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HRFL Tiger UPDATE.

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HRFLTiger - 22 Feb 2005 15:41 GMT
Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
armpits he is too!

The vet doing the Ultrasound and X-rays was very nice - she was also
very direct, which I prefer. Apparently, Tigers heart murmer "HAS"
increased from 3/6 to 4/6 (which is why the vet got upset last night)
and there has been a slight thickening in the left ventrial wall
compared to the utrasound readings 18 months ago, but nothing so
significant that it merits medication at the moment as the whole thing
seems relatively stabalised.

Apparently, the literature suggests that for a stable HCM condition
like Tiger has, rather than CHM, medication has not been shown to make
a significant difference. The vet is competent, so I'll follow her
advice.

Turns out that the panting is probably asthma!! Apparently after the
ultrasound, they put him onto the equivalent of a kitty treadmill to
see what he was like after exercise, and he started panting. Whilst
this *is* indicative of heart problems, they listened to his chest and
apparently he has "typical asthmatic sounds", whatever the hell they
are. Needless to say, after the last 24 hours, I don't really care!

It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))

Thank you all for the purrs and prayers - you really have no idea the
difference it made to me having the support.

Helen M
CatNipped - 22 Feb 2005 15:53 GMT
Purrs continuing for Tiger!

Hugs,

CatNipped

> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Helen M
pistor - 22 Feb 2005 16:04 GMT
MOST EXCELLENT NEWS!!! I'm so happy for HRFL Tiger and for you. Can we
get jpegs of the saven armpits? ;-)

Victor, posting from work
wafflycat - 22 Feb 2005 16:08 GMT
> It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))
>
> Thank you all for the purrs and prayers - you really have no idea the
> difference it made to me having the support.
>
> Helen M

Excellent news!

Cheers, helen s
p.s. - give himself a good earscritch from me!
Monique Y. Mudama - 22 Feb 2005 16:13 GMT
> Turns out that the panting is probably asthma!! Apparently after the
> ultrasound, they put him onto the equivalent of a kitty treadmill to see
> what he was like after exercise, and he started panting. Whilst this *is*
> indicative of heart problems, they listened to his chest and apparently he
> has "typical asthmatic sounds", whatever the hell they are. Needless to say,
> after the last 24 hours, I don't really care!

I'm trying to imagine a device that would get a cat to run consistently for
long enough to get an accurate read.  I can't do it.

> It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))

Very good news!

Signature

monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

HRFLTiger - 22 Feb 2005 16:18 GMT
"I'm trying to imagine a device that would get a cat to run
consistently for
long enough to get an accurate read.  I can't do it."

As I understand it, it involved a vet tech, a laser pointer and plenty
of space in the prep area! ;o)

Helen M
Howard Berkowitz - 22 Feb 2005 17:10 GMT
> > Turns out that the panting is probably asthma!! Apparently after the
> > ultrasound, they put him onto the equivalent of a kitty treadmill to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> for
> long enough to get an accurate read.  I can't do it.

It was strange enough to see a blood pressure taken with a cuff around
Clifford's tail. Even then, the cardiologist only measured the systolic
pressure. I'm trying to remember if he needed a Doppler sensor rather
than a stethoscope even for that.
Gabey8 - 22 Feb 2005 16:15 GMT
I'm glad to hear that the results were reassuring. :o) Let HRFL Tiger know
that he's got company on this board with other asthmatic kitties.

BTW, the one asthmatic cat that I knew was diagnosed during a summer about
20 years ago when the pollen count was HORRENDOUSLY high. I know that
spring is on the way (and it can't get here soon enough to suit me!), so
maybe you can try and find out what the air quality is in your area. Maybe
there's pollen or mold or ??? in the air that's triggering the asthma
symptoms to crop up. Forewarned is forearmed.

Captain and Stanley send HRFL some nice loud PURRRRS, and I send him some
skritchies.

Donna, Captain, and Stanley
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 22 Feb 2005 16:29 GMT
> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Helen M

I'm very happy that Tiger is going to be alright.  Being the big wuss
that I am, when "owners" are not doing well, I imagine all sorts of
awful things (and that's for *other people's* owners, imagine what I'm
like with my own!).

If I may ask, what does HRFL mean?  Answer only if you want to.

