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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / March 2005Bonnie and Clyde
This morning is a vast improvement. Bonnie wants to play but can't walk too far comfortably. So, she is inside her favourite cardboard box. In the past she has bitten this box all around the sides. She is now lying inside and munching pieces off and spitting them out! In the meantime Clyde has developed a nasty habit. He is spraying in the house. Last night I caught him three times - once on the presently defunct dishwasher (I admit it deserved it) but the sofa didn't, neither did the blind. I whacked him with a rolled up newspaper and rubbed his nose in it but it is going to be a trial. Spraying is very hard to stop. I know TED can give hormone injections but I suspect they don't work very well. Groan. Bev  SignatureCats aren't clean, they're just covered with cat spit. > In the meantime Clyde has developed a nasty habit. He is spraying in the > house. Last night I caught him three times - once on the presently defunct > dishwasher (I admit it deserved it) but the sofa didn't, neither did the > blind. I whacked him with a rolled up newspaper and rubbed his nose in it > but it is going to be a trial. Spraying is very hard to stop. I know TED > can give hormone injections but I suspect they don't work very well. Groan. Everything I've heard and read suggests that rubbing a pet's nose in their mess doesn't help. That being said, I don't know how you stop a cat from spraying. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >> In the meantime Clyde has developed a nasty habit. He is spraying >> in the house. Last night I caught him three times - once on the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > their mess doesn't help. That being said, I don't know how you stop > a cat from spraying. ... other than to have him checked for a UTI. Persia never let on she was ill but she definitely was (poor baby) and the only way I knew it was she was urinating in places not appreciated. Jill It works for a dog, but I don't think it works for a cat Kristi > It works for a dog, but I don't think it works for a cat > > Kristi Not according to the dog training books I've read. Here are some articles that talk about *why* you shouldn't do so ... http://www.doglogic.com/apdtfaqs.htm#CRATESAND "When your dog has an accident do not rub his nose in it or hit him. a. If you catch him in the act of eliminating, startle him with your voice, scold him and immediately take him to his toilet area. Praise him there if he finishes eliminating. Praise him mildly even if he only sniffs the area. b. If you didn't catch him in the act, don't scold him when you find the mess, just clean it up and vow to watch him more closely. Punishing after the fact doesn't work. Your dog simply can't understand and connect your punishment with the act of eliminating which he did sometime before. If this punishment method worked, all dogs would be housebroken! He may look submissive ("guilty") because he knows you are angry at him - he can easily tell by your body posture and tone of voice - but this has no bearing on the act of elimina-tion he did earlier. c. Clean accidents thoroughly as the scent will draw him back to use the area again. Don't use ammonia as there is ammonia in urine. d. If your dog consistently house soils in one area try feeding him there or keep his water bowl there. e. If accidents are frequent he needs to be watched much more closely and taken out more often." http://www.dogtrainersearch.com/articles/amydunphy/housetraining.htm "What if my puppy has an accident? He will. Do not punish your puppy though. If you catch your puppy in the act then clap your hands or pick them up - this will make your puppy stop going. Get him outside FAST and let him finish up out there. Reward him for going outside. Clean up the mess with natures miracle which will remove the odor completely. Do NOT rub their nose in it, swat them with a newspaper, or isolate your puppy. It will only teach them to not go in front of you. " http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/deeley4.htm "If the young pup has an accident and urinates indoors (usually because an owner has not been watching closely enough or doing 'puppy management' correctly), often they shout at it, chase it down and take it outside telling it what a bad dog it has been in a very stern voice. They may even rub its nose in the urine to 'show it' what a bad pup it has been and 'teach it a lesson', thinking someone somewhere said that was the thing to do. As pup grows up and 'learns' from these experiences it knows people enjoy them jumping up, that hands grab when you don't want them to, that humans disturb and irritate you when you are not in the mood, and it learns that hands and people sometimes must be avoided or warned off. It also learns that it is not pleasant to urinate when people are around (even in the yard!) or if you do hide so they cannot see you doing it. These are just a few examples of how a pup learns and is taught the wrong behavior without owners even realizing." Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > It works for a dog, but I don't think it works for a cat > > Kristi No, it doesn't work for a dog either. It's one of those old-fashioned "my grandfather used to do it" practises that is now considered ineffectual and inhumane and should have died out years ago but somehow it hasn't. Pity. All it does is make your pet afraid of you. Tweed > I whacked him with a rolled up newspaper and rubbed his > nose in it but it is going to be a trial. Ohmygawd, Bev, *please* don't hit him again! This *doesn't work*!!! It will not change a cat's behavior except to make him afraid of you. There are lots of other things you can do, but the first is to get him to a vet to check for a UTI or other problem. Also, if Deo if hanging around, that could be causing Clyde to spray his territory. In either case, hitting the cat *WILL NOT WORK*! Hugs, CatNipped > > I whacked him with a rolled up newspaper and rubbed his > > nose in it but it is going to be a trial. