Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / December 2004
Scarlett
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Cheryl - 23 Dec 2004 03:12 GMT I realize I haven't posted any updates, but I don't have much to tell. She went back to TED today and they took a bunch (!) of blood to test her for various things. FIV/FLV was one I was going to have done again anyway, but they're also testing for toxoplasmosis, and exposure to the feline coronavirus because 2 vets now have said the letters FIP. Good news I guess is that vet gave us the antibiotic for toxo (an antirobe) to start on because she thinks its probable. She's still sleeping an awful lot, but has a good appetite, and even gained a little more weight since Saturday (I'm afraid maybe being at work away from home 11 hours a day might be making her undernourished because I don't think she's eating the dry food I leave for between meals) :( Her temp was down today and her eyes look a little better since they aren't as red, but she still squints like they're sensitive to light. No more seisure-like activity since the first on Saturday.
 Signature Cheryl
Julie Cook - 23 Dec 2004 03:17 GMT > I realize I haven't posted any updates, but I don't have much to > tell. She went back to TED today and they took a bunch (!) of blood [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sensitive to light. No more seisure-like activity since the first on > Saturday. Poor baby, she's having such a tough time of it right now. Hobbes, Selena, Lacey and Sam are sending their most sincere purrs and gentle headbutts that Scarlett continues to improve and that all of the tests for feline nasties come back negative. Headbutts for you too, Cheryl.
Julie, Hobbes, Selena, Lacey and Sam
Karen Chuplis - 23 Dec 2004 03:35 GMT > I realize I haven't posted any updates, but I don't have much to > tell. She went back to TED today and they took a bunch (!) of blood [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sensitive to light. No more seisure-like activity since the first on > Saturday. Well, that is certainly good that there have been no more of that stuff! I will order the kitties to purr for Scarlett while I am gone.
Marina - 23 Dec 2004 17:43 GMT > I realize I haven't posted any updates, but I don't have much to > tell. She went back to TED today and they took a bunch (!) of blood [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sensitive to light. No more seisure-like activity since the first on > Saturday. Poor little baby. We're still purring for a good diagnosis, easy treatment and quick recovery.
 Signature Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki
Dee - 23 Dec 2004 20:19 GMT > I realize I haven't posted any updates, but I don't have much to > tell. She went back to TED today and they took a bunch (!) of blood [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sensitive to light. No more seisure-like activity since the first on > Saturday. Cheryl,
I'm really sorry to hear about Scarlett. The origin of h0p's problems was apparently toxoplasmosis too. I had no idea he was ill until he had an extremely violent seizure in the middle of the night. h0p has other problems - heart murmer, IBD, and a failing liver, and so he went through alot of testing. He was initially put on phenobarbital for his seizures which worked well for about 2 years. He suddenly became very ill and depressed to the point where his ver suggested that I have him put down. I took him to see Dr. Deena Tiches at the VCA Veterinary Referral Associates in Gaithersburg. Both the liver problems and the depression were attributed to the phenobarbital, and she switched him to a liquid medication called Neurontin which I get from The Professional Arts Pharmacy in Baltimore. I wish you and Scarlett the best of luck, I'd like to know how things turn out or if you have any pointers that might help the h0p.
This year Misty had to go to RadioCat for hyperthyroidism treatment, George had another mast cell tumor removed, we lost little Ceili to cancer, and we got a new kitten named Ivy - and so life goes on. Happy Holidays to you and yours.
Dee
Cheryl - 24 Dec 2004 04:14 GMT > I'm really sorry to hear about Scarlett. The origin of h0p's > problems was apparently toxoplasmosis too. I had no idea he was [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > like to know how things turn out or if you have any pointers > that might help the h0p. Dee, I hadn't seen anything about h0p in so long, I actually feared the worst. I'm sorry he's still having problems and I hope Dr Tiches can help him. Scarlett has only had the one episode that I know of, and I got her test results back today and all of the kitty nasties came up negative, so no toxo, or worse, for her thank God. I'm now instructed to just keep an eye on her for any further episodes and if she has any, it could be idiopathic epilepsy, but I'm hoping it was just hunger. I've been off from work all week and she's eating a lot more than she was, and is actually putting on weight, so I'm going to have to figure out a way to keep her eating like this when I go back to work next week. She's been very well today, and PLAYFUL like she was a few weeks ago so I think she's on the mend.
> This year Misty had to go to RadioCat for hyperthyroidism > treatment, George had another mast cell tumor removed, we lost > little Ceili to cancer, and we got a new kitten named Ivy - and > so life goes on. Happy Holidays to you and yours. I'm so sorry about Ceili. You did a wonderful thing for her by taking her in, and her last bit of time was better for it. Please give George and your new baby Ivy scritches from me! Happy holidays to you as well, and it's great hearing from you.
 Signature Cheryl
Marina - 24 Dec 2004 06:59 GMT > Scarlett has only had the one episode that I > know of, and I got her test results back today and all of the kitty > nasties came up negative, so no toxo, or worse, for her thank God. Thank goodness! Yay Scarlett, and may she continue to eat, grow and be a hoolikitten!
