had someone in mind, which certainly happens a lot, but I've always wondered if it's my age which is against me. But I'll never know, not for sure. I could see it, in a way, if I'd gotten as far as an interview. Maybe I hadn't put myself across well. But dismissed on the basis of the application alone??? For jobs that, on paper, appear like perfect matches??? I should count my blessings; my current job is pleasant and interesting, and I think my chances of a renewal of the contract are good. But it's frustrating not to even be considered seriously under circumstances like that. I notice some posters having multiple interview processes. That's only the case here for a very few jobs. Mostly, the big hurdle is getting an interview, not getting through a series of them. SignatureCheryl >> And yet we have so many people here already WITH skills who are >> long-term unemployed for the simple reason that they've passed that [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >case here for a very few jobs. Mostly, the big hurdle is getting an >interview, not getting through a series of them. Before I found my current job, I was under-employed for a year. My pay at the previous employer had been below-average for the IT field, due to working for a small company, and then both of our primary clients decided not to renew their annual contracts. My hours and pay rate were both cut back drastically. I ended up having to take out a home equity loan and live partly on the loan proceeds. Despite having 19 years experience as a programmer/analyst, it took me over a year to find a new position. I suspect that my age (I am 47) was a deterring factor for a lot of the positions I applied for, even though it is illegal in the USA to discriminate on the basis of age. The chances of proving such discrimination aren't good, however, so it goes on. Fortunately, my current employer, WebMD, was looking for someone with lots of experience, and the job is going well. SignatureJohn F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria > Despite having 19 years experience as a programmer/analyst, it took me > over a year to find a new position. I suspect that my age (I am 47) > was a deterring factor for a lot of the positions I applied for, even > though it is illegal in the USA to discriminate on the basis of age. > The chances of proving such discrimination aren't good, however, so it > goes on. Any woman can commiserate with you, for similar reasons! She may be as well (or even better) qualified than the male applicant who actually gets the job, but how does she prove her gender was the deciding factor? (And I suspect bringing discrimination suits won't help with future job hunts, either!) >>Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >>*another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly terminated >>yesterday. > > Yeah, it makes me yearn for the days when we had a president who only > screwed his intern and not the entire middle class of America! ;> You're not alone, but it doesn't seem to make any difference - we're stuck with him for another four years. (One can only hope the country survives!) > Hugs, > > CatNipped You're not alone, but it doesn't seem to make any difference - we're stuck with him for another four years. (One can only hope the country survives!) And we've just found out that we're stuck with his poodle for another 4-5 years!!!! (Apologies to anyone who has a poodle I know they are smart dogs I msut dare not use what I'd like to call him on this ng in case there are children or impressionable adults reading it!) One can only hope the WORLD survives! Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > You're not alone, but it doesn't seem to make any difference > - we're stuck with him for another four years. (One can [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Indeed it is we on this side of the pond who bear responsibility for the poodle still being in office (hangs head in shame). Mitigating factors on own part - I did not vote for the poodle or the one who casts no shadow in a mirror. Cheers, helen s > Indeed it is we on this side of the pond who bear responsibility for the > poodle still being in office (hangs head in shame). Mitigating factors on > own part - I did not vote for the poodle or the one who casts no shadow in a > mirror. Although I have sympathy with the political points being made here (in fact, I seem to have the Vote of Death and anyone I vote for invariably loses), I must protest on behalf of poodles. I have to admit I once thought poodles were little yappy nuisance dogs, having known one I didn't much care for. Then, when I was still a child, my great-uncle Ralph came to visit, and on one visit brought along his black standard poodle Beau. I adored Beau. He was clipped, but in a very plain style, not fussy. And although he was big, he was beautifully well-behaved and very smart. I still have a preference for cats, but Beau was a great ambassador for his species. May I suggest...mmmm, political leaders one doesn't care for....rats? I've known a nice pet rat, too. Fishers? A bit ambiguous, but they are my villain of the week, since I read a magazine article about their resurgance and tendency to snack on pet cats. Were my villain of the week; now I'd nominate roofers and insurance companies. But there are very nice poodles. I guess that's what I want to say. SignatureCheryl > Although I have sympathy with the political points being made here (in > fact, I seem to have the Vote of Death and anyone I vote for invariably [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > well-behaved and very smart. I still have a preference for cats, but Beau > was a great ambassador for his species. Well, standard poodles are NEVER "yappy little dogs", although the miniature version is what folks tend to think of, when you say "poodle". I suspect most small dogs tend to have inferiority complexes and, to quote a cute dog-food commercial being aired in the U.S, "big egos". One reason I've never had a dog is that my tastes run to the larger breeds, and I've never lived anywhere I thought would be a proper environment for a large dog. > > Although I have sympathy with the political points being made here (in > > fact, I seem to have the Vote of Death and anyone I vote for invariably [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > breeds, and I've never lived anywhere I thought would