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > CatNipped I would highly suspect since Deo has gotten in the house, this is the main problem. Anyway to keep him out? Clean really well with an enzymatic cleaner. I would also check for UTI just in case, but since you mentioned in the other thread about Deo that is problem the number one reason. Physical punishment will ony make Clyde associate punishment with you and he will have no idea what is going on since to mark is instinctual when another male is around. > In the meantime Clyde has developed a nasty habit. He is spraying in > the house. Last night I caught him three times - once on the presently [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stop. I know TED can give hormone injections but I suspect they don't > work very well. Groan. I've always heard that neither hitting them or rubbing their noses in it helps - or is that dogs? Something about how they don't connect the punishment with the act unless you actually catch them, um, well, literally in the act. As far as they're concerned you are wacking or rubbing them for some bizarre human reason, completely unconnected with anything they may have done. I have heard that it is *extremely* important to clean anyplace they hit, and it isn't good enought to clean it so that humans can't smell it, you need to clean it so that cats can't smell it, which is harder. And if they can smell it, they will think they are doing the right thing if they spray or pee in the same place again. Pet stores and some vets sell special cleaners that help take the smell out. Besides making sure he doesn't have a urinary tract problem, like someone else suggested, think about psychological causes. Is there an Introodur Cat hanging around outside, particularly an intact male one, that might be upsetting him? Some thing or some one in the house that's upsetting him - anything from a new pet or person to a change in cat litter? good luck SignatureCheryl I copied this from another knowledgeable cat board I go to: The first thing to do to try and curb them from doing this is you MUST neutralize all the areas where the cat is urinating inappropriately. We here on the Cat's board recommend the use of a product called Simple Solution for Cat Urine - you can purchase it in most pet supply stores. It is a urine odor "neutralizer" - if you buy something that says "eliminator" it probably won't work. By neutralizing the area - you are basically making the cat think there is NO scent there. It may take several applications, but it WILL work. Let it dry on it's own after each application. Once you do that, place a small amount of dry cat food in a bowl on or near the area if possible...cats will not eat where they urinate and vice versa. After neutralizing the odor, we recommended that you use a product called Feliway on the areas where the cat has peed. Feliway is a facial pheromone spray that makes the areas smell familiar and comforting. Cats won't spray where they smell this. It is available at most vets and on several on-line pet supply stores. Follow the package instructions. As a very last resort if the above things do not work, consult with your veterinarian about placing him or her on a low dose of valium, buspar or possibly a "natural" remedy such as Rescue Remedy or Lavender. Katz > I copied this from another knowledgeable cat board I go to: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Katz Good advice from everyone. Incidentally I don't hurt Clyde, the cuff with the newspaper is to give him a fright and I don't apologise for that - I have to try something. Burmese are very intelligent and it may be that he will get the message eventually. However that said I can't live in a urine saturated house either! I don't even know where he has sprayed unless I catch him at it or find a damp patch. I've cleaned down areas he has sprayed in with some odour removing stuff I got from the vet. Clyde does not have any UTI. I suspect I have Deo to thank for Clyde's spraying as Deo comes around every night and sometimes during the day and sprays the back door and porch from end to end. I clean it all up of course but I can't be there every minute. If the worse comes to the worst Clyde will have to spend his nights in the cat house with FSP and be an outside cat for a large part of the day. I will simply have to supervise him when he comes inside. Fortunately the cat house is warm and cozy and Clyde likes sleeping in there at any time. Bev >> I copied this from another knowledgeable cat board I go to: >> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Bev It may well be that he is upset that Bonnie is hurt and the spraying is his way of "protecting" her. Jo > Good advice from everyone. Incidentally I don't hurt Clyde, the cuff > with the newspaper is to give him a fright and I don't apologise for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > during the day and sprays the back door and porch from end to end. I > clean it all up of course but I can't be there every minute. Are Bonnie and Clyde neutered, or had you planned to breed them? (Not to each other, of course.) The urban legend is that a neutered tom doesn't spray, although I've had more than one that did, even one who had the operation well before he reached maturity. (In fact, I've even had a female or two who did so - not just "urinating in inappropriate places", but actually backing up to a wall or piece of furniture and SPRAYING!) My guess is it's more a territorial thing, and how do you deal with that if the other cat is where yours can see it? However that said I can't > live in a urine saturated house either! I don't even