Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / January 2005
(OT) AT LAST!!!!
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Mathew Kagis - 02 Jan 2005 21:35 GMT Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as well as matching private donations dollar for dollar.
Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by the response of average people like you & me. It gives me hope when average folks can affect massive & rapid action by the powers that be.
 Signature Mathew
En Vino Veritas
Mary - 02 Jan 2005 23:33 GMT > Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The > D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the response of average people like you & me. It gives me hope when average > folks can affect massive & rapid action by the powers that be. In wine there is truth?
badwilson - 03 Jan 2005 03:00 GMT > > Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The > > D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > In wine there is truth? No, I think he's talking about my cat, Vino. He never lies. Well, not often anyway ;-) -- Britta Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that's covered in fur! Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
Mary - 03 Jan 2005 04:15 GMT > > > -- > > > Mathew [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Check out pictures of Vino at: > http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album Damn. I wondered why I got to the end of the bottle and didn't feel the least bit enlightened.
Cheryl Perkins - 03 Jan 2005 11:13 GMT Follow-ups set. In rec.pets.cats.anecdotes Mary <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Damn. I wondered why I got to the end of the bottle and didn't feel > the least bit enlightened. I've heard 'Wine in, truth out' as a looser translation. That is, when someone gets drunk, they'll tell you the truth.
This interpretation has caused some nasty fights - 'I really didn't mean it!' 'Yes, you did, you were drunk, and everyone knows, wine in, truth out!'
 Signature Cheryl
Cheryl Perkins - 03 Jan 2005 11:10 GMT Crossposting reduced & follow-ups re-set to keep my software happy.
In rec.pets.cats.anecdotes Mathew Kagis <winesnob@telus.net> wrote:
> Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The > D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as > well as matching private donations dollar for dollar. The matching donation initiative was announced days ago.
> Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by > the response of average people like you & me. It gives me hope when average > folks can affect massive & rapid action by the powers that be. My interpretation of events is exactly opposite. In fact, I was astonished at the claim this morning by a Conservative that such announcements should have been made a week ago - presumably before they even had any idea of the extent of the tragedy which occured a week ago! What a cheap way to try to make political hay out of a tragedy!
I am very pleased and proud of both the amount of my government's donations, and the way in which they are being provided. They have been both generous and thoughtful.
 Signature Cheryl
Mathew Kagis - 03 Jan 2005 18:55 GMT > The matching donation initiative was announced days ago. True, but not before private donations were about to outdistance our govt.'s intial $4m contribution.
> > Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by > > the response of average people like you & me. It gives me hope when average [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the extent of the tragedy which occured a week ago! What a cheap way to > try to make political hay out of a tragedy! As I posted to Bud below, I'm sure it took a large team of Government monkeys DAYS to figure out that a 9.0 quake with 6 meter tsunami waves (Which was known within hours of the event) was bad & that people might be hurt. As to keeping DART in country for 10 extra days... Thery have no excuse. This is a rapid deployment unit. You look at a map, you pick the most densly populated area closest to thre epicenter of the quake & you send them THERE!!!!! If they need to rapidly re-deploy later... This is (in theorey) what they are trained & equipped to do. While our Prime Minister vacationed in Morocco & our Minister of National Defence waffled, people DIED. We could & should have done something FASTER!!!!
> I am very pleased and proud of both the amount of my government's > donations, and the way in which they are being provided. They have been > both generous and thoughtful. ... Generous, eventually. Thoughtfull only on the level of political damage controll...
Just My Opinion Mathew
Cheryl Perkins - 03 Jan 2005 22:17 GMT > As I posted to Bud below, I'm sure it took a large team of Government > monkeys DAYS to figure out that a 9.0 quake with 6 meter tsunami waves [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > vacationed in Morocco & our Minister of National Defence waffled, people > DIED. We could & should have done something FASTER!!!! What, exactly? Don't forget one of the first things to become obvious, that is now becoming increasingly so, is that there is no infrastructure left closest to the epicentre. You couldn't take anything, much less a group needing as much equipment transported as DART does, directly there. Moreover, I prefer a government that thinks and gets information before it acts to one that goes off half-cocked, not even finding out from people on the ground - surviving members of the local government, and international representatives - what was most needed first.
