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(OT)  AT LAST!!!!

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Mathew Kagis - 02 Jan 2005 21:35 GMT
Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The
D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as
well as matching private donations dollar for dollar.

Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by
the response of average people like you & me. It gives me hope when average
folks can affect massive & rapid action by the powers that be.

Signature

Mathew

En Vino Veritas

Mary - 02 Jan 2005 23:33 GMT
> Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The
> D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the response of average people like you & me. It gives me hope when average
> folks can affect massive & rapid action by the powers that be.

In wine there is truth?
badwilson - 03 Jan 2005 03:00 GMT
> > Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The
> > D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> In wine there is truth?

No, I think he's talking about my cat, Vino.  He never lies.  Well,
not often anyway ;-)
--
Britta
Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that's
covered in fur!
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
Mary - 03 Jan 2005 04:15 GMT
> > > --
> > > Mathew
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Check out pictures of Vino at:
> http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

Damn. I wondered why I got to the end of the bottle and didn't feel
the least bit enlightened.
Cheryl Perkins - 03 Jan 2005 11:13 GMT
Follow-ups set.
In rec.pets.cats.anecdotes Mary <crazyaboutfelines@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Damn. I wondered why I got to the end of the bottle and didn't feel
> the least bit enlightened.

I've heard 'Wine in, truth out' as a looser translation. That is, when
someone gets drunk, they'll tell you the truth.

This interpretation has caused some nasty fights - 'I really didn't mean
it!' 'Yes, you did, you were drunk, and everyone knows, wine in, truth
out!'

Signature

Cheryl

Cheryl Perkins - 03 Jan 2005 11:10 GMT
Crossposting reduced & follow-ups re-set to keep my software happy.

In rec.pets.cats.anecdotes Mathew Kagis <winesnob@telus.net> wrote:
> Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The
> D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as
> well as matching private donations dollar for dollar.

The matching donation initiative was announced days ago.

> Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by
> the response of average people like you & me. It gives me hope when average
> folks can affect massive & rapid action by the powers that be.

My interpretation of events is exactly opposite. In fact, I was astonished
at the claim this morning by a Conservative that such announcements should
have been made a week ago - presumably before they even had any idea of
the extent of the tragedy which occured a week ago! What a cheap way to
try to make political hay out of a tragedy!

I am very pleased and proud of both the amount of my government's
donations, and the way in which they are being provided. They have been
both generous and thoughtful.

Signature

Cheryl

Mathew Kagis - 03 Jan 2005 18:55 GMT
> The matching donation initiative was announced days ago.

True, but not before private donations were about to outdistance our govt.'s
intial $4m contribution.

> > Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by
> > the response of average people like you & me. It gives me hope when average
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the extent of the tragedy which occured a week ago! What a cheap way to
> try to make political hay out of a tragedy!

 As I posted to Bud below,  I'm sure it took a large team of Government
monkeys DAYS to figure out that a 9.0 quake with 6 meter tsunami waves
(Which was known within hours of the event) was bad & that people might be
hurt.  As to keeping DART in country for 10 extra days...  Thery have no
excuse.  This is a rapid deployment unit.  You look at a map, you pick the
most densly populated area closest to thre epicenter of the quake & you send
them THERE!!!!!  If they need to rapidly re-deploy later... This is (in
theorey) what they are trained & equipped to do.  While our Prime Minister
vacationed in Morocco & our Minister of National Defence waffled, people
DIED.  We could & should have done something FASTER!!!!

> I am very pleased and proud of both the amount of my government's
> donations, and the way in which they are being provided. They have been
> both generous and thoughtful.

... Generous, eventually. Thoughtfull only on the level of political damage
controll...

Just My Opinion
Mathew
Cheryl Perkins - 03 Jan 2005 22:17 GMT
>   As I posted to Bud below,  I'm sure it took a large team of Government
> monkeys DAYS to figure out that a 9.0 quake with 6 meter tsunami waves
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> vacationed in Morocco & our Minister of National Defence waffled, people
> DIED.  We could & should have done something FASTER!!!!

What, exactly? Don't forget one of the first things to become obvious,
that is now becoming increasingly so, is that there is no infrastructure
left closest to the epicentre. You couldn't take anything, much less a
group needing as much equipment transported as DART does, directly there.
Moreover, I prefer a government that thinks and gets information before it
acts to one that goes off half-cocked, not even finding out from people
on the ground - surviving members of the local government, and
international representatives - what was most needed first.

