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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / March 2005OT, re: birth control
Sorry for yet another OT post, but a while back we were discussing the symptoms of birth control pills and I just found this lovely bit of info: http://www.uistudenthealth.com/question/default.asp?ID=490 It's possible that the various symptoms I'm experiencing (pretty much everything you'd associate with PMS, only all month) are actually related to getting off of Depo, not getting on my pill. Unfortunately, this means it will be quite a while till I figure out what's causing my body to go all haywire. Anyway, I thought others who either might use birth control or whose partners might use birth control would find this interesting. I had no idea =/ ObCat: I tried to feed Oscar some salmon tonight, but she was totally uninterested. I guess it wasn't stinky enough.  Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > It's possible that the various symptoms I'm experiencing (pretty much > everything you'd associate with PMS, only all month) are actually related to > getting off of Depo, not getting on my pill. > Unfortunately, this means it will be quite a while till I figure out what's > causing my body to go all haywire. > Anyway, I thought others who either might use birth control or whose partners > might use birth control would find this interesting. I had no idea =/ There is the possibility of side effects to almost anything you take. I've heard of a quite nasty depression clearing up when birth control pills were discontinued. It's always worthwhile being informed about possible side effects of something you are taking routinely, even when it's something that many or most people can take without problems. SignatureCheryl > There is the possibility of side effects to almost anything you take. I've > heard of a quite nasty depression clearing up when birth control pills were > discontinued. It's always worthwhile being informed about possible side > effects of something you are taking routinely, even when it's something that > many or most people can take without problems. Yes, but I've done my research about side effects to depo and the pill. The news to me was that depo can cause side effects *when you get off of it*, not just when you start taking it. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > > There is the possibility of side effects to almost anything you take. I've > > heard of a quite nasty depression clearing up when birth control pills were [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The news to me was that depo can cause side effects *when you get off of it*, > not just when you start taking it. I think that as much trouble as you are having, I would ask for a baseline hormone test to start with and see what they find. Maybe even bloodwork for thyroid and diabetes. No kidding, all that blood chemistry affects each other. And sometimes, what we are eating even affects our hormones. I guess I wonder if you don't kind of need to start at the bottom getting off everything, see where you start out, and go from there. > I think that as much trouble as you are having, I would ask for a baseline > hormone test to start with and see what they find. Maybe even bloodwork for > thyroid and diabetes. No kidding, all that blood chemistry affects each > other. And sometimes, what we are eating even affects our hormones. I guess > I wonder if you don't kind of need to start at the bottom getting off > everything, see where you start out, and go from there. Not a bad idea. I've had a recent thyroid exam, with completely normal results, and I've talked to my doctor about diabetes recently too; I don't remember what the tests were, but none of that, either. I'm not sure what a baseline hormone test is, exactly, but since depo will take months to a year to get out of my system, I'm not sure exactly what it would tell me. To get into the yucky details, the only symptom I'm definitely having right now that really bothers me is extremely tender breasts. The undersides feel like they've been bruised, and everything up front is extremely touch-sensitive (in a bad way!) as well. Fortunately, though, it doesn't bother me when I'm working out; maybe my mind's just not on it then. Anyway, I just thought it was rather interesting that depo is known to cause side effects when you *stop* taking it. I'd never heard that before. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca <snip> > Anyway, I just thought it was rather interesting that depo is known to cause > side effects when you *stop* taking it. I'd never heard that before. I hadn't heard of it about depo, but I had certainly heard it about other drugs, and known people who had really bad problems. If you doctor says 'you need to come of this slowly', that's a hint. And if you are on, say, certain anti-depressants, and you doctor *doesn't* tell you how to reduce the dosages very, very slowly, find another doctor. I've also known women who went off various hormone combinations suddenly after that HRT study was released and had problems. -- Cheryl > > I think that as much trouble as you are having, I would ask for a baseline > > hormone test to start with and see what they find. Maybe even bloodwork for [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Anyway, I just thought it was rather interesting that depo is known to cause > side effects when you *stop* taking it. I'd never heard that before. Do you have cysts? Also, there really is such a thing as cyclic and non-cyclic breast pain (see http://imaginis.com/breasthealth/breast_pain.asp) and they don't really know what causes it and they don't know what makes it better or worst. Mine is caused by cysts. I had very tender breasts for over a year. So bad I had to wear bras to bed and nothing helped. THen poof it went away. > Do you have cysts? Also, there really is such a thing as cyclic and > non-cyclic breast pain (see > http://imaginis.com/breasthealth/breast_pain.asp) and they don't really > know what causes it and they don't know what makes it better or worst. Mine > is caused by cysts. I had very tender breasts for over a year. So bad I had > to wear bras to bed and nothing helped. THen poof it went away. No cysts that I know of. I really do think this is related to either the depo or the pill, as it started exactly when I switched from one to the other. Because breast tenderness is a known side effect of both, particularly in the first few months, I'm not concerned yet. I can't imagine being in as much discomfort as you're describing. That must have been awful =/ Mine are only painful to the touch; oddly enough, I can do just about anything without pain, including my martial arts classes, which are very bouncy. (I do wear a sports bra.) Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca Yeah, about 12 months ago I was feeling utterly exhausted {just like I did last week}the Dr wasn't listening to me, in the end I got annoyed and told him I'd been complaining for weeks and it was time he found out *why* I was so tired so he took blood tests and told me the results. My kidney's were failing badly, he decided to take me off tablets one at a time, to see if any was causing this, it took a couple of weeksbut it was the first one he tried a B.P tablet, and my kidneys recovered in no time at all more recently a couple of weeks ago, I asked my new Dr about my swollen ankles, again no-one had listened or cared but she told me to ask my heart Dr to change my cardizam for something else, he did and my anklesare almost back to normal, hardly any swelling at all Jean.P. > > It's possible that the various symptoms I'm experiencing (pretty much > > everything you'd associate with PMS, only all month) are actually related to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > -- > Cheryl > Yeah, about 12 months ago I was feeling utterly exhausted {just like I did > last week}the Dr wasn't listening to me, in the end I got annoyed and told [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cardizam for something else, he did and my anklesare almost back to normal, > hardly any swelling at all Jean.P. Just goes to show that we have to stick up for ourselves in getting the medical care we need, rather than relying on the doctor to go the extra mile. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca Too True, these days they just want to sit there and write you a script,and dont worry about finding out Why a certain thing is happening. Jean.P. > > Yeah, about 12 months ago I was feeling utterly exhausted {just like I did > > last week}the Dr wasn't listening to me, in the end I got annoyed and told [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >Sorry for yet another OT post, but a while back we were discussing the >symptoms of birth control pills and I just found this lovely bit of info: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >ObCat: I tried to feed Oscar some salmon tonight, but she was totally >uninterested. I guess it wasn't stinky mrrrp ???? Love, Stinky Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com > Sorry for yet another OT post, but a while back we were discussing the > symptoms of birth control pills and I just found this lovely bit of info: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Anyway, I thought others who either might use birth control or whose partners > might use birth control would find this interesting. I had no idea =/ Having a barekitten generally fixes those sort of problems. Bwahahahaha. Seriously though, yes, I know what its like to come off depo - my cycle didn't return for over a year, which is why it took 18 months for the Yowlet to be conceived (after 12 months of trying, we were considered infertile). After a few months of regular hormone cycles, you *should* feel OK again. If not, go back to your doctor and/or obgyn Yowie >> It's possible that the various symptoms I'm experiencing (pretty much >> everything you'd associate with PMS, only all month) are actually >> related to getting