be a > proper environment for a large dog. They helped me reach one political epiphany. One beautiful spring day, I was teaching a seminar in New York's financial district, and took a walk at lunchtime. As I turned a corner onto Wall Street, I spied an apparent professional dog-walker, holding the leashes of 6-8 slavering toy poodles, all at a run as he tried to keep up. My companion looked at me oddly, as I took a few minutes to get out of hysterical laughter. I told him, wiping tears, that my political education was complete. With my own eyes, I had seen, Brothers and Sisters, I had seen, the Running Dogs of Wall Street. > Indeed it is we on this side of the pond who bear responsibility for the > poodle still being in office (hangs head in shame). Mitigating factors The papers here say it was a moral defeat for Blair and that he is likely to step down soon. The guy in charge of Treasury would succeed him as Prime Minister. SignatureVictor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com >> Indeed it is we on this side of the pond who bear responsibility for the >> poodle still being in office (hangs head in shame). Mitigating factors > > The papers here say it was a moral defeat for Blair and that he is likely > to step down soon. The guy in charge of Treasury would succeed him as > Prime Minister. There has been much speculation for a *long* time over the length of time BLiar has left in office. Don't be fooled by Brown, though, he's sneaky and nasty. He robbed the pension funds over here of *millions*, at a stroke reducing the value of anyone's personal pension, meaning that for the same pension, they now have to save more, as he put tax on pension funds, at a time when people *need* to be helped with saving as our pension situation is in meltdown. Cheers, helen s >> You're not alone, but it doesn't seem to make any difference >> - we're stuck with him for another four years. (One can >> only hope the country survives!) > > One can only hope the WORLD survives! That too! > Yeah, it makes me yearn for the days when we had a president who only > screwed his intern and not the entire middle class of America! ;> Amen to that! >> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >> *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly >> terminated yesterday. > > Yeah, it makes me yearn for the days when we had a president who only > screwed his intern and not the entire middle class of America! ;> I see ... so 5.2% unemployment in 2005 is bad, but 5.2% unemployment in 1996 is good... BTW, the latest figures show 146K /new/ jobs formed in March & 274K /new/ jobs formed in April... SignatureMoses.DukeOfUrl@gmail.com Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler, Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid > I see ... so 5.2% unemployment in 2005 is bad, but 5.2% unemployment in 1996 > is good... > BTW, the latest figures show 146K /new/ jobs formed in March & 274K /new/ > jobs formed in April... I've come to not look at official unemployment stats at all. As far as the stats are concerned, I'm still fully employed. The fact that I am now working in a field other than one I'm trained in for about 1/3 of what I'm used to earning doesn't enter into the stats. My personal view is this: back in 96 I was working as a programmer making good money and enjoying my lifestyle. I'm now hovering on the edge of poverty, working a job that keeps me away from home for a month at a time, where I have to request permission to go home for a couple days. So yes, from my perspective the current administration is falling down badly on the employment front. Dan >> I see ... so 5.2% unemployment in 2005 is bad, but 5.2% unemployment in 1996 >> is good... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >now working in a field other than one I'm trained in for about 1/3 of >what I'm used to earning doesn't enter into the stats. Not to mention that in many (all?) states, once your unemployment benefits run out, you're no longer counted as unemployed. I haven't had a full-time job for a year, but haven't been listed as unemployed for 6 months. Jeanne Hedge, as directed by Natasha ============ http://www.jhedge.com > > I see ... so 5.2% unemployment in 2005 is bad, but 5.2% unemployment in 1996 > > is good... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Dan Same here - I was making more than twice what I'm making now, and enjoying my job and my life - so was DH (who is also a techie). Now we're miserable in our jobs and we too are on the edge of poverty, living from paycheck to paycheck. But, technically, DH and I are fully employed. Hugs, CatNipped > Same here - I was making more than twice what I'm making now, and enjoying > my job and my life - so was DH (who is also a techie). Now we're miserable > in our jobs and we too are on the edge of poverty, living from paycheck to > paycheck. But, technically, DH and I are fully employed. There was a time when the only long-term "unemployed" were either totally unskilled, or "unemployable" (due to drugs, alcohol, etc.) Now many of them are folks like you - people with skills and degrees and the will to work, whose jobs left THEM for overseas. > Hugs, > > CatNipped in '96, the economy was expanding rapidly, new jobs were being created at a faster rate, and the deficit was shrinking. Clinton inherited a deficit, but ended his presidency with the U.S. being firmly in the black. Bush inherited a surplus, which he has turned into a record deficit even faster than Ronald Reagan did. We are at war over WMD's that Saddam not only did not have but was years away from developing. This country is being blatantly run by the religious conservatives for the benefit of corporations and the richest citizens, and everyone else is getting kicked in the teeth--repeatedly. Melissa > in '96, the economy was expanding rapidly, new jobs were being created > at a faster rate, and the deficit was shrinking. Clinton inherited a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > benefit of corporations and the richest citizens, and everyone else is > getting kicked in the teeth--repeatedly. Yep, that just about covers it! Emigration begins to seem more and more tempting (assuming one could get the necessary permits), but as a matter of practical fact..... Uprooting oneself to a strange country is a daunting prospect, especially when one has a family, unless it becomes a matter of survival. (As it did for the Jews in Hitler's Germany - and even there some of them left it too late, because they couldn't really believe persecution could get that bad - not after generations of living side-by-side with Christians, and thinking of themselves more as "Germans" than as "Jews".) >> I see ... so 5.2% unemployment in 2005 is bad, but 5.2% unemployment >> in 1996 is good... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > now working in a field other than one I'm trained in for about 1/3 of > what I'm used to earning doesn't enter into the stats. Furthermore, the stats only include those eligible to collect unemployment benefits! Once your benefits run out, the system loses track of you, so far as countihg you among the unemployed is concerned. >Furthermore, the stats only include those eligible to >collect unemployment benefits! Once your benefits run out, >the system loses track of you, so far as countihg you among >the unemployed is concerned. In the USA the unemployment statistics are developed by surveys. Each month the Department of Labor contacts about 100,000 people and asks them whether they are working, looking for work or not looking for work. They do a little statistical legerdemain and publish the resulting percentages. Whether someone has signed up for unemployment insurance doesn't go into the reported unemployment rate, because not everyone who is out of work gets unemployment compensation. In the USA you're not supposed to be eligible if you quit your job voluntarily or get fired for cause, and some people just don't sign up. Participation in unemployment compensation is in a separate report which includes things like the total number of people receiving payments and the number of new claims being made. As Casey Stengel once said, "You could look it up." >>Furthermore, the stats only include those eligible to >>collect unemployment benefits! Once your benefits run out, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > payments and the number of new claims being made. As Casey Stengel > once said, "You could look it up." You really ARE an anal retentive prick, aren't you? You obviously don't pay much attention to what REALLY goes on in your country! (P L O N K) [[> I've come to not look at official unemployment stats at all. As far as > the stats are concerned, I'm still fully employed. The fact that I am > now working in a field other than one I'm trained in for about 1/3 of > what I'm used to earning doesn't enter into the stats. Furthermore, the stats only include those eligible to collect unemployment benefits! Once your benefits run out, the system loses track of you, so far as countihg you among the unemployed is concerned.]] That's how I fell off the radar of the employment/unemployment stats, too. For a very long time, I was in that limbo of no job, no unemployment comp, and no place in the unemployment stats. If they counted the people with neither a job nor unemployment benefits coming to them, the unemployment percentages would abruptly become a lot less favorable. Donna >Furthermore, the stats only include those eligible to >collect unemployment benefits! Once your benefits run out, >the system loses track of you, so far as countihg you among >the unemployed is concerned.]] As posted before, in the USA the unemployment statistics are derived from a monthly survey by the Department of Labor of 100,000 individuals. They don't just count people getting a check from the government. You can see their web site, http://www.bls.gov/home.htm, for more information than you ever wanted to know about how they figure this. For international information you can go to the ILO key indicators of the labor market web site, http://www.ilo.org/public/english/employment/strat/kilm/. They have enough charts and graphs to make your head swim. >>Furthermore, the stats only include those eligible to >>collect unemployment benefits! Once your benefits run out, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >from a monthly survey by the Department of Labor of 100,000 >individuals. The feds may do it that way, but I know for a fact that the State of Illinois does it based on unemployment claims (I drew my unemployment in Illinois). When my benefits ran out, I fell out of the "unemployed" category. I did a quick search on the internet last night, and it looks like every state does it's own thing. Jeanne Hedge, as directed by Natasha ============ http://www.jhedge.com > [[> I've come to not look at official unemployment stats at all. As far as > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > coming to them, the unemployment percentages would abruptly become a lot > less favorable. And a great many of the "homeless" are no long so by choice (or because the government decided to save money by evicting the "harmless" among the mentally ill), but because their savings have run out, they've no family to take them in, and nowhere else to go but the streets. >> I see ... so 5.2% unemployment in 2005 is bad, but 5.2% unemployment >> in 1996 is good... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > couple days. So yes, from my perspective the current administration > is falling down badly on the employment front. That's odd - the real programming jobs (not the sort we used to call key-punch) are migrating INTO the USA - they want programmers with imagination who can innovate. SignatureMoses.DukeOfUrl@gmail.com Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler, Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid > That's odd - the real programming jobs (not the sort we used to call > key-punch) are migrating INTO the USA - they want programmers with > imagination who can innovate. First, "they want programmers with imagination who can innovate." What on gawd's green earth makes you think that Americans are the only imaginative, innovative people. That's a very provocative thing to write on an international newsgroup, Duke. I'm proud of my country, but people are people no matter where they're born, in all their variety from smart to stupid from noble to ignoble. Second... Um, no, technical jobs are *NOT* migrating into the US. Especially in web programming. During the last administration I had employers fighting over my skills, I was making a six figure salary with *lots* of bennies, and the want ads and online agencies had pages and pages of opportunities. Headhunters were calling me weekly