You also don't do your argument any credit by referring to a group of
tens of thousands of people, most of them, in my experience, as
intelligent and hardworking as any other people as "government monkeys".
No, I do not work for any level of government, nor am I related to anyone
who does. But I've met enough of them to realize that they are human.

> ... Generous, eventually. Thoughtfull only on the level of political damage
> controll...

> Just My Opinion

And not mine, obviously. But you're entitled to your opinion as I am
entitled to point out that it isn't the only one out here.

Signature

Cheryl

Howard Berkowitz - 04 Jan 2005 02:39 GMT
> >   As I posted to Bud below,  I'm sure it took a large team of
> >   Government
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> on the ground - surviving members of the local government, and
> international representatives - what was most needed first.

Some early reports from a professional emergency service list indicated
that several C-130s from various relief organizations arrived at an
Indonesian airport, to find only one working forklift truck.  Yes, there
were plenty of volunteers to do hand unloading, but that takes time and
defers the turnaround of the aircraft to get another load.

When certain US military units deploy to a base where they don't know
conditions, there are usually about five transports. They mix the loads
so the loss of one plane wouldn't break a critical chain, but typically
the loads include some heavy construction equipment capable of
clearing/expanding runways and other infrastructure, generators with
fuel, water purification and initial water, full communications
equipment, and command posts including computer support and status
boards for logistical tracking. In the case of a military deployment,
the first things to arrive don't go bang. This also applies to a
large-scale relief effort: you don't know if some infrastructure is
going to be there, so you bring it. It will be used.

The medical requirements also aren't as obvious as they might be. It's
more important to get in water purification, field hospital tents, mass
immunization, and infectious disease supplies than surgical teams. The
reality is that by the time the surgical teams get there, the critical
cases would be dead anyway.  The immediate needs are epidemic prevention.

Surgical teams, especially orthopedic, come in later waves, once they
have a place to work on the survivors.

> You also don't do your argument any credit by referring to a group of
> tens of thousands of people, most of them, in my experience, as
> intelligent and hardworking as any other people as "government monkeys".
> No, I do not work for any level of government, nor am I related to anyone
> who does. But I've met enough of them to realize that they are human.
Mathew Kagis - 04 Jan 2005 03:23 GMT
<Snip>
>   We could & should have done something FASTER!!!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> on the ground - surviving members of the local government, and
> international representatives - what was most needed first.

There is a writeup on DART on CBC's website ( www.cbc.ca )   As I understand
the unit, they are self sufficient ie. DESIGNED to go into places where the
infrastructure has been destroyed.  Please understand, I have a background
in Ski Patrol and Search & Rescue.  When a plane goes down or a skiier is
lost, we diddn't send a team of observers to 'consult' or 'asess the
situation' we loaded up our packs with survival gear and got our a.ses
moving!  Rapid response saved lives.  I wonder what your reaction would be
to an avalanche rescue team who spent a week asessing the snowpack before
looking for missing people?

> You also don't do your argument any credit by referring to a group of
> tens of thousands of people, most of them, in my experience, as
> intelligent and hardworking as any other people as "government monkeys".
> No, I do not work for any level of government, nor am I related to anyone
> who does. But I've met enough of them to realize that they are human.

Sorry, you misunderstood my context.  I was not referring to federal
employees as 'monkeys'... I was implying that a room full of chimps could
have asessed this situation & decided upon action faster than our sadly
bogged in red tape beurocracy has.  It ain't rocket science... it's people
dying for want of clean water & basic first aid to stop the spread of
infection.

> > ... Generous, eventually. Thoughtfull only on the level of political damage
> > controll...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> entitled to point out that it isn't the only one out here.
> Cheryl
....And you have done that quite effectively.  I belive in free speech, even
if I disagre with the opinions it generates... Cheers.

"The most effective form of opression known to man is a good
beaurocracy"-unknown

Signature

Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Howard Berkowitz - 04 Jan 2005 04:27 GMT
> <Snip>
> >   We could & should have done something FASTER!!!!
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> to an avalanche rescue team who spent a week asessing the snowpack before
> looking for missing people?

