Ok, this is probably below the belt but I for one would *not* want to
subject Abi to watching a tiger hide under his butchered father right now.
In fact, I'd welcome the heads up for any tearjerker children's movie for
the next few months :)

I have to go with Catnipped on this one Zorin. For the child that may not
relate to death can be frightened or upset by this. I agree, we should not
bring our children up in a rose colored world but save the traumatizing
"real world" for when they can comprehend and think on it in a logical
manner. This right now would turn my girl into a basketcase for the next
couple nights, regardless family events of late.

Grace

h

I couldn't decide what and where to snip on this emotive issue, so I didn't
but I have to say that in the main, I agree with Catnipped.
I am on a uk bird group (because I love wild birds) which is mostly
patronised by men and I have been severely slammed on a number of occasions
by saying that just now and again I'd like to see a wildlife programme about
Africa without watching a frantic impala trying to defend her fawn against a
pack of wild dogs (and failing) or something or other torn limb from limb by
big cats.  The bird films they seem to like are the ones about raptors.  The
criteria for a good wildlife film with them seems to be the gorier (is that
a word?) the better.  It's so much better to see in close up a sparrowhawk
eating it's small bird prey alive.  For them.   Not for me.

Yes, I know it happens.  I've had a sparrowhawk snatch a bird I was trying
to save right out of my hand a year or two back.  I do not want to watch it
for entertainment.  It doesn't entertain me at all, because all my life I
have been easily traumatised and prone to nightmares.  I have tried for
years to get tougher but it hasn't worked, so I have to accept for my own
protection that I must be careful what I view.
My problem is that I empathise too much.  I can always imagine what
something/someone is going through, and it becomes my own.  If you can just
take the message from it, note it, and it doesn't affect you too much, well,
fine.  I admire you.  I suppose these films are projected at these sort of
people, which may  very well be the majority for all I know.
However, I absolutely cannot bear to see graphic depictions of suffering,
animal or human.  I suspect Catnipped is the same.   When 9/11 happened, I
was just coming into the room and the TV was on.  I saw all these people
jumping out of the windows falling to their deaths.  I thought it was some
sort of disaster movie and switched it off.
When I realised (local farmer said to me a hour later "did you see what
happened in America?")  I said no, what happened in America?   Then he told
me it was *real*  Then I had nightmares for over a year about it.
I will not, and never will I don't suppose, confide the mind games my
stepfather played with me when I was 10, 11.  Just one then -  "pretend I am
killing your pet rabbit and you can see it choking and dying right in front
of you and can do nothing to help it.."

So now you know why I have to be careful with my mind and why I need only to
see and experience nice things in order to get over it, Zorin.  I know you
aren't a man, and I didn't mean to suggest that only men can post nasty
posts on groups and such.

Some of us here - seems  like quite a lot to me - have been damaged by our
life experiences.  Because of that, don't assume all of us can take what you
can.
<end of poor me post>

BTW, Zorin, your cat is *gorgeous* on his Christmas photo.  He looks so
healthy and his coat is just lovely.  I know why he got his name now, he
does look a bit like one, doesn't he?  He has tiny tufts on his ears too.

-------------
This bit is OT but this annoyed me a lot.  It was very cold overnight and my
car was covered in frost this morning, so I moved it from the shade on my
drive into the sun on the road to let the frost thaw and save me from
scraping it all.  I did have to scrape windscreen, back and sides so I could
see where to put it!  I turned the key.  It went ruh, ruh, ruh.  Not usual.
Anyway we made it into the street.
Did everything I needed to do here with chickens, geese and cats, had a bath
and hair wash and got into the car to go to my Uncle & Aunt's 11 miles away.
I put the key in and turned it.  Nothing at all.  Completely dead.  I am
ashamed to say I've had this car quite a few months and never had the bonnet
up ;-(   I didn't even know where the lever was to open the bonnet, but I
did find it, and pulled it.  I heard a sound that suggested the bonnet
(hood) was prepared to open itself so I got out and tried to open it.  No
go, couldn't even get the hood up.

My neighbour went by with his two dogs - out for a wee, etc - and offered to
help.   He took the dogs back to the house and had a go, bless his little
cotton socks, he knows about as much as I do about cars!   He asked me if I
had any jump leads and I said yes, and went and got them.
His partner drew the front of her car right up to mine.    We connected the
jump leads from her battery to mine.
That was fine, as soon as some charge went from their battery to mine, it
started.  We ran it for a few minutes to get some charge into my battery.
"Switch it off now and see if you can start it again" and we disconnected
the jump leads.  I switched the engine off and tried to start it again.  No
go.
So it's either the battery or the alternator that charges it.
I was so looking forward to spending Boxing Day with my uncle and aunt and
cousins/second/third cousins.  Ah well.
That's bloody cars for you!  I had to stay home alone.

If it happens again, the car will go.  I had my last car for 6 years, took
care of it and had it serviced regularly and the first time it broke down on
me, it went for a scrap cube.

If a car breaks down on me and dumps me somewhere, I have no-one to call to
rescue me.  So I always have them serviced at recommended intervals and if
they dump me, they are out on a permanent basis.

It is inconvenient, not to say possibly dangerous for me for my car not to
get me where I want to go.

(Nasty experience walking home last night very late from my brother's house)
A drunk.  A nasty and maybe dangerous one who challenged me twice.
Tweed
(but I'm still OK!!!)

I agree with you, Joyce. Even when reading a book, I find cruelty to
animals totally unaceptable, and these are animals that only ever
existed in the authors imagination.