asking me to go on interviews. Now there are three, *THREE* jobs listed on monster and *NONE* listed in the paper. Companies are not willing to hire me at a living wage when they can have someone in India or China do the same work for $3 an hour. And the government is giving them even *more* benefits on top of that. There's a *major* push to get tech jobs outsourced overseas. You can rely on biased statistics put out by the same government that is trying to push its religious beliefs down your throat, or you can pick your head out of the sand and look around you at the tch people you know who are out of work, or doing something in another field for much less pay - I tend to believe what I see, not what the government lies about. Here is an actual email from a consulting firm that came into a major oil company I worked for 2 years ago. ---- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 10:57 AM Subject: Re: SMALL PROJECTS TEAM - SIXTH MEETING Mr Mathur All of the companies mentioned in the list - Shell, HEB, SystemPoint are good candidates to discuss about Outsourcing initiatives. We can help these companies reduce their IT costs by upto 40% and their back office (data entry, telemarketing, customer support, accounting, HR/payroll processing) costs by upto 60% through a good blend of onshore-offshore outsourcing vendors. If your team can open doors to these companies, I can provide all the requisite collateral as well as the vendor network to close the deal. I have attached for your review a presentation on Offshoring services that we can offer. In addition to this, we can bid on any RFQ/RFP these companies put out (leverage our Minority status) and get contracts executed through our vendor network. thanks Anupam ============================= Hugs, CatNipped >> That's odd - the real programming jobs (not the sort we used to call >> key-punch) are migrating INTO the USA - they want programmers with >> imagination who can innovate. > First, "they want programmers with imagination who can innovate." > What on gawd's green earth makes you think that Americans are the > only imaginative, innovative people. That's a very provocative thing > to write on an international newsgroup, Duke. I'm proud of my > country, but people are people no matter where they're born, in all > their variety from smart to stupid from noble to ignoble. Don't shoot the messenger - that's what the executives say. I did not make the statement, I only passed it on. And, I think you're over-reacting. NO ONE said Americans are the /only/ imaginative, innovative people. > Second... > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > CatNipped SignatureMoses.DukeOfUrl@gmail.com Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler, Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid >> That's odd - the real programming jobs (not the sort we used to call >> key-punch) are migrating INTO the USA - they want programmers with >> imagination who can innovate. > Second... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > something in another field for much less pay - I tend to believe what > I see, not what the government lies about. Now see, that last is where your argument breaks down. You make the unsupported claim that the gummint is trying to "push its religious beliefs down your throat." That's ridiculous on the face of it. The US govt canNOT establish any religion. It's in the BoA, remember. Further, the "government" is /all/ the people in it - and that covers everything from Wicca to Atheism. Then, you (ad hominem) claim I have my head in the sand, implying I'm ignorant and uninformed, when what really gripes you is that I disagree with you. You wind up with the argument that you don't believe what the gummint lies about; well, of course not. Problem is you don't believe what the gummint is telling the truth about... Now, you know better. Personally, I like everyone here, as you know. So, rather than have a flamewar, I am withdrawing from the field. I won't be opening any more messages on the topic of jobs (which doesn't really belong here anyway). SignatureMoses.DukeOfUrl@gmail.com Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler, Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid Well, I didn't mean to attack you, just put it down to my frustration with my current job situation. I'm not willing to engage in a flame war here, so if it's OK with you we'll just agree to disagree. Hugs, CatNipped > Now see, that last is where your argument breaks down. > You make the unsupported claim that the gummint is trying to "push its > religious beliefs down your throat." That's ridiculous on the face of it. > The US govt canNOT establish any religion. Tell that to Bush and the religous right pulling his strings! Explain the difference between a government of extremists making its stand on controversial issues into law, and a government forcing its religous beliefs upon the rest of the populace. The difference is one of semantics, not effect! It's in the BoA, remember. The what? If you mean BoR (Bill of Rights) the so-called "Patriot Act" is already doing a number on that - and too many Americans seem totally unaware of the fact. > Further, the "government" is /all/ the people in it - and that covers > everything from Wicca to Atheism. That's what the Bill of Rights "guarantees", yes (although it hasn't necessarily always worked in practice - ask the Mormons). However, the Constitution (and it's addenda) are only as strong as constant vigilance by the American people permit it to be. Folks (apparently folks like you) who rely upon words on paper, and close their eyes to what's actually going on in their country, "guarantee" the the government can do pretty much what it damned well pleases, so long as it doesn't unduly advertise the fact, and the news media are in its pocket. > Then, you (ad hominem) claim I have my head in the sand, She was being polite! ;-) > implying I'm > ignorant and uninformed, Well, if the shoe fits..... when what really gripes you is that I disagree with > you. And state your "disagreement" as though it were fact, not opinion - or are your "facts" more factual than her personal experience? > You wind up with the argument that you don't believe what the gummint lies > about; well, of course not. Problem is you don't believe what the gummint is > telling the truth about... Well, an increasing number of our citizens concur - the Bush government has lied to us about nearly everything, and simply restating the same lies over and over does NOT make them true! > Now, you know better. > Personally, I like everyone here, as you know. So, rather than have a > flamewar, I am withdrawing from the field. I won't be opening any more > messages on the topic of jobs (which doesn't really belong here anyway). What is there about the concept of "OT" that you do not understand? You chose to comment on the previous posts - if you are so insecure you cannot accept that many (probably most) here do not accept YOUR views, why did you put your oar in? Most of us here seem to regard each other as friends. It's really not even so "OT", if one is among the unemployed, to hope that friends on rpca may have some suggestions to offer. >Tell that to Bush and the religous right pulling his >strings! Explain the difference between a government of >extremists making its stand on controversial issues into >law, and a government forcing its religous beliefs upon the >rest of the populace. The difference is one of semantics, >not effect! Reminded me of something I saw on the web Saturday at http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/7/19155/80804 Specifically, the reference to the "Houses of Worship Free Speech Restoration Act" "HR 235 was introduced to liberate clergy from the muzzle imposed by the absolute ban on all speech that may be regarded as "political," and thereby enable them to speak out on all vital and moral and political questions of the day. It will free houses of worship from the fear and anxiety and uncertainty created by the threat that the IRS will impose financial penalties or revoke tax-exempt status altogether." http://www.hr235.org/ Jeanne Hedge, as directed by Natasha ============ http://www.jhedge.com >Well, an increasing number of our citizens concur - the Bush >government has lied to us about nearly everything, and >simply restating the same lies over and over does NOT make >them true! When Hitler and his friends did it it was known as "The Big Lie" - repeat the same lies over and over often enough and people come to believe them true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie Gee, I just fulfilled Godwin's Law <g> ("As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law Jeanne Hedge, as directed by Natasha ============ http://www.jhedge.com >>>I see ... so 5.2% unemployment in 2005 is bad, but 5.2% unemployment >>>in 1996 is good... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > key-punch) are migrating INTO the USA - they want programmers with > imagination who can innovate. .....And will work for starvation wages? >> That's odd - the real programming jobs (not the sort we used to call >> key-punch) are migrating INTO the USA - they want programmers with >> imagination who can innovate. > > .....And will work for starvation wages? I don't know that that's even a factor. If programming jobs are coming back into the US, they're coming into parts of the US other than where I've been looking. Southern CA, western AZ and lower NV are still dry wells as far as IT jobs go. There simply aren't any. There are no programming jobs migrating into the southwestern US, unless they are doing so in stealth mode. Dan >>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >>> *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >BTW, the latest figures show 146K /new/ jobs formed in March & 274K /new/ >jobs formed in April... And how many of these new jobs provide a living wage? How many of them are even minimum wage? My job disappeared to the Philippines 1 year ago. I have had a grand total of 3 interviews in that time, all for work paying 1/3 - 1/2 of the barely living wage I was making in my old job. I have been living on my 401K (for which the Eternal Revenue Service will get me) and $50/day pre-taxes substitute teaching (NOT a daily gig, and very soon to dry up until Fall) You do NOT want to get *me* (for one) started on this subject. Jeanne Hedge, as directed by Natasha ============ http://www.jhedge.com >>>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told >>>> me *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > And how many of these new jobs provide a living wage? All of them; granted, it may not be as NICE a living as you had before, but I know LOTSA people who've gone up and down and up that way. It's normal. > How many of them are even minimum wage? All of them. > My job disappeared to the Philippines 1 year ago. I have had a grand > total of 3 interviews in that time, all for work paying 1/3 - 1/2 of > the barely living wage I was making in my old job. I have been living > on my 401K (for which the Eternal Revenue Service will get me) and > $50/day pre-taxes substitute teaching (NOT a daily gig, and very soon > to dry up until Fall) Then perhaps you seriously need to look at a change of occupation. There is no obligation on life's part to provide an opening for anything anyone wants to do; many, many LibArts majors discover this after graduating college. Many people with /real/ training in engineering, agriculture ekcetera also discover that they simply didn't go at it properly and have to either re-train or take low-level jobs. It happens. What counts is your not letting it make you give up. SignatureMoses.DukeOfUrl@gmail.com Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler, Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid >>>>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told >>>>> me *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >re-train or take low-level jobs. It happens. What counts is your not letting >it make you give up. Gee Duke, according to this exchange you had with Dan, I shouldn't be having any trouble finding a job. After all, I'm a programmer, and all the programmer jobs are coming *into* the US... Duke wrote: >Dan M. wrote: >> My personal view is this: back in 96 I was working as a programmer [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >key-punch) are migrating INTO the USA - they want programmers with >imagination who can innovate. Jeanne Hedge, as directed by Natasha ============ http://www.jhedge.com > Gee Duke, according to this exchange you had with Dan, I shouldn't be > having any trouble finding a job. After all, I'm a programmer, and all > the programmer jobs are coming *into* the US... Not all, but yes, that's the direction the flow is taking