Smokie Darling (Annie)
HRFLTiger - 22 Feb 2005 16:49 GMT
If I may ask, what does HRFL mean?

Of course you can ask Annie. :o)

It started out as a joke on RPCA waaay back in about 1999. I forget who
coined it.

HRFL stands for "His Royal Feline Lordship".

Tiger is utterly convinced that if he stands still long enough the
entire world will revolve around him. It frequently does!

Helen M
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 22 Feb 2005 16:53 GMT
> If I may ask, what does HRFL mean?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Helen M

Ahhh, I had almost figured it out.  Just couldn't come up with the "L".
Aren't all "mwowing" furbabies reincarnated aristocracy?  Mine
certainly think they are!

Smokie Darling (Annie)
Gabey8 - 22 Feb 2005 17:23 GMT
[[Ahhh, I had almost figured it out.  Just couldn't come up with the "L".
Aren't all "mwowing" furbabies reincarnated aristocracy?  Mine
certainly think they are!]]

Either that, or aristocracy are reincarnated from cats... and the cats
KNOW it! :o)

Donna and the royal fuzzballs, Captain and Stanley
Phil - 22 Feb 2005 16:34 GMT
> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!

I can imagine.

> The vet doing the Ultrasound and X-rays was very nice - she was also
> very direct, which I prefer. Apparently, Tigers heart murmer "HAS"
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))

This is good news, glad to hear that.

> Thank you all for the purrs and prayers - you really have no idea the
> difference it made to me having the support.
>
> Helen M

Phil
Jeanette - 22 Feb 2005 16:38 GMT
> It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))
>
> Thank you all for the purrs and prayers - you really have no idea the
> difference it made to me having the support.
>
> Helen M

Yeah! Three cheers for HRFH :D

Love

Jeanette
zuzu22@webtv.net - 22 Feb 2005 16:50 GMT
I can't imagine not treating your cat with meds at this point. His
condition is obviously *not* stable as is evidenced by the increased
murmur and increased thickening not to mention the fact that you brought
him in in the first place because he was obviously feeling bad. Having
had a cat with a heart condition myself, I can't imagine, considering
the above, that a vet would recommend not treating. Please get a second
opinion, preferably from a cardiologist. Medication can help to
stabilize a patient. What does this vet want to do? Wait until more
damage is done? Also, the crackling sound that often goes with feline
asthma is also common with heart condtions and is a sign of edema. Your
cat's panting is more likely to mean that dema is happening and he needs
treatment for the heart condition, not a wait and see approach. My cat
Omar also presented with this as well. Assuming asthma without doing an
xray to look for the obvious signs to me, and especially knowing there
is a heart condition, is *extremely* worrisome, and *coughing* is the
most common sign of asthma, not panting. I have a cat with asthma so
I've BTDT too.

Again, PLEASE get a second opinion! Just because a vet "seems"
competent doesn't make it so and the recommendation to not do meds is
very alarming to me.
http://www.newmanveterinary.com/felhcm.html

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


HRFLTiger - 22 Feb 2005 23:58 GMT
Thanks for this Megan - having read your post, I'll be back at the vet
on Thursday having him refered to Bristol University fekine center next
week.

Helen
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Feb 2005 02:52 GMT
Helen wrote:

>Thanks for this Megan - having read your
>post, I'll be back at the vet on Thursday
>having him refered to Bristol University
>fekine center next week.

Thank heavens! I am so happy that you are doing this. Reading what the
other vet said in your original message was very upsetting, especially
the part about the treadmill and the vet assuming it was asthma when
that kind of activity is more likely cause to a cat with a heart
condition to pant than one with asthma. Omar started panting just during
the simple act of me trimming his claws and him struggling a bit. This
scared me to death and I took him to the vet right away which resulted
in him being diagnosed with the heart condition. Please let me know what
happens (my email addy is valid) and thanks for going to a specialist.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Julie Cook - 23 Feb 2005 05:14 GMT
> Thanks for this Megan - having read your post, I'll be back at the vet
> on Thursday having him refered to Bristol University fekine center next
> week.
>
> Helen