know where he has > sprayed unless I catch him at it or find a damp patch. Bev, get a black light so that you can tell where he's sprayed. The one I bought is called the "Super Stink Finder"...I bought the small one but I'd recommend springing for the larger one. That way you can clean all areas he's sprayed. Also, please listen to the people singing the praises of Feliway..it is a wonderful product for your your problem. If that doesn't work, talk to your vet about buspirone. (Buspar). My daugher saw great improvement with Feliway, but it just wasn't enough for Tommy. He was put on an extremely low dose and never sprayed again. He was like your Clyde. He would become agitated at other cats spraying around outside and that would set him off. Sherry Bev <bevdun@xtra.co.nz> had some very interesting things to say about Bonnie and Clyde: >In the meantime Clyde has developed a nasty habit. He is spraying in >the house. Last night I caught him three times - once on the presently [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >stop. I know TED can give hormone injections but I suspect they don't >work very well. Groan. He *is* neutered, isn't he? Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > Bev <bevdun@xtra.co.nz> had some very interesting things to say about > Bonnie and Clyde: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. > :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL Yes, he's neutered. Bev SignatureCats aren't clean, they're just covered with cat spit. Bev <bevdun@xtra.co.nz> had some very interesting things to say about Re: Bonnie and Clyde: >> >In the meantime Clyde has developed a nasty habit. He is spraying in >> >the house. Last night I caught him three times - once on the presently [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> He *is* neutered, isn't he? >Yes, he's neutered. Hmmm, AFAIK they don't usually take up spraying if they were neutered young. OTOH, we had a spayed female or two who sprayed. Ava thinks I'm her perch, apparently, since she's currently attempting the birdie-loaf position on top of my head. Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > Hmmm, AFAIK they don't usually take up spraying if they were neutered > young. You've just been lucky! > OTOH, we had a spayed female or two who sprayed. Yeah, me too! > This morning is a vast improvement. Bonnie wants to play but can't > walk too far comfortably. So, she is inside her favourite cardboard [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Bev I don't think whacking cats with rolled up newspapers and rubbing their nose in it is an effective way to stop him from spraying. In fact, I think it is most ineffective. Clyde is neutered, right? He may have a UTI, so the first thing you should do is have him checked by the vet. -- Britta "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album . I whacked him with a rolled up newspaper and rubbed his > nose in it I've been told that if you rub a cats nose in it, that makes them think as it smells of them it's an okay place to do their business. We only had a problem with Speedy Joe (Neuteuring that cat didn't seem to make a great deal of difference to his macho attitudes) and I found that rubbing half a lemon or an onion (I didn't know about onions at the time!)over the spot worked, apparently cats can't stand the smell of either so it makes it a less desirable place to spray. The tip about putting food down is a good one, cats don't like to spray where they eat. The only problem is you could end up with lots of food dishes around the place and an obese cat (If we tried that with Sarrasine in the house- we would! As I've said before she is a criminal genius, it wouldn't take her too long to work out "If I pee here, they put food down so if I pee there will they put down more food? Yes? Oh good I'll just go and have a really really BIG drink of watee!") Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs >In the meantime Clyde has developed a >nasty habit. He is spraying in the house. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >a rolled up newspaper and rubbed his >nose in it but it is going to be a trial. This makes me so angry (and those of you who want to flame me for being angry should consider that by doing so you're defending an animal abuser.) Hitting Clyde and rubbing his nose in urine is nothing short of animal abuse and it's especially disgusting since *you* have created this problem. By allowing the cats outside to roam freely they have suffered from serious injury and constant fighting and now you have one cat in pain unnecessarily and another that's so stressed out from all the fighting with the neighbor cat that he is now marking territory. You shouldn't have cats, but since you seem to like to post stories about the ongoing suffering of these poor animals my guess is you have no intention of finding them a home with someone that will care for them properly. In light of that you need to learn about cat behavior and how to care for them. Talk to the neighbors about Deo and tell them they are going to have to figure out a way to keep him off of your property and you will keep your cats off of theirs. At the same time you have this big cathouse that was built for the cats. Use it. That is a good compromise where they can get outside time and be safe from harm. If you allow this to continue the next story we'll hear is about Clyde and Deo having a fight in the road and getting killed by a car. Get some Feliway diffusers for indoors to alleviate some of the stress Clyde is feeling which is causing him to spray. Being abusive to him is only going to make things worse and to do such a horrendous thing to an animal so much smaller than you, especially when the behavior is the result of your negligence, is inexcusable. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
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