for creative programmers. Hey, Jeanne, don't misunderstand me - I'm not mocking anyone who's jobhunting, I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm just trying to combat the position that the nation is economically worse-off than it was 10 years ago. I am deeply sympathetic to frustrated job-seekers - been there, done that. And I had no option of moving on to another community; I had to stay in one particular town, so never did get the sort of job I'd've preferred to have. My personal preference would be that everyone get to have the work they love, for a recompense that lets them live in comfort, in a location they are delighted with. SignatureMoses.DukeOfUrl@gmail.com Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler, Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid >>Gee Duke, according to this exchange you had with Dan, I shouldn't be >>having any trouble finding a job. After all, I'm a programmer, and all [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > jobhunting, I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm just trying to combat the > position that the nation is economically worse-off than it was 10 years ago. It's a little difficult to do that, when all the facts (as opposed to government "bulletins" indicate the opposite, isn't it? (I admire your optimism and faith in our government - too bad that they're misplaced, these days!) We'll be lucky if the WORLD survives any more "good will" tours on the part of our president - he seems dead set on alienating any country not yet less than enchanted with the US! > Gee Duke, according to this exchange you had with Dan, I shouldn't be > having any trouble finding a job. After all, I'm a programmer, and all > the programmer jobs are coming *into* the US... Some of these selectively blind Bushites may yet find themselves joining the ranks of the permanently unemployed before November, 2008. We'll see what they have to say, then! (Too many folks tend to think that, if something bad hasn't happened to them yet, it never will.) >>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me >>> *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > BTW, the latest figures show 146K /new/ jobs formed in March & 274K /new/ > jobs formed in April... So says someone who I guess isn't in the job market right now. Grrrr. Tweed >>>> Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told >>>> me *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> BTW, the latest figures show 146K /new/ jobs formed in March & 274K >> /new/ jobs formed in April... > So says someone who I guess isn't in the job market right now. > Grrrr. > Tweed Pffthththbbttt... Jealousy will get you nowhere. <G> Ekshully, if I /could/ work, I would love to. All I need is a new spine, a new hip, new knees, some eyeball repair, a neurologist with a magic wand ... sigh... But, no, /I/ didn't make those figures, the RW did. You will note that it was a response to the whine that "we need Bubba back". SignatureMoses.DukeOfUrl@gmail.com Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler, Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid [["jmcquown" <jmcquown@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:39uee.73$0i3.30@bignews3.bellsouth.net... > Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me > *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly terminated > yesterday. Yeah, it makes me yearn for the days when we had a president who only screwed his intern and not the entire middle class of America! ;> Hugs, CatNipped]] LMHO!!!! Donna > Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me > *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly terminated [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and demonstrated her ability to grasp the software, research problems and do > tech support. Apparently Earthlink fired ALL its U.S. tech support staff more than a year ago! (Several guys I know were thrown out of work, and not all have found another job yet.) Earthlink may be making money because of it, but I'd much rather pay a bit more for the service and be able to speak with someone, when I have a problem, who doesn't "speak" more English than he understands! > Apparently Earthlink fired ALL its U.S. tech support staff more than a > year ago! (Several guys I know were thrown out of work, and not all > have found another job yet.) Earthlink may be making money because of > it, but I'd much rather pay a bit more for the service and be able to > speak with someone, when I have a problem, who doesn't "speak" more > English than he understands! And I vowed to never again stay at a Best Western motel when they announced a few months ago that they were firing their entire IT staff and moving the IT functions to India. Sound familiar? > And I vowed to never again stay at a Best Western motel when they > announced a few months ago that they were firing their entire IT staff > and moving the IT functions to India. Sound familiar? They do so because they get tax bennies and kick-backs from the government for out-sourcing. And the same people who lose their jobs to outsourcing are the ones who voted the current admin into office. Karma and all that jazz... -L. > They do so because they get tax bennies and kick-backs from the > government for out-sourcing. And the same people who lose their jobs > to outsourcing are the ones who voted the current admin into office. > Karma and all that jazz... > -L. And they can pay Indian workers a lot less than US workers. Yes, I do understand the motivation, I just wish the companies would be a little more concerned about the welfare of their workers. And not all of us who are being bitten by the oursourcing voted the current imbecile into office. I voted for the other guy both of the last elections. For all the good it did :( Dan > And they can pay Indian workers a lot less than US workers. Yes, I do > understand the motivation, I just wish the companies would be a little > more concerned about the welfare of their workers. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dan Oh, I know. But much of the working and middle class did vote for the current regime. Jobs in DH's field are all being outsourced to China. His only saving grace is that he speaks Mandarin and heads projects there already. But the travel takes it's toll and the problems of international business are many. -L. > Oh, I know. But much of the working and middle class did vote for the > current regime. Too true. As I've said before, I will never cease to be amazed at the stupidity and blindness of the voting public. > Jobs in DH's field are all being outsourced to China. His only saving > grace is that he speaks Mandarin and heads projects there already. > But the travel takes it's toll and the problems of international > business are many. Yes, I remember those challenges well! I spent many a week in Hong Kong back in the late 90s. Dan >> Apparently Earthlink fired ALL its U.S. tech support staff more than a >> year ago! (Several guys I know were thrown out of work, and not all [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > announced a few months ago that they were firing their entire IT staff > and moving the IT functions to India. Sound familiar? Well, although the idea didn't originate with him, we can certainly thank our current president for approving, rather than trying to discourage the trend! > Well, although the idea didn't originate with him, we can certainly > thank our current president for approving, rather than trying to > discourage the trend! Agreed! >> Apparently Earthlink fired ALL its U.S. tech support staff more than >> a year ago! (Several guys I know were thrown out of work, and not [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > announced a few months ago that they were firing their entire IT staff > and moving the IT functions to India. Sound familiar? Y'know, I used to get really angry about all the off-shoring of American jobs, thinking it was weakening us badly. Then, I found out this: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba480/ a short summary: Outsourcing versus Insourcing. Countries around the world are outsourcing their jobs to the United States in huge numbers, according to the Organization for International Investment: For the past 15 years, corporations have moved jobs to the United States at a faster rate than jobs have left, for an 82 percent increase in insourced jobs compared to a 23 percent increase in outsourced jobs. [See the figure.] Manufacturing jobs have been insourced at an even faster pace than service jobs, more than doubling over the period (though beginning from a smaller base). Jobs insourced to the United States increased from 4.9 million in 1991 to 6.4 million in 2001. I am delighted to see that the USA /still/ knows how to make lemonade from lemons ... and grow a better lemon tree in the process. SignatureMoses.DukeOfUrl@gmail.com Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler, Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid > Y'know, I used to get really angry about all the off-shoring of American > jobs, thinking it was weakening us badly. > Then, I found out this: > http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba480/ That *is* good news, but it would be better news if that included the higher-paying high tech jobs. These reports of an improving economy are good to hear, but a bunch of us on RPCA who used to hold IT jobs are STILL not able to find jobs here. Here's my measure: 8 to 10 years ago I would pick up a Sunday LA Times or Orange County Register and turn to the "Help Wanted" ads. I'd look under "Computer" and find 3 to 6 pages of job listings. I'd turn to "Engineer" and find another 3 to 6 pages of listing. Today I pick up one of those papers on a Sunday and find 3 or 4 ads (not pages of ads, but individual ads) under either category. I haven't done so in a couple of months - too depressing, and I've got better uses for the buck and a half or so the paper costs. Once I start seeing pages of ads under "Computer" and "Engineer" once again, then I'll acknowledge that the economy has recovered. Dan >Here's my measure: 8 to 10 years ago I would pick up a Sunday LA Times >or Orange County Register and turn to the "Help Wanted" ads. I'd look [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Once I start seeing pages of ads under "Computer" and "Engineer" once >again, then I'll acknowledge that the economy has recovered. Same thing with the Washington Post, but you'll probably never see the number of techie ads in the paper ever again. They're all on the Internet. Dice.com, Monster.com, and Hotjobs.yahoo.com, are the biggest ones that I go to. Thousands upon thousands of jobs up there (none of which I'm qualified for....) If you want a computer job, look on the computer. And if you want a computer employee, again, look on the computer. It's the way things are moving. Jane >Y'know, I used to get really angry about all the off-shoring of American >jobs, thinking it was weakening us badly. >Then, I found out this: >http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba480/ The National Center for Policy Analysis may claim to be a "nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization", but according to RightTurns.com ("heading in the *right* direction" - http://www.rightturns.com/conservweb.htm) they're a conservative think tank, right up there with the Cato Institute and The Heritage Foundation. I'm not even remotely suprised they'd be in favor of outsourcing. Jeanne Hedge, as directed by Natasha ============ http://www.jhedge.com >> Y'know, I used to get really angry about all the off-shoring of >> American jobs, thinking it was weakening us badly. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Foundation. I'm not even remotely suprised they'd be in favor of > outsourcing. Political orientation has no effect on RW numbers... SignatureMoses.DukeOfUrl@gmail.com Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler, Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid > >> Y'know, I used to get really angry about all the off-shoring of > >> American jobs, thinking it was weakening us badly. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Political orientation has no effect on RW numbers... Duke, numbers and statistics can prove anything you want them to prove, polls can determine just exactly what you want them to determine. If you want to find truth, use your own senses and don't rely on statistics or polls. Propagandist is *really* the world's oldest profession. Hugs, CatNipped > > >> Y'know, I used to get really angry about all the off-shoring of > > >> American jobs, thinking it was weakening us badly. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > want to find truth, use your own senses and don't rely on statistics or > polls. Propagandist is *really* the world's oldest profession. It has been said that statistics are like a bikini: what they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. This has remained generally true as I learn more formal mathematical statistics. > > > >> Y'know, I used to get really angry about all the off-shoring of > > > >> American jobs, thinking it was weakening us badly. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. This has remained generally > true as I learn more formal mathematical statistics. I once read a story in which one person was constantly quoting statistics. Finally someone said, "I think you make those up." Her response was, "Well, somebody has to." Actually, it is very easy to prove anything you want with a poll. Just ask the right people the right questions. If you are very good at formulating the questions, you can ask almost anybody and still get the results you want. Joy Joy wrote: >I once read a story in which one person was constantly quoting statistics. >Finally someone said, "I think you make those up." Her response was, "Well, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the questions, you can ask almost anybody and still get the results you >want. I have a book titled "How To Lie With Statistics". It's very informative and shows the various ways one can manipulate them to prove whatever point you want. -- Regards and Purrs, O J > > > > > On Fri, 6 May 2005 17:16:55 -0500, "Duke of URL" > > > > > <MacBenah@kdsi.net> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > the questions, you can ask almost anybody and still get the results you > want. It's sad that there is a great deal of knowledge about constructing accurate polls. Going beyond the issues of selecting the sample size, there are different statistical methods for measuring the response to a question (e.g., rate 1 to 10), based on whether the poll designer thinks that the answers will be evenly divided, clumped at the two extremes, or a bell curve. There's a very nice reference, not overly mathematical given the topic, at http://www2.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/pa765/standard.htm The actual poll questions, in a poll meant to be fair, also get careful attention. Often, a poll designer writes several versions of the same question, trying to include several differences in phrasing (e.g., A-D). The individual poll subjects get mixtures of questions. Subject #1 might get 1A, 2C and 3B, Subject #2 gets 1C, 2A and 3B, etc. > It's sad that there is a great deal of knowledge about constructing > accurate polls. Going beyond the issues of selecting the sample size, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a bell curve. There's a very nice reference, not overly mathematical > given the topic, at http://www2.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/pa765/standard.htm > The actual poll questions, in a poll meant to be fair, also get careful > attention. Often, a poll designer writes several versions of the same > question, trying to include several differences in phrasing (e.g., A-D). > The individual poll subjects get mixtures of questions. Subject #1 > might get 1A, 2C and 3B, Subject #2 gets 1C, 2A and 3B, etc. And you almost never get enough information attached to a 'statistics prove' claim to know whether or not the person producing said statistics did a proper job in designing the survey. There's also a strong pressure from everyone from reporters (who often don't have time or space to get into nuanced information) to the non-statisticians who actually paid for the study, know what they want it to prove, and who are perfectly willing to use misleading text about certain results, not release others, etc. Statistical analysis, including surveys and polls, are very useful and powerful tools, but they are easy to misuse and the results are easy to either misinterpret or present in a misleading fashion. I don't pay a lot of attention to the usual mass media reports on such data. SignatureCheryl > > It's sad that there is a great deal of knowledge about constructing > > accurate polls. Going beyond the issues of selecting the sample size, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the study, know what they want it to prove, and who are perfectly willing > to use misleading text about certain results, not release others, etc. Sure. Most major medical journals have a statistical consultant on the editorial staff. There is now a procedure among them to list the specific contributions of the authors to areas including experimental design, performing analysis, writing or editing the paper, and doing statistical analysis. Epidemiological studies aren't taken seriously without such things as odds rations and confidence intervals. But, you are quite right that reporters rarely go for nuances. I will say that when I was active in politics, some of the polls commissioned by parties and candidates were truly meant to be as objective as possible, when they were being used to plan campaign strategy. Such polls, however, were rarely released to the public. I still do cherish the audacity of a US commercial, thankfully quite a few years ago, that insisted "Green Mint mouthwash is 37% stronger!" Period. > Statistical analysis, including surveys and polls, are very useful and > powerful tools, but they are easy to misuse and the results are easy to > either misinterpret or present in a misleading fashion. I don't pay a lot > of attention to the usual mass media reports on such data. > I still do cherish the audacity of a US commercial, thankfully quite a > few years ago, that insisted "Green Mint mouthwash is 37% stronger!" > Period. Yes, I love that sort of thing. I remember several years ago there were billboards all over, at least in California, stating "Eggs - 40% less cholesterol". I may have the figure wrong, but that was the general idea. Joy > > Just got off the phone with a friend and former co-worker who told me > > *another* mutual friend and co-worker's employment was abruptly [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > with someone, when I have a problem, who doesn't "speak" > more English than he understands! Interestingly, Comcast outsourced its user support to EDS, who runs the center in a surprising place: Halifax. Especially when I escalate a problem, I work hard on my Canadian accent. |
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