Helen,

Lots of loud and rumbly purrs coming for HRFL Tiger and yourself that a
diagnosis and treatment can be found quickly.  I was going to share some
information with you on feline inhaled medicines for feline asthma but
after reading Megan's reply to you, I tend to agree with her. I'm glad
that you are pursuing this with Bristol University Feline Center. When
Sam was diagnosed with asthma the one symptom that seemed to really
confirm the diagnosis was his cough that looked similar to a cat trying
to cough up a hairball - extended neck, lowered head and hacking cough
that didn't produce hairball.  Of course by the time we arrived at the
clinic Sam was breathing very fast and with open mouth and was in severe
respiratory distress, but he never panted. I think the panting is more
indicative of heart than asthma. But then there are people here, Marina
and Ginger-lyn to name two, with a lot more experience with asthmatic
cats and symptoms than I have.

Whatever the outcome, you have our purrs, meatloaf meditations and
gentle headbutts.

Julie, Hobbes, Selena, Lacey, Sam and Barnabus
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Feb 2005 07:26 GMT
>When Sam was diagnosed with asthma
>the one symptom that seemed to really
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>and with open mouth and was in severe
>respiratory distress, but he never panted.

The symptoms Monty had were identical to yours and were what caused me
to get him checked by the vet. He has never panted, even during rough
play and I was fortunate that I caught it early on and he never went
into respiratory distress which, as you know, is frightening. The first
thing they did was an xray which showed "doughnuts" in the lung which
are a typical sign of asthma.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Howard Berkowitz - 22 Feb 2005 17:09 GMT
> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> a significant difference. The vet is competent, so I'll follow her
> advice.

This might be a local difference -- I don't recognize the acronyms. I'd
think of CHF as congestive heart failure, and we usually spell out the
different kinds of heart enlargement and cardiomyopathy.  Are you
referring to the valvular disease?

> Turns out that the panting is probably asthma!! Apparently after the
> ultrasound, they put him onto the equivalent of a kitty treadmill to
> see what he was like after exercise, and he started panting. Whilst
> this *is* indicative of heart problems, they listened to his chest and
> apparently he has "typical asthmatic sounds", whatever the hell they
> are. Needless to say, after the last 24 hours, I don't really care!

I'm very glad they found that out, if medication becomes appropriate in
the future. In human congestive heart failure, beta blockers
(technically beta-adrenergic receptor antagonists) are a relatively new
addition to the basic regimen of diuretics and often digitalis. Beta
blockers, however, are contraindicated in asthma.

> It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))
>
> Thank you all for the purrs and prayers - you really have no idea the
> difference it made to me having the support.

Purrs again. If it helps any, while I don't have heart valve problems, I
did have heart enlargement from other conditions. With aggressive
treatment, it's completely reversed. Hopefully that might happen for
Tiger.

> Helen M
HRFLTiger - 23 Feb 2005 16:15 GMT
Hi Howard,

When I was refering to CHF, I was indeed refering to Congestive heart
faliure. He has Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and Tricuspid valve
displaysia.

HTH :o)

Helen M
jmcquown - 22 Feb 2005 17:12 GMT
> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Helen M

This is excellent news!  I'm so happy to hear it!  Continued purrs for HRFL
Tiger and all the other kitties and peoples who need purrs.

Jill
SuzQ - 22 Feb 2005 17:31 GMT
I'm glad Tiger's problem is treatable. Healthy long-life purrs for Tiger.

Suz
Marina - 22 Feb 2005 18:02 GMT
> It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))

So glad to hear your little darling is OK. Did they put him on asthma
meds? Nikki gets Prednisone, and it seems to keep her coughing down
pretty well.

Signature

Marina, Frank and Nikki
marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Howard Berkowitz - 22 Feb 2005 19:13 GMT
> > It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))
>
> So glad to hear your little darling is OK. Did they put him on asthma
> meds? Nikki gets Prednisone, and it seems to keep her coughing down
> pretty well.

Prednisone tends to cause less side effects in cats than in humans, but
it's still often associated with fluid retention. If it were to be given
for the asthma in a furred/furless person with heart failure, I don't
think there's any question that a diuretic, probably furosemide (Lasix)
should be given with it.

Megan does raise some valid concerns. I simply am not familiar with the
veterinary literature involved. In humans, there would be no question of
starting medications early, probably a diuretic.
Katz - 22 Feb 2005 18:45 GMT
Oh, good boy, Tiger. Continuing to send the purrs.