You also don't do your argument any credit by referring to a group of tens of thousands of people, most of them, in my experience, as intelligent and hardworking as any other people as "government monkeys". No, I do not work for any level of government, nor am I related to anyone who does. But I've met enough of them to realize that they are human.
> ... Generous, eventually. Thoughtfull only on the level of political damage > controll...
> Just My Opinion And not mine, obviously. But you're entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to point out that it isn't the only one out here.
 Signature Cheryl
Howard Berkowitz - 04 Jan 2005 02:39 GMT > > As I posted to Bud below, I'm sure it took a large team of > > Government [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > on the ground - surviving members of the local government, and > international representatives - what was most needed first. Some early reports from a professional emergency service list indicated that several C-130s from various relief organizations arrived at an Indonesian airport, to find only one working forklift truck. Yes, there were plenty of volunteers to do hand unloading, but that takes time and defers the turnaround of the aircraft to get another load.
When certain US military units deploy to a base where they don't know conditions, there are usually about five transports. They mix the loads so the loss of one plane wouldn't break a critical chain, but typically the loads include some heavy construction equipment capable of clearing/expanding runways and other infrastructure, generators with fuel, water purification and initial water, full communications equipment, and command posts including computer support and status boards for logistical tracking. In the case of a military deployment, the first things to arrive don't go bang. This also applies to a large-scale relief effort: you don't know if some infrastructure is going to be there, so you bring it. It will be used.
The medical requirements also aren't as obvious as they might be. It's more important to get in water purification, field hospital tents, mass immunization, and infectious disease supplies than surgical teams. The reality is that by the time the surgical teams get there, the critical cases would be dead anyway. The immediate needs are epidemic prevention.
Surgical teams, especially orthopedic, come in later waves, once they have a place to work on the survivors.
> You also don't do your argument any credit by referring to a group of > tens of thousands of people, most of them, in my experience, as > intelligent and hardworking as any other people as "government monkeys". > No, I do not work for any level of government, nor am I related to anyone > who does. But I've met enough of them to realize that they are human. Mathew Kagis - 04 Jan 2005 03:23 GMT <Snip>
> We could & should have done something FASTER!!!! > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > on the ground - surviving members of the local government, and > international representatives - what was most needed first. There is a writeup on DART on CBC's website ( www.cbc.ca ) As I understand the unit, they are self sufficient ie. DESIGNED to go into places where the infrastructure has been destroyed. Please understand, I have a background in Ski Patrol and Search & Rescue. When a plane goes down or a skiier is lost, we diddn't send a team of observers to 'consult' or 'asess the situation' we loaded up our packs with survival gear and got our a.ses moving! Rapid response saved lives. I wonder what your reaction would be to an avalanche rescue team who spent a week asessing the snowpack before looking for missing people?
> You also don't do your argument any credit by referring to a group of > tens of thousands of people, most of them, in my experience, as > intelligent and hardworking as any other people as "government monkeys". > No, I do not work for any level of government, nor am I related to anyone > who does. But I've met enough of them to realize that they are human. Sorry, you misunderstood my context. I was not referring to federal employees as 'monkeys'... I was implying that a room full of chimps could have asessed this situation & decided upon action faster than our sadly bogged in red tape beurocracy has. It ain't rocket science... it's people dying for want of clean water & basic first aid to stop the spread of infection.
> > ... Generous, eventually. Thoughtfull only on the level of political damage > > controll... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > entitled to point out that it isn't the only one out here. > Cheryl ....And you have done that quite effectively. I belive in free speech, even if I disagre with the opinions it generates... Cheers.