There are different emergency situations and different kinds of teams.  
Every disaster response is limited by resources. My experience is
principally in emergency medicine, but also with Incident Command for
fire and other public emergency services.

The reality is that the actual possibility for rescue, in as widespread
a disaster as this, goes down exponentially with time.  Teams coming
from other continents, not familiar with local geography, are unlikely
to be able to do much in direct rescue. The rescues that will have been
made will be by locals.

Where external aid is most likely to be helpful in relieving exhausted
locals, providing logistic support to ongoing reconstruction, and
infrastructure reconstruction.

> > You also don't do your argument any credit by referring to a group of
> > tens of thousands of people, most of them, in my experience, as
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> dying for want of clean water & basic first aid to stop the spread of
> infection.

Let's take a real-world scenario. I have a C-130 loaded with a field
water purification system. Let's say it's in Vancouver. Now, a C-130
doesn't have the unrefueled range to get to the area. If it's civilian,
the crew probably isn't trained for inflight refueling. AFAIK, Canada
doesn't have airborne tankers to stage along the path even if the crew
were qualified.

I say C-130 rather than, say,  747F, because a C-130 has impressive
short-field landing capability. The latter could carry far more cargo
and might even be able to fly there unrefueled, but may not be able to
land at the available strip.

As it was, C-130s in one area of Indonesia were bottlenecked because
only one forklift was available. At least a C-130 is designed low enough
to the ground that it's possible to unload by hand -- this would be
unlikely with a jumbo freighter.

In a typical US Air Force deployment to a new combat theater, with
nothing known but the existence of a runway, at least 60% of the load of
the first 5 or 6 transports is bringing infrastructure. The first tasks
are to figure out what comes next.
Cheryl Perkins - 04 Jan 2005 12:15 GMT
> moving!  Rapid response saved lives.  I wonder what your reaction would be
> to an avalanche rescue team who spent a week asessing the snowpack before
> looking for missing people?

Um, that they weren't from the area, and I'd speculate as to why there
weren't people with local knowledge around to carry out the rescue?

I don't know a thing about mountain rescue, but I certainly always had the
impression that when we need a rescue here, the people who do it are
professionals who know the area and have training in appropriate skills,
local people who have more knowledge of the area and conditions but less
formal training, or a combination of the two, depending on who is closest,
who is first aware of the need, and the extent of the search needed.

I strongly suspect if some team, however good, from the Rocky Mountains,
wanted to help out with a rescue at sea, they'd do a good bit of studying
of the conditions first. Similarly, someone who was really good at
handling a small boat in dangerous waters would probably need to spend
well over a week assessing the snowpack before trying to recover victims.
Or else, they'd add to the number of victims.

Signature

Cheryl

BudGan - 03 Jan 2005 15:37 GMT
> Thaks to all who sent an e-mail to the Minister of National Defence... The
> D.A.R.T. unit is off to Sri Lanka!!!! Our Govt. is now tossing in $80m as
> well as matching private donations dollar for dollar.
>
> Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by
> the response of average people like you & me.

I'm sure you'd like to think that, but that is supremely naive.  The
initial aid appropriated was for immediate help until the dust settled
, at which time we were able to ascertain what and where the greater
needs were. Throwing money into the wind before the situation was
clear just to look good would have been very stupid and wasteful (not
to mention political). Now we are able to put the money where it will
do the most good.

> It gives me hope when average
> folks can affect massive & rapid action by the powers that be.
Mathew Kagis - 03 Jan 2005 18:44 GMT
> > Alot of our govt.'s response has been because they were shamed into it by
> > the response of average people like you & me.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> to mention political). Now we are able to put the money where it will
> do the most good.

....I beg to differ.  Our Prime Minister stayed on vacation in Morocco, as
the tragedey unfolded. The Govt's financial contribution magically jumped
from $4m to $40m when private cziticens donations were about to eclipse
their own.  Immediate help would have constitiuted getting the DART unit in
the air the day of the tragedey, not 10 days later (they are, in theorey, a
rapid deployment team).  As the world knew within hoursof the event that it
was a 9.0 quake & 6 meter tsunami waves, I'm sure it took a large team of
government monkeys to figure out...'hmmm, this might be BAD'

Mathew
 
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