Katz & cats
Debra Berry - 22 Feb 2005 19:32 GMT
Good news that it is treatable!  Purrs continue.

Debbie Berry
dberry@mitre.org

> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Helen M
Charleen Welton - 22 Feb 2005 19:58 GMT
Good, good news.  More purrs equal more good news:  purr, purr, purr!

Charleeen,
Mr. Pumpkin,
Aggie Marble,
Victor Velcro
Adrian - 22 Feb 2005 20:00 GMT
<snip>
> It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))
>
> Thank you all for the purrs and prayers - you really have no idea the
> difference it made to me having the support.
>
> Helen M

I'm so glad to hear it was nothing more serious.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera)
A house is not a home, without a cat.

Ginger-lyn Summer - 22 Feb 2005 20:32 GMT
>Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
>armpits he is too!
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
>Helen M

So glad to hear this, Helen!  Answering late, because I had to go to
the vet yesterday to take in Sabra, who had been having problems with
his asthma over the weekend.

If I can help in any way answering any questions about the asthma,
feel free to ask, Helen.

Glad HRFL Tiger is okay :-)

Ginger-lyn
Julie Cook - 23 Feb 2005 05:43 GMT
> So glad to hear this, Helen!  Answering late, because I had to go to
> the vet yesterday to take in Sabra, who had been having problems with
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Ginger-lyn

Lots of purrs on the way for Sabra to breathe easier very soon.  Sam
started coughing this afternoon for the first time since the end of
January.  I had taken it on myself to try to reduce the dosage of
Flovent (steroids) that he's taking and that combined with nasty
thunderstorms last night apparently was just too much for his fragile
lungs.  I gave him a couple of puffs of Albuterol and he seems to be
doing better tonight. I've gone back to two puffs of the Flovent twice
daily at least until he sees the vet at the end of March.

Purrs and gentle headbutts for Sabra as well as you.

Julie, Hobbes, Selena, Lacey, Sam and Barnabus
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Feb 2005 07:31 GMT
>I had taken it on myself to try to reduce
>the dosage of Flovent

Can you give me an idea of the approximate cost of the asthma meds and
how long they last? Although he's been doing ok with oral steroids I
would rather do inhaled meds. I'm getting an inhaler for Monty and need
to know what to expect cost wise for the meds so I can budget for it.
Thanks.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Julie Cook - 23 Feb 2005 17:20 GMT
>>I had taken it on myself to try to reduce
>>the dosage of Flovent
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Megan

In the Atlanta area I paid around $50.00 for the Albuterol and it has
200 doses per canister.  I give two puffs as needed in emergency. I've
only used about 10 puffs of this.  The Flovent in the Atlanta area is
$150.00 for 120 doses (for us this is a one month supply, I give 2 puffs
twice daily).  I found it from a Canadian supplier for $90.00/month
which includes postage and handling.  In a stable cat people are giving
1 puff twice daily so that the canister would last two months.  Also, I
give a high dose at the moment because Sam's so recently had a crisis
and we're still trying to get him stable.  I give 220 mcg of Flovent (2
puffs/twice daily).  I would think 110 mcg 1 puff/twice daily wouldn't
cost as much. I suppose it depends on how stable your cat is.  A good
resource for all of this is www.fritzthebrave.com.  I use the Aerocat
chamber and haven't had any trouble with it at all. Sam is a pretty laid
back cat, however. I'm not sure I could do this with Selena or Lacey.

Good luck. If I can help in any way (I can't imagine helping you, you
are so very knowledgable in cat health) but I'll be more than happy to
share experiences.

Julie
Marina - 24 Feb 2005 04:22 GMT
> In the Atlanta area I paid around $50.00 for the Albuterol and it has
> 200 doses per canister.  I give two puffs as needed in emergency. I've
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> chamber and haven't had any trouble with it at all. Sam is a pretty laid
> back cat, however. I'm not sure I could do this with Selena or Lacey.

