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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / February 2005Just speechless
I honestly don't know what to make of this. I realise that allergies and asthma are very real, some kids are sensitive to it, but does that mean they can never go into a place where there were cats, even if the cats are no longer there? It isn't like Ally Cat Allies didn't clean up after the surgeries, and they do a wonderful service to the community. My first thought is that people will go into an uproar at most anything these days. I am honestly speechless (contrary to the paragraph above) This was all over our news today. http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0205/208850.html  SignatureCheryl /yes, last post of the night. PUrrs to those I missed, but I'm too tired to read anymore. > I honestly don't know what to make of this. I realise that allergies > and asthma are very real, some kids are sensitive to it, but does [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This was all over our news today. > http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0205/208850.html I've been following this all day. Earlier their argument was that the kids could catch diseases from the cats being operated on in the cafeteria. When the health department came out and said that there was absolutely no risk of any of the kids catching anything then they trotted out the asthma and allergy complaint. I'm not unsympathetic to any one, especially kids, that have asthma or allergies but come on. Does this woman never take her kid to a public place? What guarantee does anyone have that any public place we enter has no cat hair? The school is probably reacting properly by having the school cleaned professionally as this is the only way to combat the hysteria this has caused but I think people are overreacting. The kid with asthma is probably more endangered by a classmate coming in with cat hair or dander on their clothing then what is left in the HVAC ducts. Margaret (not so speechless tonight it would seem :-) ) SignatureMargaret Fine mefine@mindspring.com > I honestly don't know what to make of this. I realise that allergies > and asthma are very real, some kids are sensitive to it, but does [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This was all over our news today. > http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0205/208850.html "She would go into immediate cardiac arrest"? I mean how does this girl walk down a neighborhood street? I'm sure there are more than a few cat hairs and probably a lot more allergens floating about. I think that is a bit of overkill there. Sometimes you just have to wonder. > > I honestly don't know what to make of this. I realise that allergies > > and asthma are very real, some kids are sensitive to it, but does [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hairs and probably a lot more allergens floating about. I think that is a > bit of overkill there. Sometimes you just have to wonder. Unfortunately, the WJLA page is so graphics-enriched that it crashes my memory-starved browser. While it's a local station, I didn't watch it. If I may infer from the posts in the thread, there seems considerable medical fantasy. Immediate cardiac arrest from an allergen? That would definitely be one for the medical journals. Even in the worst examples of anaphylactic shock, cardiac arrest is not the principal concern. Take a patient with an extreme allergy, say, to bee stings. The key factors in the clinical progression of anaphylaxis are principally respiratory. It's ironic that the classic first aid mnemonic is ABC -- airway, breathing, circulation (and D for definitive treatment or at least defibrillation). In the treatment of critical anaphylaxis, the total focus is on the airway. If you don't stabilize the airway, yes, I suppose there will be cardiac arrest -- but you'd have a patient with a condition incompatible with life. The priorities are epinephrine, physical control of the airway with intubation or surgical intervention and oxygen. Antihistamines can be helpful, but they won't make a difference in seconds or short minutes. Corticosteroids are appropriate in a severe case, but they will take hours to achieve a clinical effect. What did people think goes on in a spay/neuter? Brushing the cat into the air conditioning ducts? If anything, preparing the surgical field with washing and disinfectants will hold down dander. Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things to say about Re: Just speechless: >Immediate cardiac arrest from an allergen? That would definitely be one >for the medical journals. Even in the worst examples of anaphylactic [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >difference in seconds or short minutes. Corticosteroids are appropriate >in a severe case, but they will take hours to achieve a clinical effect. IIRC, when my mother suffered a severe allergic reaction to a flu shot (I was not present, but had the event described to me later), she reported her primary and most alarming symptom to be respiratory distress (of course, she's asthmatic and at least at the time was a smoker, so her respiratory system isn't in the best of shape to begin with). Fortunately, while I inherited her lousy eyesight, fullbacker build, and personality problems :-), I did miss the flu shot allergy and the asthma. Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > Immediate cardiac arrest from an allergen? That would definitely be one > for the medical journals. Even in the worst examples of anaphylactic > shock, cardiac arrest is not the principal concern. Take a patient with > an extreme allergy, say, to bee stings. Me - a single honey bee could kill me and I live in a state that's being invaded by killer bees!!! This bring up a question for you Howard. My EpiPen has an expiration date of March 2004 (thankfully I've never had to use it so I forget about it in my purse and this post made me take it out and look at it). Could I still use it if I had to before I can get it refilled? Hugs, CatNipped >> Immediate cardiac arrest from an allergen? That would definitely be one >> for the medical journals. Even in the worst examples of anaphylactic [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > CatNipped I can answer that. Get it refilled. Why take the chance. But if anything happens in the meantime of course use it. It might work. Better than nothing right? But swarming season isn't that far off and I figure I got reminded to look at the date for a reason. Jo > > Immediate cardiac arrest from an allergen? That would definitely be one > > for the medical journals. Even in the worst examples of anaphylactic [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and look at it). Could I still use it if I had to before I can get it > refilled? I honestly don't know. Liquids tend to be more unstable than solids, but it's case-by-case. Lots of drugs are really stable indefinitely, but the manufacturers put an arbitrary date on it because they don't want to go through formal stability testing. Some lose strength with age, and a very few build toxic chemicals. If it were a question of using it or using nothing, I'd use it. Still, it's not something I'd gamble on. IIRC, this came up on the Emergency Medical Services mailing list, since injection units in paramedic ambulances often aren't used by the expiration date. The usual practice is to swap with an emergency room that _is_ apt to use one before the date of expiration. With some EMS units, the manufacturers will give a trade-in credit -- you could try to check with the manufacturer, but I'd be surprised if they would do that for consumer sales. >I honestly don't know what to make of this. I realise that allergies > and asthma are very real, some kids are sensitive to it, but does [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This was all over our news today. > http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0205/208850.html Oh for crying out loud. Anyone that severely allergic would already be dead from all the cat hair on their friends coats and clothes. You have to figure at least a couple of those kids sitting on the rug for story time were playing with their cats at home before they came to school. Not to mention how many kids have cats sleeping on their pillows and go to school without washing their hair! Just how supposedly sterile was this school before the clinic? Jo > I honestly don't know what to make of this. I realise that allergies > and asthma are very real, some kids are sensitive to it, but does > that mean they can never go into a place where there were cats, even > if the cats are no longer there? The "immediate cardiac arrest" statement was a bit of...well, let's just say exaggeration. Sheesh! If the kid is truly that allergic she would keel over from sharing a classroom with kids who have cats at home. </me rolls eyes> -L. Sounds like the mother is an a$$h*le worrywart of the first order ;-) If a kid is that allergic - it should be in a sterile bubble - and/or carrying an epipen at all times. Does the mother make sure everyone who enters her home is vaccuumed & sterile before entering? What a twit - complete over reaction. Cheers, helen s There really are kids that are that allergic to cat dander. I went to Church with a couple of kids who could not be in a classroom where the teacher kept animals of any kind with fur. Their asthma would react terribly. I have one friend who had to get rid of her cat if she ever wanted her daughter-in-law to be able to visit her house because the DIL would get so sick with asmthma. Another good friend of mine has recently had to get an epipen to carry with him in case he is exposed in any way to a cat as the last time he walked into a place that had cats he nearly went into anaphylactic shock. Now he can't take any chances. These people do exist and for them it is more serious than watering eyes and a bit of a cough. 500 cats in a building is a lot of cats and a lot of dander and for a sensitive child (or adult) could be enough to set off a dangerous set of reactions. Put me anywhere near where a rabbit has been - rabbit can be gone - and I will get incredibly sick and require three days of breathing treatments before the swelling in my broncial tubes goes down. And we won't talk about the itching on my skin or the watery eyes. I simply don't go places where bunnies are - inlcluding pet stores that sell them or classrooms that hold them and I give wide berth to those holding them both while they are holding them and after they get through. Need the whole school have been upset, probably not, but I am willing to bet there are at least a couple of kids or adults in the school for whom this was really a serious problem, they just weren't the ones interviewed. Think how serious peanut allergies are. Cafeteria workers have been trained not to mix utensils on things that contain peanuts versus those that don't because just a smidge is enough to kill a kid even if they aren't eating the item that has nuts. So, I would say, don't discount the whole thing. They really should have thought it through a little more before they did this. Bridget - who knows what it is like to be severely allergic to a furry thing and lots of other stuff too. > I honestly don't know what to make of this. I realise that allergies > and asthma are very real, some kids are sensitive to it, but does [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This was all over our news today. > http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0205/208850.html > There really are kids that are that allergic to cat dander. I went to > Church with a couple of kids who could not be in a classroom where the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and a bit of a cough. 