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Smokie Darling (Annie) - 09 Apr 2005 17:12 GMT
As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
need advice here, how long am I going to hear the crying to get out,
the jumping up the wall trying to get to windows?  He has managed to
avoid the busy street near my house so far, but...

How long are we going to argue this point?  I believe he has never been
an "inside" kitty.  I know he knows how to use the litter boxes (even
Li'l Bit who was NEVER inside, 'til me, knows how to use one).  Who can
give me some ideas to "distract" him?

When will he stop asking out?  I've had friends whose cats "killed"
themselves after being snipped (and they were both Siamese, and he's
part Siamese).  I'm serious about that.  He is only a year old,
according to TED.

Smokie Darling (Annie)
Karen - 09 Apr 2005 17:19 GMT
> As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
> an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Smokie Darling (Annie)

SO young I bet that once his hormones calm down, he will adjust. My mom
pulled an intact 2 or so year old from the outdoors and I suppose it took
about 2 months before he stopped yowling at windows.
Christina Websell - 09 Apr 2005 17:42 GMT
> As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
> an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Smokie Darling (Annie)

This is a difficult one.  It seems much more usual to keep cats inside in
the USA than it does here in the UK.
Up until now then, until he was snipped he could go out?  Is that what you
are saying?
I don't know how dangerous it is where you live, but it's not any more
dangerous than a few days ago and once the testosterone has reduced, which
doesn't happen immediately, he probably won't want to go far anyway.
It's quiet here, so safe (ish) for my cats, never say completely safe, so I
let Boyfriend out a couple of days after his snip.
Kitty, having lived feral for a few years would go crazy if I kept her
inside, even though now she is old she likes to sleep in front of the fire
most of the time, she was always keen to go out until she got hurt last
year.
Boyfriend is always happiest if the door is slightly open.  Even though he
quite likes to stay in now, he also likes the thought that he can go out
when he likes.
He may only just have come in, but if I shut the door, after ten minutes or
so, he will miaow at it.  Then I get up and open it, and he says "actually I
don't want to go out, I just want to know that I *can*, leave it open.."

Tweed
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 09 Apr 2005 18:35 GMT
> > As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
> > an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).
I
> > need advice here, how long am I going to hear the crying to get out,
> > the jumping up the wall trying to get to windows?  He has managed to
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Tweed

Well, we have mountain lions (rare, but they do come down), bear (also
a bit rare, but I've seen two every winter, we used to feed them with
approval of, and food stuffs provided by, BLM's wildlife division, but
haven't since their food supply in the mountains is back after the
wildfires), some formerly domesticated dogs that aren't anymore.

Then there is the road that is about 100 feet from my door, it's an old
US Hwy, and there are many big rigs (semis, tractor-trailer-trucks)
that use the road, and teen agers who drive too fast, so it's very
dangerous (we lose small children and pets on that road every month,
it's awful).

My worry is now that he is "cared" for on a permanent basis, he will
lose his survival instincts.  Also, I don't want him going out anymore
(I'm terrified of what can happen).  It's silly I know, but now that
I've made him "mine" I worry more.

I can't tell you how much I *used* to worry when he went out, but
pre-neuter he would spray when I said no, now he doesn't, he just
cries, and I'm a big ole meanie.

So, I guess I'll be looking at a couple of months, and at least he
isn't "yelling" at me like in the car day before yesterday.  Jeepers, I
wonder if I'll ever get back to writing "non" novels...  Sorry for the
length.

Smokie Darling (Annie)
Christina Websell - 09 Apr 2005 18:56 GMT
>> > As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he
> will be
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> haven't since their food supply in the mountains is back after the
> wildfires), some formerly domesticated dogs that aren't anymore.

EEEEK!  Mountain lions, bears, feral dogs?  Where is it exactly in the US
that you live?   (remind me not to go there..;-) )

> Then there is the road that is about 100 feet from my door, it's an old
> US Hwy, and there are many big rigs (semis, tractor-trailer-trucks)
> that use the road, and teen agers who drive too fast, so it's very
> dangerous (we lose small children and pets on that road every month,
> it's awful).

Hmm.  He has survived it up to now, but only you can decide. It's a
difficult one, like I said.

> My worry is now that he is "cared" for on a permanent basis, he will
> lose his survival instincts.