I certainly don't think anybody has a right to tell another person what
movies they should see, much less what they should like.  I respect your
feelings, and those of people who don't wish to see the movie or who
disliked it.  I found it disturbing at tomes, but overall I thought it was a
very good movie.  That, however, is my opinion alone, and others have the
right to their opinions about it.

Joy

Well said, Yowie!  I, too, usually go to a movie to be entertained.
However, I have deeply appreciated movies such as "Amistad" and "Schindler's
List".  I would have been very upset if I thought they were going to be
light entertainment, but I knew what to expect.

Nobody has a right to tell others what movies they should see or enjoy.
Besides, if everybody liked the same type of movie, there would be no
variety, and it would be much harder to get a seat to see one.

Joy

Apparently Zorin simply copied one random post out of several on a discussion
forum. The one thing I noticed in reading the rest of the reviews, is that
Grace is exactly right. That movie's trailer gives the impression that it's a
suitable movie for children, and it's not. Another mother posted the same
thing.
That review, IMO, wasn't a review at all. It was just American-bashing. I don't
know about every one else, but I don't go to the movies to be preached at or
"educated". I go to be entertained.
Has anyone seen Phantom of the Opera yet?

Sherry

I know, I responded to the same post :)

Grace

You didn't. I just got out of the hottub. I tossed in some of the stress
relief smellies I have and finished my book. I'm relaxed into a nice state.
Feels like it'll last me  a few days :)

Grace

Catnipped,

I would like to apologize if I pissed you off with I posted. I didn't
mean it to offend, I was just stating my point of view.

I happen to enjoy a good story. If violence and suffering are part of
the story, but it's still a good story, that doesn't detract much from
my enjoyment of the story.

Sure, my heart sank a bit when I saw the tigers die and get abused. I
felt anger towards the horrible characters in the movie, who brought
harm to the animals. But these emotions are part of the story, and are
what makes it a good experience.

When I saw "The Lion King" the first time, I cried when Mufasa died. I
was not happy at that point; it was a very sad story. But the very fact
that the movie could instill emotion is what made it such a wonderful film.

Of course, if you like happy-go-lucky stories only, then that's your
choice, and I fully respect you not enjoying the movie.

I'm sorry about the "review" I posted; I was just looking for someone
who was on my side, and perhaps I should have looked for a different one
that didn't slam American moviegoers. That was an error on my part,
please forgive.

Thanks for listening, and sorry if I upset you on xmas.

-John "Zorin" Flynn  (I noticed you put my name in quotes, didn't want
to seem impersonal here; Zorin's my online nickname)

I think the complaint is that it looked like a feel good movie.

As far as movies necessitating happiness and sadness to be good... I
disagree. Our movies yes, an adult movie needs a plot. But what happened to
a children's movie just being nice and enjoyable and pleasant without the
drama angst and worry? Sure, ok, Mufasa died, an *adult* understands that to
grow up to be strong etc etc etc Simba had to become a runaway orphan.
*ponders this*

Bah... I don't have anything positive to say. Other than I believe the
argument here is that some of us want an enjoyable movie that doesn't have
any parts where our hearts are lurched in our throats.

Grace

Come on, there are plnty of intelligent films that are light, whimsical,
and don't have any terror, violence, death, or serious pain. I think you're
setting up a false dichotomy where "smart film" == "reality" == "suffering"
and "happy film" == "delusional" == "stupid Disney pablum". Sometimes those
equivalences are true, but you're way oversimplifying things to say that
they are always true. I mean, think of all the moronic shoot-em-ups if you
want the opposite example.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd like to impress on you and anyone
else who bothers to read my posts that I AM NOT DISPARAGING THIS FILM.
I, personally, simply cannot watch it, for my own reasons - which have
nothing whatsoever to do with wanting to be fed a diet of stupidity and
ignorance.

Thank you.

Joyce

Like Hansel & Gretl ?  Yeah, run away from home, get lost in the forrest,
fattened up to be eaten by a cruel witch.  Lovely fairy tale, that.

Jill

It's an almost necessary plot device, though, if you want your movie to be
about children overcoming danger or adversity. If both parents are still
around, what you have is a story about a family overcoming danger and
adversity, which can be a fine story, but is a different one from the
child-protaganist type. And of course, a child can identify with a heroic
child in a different way from the way that they identify with
child-as-member-of-heroic family.

Some of the really old fairy tales are far more violent than their modern
versions, and the taming down of the stories wasn't all Disney's doing.
Someone, I forget who, maybe more than one someone, speculated that
children needed to experience a certain amount of 'safe' horror to develop
properly. A lot of the themes, particularly the death of a parent and the
arrival of a stepparent, may have simply reflected a society in which many
women died young, often in childbirth.

Historically speaking, the Brothers  Grimm (originators of many wellknown
fairytales) wrote for adults, not children.

Grace

My son and I were talking about the very same thing recently.  The
discussion started because of his comments about "Lemony Snicket's Series of
Unfortunate Events".  He remarked that a children's story should have a
happy ending, and specifically referred to the fact that the children were
still orphans at the end of the movie.  I reminded him that most fairy
tales, which were ostensibly aimed at children, were terribly dark.

Joy

I read this book when I was very young, and while it was traumatic, I don't
think it was horrible.  In fact, it may have helped form my sympathy to
animals, my empathy for others, etc.

It probably depends on the temperament of the child.  I agree that parental
involvement is important.