off of Depo, not getting on my pill. >> > Having a barekitten generally fixes those sort of problems. Bah! That seems like a temporary fix at best, and anyway, you can't fool me! Nursing *can't* be all roses and cherries and whatnot! I figure you get two options while you're still nursing: they hurt because they're full or they hurt because the little one is sucking on 'em. I doubt babies are any gentler than certain partners .... > Bwahahahaha. > > Seriously though, yes, I know what its like to come off depo - my cycle > didn't return for over a year, which is why it took 18 months for the Yowlet > to be conceived (after 12 months of trying, we were considered infertile). I just wish I'd known. I'd never heard of this. My doctor and I had a long talk before deciding to switch me to the Pill, and while side effects of both came up, she never mentioned that I could experience "withdrawal side effects"! I wonder what the polite way is to send a note to your doctor that, hey, this and that happened and you may want to warn other patients about this. I did it by phone when I had to page my orthopedic surgeon because he didn't warn me that his steroid shot had a chance of hurting like a b*tch, and I was way more polite than maybe I should have been! In comparison, though, this is fairly minor. Yowie, did you notice any weight changes while on or off of depo? My excess baggage is in all likelihood my own fault, but I'm wondering if I can blame some of it on the depo, and if so, in what timeframe I might notice a difference. I suspect that if I do lose weight from coming off of depo, though, it will be so gradual I won't really know if it's the meds or not. (Of course, after my chiro appt, I went next door and got an au lait ... and there were these chocolate chip cookies fresh out of the oven on a cooling rack and I just *had* to have one ... yeah, I'm pretty sure the excess baggage is my own damn fault.) > After a few months of regular hormone cycles, you *should* feel OK again. If > not, go back to your doctor and/or obgyn *nod* that's the plan. I never had a period while I was on depo; when I started the pill this time, I was quite surprised to get my period the very first "placebo" week. Surprised and saddened at the end of an era, although I'd imagine being on the pill with no period would freak me out, oh, about once a month. For most of the time I was on Depo, I pretty much assumed it was just like the pill. Now that I'm actually doing the research, I'm realizing they're quite different. Just goes to show, even if you did your research on a condition or medication when it started, it's probably a good idea to look around every few years to see if anything new has been published. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca Warning: adult content . . . . <snip> > Yowie, did you notice any weight changes while on or off of depo? My excess > baggage is in all likelihood my own fault, but I'm wondering if I can blame > some of it on the depo, and if so, in what timeframe I might notice a > difference. I suspect that if I do lose weight from coming off of depo, > though, it will be so gradual I won't really know if it's the meds or not. I put on alot of weight with depo, although of course, it could well be argued that it was because I overate during the nearly 7 years I was on it. (increased from a size 16ish to a size 24 - Australian sizes) Still, my weight has been quite stable since I came off it, indeed, I've lost a small amount (although the pregnancy and birth and nursing makes it difficult to judge how much) since. I thought my weight was fairly stable before the Depo too. When I got it, they said that one of the side effects was possible weight gain, but if I was aware of that and ate accordingly... but who eats celery sticks and lettuce when there's chocolate and cream cakes around? I admit, I eat less junk now than I used to when on Depo, but that may be because I'm craving less, or because my lifestyle has changed, or because I kept the habits that pregnancy forced my to develop etc etc etc. > > After a few months of regular hormone cycles, you *should* feel OK again. If > > not, go back to your doctor and/or obgyn [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'd imagine being on the pill with no period would freak me out, oh, about > once a month. Thats one thing I *loved* baout Depo and hte weight gain, IMHO, was worth it. Nearly 7 years without a period. And they said it was a "side effect". Hah! Besides the contraceptive effect, I'd say that it wasn't so much as a "side effect" as a damn good reason to continue taking it. > For most of the time I was on Depo, I pretty much assumed it was just like the > pill. Now that I'm actually doing the research, I'm realizing they're quite > different. Just goes to show, even if you did your research on a condition or > medication when it started, it's probably a good idea to look around every few > years to see if anything new has been published. Just to worry you (or anyone else on