That hasn't been my experience with my two, who have both lived wild for a
while, Kitty for 7 years, Boyfriend probably just a few months.  Neither of
them go front of house much, where the road is, although it wouldn't be that
dangerous if they did.  I think I could go outside and stand in the middle
of the road for 5 minutes and not see a car.

> Also, I don't want him going out anymore
> (I'm terrified of what can happen).  It's silly I know, but now that
> I've made him "mine" I worry more.

Of course you do, now he is yours, he's so much more precious.

> I can't tell you how much I *used* to worry when he went out, but
> pre-neuter he would spray when I said no, now he doesn't, he just
> cries, and I'm a big ole meanie.

<grin>  So he sprayed and you said yes!  ROFL.  His cry means the same
thing.  I am not saying you should let him out, or not, but what is
different from when he insisted by spraying and now insisting by crying?

> So, I guess I'll be looking at a couple of months, and at least he
> isn't "yelling" at me like in the car day before yesterday.

I hope he settles well to an inside life.

Jeepers, I
> wonder if I'll ever get back to writing "non" novels...  Sorry for the
> length.

No sweat to me, I have broadband ;-)

Lots of luck with the lad
Tweed
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 09 Apr 2005 19:11 GMT
< <snipped> >
> >> > Smokie Darling (Annie)
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> EEEEK!  Mountain lions, bears, feral dogs?  Where is it exactly in the US
> that you live?   (remind me not to go there..;-) )

Palisade, Colorado, and part of the reason I love being here is the
wildlife (deer, squirrels, chipmunks, marmots [mean beasties], etc.).
We are at the base of a large mesa (originally called The Grand Mesa,
ain't they smart?), and the wildlife knows there is food to be had
here.  We are also less than 1/2 miles from the Colorado River (hence
why the bear like to come around).

> > Then there is the road that is about 100 feet from my door, it's an old
> > US Hwy, and there are many big rigs (semis, tractor-trailer-trucks)
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> dangerous if they did.  I think I could go outside and stand in the middle
> of the road for 5 minutes and not see a car.

That's why I know I'm silly.  He's been here for at least 5 1/2 months,
and ignored the road.  Of course, right now he's sleeping with Tuppence
(who HATES any other cat, but she seems to like him), and they look so
cute.

>  > Also, I don't want him going out anymore
> > (I'm terrified of what can happen).  It's silly I know, but now that
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> thing.  I am not saying you should let him out, or not, but what is
> different from when he insisted by spraying and now insisting by crying?

Well, the crying doesn't leave a lingering odo(u)r ;).

> > So, I guess I'll be looking at a couple of months, and at least he
> > isn't "yelling" at me like in the car day before yesterday.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Lots of luck with the lad
> Tweed

I'm beginning to think I may have met my match with stubborness (?).
CatNipped - 09 Apr 2005 19:44 GMT
> EEEEK!  Mountain lions, bears, feral dogs?  Where is it exactly in the US
> that you live?   (remind me not to go there..;-) )

And coyotes, *large* raccoons, possums, armadillos, wolves, poisonous snakes
and spiders.  I think this is why there is such misunderstanding about why
we in the US are so "rabid" (;>) about keeping cats indoors.  The US *still*
has millions of acres of untamed wilderness - and lots of places where we
live abut those wildernesses.

Hugs,

CatNipped
Steve Touchstone - 09 Apr 2005 21:34 GMT
>> EEEEK!  Mountain lions, bears, feral dogs?  Where is it exactly in the US
>> that you live?   (remind me not to go there..;-) )
>
>And coyotes, *large* raccoons, possums, armadillos, wolves, poisonous snakes
>and spiders.  I think this is why there is such misunderstanding about why
>we in the US are so "rabid" (;>)

Don't forget shunks, who, at least in our part of the US, can be
carriers of rabies

>about keeping cats indoors.  The US *still*
>has millions of acres of untamed wilderness - and lots of places where we
>live abut those wildernesses.
Signature

Steve Touchstone,
faithful servant of Sammy and Little Bit

stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email]
Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html
Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

Magic Mood Jeep? - 09 Apr 2005 21:41 GMT
>>> EEEEK!  Mountain lions, bears, feral dogs?  Where is it exactly in
>>> the US that you live?   (remind me not to go there..;-) )
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> has millions of acres of untamed wilderness - and lots of places
>> where we live abut those wildernesses.

Found a deer track in our yard today.  I know there are deer around here,
but we live in a busy area with little woods.  He/she must have been
traveling, and just passing through.