You're really selling me on the idea of inhaled meds, Julie, but I
wonder if I'd be able to administer them to Nikki. When we visited the
vet last week, she did talk of some toher medication, but that was oral
as well, not inhaled. I wonder if I could find a vet here who would
prescribe the inhaled stuff for a cat. I'll have to look around. Nikki
seems to be doing fine on the Prednisone, but I am worried about the
complications of long-term use. AAMF, we are having a bout of very cold
weather, and Nikki was being difficult the other night so I only got a
fraction of her meds into her, but she hasn't wheezed at all. Maybe in
cold weather, she doesn't need so much of it.

Signature

Marina, Frank and Nikki
marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Julie Cook - 24 Feb 2005 17:35 GMT
> You're really selling me on the idea of inhaled meds, Julie, but I
> wonder if I'd be able to administer them to Nikki.

The main thing is to get her used to the mask that covers her nose and
mouth. I bought a infant chamber and mask initially until I could order
the Aerokat mask, which is specifically designed for cats. The Aerokat
web site is http://www.aerokat.com/overview.htm and has some good
information about giving inhaled meds. If you'd like I could send you
the infant chamber/mask and you could see if Nikki will let you use it
on her.  It only takes about 15 seconds to administer two puffs of the
drug so it doesn't have to stay there long.  Some of the web site
suggest rewarding with treats but Sam likes to be loved on so I get him
in my lap or I kind of crouch over him so that he can't back away from
me and administer the inhalant and then spend a minute or two just
scritching his ears and chin. He adores this special time between the
two of us.

When we visited the
> vet last week, she did talk of some toher medication, but that was oral
> as well, not inhaled. I wonder if I could find a vet here who would
> prescribe the inhaled stuff for a cat.

There is a copy of the accepted protocol for inhaled meds for felines
with asthma at www.fritzthebrave.com written by Dr. Philip Padrid. You
could take this to your vet along with some of the other information
found at this site that supports inhaled meds and even discusses other
treatment options.  I think primarily vets are uninformed about the
inhaled meds and reluctant to prescribe them because they're unsure
about their effectiveness.  Overall I think any vet wants to do what is
best of their patient and there's no doubt that the inhaled steroids are
better in this application than the systemic steroids.  The cost could
keep vets from recommending this option although I would think that
should be a personal decision, not one the vet would make.

I'll have to look around. Nikki
> seems to be doing fine on the Prednisone, but I am worried about the
> complications of long-term use. AAMF, we are having a bout of very cold
> weather, and Nikki was being difficult the other night so I only got a
> fraction of her meds into her, but she hasn't wheezed at all. Maybe in
> cold weather, she doesn't need so much of it.

We're having a lot of rain right now and for the first time since the
end of January Sam is having coughing attacks.  I like being able to
give him a couple of puffs of the Albuterol and seeing how quickly it
seems to work.  That's another advantage of the inhaled meds over the
others is having a quick acting medication when they actually have an
attack.

Good luck Marina and if I can be of any help let me know. Send me your
address (or do I have it from the holiday card list?) and I'll be happy
to send you the infant mask/chamber to see if Nikki will accept it.

Julie
Marina - 25 Feb 2005 11:14 GMT
> Good luck Marina and if I can be of any help let me know. Send me your
> address (or do I have it from the holiday card list?) and I'll be happy
> to send you the infant mask/chamber to see if Nikki will accept it.

If you have the holiday card list, you have my address. If you're
absolutely sure you don't need the mask, and it isn't too expensive to
send, I'd love to try it out. I suspect very much that Nikki won't
accept it. She is *not* a laidback kind of cat. ;o)

Signature

Marina, Frank and Nikki
marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Howard Berkowitz - 23 Feb 2005 19:31 GMT
> > So glad to hear this, Helen!  Answering late, because I had to go to
> > the vet yesterday to take in Sabra, who had been having problems with
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Julie, Hobbes, Selena, Lacey, Sam and Barnabus

Remember that corticosteroids (at least in people) take at least 8 hours
to have any real effect, and may take several days. For asthma, they are
either preventive drugs, or part of a long intensive treatment.  
Albuterol, however, can help in minutes, and should be your first choice
if there are any visible symptoms.
Julie Cook - 23 Feb 2005 20:15 GMT
>>Lots of purrs on the way for Sabra to breathe easier very soon.  Sam
>>started coughing this afternoon for the first time since the end of
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Albuterol, however, can help in minutes, and should be your first choice
> if there are any visible symptoms.