Depo more), the last time I was due to get Depo, I had forgotten my last shot and had to get an "emergency" one and therefore saw a different doctor. The doctor asked me how old I was, and whether I'd had kids or not. I was 34 at the the time, and didn't have any kids. She asked me if I planned to have children any time itneh future - I replied 'yes'. She then asked me how old I was when I had started with the depo. I said I started when I was 28. Her eyes flew open in surprise. According to this new doctor, it wasn't designed to be along term thing, and I was in dire danger of osteoarthritis because of the way depo imitated menopause, plus it could be up to two years before my fertility returned (she was right about that part) and since I was no young duck at the time,s he couldn't in all conscience give me another shot of depo, and strongly advised me not to use any form of hormonal contraceptive until I could show that my cycle had re-stablised and hormone levels had returned to normal. The fact that I screamed as the ob/gyn attempted to fit the diaphram, and neither of us like condoms (ever seen a female condom - funniest things!) is the main reason why Cary showed up. We figured we were being told by The Powers That Be that it was now or never in terms of baby making. We did take a "what ever happens, happens" attitude, rather than actively *trying* to fall pregnant, but it took me 18 months to fall pregnant after my last depo shot ran out. Oh, the reason I started with the Depo in the first place is that I'm truly lousy at remembering to take pills. I'm starting to consider that implant thing, but am a but oogy about being able to feel the implant under my skin. Joel and I can't curently agree on whether we have another child or not. I want another but Joel is quite adament that Cary is just as many as he'll ever be able to cope with. Joel would happily toodle off for the big snip tomorrow but I'm hoping he'll change his mind before I get too old to do anythign about it (remember he's 6 years younger than me). I don't feel it would be right to "oops" him, but do want a contraceptive that I can stop and be fertile again without too much delay if he changes his mind. Wish there was a *male* contraceptive, after all, its Joel that is the one that wants to prevent any further pregnancies, not me. Yowie > Warning: adult content . . . . i > "Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > craving less, or because my lifestyle has changed, or because I kept the > habits that pregnancy forced my to develop etc etc etc. If it were that easy to "eat accordingly," so many of us wouldn't be carrying anything extra in the first place! > Thats one thing I *loved* baout Depo and hte weight gain, IMHO, was worth > it. Nearly 7 years without a period. And they said it was a "side effect". > Hah! Besides the contraceptive effect, I'd say that it wasn't so much as a > "side effect" as a damn good reason to continue taking it. Yeah, I also loved it, although one of the reasons I switched back to the pill is just to confirm that "the plumbing" is all still in working order. I started worrying that I might not be having my period for a variety of other reasons, and once I started worrying I couldn't shake the thought. Turns out not to be a problem! But ... I've found one absolutely wonderful think about getting off of depo. SEVERE TMI WARNING!!!!!!!!!!! Sex is fun again! I mean, it was always fun. But I just wasn't "getting there." Always on the brink, but never quite got past that brink unless I was *cough* flying solo. It never occured to me that it could be a side effect of my medication. I thought it was maybe just part of getting older, or being in a long-term relationship. Or something. I'll confess I even may have thought about putting some of the blame on DH, for not being able to make it last *quite* long enough ... even though I could be on the brink for quite a while, and I just couldn't get past it. As soon as I dropped depo and got back on the pill, everything started working properly again. I'll put up with a lot to feel this way again, and to be able to share it with DH. > Just to worry you (or anyone else on Depo more), the last time I was due to > get Depo, I had forgotten my last shot and had to get an "emergency" one and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > advised me not to use any form of hormonal contraceptive until I could show > that my cycle had re-stablised and hormone levels had returned to normal. I have never heard about the osteoarthritis aspect. I always knew that it would take me quite a while to get pregnant after stopping it, but because the idea of having a child terrifies me, I just saw it as extra-good protection. I figured if I had that much hormone coursing through my body, I certainly had no risk of accidentally getting pregnant while on depo. I don't remember exactly when I started depo, but it had been at least 5 years. > The fact that I screamed as the ob/gyn attempted to fit the diaphram, and > neither of