500 cats in a building is a lot of cats and a lot > of dander and for a sensitive child (or adult) could be enough to set > off a dangerous set of reactions. Put me anywhere near where a rabbit > has been - rabbit can be gone - and I will get incredibly sick and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Bridget - who knows what it is like to be severely allergic to a furry > thing and lots of other stuff too. I don't think anyone is doubting the allergy. It was the one woman's statement that got my "back up". Yes, her daughter probably does have a severe allergy on top of having asthma. The "instant cardiac arrest" is what bothers me about this. Do I think her daughter may have a severe reaction? Yes. Could it kill her? Yes. I just don't see the heart stopping instantly. Smokie Darling (Annie) > > I honestly don't know what to make of this. I realise that allergies > > and asthma are very real, some kids are sensitive to it, but does [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > This was all over our news today. > > http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0205/208850.html [...] > So, I would say, don't discount the whole thing. They really > should have thought it through a little more before they did > this. > > Bridget - who knows what it is like to be severely allergic to a > furry thing and lots of other stuff too. Aww Bridget! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to make this sound like I was minimalizing allergies, and parents desire to keep their kids away from known allergens. I had just seen the story on the news, after hearing complaints all day, in fact since Monday when the clean up was begun and it just started getting ridiculous as each story came out. Yes, news stories and interviews sometimes get broadcast out of context, but some of the parents were just being ridiculous. Picket the schools to try to influence other parents to not allow their children to attend, even after it had been cleaned to the best of the ability of all involved? What else did they want? Condemn the school? I'm sorry, got me going again! lol It just seems that where I live (and maybe its like this everywhere??) that no one can do anything right when it allows the parents to b*tch and fuss, like they want to sound important or something. The worse cases I've seen to date is when there's snow. The school system is d*mned if they do, d*mned if they don't when it comes to closing schools due to snow on the ground. Any amount. Stay away from those bunnies and stay healthy!! :) (hugs) SignatureCheryl > Aww Bridget! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to make this sound like I was > minimalizing allergies, and parents desire to keep their kids away [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > d*mned if they do, d*mned if they don't when it comes to closing > schools due to snow on the ground. Any amount. It's too bad that the school system and I'm guessing Alley Cat Allies are getting so much flak about this. I'm not trying to minimize allergies either, but seriously, what allergens would be left after clean-up? Like others said, I'm sure in any given school, there are teachers and children who live with pets and come in with pet hair on their clothes. Sheesh, if this girl who supposedly goes into cardiac arrest over a cat hair was in the same room with me, she would be dead. I've always got cat hair on my clothes. Parents make waaay too big a deal out of stuff. I think some just look for things to get all up in arms about. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG > It's too bad that the school system and I'm guessing Alley Cat Allies are > getting so much flak about this. I'm not trying to minimize allergies [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Parents make waaay too big a deal out of stuff. I think some just look for > things to get all up in arms about. If any of my students were that allergic to cats, I'd have killed them a long time ago. I'm not saying that someone can't be extremely allergic (you should see me with some perfumes), but the parent who was claiming automatic cardiac arrest was too extreme. I might be wrong, but I got the impression that lawsuit was a possible intention from at least one parent. For what it's worth, a month or so ago, the city of Raleigh, North Carolina got caught. There was a snow storm and some of the students were kept at school rather than send them out on buses that were caught in the storm. Some of the buses that were delivering kids were caught in traffic for as long as 12 hours. The schools did everything they could to ensure the children's safety, but there are still parents talking lawsuit because their children had to spend the night at the school, or were caught in traffic. Pam S. tired of those who want to sue the world >> It's too bad that the school system and I'm guessing Alley Cat Allies are >> getting so much flak about this. I'm not trying to minimize allergies [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Pam S. tired of those who want to sue the world Fer crying out loud. How can having to spend the night at school be sueable??? Karen <kchuplis@alltel.net> had some very interesting things to say about Re: Just speechless: >> For what it's worth, a month or so ago, the city of Raleigh, North >> Carolina got caught. There was a snow storm and some of the students [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Fer crying out loud. How can having to spend the night at school be >sueable??? I'm willing to bet said "parents" would have also sued if their widdle pweciouses had been endangered by being driven in such weather. Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > The schools did everything they >>> could to ensure the children's safety, but there are still [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > widdle pweciouses had been endangered by being driven in such > weather. BINGO!! Exactly what goes on here, too. Like I said. D*amned if they do, and d*mned if they don't [cancel | delay | release early ] <-- take your pick. SignatureCheryl Cheryl <jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com> had some very interesting things to say about Re: Just speechless: >> The schools did everything they >>>> could to ensure the children's safety, but there are still [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >do, and d*mned if they don't [cancel | delay | release early ] <-- >take your pick. LIS upthread, sounds like someone's playing the litigation lotto. (grrrr) Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > Pam S. tired of those who want to sue the world Exactly. And in my job I see it all the time. A prime example is the fact that we are no longer allowed to help someone who has locked their keys in their car. Used to be we could use a "slim jim" and get into the car for them. But because of too many lawsuits (for trying to help someone?) I now have to tell people to call a locksmith. If there is a child in the car and the motor is running, the fire dept. will come out and get into the vehicle. But we are no longer to help you out. And there are many many other examples I can mention. Bob >> Pam S. tired of those who want to sue the world > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bob Got to watch someone trying to get a car unlocked a few days ago. Fairly new car, so not easy to lock the keys in by accident. But there was a dog in the car that looked like he may have done the door locking. Jo Tanada <tanada@nospamearthlink.net> had some very interesting things to say about Re: Just speechless: >For what it's worth, a month or so ago, the city of Raleigh, North >Carolina got caught. There was a snow storm and some of the students [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >talking lawsuit because their children had to spend the night at the >school, or were caught in traffic. And the parents couldn't be bothered to come get the kids who were in such *awful* circumstances???? Sounds to me like someone's looking to hit the legal lotto. Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > And the parents couldn't be bothered to come get the kids who were in > such *awful* circumstances???? > > Sounds to me like someone's looking to hit the legal lotto. My thoughts exactly. I once subscribed to a yahoo group for Ft Bragg families. I quit after reading a bunch of the wives b*tch*ng about the Ft Bragg schools having to close early and not calling each parent to let them know. I thought it was SO stupid that these women couldn't figure out that if it was snowing, the kids were getting out. Pam S. The parents' concerns sound like extreme exaggeration to me, and you're right, there are some people who just like getting into an uproar, then the mob mentality takes over. But at the same time, I don't think the organization used good judgment in selecting a school cafeteria as their site. Surely there were other buildings available to them! Sherry > The parents' concerns sound like extreme exaggeration to me, and you're > right, there are some people who just like getting into an uproar, then > the mob mentality takes over. > But at the same time, I don't think the organization used good judgment > in selecting a school cafeteria as their site. Surely there were other > buildings available to them! It's been a bad week for the Washington DC schools and "hazardous materials". Schools tend to overreact. In the last couple of days, someone brought some mercury into a high school and spilled what were described as several marble-sized drops. Now, I've certainly worked with mercury, and, while extremely careful of its salts or vapor, I was surprised to find that there is now no acceptable short-term exposure, according to several respected industrial hygiene groups and the EPA. Still, the actual safety recommendations for small spills call for closing off the room, opening windows, and having a respirator and other protective equipment for the people actually cleaning up the spill. We are not talking about nerve gas here. The school system response was to close an entire high school for several days. To me, this is no-risk-of-lawsuit mentality. >> The parents' concerns sound like extreme exaggeration to me, and you're >> right, there are some people who just like getting into an uproar, then [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > The school system response was to close an entire high school for > several days. To me, this is no-risk-of-lawsuit mentality. Sheesh. We used to get the mercury out in the science lab and play with it when we weren;t busy making gunpowder or fireworks. Or stealing sodium to throw off the bridge. We