I had tried to drop his Flovent from 440 mcg bid to 220 mcg bid. It
didn't work. As soon as I heard him coughing he received two puffs of
Albuterol which helped.  As I understand it, most people who are giving
prednisone orally slowly taper off the prednisone as they add the
Flovent so that after 2 weeks the cat is on inhaled steroids only. In
Sam's case, he'd had enough injected steroids that they didn't want to
add systemic steriods and just started him on the Flovent.  I doubt
he'll ever be able to come off the Flovent entirely but I'm hoping one
day he won't need as much. I wonder what this stuff tastes/feels/smells
like to him?

Julie
Howard Berkowitz - 23 Feb 2005 20:40 GMT
> >>Lots of purrs on the way for Sabra to breathe easier very soon.  Sam
> >>started coughing this afternoon for the first time since the end of
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> day he won't need as much. I wonder what this stuff tastes/feels/smells
> like to him?

In humans, a maximum dose of inhaled corticosteroids is roughly equal to
5mg oral prednisone per day, with much lesser side effects since the
inhaled corticosteroid is gnerally not absorbed in the body. It may or
may not be possible to replace oral corticosteroids with inhaled.

No, it is unlikely an asthmatic will ever be able to come off
anti-inflammatory drugs such as corticosteroids or cromolyns. While
there may be some reduction after an acute episode, you generally find a
maintenance dose and keep it there indefinitely.

What criteria are you using to decide when to reduce the Flovent dosage?
Is this a cost consideration, or based on symptoms?
Julie Cook - 23 Feb 2005 21:17 GMT
> In humans, a maximum dose of inhaled corticosteroids is roughly equal to
> 5mg oral prednisone per day, with much lesser side effects since the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> What criteria are you using to decide when to reduce the Flovent dosage?
> Is this a cost consideration, or based on symptoms?

Purely emotional. He looks so pitiful when its time for his medication
that I promised him I'd do what I could to make it easier for him. That
and he hadn't had a coughing spell since the end of January.  What I
need to keep reminding myself is that its only been about 5 weeks since
he crashed. That is not such a very long time ago. Certainly not enough
time to have recovered completely from a collapsed lung lobe, fluid
buildup around his lungs, etc. I'm planning to board him in March when
we go out of town for 4 days to make sure he gets his meds. I'm going to
ask the vet to do another lung x-ray at that time to see where we are.
Until then ... he gets the prescribed 2 puffs bid - no matter what kind
of sad eyes he gives me.

Julie
Howard Berkowitz - 23 Feb 2005 23:26 GMT
> > In humans, a maximum dose of inhaled corticosteroids is roughly equal
> > to
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Until then ... he gets the prescribed 2 puffs bid - no matter what kind
> of sad eyes he gives me.

I know it's hard to medicate our furkids -- especially when they are
brave about it. Chatterley (RB) would ask me if I was feeling lucky when
it was time to squirt ointment into her eyes. Mr. Clark, however, is far
more brave, both for eye and ear ointment. He rather quickly recognized
the tube, and would watch me pick it up, not move when I positioned the
nozzle in his ear, and only give an obviously automatic flinch when I
squirted.

He's a very tolerant cat, which is good since he's a very large and
powerful cat. With him, and with Clifford (RB), there's a great deal of
bonding and trust. I don't know if it's just that they felt that I
wasn't going to hurt them, or was actually trying to help, but I
appreciate their attitudes.

I will admit that Chatterley had reason to be suspicious of all
treatments after my ex-wife, for reasons she cannot explain to this day,
chased Chatterley with a flea spray, giving a demented laugh all the way
up the stairs and under the bed.

To return to asthma, the great breakthrough leading to the enormous
strides made in treating it in all species is realizing that it is a
disease of inflammation in which the inflammation leads to constricted
breathing passages, as opposed to a disease that is basically about
breathing difficulty. Control the inflammation, and, ideally, there are
never breathing problems.

Drugs such as corticosteroids, cromolyns, and leukotriene inhibitors are
anti-inflammatory, and have no immediate effect on breathing.  There are
some long-lasting drugs to help breathing (e.g.,  salmeterol (Serevent))
that have no place in an acute attack, but still are not
anti-inflammatory.  Things that do help in acute attacks are
short-acting beta-agonists like albuterol, sometimes anticholinergics
like ipratropium (Atrovent), epinephrine in emergencies, and possibly
caffeine-related drugs like aminophylline and theophylline. The last
two, I suspect, are toxic in cats.