--?
The ONE and ONLY
lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy
former-blonde in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)? email me at
nalee1964 (at) insightbb (dot) com
http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep
Steve Touchstone - 09 Apr 2005 21:58 GMT
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 20:41:59 GMT, "Magic Mood Jeep©"
<nobody@nowhere.net> wrote:

>Found a deer track in our yard today.  I know there are deer around here,
>but we live in a busy area with little woods.  He/she must have been
>traveling, and just passing through.

For awhile, after I started the pizza delivery job, it was common for
me to see a small herd of deer along the road just inside one of the
main gates on post (Ft Sill, Oklahoma). Not really an area that's
heavily built up, but lots of traffic with a freeway exiting to a four
lane road and tank trail a couple hundred yards away with artillery
regularly rumbling by. I haven't seen them for awhile - hmmm I wonder
if the sightings correspond to the on-post hunting season.
Signature

Steve Touchstone,
faithful servant of Sammy and Little Bit

stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email]
Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html
Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

Smokie Darling (Annie) - 09 Apr 2005 22:13 GMT
> On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 20:41:59 GMT, "Magic Mood Jeep©"
> <nobody@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> >Found a deer track in our yard today.  I know there are deer around here,
> >but we live in a busy area with little woods.  He/she must have been

> >traveling, and just passing through.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> regularly rumbling by. I haven't seen them for awhile - hmmm I wonder
> if the sightings correspond to the on-post hunting season.

Around here, one sees deer and elk very regularly, right up to the day
before hunting season.  Then they are nowhere to be found.  I'm
convinced they know, and will visit the farms that leave unharvested
food (grain and corn) around, to have a good meal before they go into
hiding.  Haven't heard of anyone getting any either, so they must have
good "go to ground" spots.

> --
> Steve Touchstone,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html
> Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

Smokie Darling (Annie)
Mathew Kagis - 09 Apr 2005 21:59 GMT
<SNIP>

> >And coyotes, *large* raccoons, possums, armadillos, wolves, poisonous snakes
> >and spiders.  I think this is why there is such misunderstanding about why
> >we in the US are so "rabid" (;>)
>
> Don't forget shunks, who, at least in our part of the US, can be
> carriers of rabies

... Lots of skunks in my area too.  I was worried that the cats might get
sprayed, as there's a family of them living just behind my back yard.  A
freind, long time cat slave & longtime resident in this area, assured me
that cats & skunks get along just fine.  This was confirmed for me 2 days
ago... I was sitting on the porch, reading a book & watching the furballs
sniff around the back yard.  A skunk walked right up to Chablis  (At this
point I was grabbing empty beer bottles to lob as artillery if needed). They
sniffed noses, Chablis let out a little 'mrrrp' & the skunk walked back the
way it had come.

I was FLOORED!!!!

Signature

Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

jmcquown - 09 Apr 2005 22:00 GMT
> <SNIP>
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> I was FLOORED!!!!

That's cute!  (However, I do think lobbing a bottle at a skunk is a bad
idea.)

Jill
Mathew Kagis - 09 Apr 2005 22:08 GMT
<SNIP>

> That's cute!  (However, I do think lobbing a bottle at a skunk is a bad
> idea.)
>
> Jill

In hindsight, I thought so as well, it was a *panic* moment for sure!!
Knowing the furballs won't get sprayed is a reileif, though.  I just hope
they don't become such good freinds that Chablis invites them in... 'Hey,
come meet my hooman, mabey he'll feed you...mrrrp'

Signature

Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

CatNipped - 09 Apr 2005 22:07 GMT
> <SNIP>
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I was FLOORED!!!!

Good thing you *didn't* lob the bottle at him, he probably *would* have
sprayed if you'd done that, then poor Chablis *and* poor you trying to
*clean* Chablis!!  ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas
jmcquown - 09 Apr 2005 22:11 GMT
>> <SNIP>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> CatNipped

One of John's dogs got sprayed by a skunk.  He gave her a bath; it didn't
help.  If only he'd called me.  A rinse in tomato juice followed by a good
shampooing mostly removes the stink.  Don't ask me why but it works.

Jill
Takayuki - 10 Apr 2005 03:56 GMT
>A skunk walked right up to Chablis  (At this
>point I was grabbing empty beer bottles to lob as artillery if needed). They
>sniffed noses, Chablis let out a little 'mrrrp' & the skunk walked back the
>way it had come.