"The most effective form of opression known to man is a good beaurocracy"-unknown
 Signature Mathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas
Howard Berkowitz - 04 Jan 2005 04:27 GMT > <Snip> > > We could & should have done something FASTER!!!! [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > to an avalanche rescue team who spent a week asessing the snowpack before > looking for missing people? There are different emergency situations and different kinds of teams. Every disaster response is limited by resources. My experience is principally in emergency medicine, but also with Incident Command for fire and other public emergency services.
The reality is that the actual possibility for rescue, in as widespread a disaster as this, goes down exponentially with time. Teams coming from other continents, not familiar with local geography, are unlikely to be able to do much in direct rescue. The rescues that will have been made will be by locals.
Where external aid is most likely to be helpful in relieving exhausted locals, providing logistic support to ongoing reconstruction, and infrastructure reconstruction.
> > You also don't do your argument any credit by referring to a group of > > tens of thousands of people, most of them, in my experience, as [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > dying for want of clean water & basic first aid to stop the spread of > infection. Let's take a real-world scenario. I have a C-130 loaded with a field water purification system. Let's say it's in Vancouver. Now, a C-130 doesn't have the unrefueled range to get to the area. If it's civilian, the crew probably isn't trained for inflight refueling. AFAIK, Canada doesn't have airborne tankers to stage along the path even if the crew were qualified.
I say C-130 rather than, say, 747F, because a C-130 has impressive short-field landing capability. The latter could carry far more cargo and might even be able to fly there unrefueled, but may not be able to land at the available strip.
As it was, C-130s in one area of Indonesia were bottlenecked because only one forklift was available. At least a C-130 is designed low enough to the ground that it's possible to unload by hand -- this would be unlikely with a jumbo freighter.
In a typical US Air Force deployment to a new combat theater, with nothing known but the existence of a runway, at least 60% of the load of the first 5 or 6 transports is bringing infrastructure. The first tasks are to figure out what comes next.
Cheryl Perkins - 04 Jan 2005 12:15 GMT > moving! Rapid response saved lives. I wonder what your reaction would be > to an avalanche rescue team who spent a week asessing the snowpack before > looking for missing people? Um, that they weren't from the area, and I'd speculate as to why there weren't people with local knowledge around to carry out the rescue?
I don't know a thing about mountain rescue, but I certainly always had the impression that when we need a rescue here, the people who do it are professionals who know the area and have training in appropriate skills, local people who have more knowledge of the area and conditions but less formal training, or a combination of the two, depending on who is closest, who is first aware of the need, and the extent of the search needed.
I strongly suspect if some team, however good, from the Rocky Mountains, wanted to help out with a rescue at sea, they'd do a good bit of studying of the conditions first. Similarly, someone who was really good at handling a small boat in dangerous waters would probably need to spend well over a week assessing the snowpack before trying to recover victims. Or else, they'd add to the number of victims.
 Signature Cheryl
BudGan - 03 Jan 2005 15:37 GMT > Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The > D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as > well as matching private donations dollar for dollar. > > Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by > the response of average people like you & me. I'm sure you'd like to think that, but that is supremely naive. The initial aid appropriated was for immediate help until the dust settled , at which time we were able to ascertain what and where the greater needs were. Throwing money into the wind before the situation was clear just to look good would have been very stupid and wasteful (not to mention political). Now we are able to put the money where it will do the most good.
> It gives me hope when average > folks can affect massive & rapid action by the powers that be. Mathew Kagis - 03 Jan 2005 18:44 GMT > > Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by > > the response of average people like you & me. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to mention political). Now we are able to put the money where it will > do the most good. ....I beg to differ. Our Prime Minister stayed on vacation in Morocco, as the tragedey unfolded. The Govt's financial contribution magically jumped from $4m to $40m when private cziticens donations were about to eclipse their own. Immediate help would have constitiuted getting the DART unit in the air the day of the tragedey, not 10 days later (they are, in theorey, a rapid deployment team). As the world knew within hoursof the event that it was a 9.0 quake & 6 meter tsunami waves, I'm sure it took a large team of government monkeys to figure out...'hmmm, this might be BAD'
Mathew
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