us like condoms (ever seen a female condom - funniest things!) is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > fall pregnant, but it took me 18 months to fall pregnant after my last depo > shot ran out. I used to hate condoms. I'm better about them, now; when I was a teenager, it seemed like a disaster if I missed a pill or took antibiotics and knew that I'd have to use a condom or go without. It really doesn't bother me anymore, although I'd rather not use them. In fact, I think that was a big reason I wanted to get on depo; antibiotics don't interfere with it the way they do with the pill. My big problem with relying on condoms is that I just don't trust them, and because I don't trust them, I'm nervous during sex, with predictably sub-optimal results. > Oh, the reason I started with the Depo in the first place is that I'm truly > lousy at remembering to take pills. I'm starting to consider that implant > thing, but am a but oogy about being able to feel the implant under my skin. Yeah, I think I used to be pretty good about taking my pill, but after several years without, I seem to have lost my touch. I leave them sitting at my sink, but sometimes DH will ask me "Did you take your pill?" and I realize I haven't. I'm glad that he asks; it makes me feel that he is more involved in the birth control effort. I know that you mentioned not liking diaphrams, but you might ask your doctor about this new ring thing. Two of my friends have used it and liked it. Apparently you do insert it (this is the part that makes me oogy; I'm still not clear about how exactly you place these types of devices) and leave it in place for three weeks, then remove. It acts like the pill, but because it's topical it has lower hormone levels than pills, and you only have to remember it twice a month. One friend said that her bf claimed he could feel it, but she says he claimed the same thing when it wasn't in, so she's pretty sure it's just a mental thing. Ah, here's the link: http://www.nuvaring.com/ My doctor never mentioned it, but one friend got it through her doctor, the other through Planned Parenthood. > Joel and I can't curently agree on whether we have another child or not. I > want another but Joel is quite adament that Cary is just as many as he'll [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > there was a *male* contraceptive, after all, its Joel that is the one that > wants to prevent any further pregnancies, not me. I know what you mean about wish there were a male contraceptive. It bothers me that I have to change my body chemistry to keep myself safe. On the other hand, I am in control, and no one can "oops" me this way. So for me perhaps this is best. I do remember trials of male birth control hormones; I wonder what ever happened with them. IIRC the main problem was tremendous acne. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >I know what you mean about wish there were a male contraceptive. It bothers >me that I have to change my body chemistry to keep myself safe. Au contraire. Have you ever considered natural methods? All you need is a thermometer, some basic bodily awareness, and the ability to count to three. I've used it for over ten years now, with no problems. I've only got pregnant when I wanted to. The book "Taking Charge of your Fertility" tells you all you need to know, and more. http://www.ovusoft.com/ >On the other >hand, I am in control, and no one can "oops" me this way. You are totally in control with natural methods too. And nobody can "oops" you. SignatureMogget >>I know what you mean about wish there were a male contraceptive. It bothers >>me that I have to change my body chemistry to keep myself safe. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://www.ovusoft.com/ I'm glad it works for you. I know myself too well to expect myself to be diligent enough with this method, and frankly, I don't expect my body to do its thing regularly enough to trust it. I'm looking at the failure rates here: http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1997/babytabl.html I do recognize that failure rates are subject to how well the person follows the instructions for the given method, but if I get too nervous to have sex when I know I only have a condom protecting me, I'd be a nervous wreck if I were relying on my own experiments. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca "Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> had some very interesting things to say about Re: OT, re: birth control: >> Au contraire. Have you ever considered natural methods? All you need is a >> thermometer, some basic bodily awareness, and the ability to count to three. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >diligent enough with this method, and frankly, I don't expect my body to do >its thing regularly enough to trust it. I have the same problem, since my cycle has never been what one might call regular [except when regularity was imposed by birth control pills. Those, however, had problem side effects for me]. Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > >I know what you mean about wish there were a male contraceptive. It bothers > >me that I have to change my body chemistry to keep myself safe. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You are totally in control with natural methods too. And nobody can > "oops" you. That is the best way if it works for you. However some women, like me, don't have a "normal" temperature of 98.6F - my "normal" temperature is 96.8f (I always joke that it's because I'm dyslexic). But my temperature fluctuates all the time unrelated to my cycle (when I had one - I had a hysterectomy in '93). And my cycle was *NEVER* regular, so had I tried that method I would have 10+ kids by now! Hugs, CatNipped > -- > Mogget > That is the best way if it works for you. However some women, like me, > don't have a "normal" temperature of 98.6F - my "normal" temperature is > 96.8f (I always joke that it's because I'm dyslexic). But my temperature > fluctuates all the time unrelated to my cycle (when I had one - I had a > hysterectomy in '93). And my cycle was *NEVER* regular, so had I tried that > method I would have 10+ kids by now! Normal temperature is in the 97.0F range. I can never convince medical personnel that a temperature of 100 F is serious for me. Pam S. who's fevers usually result in temps in the 95 F range >> I know what you mean about wish there were a male contraceptive. It >> bothers me that I have to change my body chemistry to keep myself >> safe. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > count to three. I've used it for over ten years now, with no > problems. I've only got pregnant when I wanted to. The book "Taking > Charge of your Fertility" tells you all you need to know, and more. > > http://www.ovusoft.com/ Ooooh, my aunt did this. She was very scientific about it but still had 3 kids this way :-( I don't think it's so foolproof for everybody. Personally, I could never relax and enjoy sex if I had this to worry about. -- Britta "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album > ObCat: I tried to feed Oscar some salmon tonight, but she was totally > uninterested. I guess it wasn't stinky enough./// Try Fresh cooked Coley. Things have got so bad in my house with the coley, that every time I go to the supermarkets Pandora EXPECTS that I pick her up some fresh coley. Forget Pavlovs dog with the bell. I have a cat conditioned to a microwave ping! Helen M >> ObCat: I tried to feed Oscar some salmon tonight, but she was totally >> uninterested. I guess it wasn't stinky enough./// [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Helen M Ah, the only reason Oscar got the opportunity to eat salmon is because we were cooking some for ourselves. She won't eat enough of anything to make buying fish for her worthwhile, and really, I don't want her getting too accustomed to the good life! I've managed to convince her that dry food is the yummiest treat in the world; I have to say, in that regard we have it made =) Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >>ObCat: I tried to feed Oscar some salmon tonight, but she was totally >>uninterested. I guess it wasn't stinky enough./// > > Try Fresh cooked Coley. Things have got so bad in my house with the > coley, that every time I go to the supermarkets Pandora EXPECTS that I > pick her up some fresh coley. Wow, the mention of coley just brought back a really nice memory of my grandmother - I she always asked for "Arfer-pownder-coley-fillet" for her cat at the supermarket fish counter. No coley here in Australia :( > > ObCat: I tried to feed Oscar some salmon tonight, but she was totally > > uninterested. I guess it wasn't stinky enough./// > > Try Fresh cooked Coley. Things have got so bad in my house with the > coley, that every time I go to the supermarkets Pandora EXPECTS that I > pick her up some fresh coley. Is Coley a fish? Does it have another name? Yowie >>>ObCat: I tried to feed Oscar some salmon tonight, but she was totally >>>uninterested. I guess it wasn't stinky enough./// [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Yowie Yes, it's a sea fish similar to cod. It's supposedly not as tasty as cod, but cheaper to buy (at least it was back when I still lived in the UK). Don't know if it has another name, and I've never seen it for sale on this side of Aus. My grandma's cat Moyla, who was the first cat I knew well, loved it. > Is Coley a fish? Does it have another name?// Yes, I believe it comes from the North Sea (but may be wrong). It's much cheaper than Cod (and the fish stocks are more stable) and is much stronger tasting/smellier. Pandora will literally mug me for it. Helen M >> Is Coley a fish? Does it have another name?// > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Helen M I think they live all around our shores, I caught one off Cornwall when I was a kid. SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera) A house is not a home, without a cat.
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