only blew the windows out once with the fireworks. (Working in the lab was fun) > >> The parents' concerns sound like extreme exaggeration to me, and > >> you're [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > fireworks. > (Working in the lab was fun) There has to be a balance. Mercury isn't as harmless as we once thought, but, in elemental form, it isn't a fantastic hazard. The vapor is a significant hazard and doesn't belong in a high school. I would tend to say most, if not all, mercuric salts are too toxic for someone with the level of technique one would learn in high school chemistry alone. Explosives, I'm afraid, also don't belong in high school classes, unless possibly as a demonstration of safety with them. I could see, for example, a demonstration of making an explosive, and, with physics classes, putting it into an improvised bunker and measuring the force. I had a part-time job as a private high school lab instructor when I was an undergraduate chemistry major. Part of my "reputation" was made when I spotted students with just not enough knowledge modifying an experiment such that there was imminent danger of explosion. I knocked students to the floor, yelled at them to evacuate, and, staying below the level of the bench, poured water into the dry reactants. _I_ knew enough to be scared. >I had a part-time job as a private high school lab instructor when I was >an undergraduate chemistry major. Part of my "reputation" was made when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the level of the bench, poured water into the dry reactants. _I_ knew >enough to be scared. When I was in high school, my physics teacher decided, for no obvious reason, to show the class how to etch glass with hydrofluoric acid. He had gotten the acid from the chemistry lab next door; I don't know whether or not the chemistry teacher was consulted (probably not). He opened a window, set the pane of glass flat on the window sill, and drew a pattern on the glass with the acid. Unfortunately, the wind soon shifted direction, and we got an object lesson in why chemistry labs, as opposed to physics labs, have vent hoods. The physics classroom ended up having to be off-limits, with rags stuffed under the door to block the crack, for a couple of days, until the fumes finally dissipated. In college chemistry class, the lab assistant once lifted an entire block of sodium out of its protective oil bath, and set it down on the counter, in preparation for breaking off a piece. I headed out the door, and thirty feet or so down the hall, until he put the block back into the oil. As you no doubt know, but not every else will, sodium will spontaneously ignite if any water comes into contact with it, and will continue to burn even underwater, so the only safe way to store it is in a bath of heavy oil. A college friend of mine once mentioned that, at age twelve, he had made nitroglycerin with his home chemistry set, put a cork in the test tube, and ridden his bike out to the edge of town. He and a friend put the test tube under a stump, lay down a few yards away, and sniped at the test tube with pellet guns until they hit it. The resultant explosion blew the stump completely out of the ground, and my friend then realized what would have happened had he fallen off his bike while the test tube was in his pocket. He later estimated that he had been carrying the equivalent of two sticks of dynamite in his hip pocket. SignatureJohn F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria > >I had a part-time job as a private high school lab instructor when I was > >an undergraduate chemistry major. Part of my "reputation" was made when [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > He had gotten the acid from the chemistry lab next door; I don't know > whether or not the chemistry teacher was consulted (probably not). I remember even having hydrofluoric acid in my junior high school stockroom. This is one chemical that I don't think belongs at the secondary school level at all, and especially with someone, such as your physics teacher, that really doesn't know how to handle it. >He > opened a window, set the pane of glass flat on the window sill, and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the door to block the crack, for a couple of days, until the fumes > finally dissipated. In fact, you were very lucky that there apparently was reason to detect fumes. The thing that is so dangerous about HF is that it can produce devastating skin and lung burns THAT HAVE NO IMMEDIATE SYMPTOMS. By the time there is pain, not only can there be deep tissue damage, there can be life-threatening metabolic complications. On the few occasions I used it, I did so in a hood, with appropriate long gloves, face protection, and a mask, and had calcium gluconate (the short-term treatment) out, iced, and ready. > In college chemistry class, the lab assistant once lifted an entire > block of sodium out of its protective oil bath, and set it down on the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > been carrying the equivalent of two sticks of dynamite in his hip > pocket. There's a vicious circle -- sometimes the dangerous effects of chemicals are not made obvious to kids so they don't "try it", but, if they do, they don't know the precautions and dangers. I _never_ work with a new chemical without reviewing the Material Safety Data Sheet. You don't need anything fancy to stir things up in a chemistry lab. I used to teach high school chemistry. I always wondered why, in university, we used to have a professor, two instructional assistants, and a stores person to do all the