That is very cute!  I have a theory - a skunk is marked like a reverse
cat, sort of like a tuxedo cat showing its belly, so maybe to a cat, a
skunk looks especially friendly.

Okay, that's probably the dumbest theory ever. :)
Kreisleriana - 10 Apr 2005 04:24 GMT
>>A skunk walked right up to Chablis  (At this
>>point I was grabbing empty beer bottles to lob as artillery if needed). They
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Okay, that's probably the dumbest theory ever. :)

I always thought little tiny Mimi (RB) looked like the poor little
tuxedo cat  Pepe LePew was always falling in love with:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/125591586/203810491iBNZxa

Theresa
Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh
My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 10 Apr 2005 04:28 GMT
> >A skunk walked right up to Chablis  (At this
> >point I was grabbing empty beer bottles to lob as artillery if needed). They
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Okay, that's probably the dumbest theory ever. :)

Actually, it could be a very good theory.  The cat sees what markings
would make seem a belly, so they are friendly.

Of course, then you have a powerfully confused cat, since the nose
touch is on level.  Kitty is probably thinking, "Poor deformed little
thing, it's feet are growing out of it's back.  I guess I should be
nice."

Smokie Darling (Annie) - who used to feed a skunk that came around, but
I think another critter got to her, I haven't seen her for two or three
years.
Enfilade - 10 Apr 2005 01:56 GMT
> > Well, we have mountain lions (rare, but they do come down), bear (also
> > a bit rare, but I've seen two every winter, we used to feed them with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> EEEEK!  Mountain lions, bears, feral dogs?  Where is it exactly in the US
> that you live?   (remind me not to go there..;-) )

I lived in Southwestern Ontario, and on my own property when I was 14,
I was attacked by a pack of feral dogs.  It was me with a shilleigh
(walking stick) and my yellow lab against 3 of them.  We won.

We don't have bears in our area, but we do have coyotes and a few
wolves, and also we have rabid foxes on occasion (my dad has shot
several of them.)

I now live in Halifax, where there is less wild life, but more wild
drivers.  I myself have had some close calls with cats, and I drive
below the limits in town.  I'm not letting my cats out there!

--Fil
CatNipped - 09 Apr 2005 19:00 GMT
> As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
> an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Smokie Darling (Annie)

First, toys.  The favorites here are (in order of preference) "Red Dot
Greeble" (laser pointer), "Panic Mouse" (only under supervision), cat
dancer, bird on a stick, and jingle balls.  They also have just about every
other toy ever designed for cats.  Play with him hard enough to wear him out
so he's ready to sleep.

Do you have a place where you could put an outdoor enclosure?  Even if you
can't afford to buy one, some 2 x 4s and chicken wire can be used to make an
adequate enclosure if you, or someone you know, is handy.

Time and patience.  Eventually he will get used to being inside and
appreciate it (ask Enfilade how Smokey feels about going outside now after
having lived the good life for a while!  ;>).

Hugs,

CatNipped
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 09 Apr 2005 21:57 GMT
> > As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
> > an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).
< < < < <snipped> >

> > When will he stop asking out?  I've had friends whose cats "killed"
> > themselves after being snipped (and they were both Siamese, and he's
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> other toy ever designed for cats.  Play with him hard enough to wear him out
> so he's ready to sleep.

He has many, many toys, but when he's insisting they are of no interest
to him.  I'm convinced he must be part "crocodile", lay him on his
back, rub his tummy and he falls asleep.

> Do you have a place where you could put an outdoor enclosure?  Even if you
> can't afford to buy one, some 2 x 4s and chicken wire can be used to make an
> adequate enclosure if you, or someone you know, is handy.

You know...  I like this idea.  Even if I had to carry him out to one.
I think I can talk the DH into making an enclosure, on the grass, in
the shade of a tree, that might be just the ticket for "all" my babies.
I like this idea ALOT, then we could all (them, the Dee Oh Gee, and
me) be safely out.  Hmmm, gotta plan a spot in the yard....

> Time and patience.  Eventually he will get used to being inside and
> appreciate it (ask Enfilade how Smokey feels about going outside now after
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> CatNipped

None of the 3 regulars has been out much (they are scared of OUT).  I
think it'd be good for them to be able to lie on some grass on a hot
summer day, and feel the breeze (since they seem to adore the open
windows) for a little bit.