The reality is that unless you can remove the cause of the inflammation,
which could be an allergy, changes in air temperature, exercise, or just
things we don't understand, you can't stop or reduce the
anti-inflammatory drugs. The good news is that the anti-inflammatories
prevent the need for the quick-acting bronchodilators.  Bronchodilators
are probably a little more scary, as they can cause rapid heartbeat, dry
mouth, and other immediate symptoms.
Cheryl - 24 Feb 2005 00:47 GMT
> The reality is that unless you can remove the cause of the
> inflammation, which could be an allergy, changes in air
> temperature, exercise, or just things we don't understand, you
> can't stop or reduce the anti-inflammatory drugs.

Not WRT asthma, but isn't it possible for an allergy to be
"outgrown"? (An allergy that causes skin outbreaks rather than
respiratory distress)

Signature

Cheryl
/hoping!

Howard Berkowitz - 24 Feb 2005 01:47 GMT
> > The reality is that unless you can remove the cause of the
> > inflammation, which could be an allergy, changes in air
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "outgrown"? (An allergy that causes skin outbreaks rather than
> respiratory distress)

Sometimes. In humans, that's most likely to be associated with puberty
-- I don't have any idea what spaying and neutering will do.

As something of an aside, there are childhood "reactions" that are not
true allergies.  Certainly until I was in my late teens, if I tried to
swallow cooked egg white, I'd always gag and frequently vomit. As an
adult, I don't particularly like egg white, but it doesn't have this
effect. When I discussed it with an allergist, he said things like this
were often observed but not understood. They definitely were not
allergies.

Some of it may be the "acquired taste" mechanism, which also is poorly
understood. Coffee is something, for example, that few children like,
along with strong-tasting food in general.

As a child, I don't think I ever tried raw shellfish. Oysters and such
gag many adults. I've just never understood raw oysters, as I detect no
real flavor, but I love sea urchin (uni) sushi.
Karen - 24 Feb 2005 01:54 GMT
>>> The reality is that unless you can remove the cause of the
>>> inflammation, which could be an allergy, changes in air
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> gag many adults. I've just never understood raw oysters, as I detect no
> real flavor, but I love sea urchin (uni) sushi.

That is broccoli for me. It would make me throw up as a child, but I like it
as an adult. I think it had to do with texture.
Cheryl - 24 Feb 2005 02:02 GMT
> Sometimes. In humans, that's most likely to be associated with
> puberty -- I don't have any idea what spaying and neutering will
> do.

I keep hoping that it will diminish with time. He's now 3, and has
had the skin problems since I got him at the age of 6 months
(though I really think he was older than that then - 2 years ago
Mar 16, hence his name Shamrock. :))  It honestly has gotten
better. He used to break out on his back, the sides of his torso,
the backs of his rear legs and the base of his tail. Now it's
mostly just his back and the base of his tail, but sometimes still
maybe one leg.

> As something of an aside, there are childhood "reactions" that
> are not true allergies.  Certainly until I was in my late teens,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> oysters, as I detect no real flavor, but I love sea urchin (uni)
> sushi.

For me as a kid it was milk. I can remember having to sit at the
table until it was gone, and it would get so warm and stinky. I'd
"down" it just to get away from the table, then get sick. I still
can't drink a plain glass of milk.

Signature

Cheryl

Howard Berkowitz - 25 Feb 2005 23:08 GMT
> For me as a kid it was milk. I can remember having to sit at the
> table until it was gone, and it would get so warm and stinky. I'd
> "down" it just to get away from the table, then get sick. I still
> can't drink a plain glass of milk.

As a teenager and as an adult, I greatly enjoy milk.  Apparently, I went
through a phase at age 7 or 8 when I didn't.

That period coincided with a visit to family who had a hotel and
restaurant in Havana.  As I keep having to remind the security clearance
people, Castro was off in the mountains at the time.

Anyway, La Rue 19 was a very nice restaurant, with excellent food and
service. When the waiters realized that we were the family of the
owners, we got especially good treatment.