preparation of the chemicals, but in high school, a single teacher was supposed to do everything with younger and less experienced students. Anyway, the introductory chem course at the time had a lab in which a whole series of stations were set up so students could go around and observe various basic properties and reactions. One of them was adding a small amount of drain cleaner to water to observe an exothermic (heat producing) reaction. A couple of teenage boys figured that if you get a dramatic reaction with a teaspoonful, you'd probably get something even more interesting if you put a *lot* of drain cleaner in the beaker of water! Of course, it spewed all over the bench, producing evil fumes. There's just something a little unpredictable about teenaged boys and chemicals, especially ones that *do* something. On second thought, what happens when you turn teenaged boys loose with something that might go *boom* is very predictable. During that time, my employers switched from mercury to alcohol thermometers for safety reasons, but when we still used mercury thermometers, standard procedure when they broke one was to keep the students out of the way until the teacher could carefully clean it up. I think it was supposed to be sprinkled with powdered sulfur first, but I may be mis-remembering it. I won't go into disposal because we were hundreds of miles from the nearest hazardous waste disposal service. But a bit of liquid mercury sprinkled around didn't require evacuating the school or anything. SignatureCheryl > You don't need anything fancy to stir things up in a chemistry lab. I > used [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > single teacher was supposed to do everything with younger and less > experienced students. Because the more experienced students can be more fiendish? I shall cite two examples. One fairly obnoxious professor, for some reason, had a personal chalk holder. Several graduate students, mostly physical organic types, decided that if adsorbed onto the surface of chalk, the crystal size and internal pressure of silver fulminate would keep it from detonating until pressed against a hard surface. A vaporized stick of chalk raises an impressive cloud. He still didn't get the message. Subsequently, a much more involved plot was arranged. The faculty mens' room was isolated at a party, and a team very carefully covered the water in the urinal with plastic wrap, sealing the edges. They then covered the wrap with kerosene, and, with proper care, lowered several chunks of potassium metal to sit on the plastic. At the party, beer was urged on said professor, with predictable results. He adjourned to the gents', followed shortly by an audible WHOOSH--CRACK as the slightly impure water he produced contacted the potassium -- which explodes on contact with water. We didn't expect it to ignite the kerosene, which it did. The door opened, and, in a cloud of smoke, a somewhat singed and tipsy professor came out, fumbling with his zipper. With a truly demented expression, he raised one hand and proclaimed "I am THOR, God of Lightning!" > Anyway, the introductory chem course at the time had a lab in which a > whole series of stations were set up so students could go around and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > There's just something a little unpredictable about teenaged boys and > chemicals, especially ones that *do* something. Harrumph. I was reasonably and predictably safe with pathogenic bacteria. Mind you, when I isolated what MIGHT have been cholera, I decided that was not something to investigate further. I left it at Vibrio species and put it in the autoclave. > On second thought, what happens when you turn teenaged boys loose with > something that might go *boom* is very predictable. Don't limit it to high school. Occasionally, I was a lab assistant in an organic chemistry section that was mostly for nursing students that HATED it. Somebody Up There seemed to look out for them. I remember one that decided to boil diethyl ether in a three-necked flask, OVER AN OPEN FLAME. By some miraculous accident of airflow, as best we could reconstruct, air rushed in through one of the necks, and the flame front was several inches above each. Why it didn't explode is beyond human comprehension. Not as lucky was the one that was doing basic elemental analysis, in which you melt the sample in sodium -- and poured molten sodium into the sink. > During that time, my employers switched from mercury to alcohol > thermometers for safety reasons, but when we still used mercury [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bit of liquid mercury sprinkled around didn't require evacuating the > school or anything. Cheryl Perkins <cperkins@mun.ca> had some very interesting things to say about Re: Just speechless: >On second thought, what happens when you turn teenaged boys loose with >something that might go *boom* is very predictable. Can't remember the ingredients, but I recall mention in a high school chem class of two common household substances that mix together to form a somewhat explosive paste. As you can guess, some kids in the class (not me) used that to play a prank on a substitute involving this substance and a keyhole. Fortunately, no damage and the sub in question was a good sport (it was a small town, the school-age population was well acquainted with the pool of available subs). :-) Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > Cheryl Perkins <cperkins@mun.ca> had some very interesting things to > say about Re: Just speechless: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > chem class of two common household