Funny thing is Li'l Bit, she's always been an OUT cat (she's less than
one year old), and she wants nothing to do with OUT.  Taught her not to
fight with Smokie by threatening OUT (and putting her out with me in
attendance for 5 minutes), she's been behaving herself by staying in
the back of the house and Smokie is in the front.  Smart little thing.

Smokie Darling (Annie) - Counting on all of you to give me great advice
(and you have yet to fail me) <VBG>
jmcquown - 09 Apr 2005 22:04 GMT
>>> As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he
>>> will be an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> You know...  I like this idea.  Even if I had to carry him out to one.

I carry Persia to hers.  Mine wasn't built; it's a Kitty Walk mesh enclosure
on my patio.

> I think I can talk the DH into making an enclosure, on the grass, in
> the shade of a tree, that might be just the ticket for "all" my
>  babies. I like this idea ALOT, then we could all (them, the Dee Oh
> Gee, and me) be safely out.  Hmmm, gotta plan a spot in the yard....

Make sure they have a little spot of sunshine, too.  You know how kitties
adore basking in the warmth of the sun :)

If the enclosure is big enough, you could have various shelves for the
kitties to lounge on at different heights.

Jill
Tanada - 10 Apr 2005 20:07 GMT
> None of the 3 regulars has been out much (they are scared of OUT).  I
> think it'd be good for them to be able to lie on some grass on a hot
> summer day, and feel the breeze (since they seem to adore the open
> windows) for a little bit.

Several of us have made enclosures for our furry owners.  Ours is
entered through a magnetic cat door set in a 2X12 that is caulked into
one of our bedroom windows.  The window opens up into a tunnel then into
a 12 X 16 X 9 Ft fully covered enclosure that also contains ramps,
climbing poles (actually part of the supports, wrapped in sisal)
shelves, and logs, stairs and more.

I really love Victor and Tom's enclosure, its a work of art in progress.
 I'm sure there are others who can tell you about their kitty jails.

Ours was based on the website http://www.just4cats.com/  I showed Rob
the website and asked if he could make us something similar.  I think
his surpassed the plans that you can order through them.

Pam S. who could use ideas for plants to soften up the outlines of the
enclosure that the cats will like (especially vines)
Takayuki - 10 Apr 2005 20:20 GMT
>Pam S. who could use ideas for plants to soften up the outlines of the
>enclosure that the cats will like (especially vines)

Kudzu. :)
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 10 Apr 2005 21:04 GMT
> >Pam S. who could use ideas for plants to soften up the outlines of the
> >enclosure that the cats will like (especially vines)
>
> Kudzu. :)

Oh Gawd, no...  I hated that stuff (lived in Andalusia, Alabama for 3.5
years), pretty green and all, but my goodness trying to get rid of it,
once it started in the yard.

My neighbors have some Irises that have gone "native".  They've started
climbing up the chainlink fence, and it's actually quite lovely.  If
the winds don't tear them up, I'll have to see if I can get a couple of
pictures (the feral cats eat the leaves and the petals with what seems
to have no ill effect on them).

OF course, we also have a lovely climbing, flowering vine-like plant,
called Moon Flowers (I believe).  Whatever it is, as pretty as it is,
you have to watch for people coming into your yard.  Supposedly, the
seeds that the flower produces are powerful hallucinogens (sp?).  Not
sure if they affect cats, but why risk it?

I ended ripping all mine out, and wimpering the whole time because they
really were beautiful (white, pink, red, and purple flowers about the
size of tea plates, and they smelled purty too).  Because of the
teenagers who wanted to "get high".

Smokie Darling (Annie)
jmcquown - 10 Apr 2005 22:21 GMT
>> Pam S. who could use ideas for plants to soften up the outlines of
>> the enclosure that the cats will like (especially vines)
>
> Kudzu. :)

You must be joking.  Kudzu is way out of hand.  However, Wisteria... it's
not only got pretty purple flowers that look like grapes, it's also... out
of hand!! ;)

Jill
Tanada - 10 Apr 2005 23:13 GMT
>>Pam S. who could use ideas for plants to soften up the outlines of the
>>enclosure that the cats will like (especially vines)
>
> Kudzu. :)

Bite your tongue, Tak.  There are parts of this area that look like
they've been overrun with strangely shaped topiaries because of kudzu.
That stuff can grow as much as a foot a day and is almost impossible to
get rid of.