One of my mother's rules was that I had to finish my milk before I could
have dessert.  (cue Twilight Zone music) I kept thinking I'd finished my
milk, look back, and it had refilled.

"Drink your milk!"

"I _did_!"

WHOMP! "Stop lying!"  

But whatever I did, the enchanted milk glass wouldn't empty. I sloshed
whenever I walked, and the slaps I got made me sound like a milkshake.

Eventually, I hunched over the milk glass, protecting it with both hands
and my face, ignoring the food.  With the gentlest of touches, a waiter,
trained never to let a guest's glance go empty, reached down and tried
to pry my fingers loose.

It was at least a moral victory when my mother realized what had
happened. I suspect, however, I had drunk a quantity that would be
respectable for a hungry calf.
badwilson - 26 Feb 2005 01:40 GMT
> For me as a kid it was milk. I can remember having to sit at the
> table until it was gone, and it would get so warm and stinky. I'd
> "down" it just to get away from the table, then get sick. I still
> can't drink a plain glass of milk.

I used to hate milk with a passion when I was a kid too.  Luckily my
mom also hated it so I wasn't forced to drink it.  I think in the
first 30 years of my life I might have consumed less than 2 liters of
milk straight.
For some reason I have lately started to love it!  It has to be
straight out of the carton from the fridge though.  Unfortunately it
does a number on my tummy and I can't have too much of it.  Probably
because my system isn't used to it from not having it for so long.
--
Britta
Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that's
covered in fur!
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
glsummer@neptunelink.com - 24 Feb 2005 20:19 GMT
>Lots of purrs on the way for Sabra to breathe easier very soon.  Sam
>started coughing this afternoon for the first time since the end of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Julie, Hobbes, Selena, Lacey, Sam and Barnabus

Thank you, Julie.

Hope Sam starts doing better soon, too.

Ginger-lyn

Home Pages:
 http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
 http://www.angelfire.com/folk/glsummer (homepage & cats)
 http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~summer/index.htm (genealogy)
 http://www.i-love-cats.com/meow/glsummer/ (The Violence Against
                        Animals in Movies Website)
Adrian - 23 Feb 2005 17:10 GMT
> So glad to hear this, Helen!  Answering late, because I had to go to
> the vet yesterday to take in Sabra, who had been having problems with
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Ginger-lyn

Purrs for Sabra.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera)
A house is not a home, without a cat.

Christine Burel - 22 Feb 2005 23:13 GMT
So glad to hear the info on HRFL Tiger isn't dire at this point -- purrs for
the poor baby's indignity and also for your nerves.
Christine
> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Helen M
Cheryl - 23 Feb 2005 02:18 GMT
<snip>

> It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK.
> :o))
>
> Thank you all for the purrs and prayers - you really have no
> idea the difference it made to me having the support.

Good news, and more purrs coming for Tiger!

Signature

Cheryl

Sam Nash - 23 Feb 2005 03:40 GMT
> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Helen M
Well, while not *wonderful* news, it's excellent that the condition can be
successfully dealt with.  Purrs continuing for HRFL Tiger.
Sam, closely supervised by Mistletoe
Krista - 23 Feb 2005 07:21 GMT
> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!

Awww, we're sending purrs his way.  I'm glad it's nothing more serious
than asthma, and that his heart has not gotten dramatically worse!

------
Krista
Lesley Madigan - 23 Feb 2005 09:38 GMT
> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Helen M

I'm so glad! It's nice to get good news like this! Purrs to HRFL and you

Lesley

Slave to the Fabulous Furballs
Judith Latham - 23 Feb 2005 21:21 GMT
> Well, himself is back from the TED, and very miffed about his shaved
> armpits he is too!

> The vet doing the Ultrasound and X-rays was very nice - she was also
> very direct, which I prefer. Apparently, Tigers heart murmer "HAS"
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> significant that it merits medication at the moment as the whole thing
> seems relatively stabalised.

Snipped......

> It's treatable, it's dealable, and my little boy is actually OK. :o))

> Thank you all for the purrs and prayers - you really have no idea the
> difference it made to me having the support.

> Helen M

Purrs and prayers for Tiger and for more good news.

Judith

Signature

Judith Latham
Stourbridge, West Midlands. UK.

 
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