substances that mix together to > form a somewhat explosive paste. I think it would be the better part of wisdom not to remind people of the specific household substances. One is less common than it once was. With a reasonably flexible definition of "household", someone with the appropriate knowledge can make some rather nasty things. Generally, the appropriate knowledge is gained in things like military special forces school. > As you can guess, some kids in the class (not me) used that to play a > prank on a substitute involving this substance and a keyhole. > Fortunately, no damage and the sub in question was a good sport (it > was a small town, the school-age population was well acquainted with > the pool of available subs). :-) I preferred more psychological approaches. At one institution, there were old-style locks with large brass doorknobs, which had to be turned as the key was turned. ANYONE could annoy people by spreading grease on the doorknob. Personally, I thought it was rather elegant to mix dry crystal violet (an aniline dye) with the grease. Crystal violet does not dissolve in petroleum jelly, but in water. What does one do if one cannot simply wipe off the grease? Why, washing! That's the ticket. Purple hands for about 2 weeks. Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things to say about Re: Just speechless: >> Can't remember the ingredients, but I recall mention in a high school >> chem class of two common household substances that mix together to >> form a somewhat explosive paste. >I think it would be the better part of wisdom not to remind people of >the specific household substances. One is less common than it once was. I just refreshed my memory on the ingredients (still don't know the ratio, though, but could probably find it via Web search fairly quickly (smile)) via a novel on my shelves (it's an older one, but probably sold fairly well in its time and might still be, given how popular the author was during his lifetime). :-) >With a reasonably flexible definition of "household", someone with the >appropriate knowledge can make some rather nasty things. Generally, the >appropriate knowledge is gained in things like military special forces >school. Or via Web. ;-) >> As you can guess, some kids in the class (not me) used that to play a >> prank on a substitute involving this substance and a keyhole. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >wipe off the grease? Why, washing! That's the ticket. >Purple hands for about 2 weeks. Nice. I like it. :-) Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things > to say about Re: Just speechless: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > probably sold fairly well in its time and might still be, given how > popular the author was during his lifetime). :-) An author that used it to straighten the supports of an special purpose building after a large shock wave? Actually, I was always dubious of that application -- you'd want a relatively low explosion propagation speed, characteristic of earth-moving explosives such as ammonium nitrate. > >With a reasonably flexible definition of "household", someone with the > >appropriate knowledge can make some rather nasty things. Generally, the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Nice. I like it. :-) > Now, I've certainly worked with mercury, and, while extremely careful of > its salts or vapor, I was surprised to find that there is now no [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > windows, and having a respirator and other protective equipment for the > people actually cleaning up the spill. OMG when I was in high school the teacher poured a couple of blobs of the stuff in a petrie dish and showed us some of the properties of the stuff. One of the girls picked it up with her long fingernails. None of us are dead or insane yet. Sigh. Pam S. Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things to say about Re: Just speechless: >It's been a bad week for the Washington DC schools and "hazardous >materials". Schools tend to overreact. In the last couple of days, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >The school system response was to close an entire high school for >several days. To me, this is no-risk-of-lawsuit mentality. Don't you just love the "sue the world into total safety by paralyzing anyone from doing anything" "mentality"? Signature"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL > > The parents' concerns sound like extreme exaggeration to me, and you're > > right, there are some people who just like getting into an uproar, then [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > materials". Schools tend to overreact. In the last couple of days, > someone brought some mercury into a high school and spilled what were > described as several marble-sized drops. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The school system response was to close an entire high school for > several days. To me, this is no-risk-of-lawsuit mentality. Oh Geez. I have cleaned up broken mercury thermometers with mercury spill kits at least 7 or 8 times over the last 20 years. <mind boggles> -L. > The parents' concerns sound like extreme exaggeration to me, and you're > right, there are some people who just like getting into an uproar, then [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sherry Hi Sherry, From what I understand the organization was told to use the site by the health department and wasn't really in a position to give up such a nice free space. Margaret SignatureMargaret Fine mefine@mindspring.com |
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