Pam S. who was thinking clematis, until she found out that is it
poisonous to cats and d*gs
Enfilade - 10 Apr 2005 01:52 GMT
> Time and patience.  Eventually he will get used to being inside and
> appreciate it (ask Enfilade how Smokey feels about going outside now after
> having lived the good life for a while!  ;>).

Smokey tried to jump out the window the first night in our apartment
and, since then, has been wary of approaching an open window, lest
outside reach in and get him.  The kittens get outside walks on a
leash-Smokey refuses to get to his feet if forced to go out.  He just
lies on his back/side and SCREAMS like a human baby.

Make sure your cats have places to climb and play (cat tree/cat
furniture, scratching post, etc.)  Toys are also important, to give
him something to do.  cat grass and catnip will give him something
fresh and green to eat if he wants to, and he won't have to go outside
to get it.  Cat grass can be bought as seeds and is easy to grow.

I think inside is the way to go--two of my friends have lost cats in
the past couple years, one to a car, and one to coyotes.  Give Leo a
few weeks to acclimatize.

--Fil
Pat - 09 Apr 2005 19:22 GMT
My very best advice is to get him a kitten, and let them both always stay
indoors if you live near any traffic at all.
Cheryl Perkins - 09 Apr 2005 19:37 GMT
<snip>
> How long are we going to argue this point?  I believe he has never been
> an "inside" kitty.  I know he knows how to use the litter boxes (even
> Li'l Bit who was NEVER inside, 'til me, knows how to use one).  Who can
> give me some ideas to "distract" him?

<snip>

Couple months, anyway, and he might get kind of antsy at increasing
intervals afterwards, especially in spring. Oddly enough, of my two,
Mandy, who was never in her life an Out cat, was and is the most
determined would-be Out cat of the pair. We lack your wild animals (this
far from the woods, at least!) but when I moved to this house, I thought
the fenced back yard, surrounded by other yards, would be fine for an
adventurous cat. I didn't realize Mandy is completely confident of her
ability to run off other animals (including the wheeled kind), and I don't
think we'd been there 6 months before a neighbour told be there was a cat
run over out front, and it looked like one of mine! She was lucky to
survive, and although she made a few escapes, she was officially an inside
cat except when on leash from the time I got her back from TED.

Betsy, who actually had survived part of her short life on the street
before I adopted her, doesn't like the Out at all. She will sometimes, ver
briefly, come out in the back with me and Mandy, but she'll wriggle out of
her harness to get back *in* the house! And she never cries to go out. No
bowls of cat food, no nice soft place to rest - why should she?

Signature

Cheryl

Jo Firey - 09 Apr 2005 20:27 GMT
> As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
> an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Smokie Darling (Annie)

No real help here.  I've never been able to keep a cat in.  Partly because
Charlie believes they should be allowed out.   But we have lived in
relatively safe areas.

It sounds as if you do not.  I want to offer you a lot of encouragement.
Cats are stubborn.  Siamese cats invented stubborn.

Jo
jmcquown - 09 Apr 2005 20:59 GMT
> As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will
> be an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Smokie Darling (Annie)

Lots of toys to keep him occupied.  Open the windows if you have secure
screens and let him "smell" the outside but not go out.  He'll calm down in
a few weeks or a month.  And I'll second what Lori (Catnipped) said; if you
can give him an outside enclosure that would be ideal.  Persia is out in
hers now and that's as far OUT as she ever cares to go anymore.

Jill
zuzu22@webtv.net - 09 Apr 2005 21:14 GMT
>how long am I going to hear the crying to
>get out, the jumping up the wall trying to
>get to windows?

It depends. It could be anywhere from a few weeks to a few months, but
in my experience the behavior eventually stops. There are a few
compromises you can make that will make it easier for the both of you.
You could build an outdoor enclosure that is attached to your house and
is accessible via a cat door built into a window or some-such, although
I would would close it off at night and keep the cat in since you have
large predators in the area.

Another option is to train your cat to a harness and leash and take him
out at set times each day. Cats are very routine oriented animals and if
you do certain things the same way every day they do find comfort in
that, especially cats that have been in shelter situations or abandoned
and have experienced negative changes in their lives and had to live
with no continuity or schedules.

If your cat knows he gets to go out on the harness at a certain time
each day, he'll have something to look forward to (just as cats that are
fed scheduled meals know when breakfast and dinner time are near) and
his *knowing* that he will be able to go out at certain times will help
to stop his crying behavior at other times.

The absolute best harness for a cat is called a walking jacket and, when
properly adjusted, is inescapable. You can read more about them, see
what they look like and get leash training tips here:
http://www.hdw-inc.com/walkingjackets.htm

If you want to purchase one you can get it for a better price here:
http://www.metpet.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/walkingjacket.html

Stick with the soft sided one as it's more comfortable for the cat and
fits better. HTH.

Megan

                                   
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Steve Touchstone - 09 Apr 2005 21:22 GMT
>As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
>an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Li'l Bit who was NEVER inside, 'til me, knows how to use one).  Who can
>give me some ideas to "distract" him?

Purrs coming that you'll win and he is soon happy being IN instead of
OUT facing the traffic hazards. No real advice, as I never won this
type of argument.

Hindsight being 20/20, I wish I had tried harder to insist that Rocky
(RB) stay inside. I felt he would be safe enough - after all he had
lived an estimated 6 years feral, then a couple more semi-feral, in
this neighborhood before deciding to retire and join our household.
Part of the problem with losing Rocky is that I'll never know how he
was injured. TED couldn't find any obvious signs of mauling or being
hit by a car.

After reading Karen's post in another thread about not wishing to
intrude with memories of Grant, I've spent most of this NG session
thinking of Rocky. Like I said in my reponse to Karen, I think readers
here understand what losing a furry master means a lot better than the
people we interact with day to day in RL.

>When will he stop asking out?  I've had friends whose cats "killed"
>themselves after being snipped (and they were both Siamese, and he's
>part Siamese).  I'm serious about that.  He is only a year old,
>according to TED.
>
>Smokie Darling (Annie)

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Hopitus - 09 Apr 2005 22:11 GMT
Since you asked for advice I'm giving you MHO. I regard my furry masters as
similar to small children, who
must be protected from peril in spite of their "wannas" or
"rights". Don't let your cat out, he is prey not only to traffic but there
are lotsa folks who hate cats who put out
poison for them, not to mention dogs, who travel in packs and will corner
and kill as a group. Your cat will
probably get over his OUT-"wannas" in about a month or so. I have adopted
many strays over years and have found this to be true. I could never live
w/myself if one of them met his death because I let him roam free outside.
I can't rig up the window-box thing and only open windows just less than a
cat-head's width as we are on
penthouse level 4th floor here and my cats actually see
birds flying by @ our level in the air - they're no spring chickens, these
cats, but you can imagine their reaction!
We live in densely populated urban heavy traffic surroundings now.....but
things were exactly the same in
suburban, low-traffic cul-de-sac home we left, AFA them staying indoors 24/7
except there I used to put them out on lawn inside a metal dog cage, to eat
grass while I sat nearby.

>>As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
>>an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>>
>>Smokie Darling (Annie)
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 09 Apr 2005 22:26 GMT
> Since you asked for advice I'm giving you MHO. I regard my furry masters as
> similar to small children, who
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> except there I used to put them out on lawn inside a metal dog cage, to eat
> grass while I sat nearby.

Heh, heh, heh...  I have no intention of letting him win, and letting
him out.  Just my weirdness, but I think a neutered male would not feel
the need to fight an un-neutered tom, and he'd get hurt from that
aspect (not to mention the other aspects I've previously listed).  I
was just curious as to how long I'd have to "fight" with him over it,
and what options I might have with "controlled" outside visits (I think
I'll look at metal dog cages, then there won't be any "building" to be
done, THANKS!!  And my hubby probably thanks ya too, though he doesn't
know he might be enlisted to build something  ;)).

You and I are on the same page here.
Hopitus - 10 Apr 2005 01:50 GMT
Re metal dog cages.....mine is about size of a cage for a
medium (doberman-sized) dog, it has a plastic washable
slide-in bottom, which of course is out when cats are
grass-feeding. I always sat w/them because although a
dog (like the Rotties & mastiff who lived next door in FL) could really not
harm them because of the bars, it
would be a very stressful happening to cats if a dog wandered by and came
over after seeing them caged up
like that.
Suggestion: those cages ain't cheap: I bought mine @
Petsmart on sale for about $100. If you know anyone w/large dogs whose dog
died OR visit thrift shops where
you could find one dirt cheap comparatively speaking OR maybe flea markets
locally.

>> Since you asked for advice I'm giving you MHO. I regard my furry
> masters as
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> You and I are on the same page here.
jmcquown - 10 Apr 2005 04:53 GMT
>> Since you asked for advice I'm giving you MHO. I regard my furry
>> masters as similar to small children, who
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> You and I are on the same page here.

Look at the mesh enclosures by Kitty Walk systems.  They can be staked to
the ground in the back yard or placed on a patio or deck.

Jill
CATherine - 09 Apr 2005 21:53 GMT
>As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
>an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Smokie Darling (Annie)

Have you thought about useing Feliway? That might calm him down for
long enough to get him used to being indoors.

--
CATherine
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 09 Apr 2005 21:58 GMT
> >As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
> >an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> --
> CATherine

Okay, at the risk of sounding like a complete moron...  What is Feliway?
CatNipped - 09 Apr 2005 22:21 GMT
> Okay, at the risk of sounding like a complete moron...  What is Feliway?

Not at all!  I don't know *anybody* who know *everything* (although I know a
few people who *think* they do!  ;>).

Here's a good link with Feliway info:

http://www.placervillevet.com/feliway.htm

Hugs,

CatNipped
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 09 Apr 2005 22:29 GMT
> > Okay, at the risk of sounding like a complete moron...  What is Feliway?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> CatNipped

Hmmm, available at PetSmart...  I think I'm going shopping (tomorrow).
Many, many thanks.

Smokie Darling (Annie)
Victor Martinez - 09 Apr 2005 23:53 GMT
> When will he stop asking out?  I've had friends whose cats "killed"

It depends on the cat, I guessed. Xoxo never really asked to be left out
once he realized it was nice and dry and warm inside... :)

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EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 09 Apr 2005 23:55 GMT
> As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
> an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
> need advice here, how long am I going to hear the crying to get out,
> the jumping up the wall trying to get to windows?  He has managed to
> avoid the busy street near my house so far, but...

Well, Melisande ceased to be an indoor/outdoor cat four
years ago, but she still haunts the door, I can hear her
meowing all the way to the building elevator (hopefully only
when I leave or return), and if I'm not quite fast enough
with that squirt of water as I open the door to get in,
she's out and away.  Fortunately, so long as I remember to
check the door to the outside at the end of the hall before
I unlock mine, she can't go anywhere, but chasing her up
four flights of stairs to corner her at the door to the roof
is not my favoirte exercise!)
hobbs - 13 Apr 2005 11:19 GMT
No, but its good exersize, wish I could do it.
                                 Jean.P.

> > As you know, Leonidas has been snipped.  I have decided that he will be
> > an indoor cat (depending on which of us is the most strong willed).  I
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> four flights of stairs to corner her at the door to the roof
> is not my favoirte exercise!)
Cheryl - 10 Apr 2005 23:29 GMT
> When will he stop asking out?  I've had friends whose cats
> "killed" themselves after being snipped (and they were both
> Siamese, and he's part Siamese).  I'm serious about that.  He is
> only a year old, according to TED.

How did your friends cats kill themselves? I hope that isn't literal!  
Purrs for a successful indoor integration. I guess I've been lucky.
My cats have always come from the outdoors but never seemed to want
to be outdoor cats. At least to the point that I had to worry about
escape. Good luck and purrs!

Signature

Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

Smokie Darling (Annie) - 10 Apr 2005 23:57 GMT
> > When will he stop asking out?  I've had friends whose cats
> > "killed" themselves after being snipped (and they were both
> > Siamese, and he's part Siamese).  I'm serious about that.  He is
> > only a year old, according to TED.
>
> How did your friends cats kill themselves? I hope that isn't literal!

> Purrs for a successful indoor integration. I guess I've been lucky.
> My cats have always come from the outdoors but never seemed to want
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> breath."
> - W.C. Fields

That wasn't a joke in any way (aside from being in bad taste here).
The only mistake was it was one cat, not multiples, sorry about that.
My friend had a Siamese (Sam) boy, he was sooo sweet, and lovey, and
intact.  When he turned 4 or 5 years old he developed a nasty habit
(spraying mostly) and the vet recommended a neuter.  She agreed.

He was fixed, and after a week of recuperation, she finally let him
out.  She lived on very "slow" street with little traffic.  He lay
beside the road, in the grass all day, until the neighbor came home
from work, then (she watched this from her window) he ran out right in
front of the car.  The only good thing was it was quick.  It was like
he had just waited all day for the car to come by.

Smokie Darling (Annie)

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