 Signature Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki
Christine Burel - 25 Dec 2004 03:21 GMT > > Scarlett has only had the one episode that I > > know of, and I got her test results back today and all of the kitty > > nasties came up negative, so no toxo, or worse, for her thank God. > > Thank goodness! Yay Scarlett, and may she continue to eat, grow and be a > hoolikitten! Also, very glad to hear this, Cheryl. Christine
Dee - 27 Dec 2004 06:23 GMT > Dee, I hadn't seen anything about h0p in so long, I actually feared > the worst. I'm sorry he's still having problems and I hope Dr > Tiches can help him. Scarlett has only had the one episode that I > know of, and I got her test results back today and all of the kitty > nasties came up negative, so no toxo, or worse, for her thank God. I'm so glad to hear it Cheryl. I wanted to let you know about the medication that h0p was taking because it's apparently fairly new to treat animals with neurontin and it's helped him quite a bit. If Scarlett should continue to have seizures (and I know how scary it is) it might be something to keep in mind. h0p had a difficult year including an accidental burn, but he's proved to be a little miracle. He's slowed down alot and is obviously not in top form, but he'll celebrate his twelveth birthday in six days, and there was a time we never thought we'd see that.
Oh! I mentioned, Misty, h0p, George, Ceili, and Ivy, but didn't mention Sam so I felt bad at leaving him out! He's as big and handsome, healthy and happy as ever :) Wishing you, and all of you, a very happy new year.
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~powersd/group2.html <-- late last year http://www.wam.umd.edu/~powersd/Ivy.jpg <-- Little Ivy
new pics soon!
Dee
Howard Berkowitz - 27 Dec 2004 18:27 GMT > > Dee, I hadn't seen anything about h0p in so long, I actually feared > > the worst. I'm sorry he's still having problems and I hope Dr [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > alot and is obviously not in top form, but he'll celebrate his twelveth > birthday in six days, and there was a time we never thought we'd see that. Neurontin (generic name gabapentin) isn't quite a major breakthrough drug, as in a completely new therapeutic class, but it's an important improvement both for preventing convulsion and treating pain from nerve damage. In the present climate of problems in reporting side effects, I thought I might add one that's been observed by several human physicians I know, but isn't mentioned in the product literature.
I have no way of knowing if this will occur in cats, but it appears to cause weight gain in a fair number of humans. In some of these cases, that may even be beneficial, to a patient that's debilitated from convulsions or intractable nerve pain. Up to very recently, it was the best thing we had for diabetic neuropathic pain, although a new and specific agent has just been approved for that indication. Research I'm tracking indicate that it's reasonably likely that several new classes of pain management drugs will be reaching approval soon, but I have no idea if they can be used in cats.
CatNipped - 27 Dec 2004 20:15 GMT > Neurontin (generic name gabapentin) isn't quite a major breakthrough > drug, as in a completely new therapeutic class, but it's an important [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > of pain management drugs will be reaching approval soon, but I have no > idea if they can be used in cats. Please be careful and do a lot of research before using Neurontin. Pfizer has promoted this drug for at least 11 "off-label" medical conditions, including pain management (pain management is a multi-billion dollar market). Here's a link that tells more about their unethical practices: http://www.citizen.org/ELETTER/ARTICLES/neurontin.htm
From the article:
"A senior marketing executive at Parke-Davis was quoted during a teleconference as saying to medical liaisons:
Pain management, now that's money. Monotherapy, that's money. We don't want to share these patients with everybody, we want them on Neurontin only. We want their whole drug budget, not a quarter, not half, the whole thing....That's where we need to be holding their hand and whispering in their ear: 'Neurontin for pain, Neurontin for monotherapy, Neurontin for everything' ... I don't want to hear that safety crap either, have you tried Neurontin, every one of you should take one just to see there is nothing [that the drug is safe], it's a great drug."
It was prescribed to me for my Fibromyalgia and when I had to quit taking it the withdrawal was devastating - including nausea, feeling electrical shock-like tingling all over my body, headache, dizziness, swelling limbs, black-out episodes (quite scary when driving), trembling, feeling increased pain, and panic attacks.
Hugs,
CatNipped
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 27 Dec 2004 21:40 GMT >>Neurontin (generic name gabapentin) isn't quite a major breakthrough >>drug, as in a completely new therapeutic class, but it's an important [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > black-out episodes (quite scary when driving), trembling, feeling increased > pain, and panic attacks. Thanks for the warnings, guys! My doctor prescribed this because I'd been complaining of increasing numbness in my feet and lower legs (my previous doctor called it "non-diabetic neuropathy", and told me there was no effective treatment). I was already a bit skeptical when the literature the pharmacist gave me described it as a medication used for eplileptic seizures, although I thought I'd give it the benefit of the doubt - until I noticed the label on the bottle which cautioned me to "carry or wear medical identification stating you are taking this medicine". I'll keep the numbness, thanks! Fortunately, I'd only taken three one-a-day doses, so experienced no side-effects. (I see where I and my new doctor must have a little talk - my former doctor understood that I will not take ANY medication until I have been convinced it is truly necessary!)
Howard Berkowitz - 27 Dec 2004 22:58 GMT > Thanks for the warnings, guys! My doctor prescribed this > because I'd been complaining of increasing numbness in my [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > take ANY medication until I have been convinced it is truly > necessary!) Your doctor troubles me somewhat. Numbness in legs/feet and arms/hands is not something that should simply be given symptomatic treatment. If there's no other explanation, yes, an anticonvulsant would be a reasonable empirical treatment.
If a primary practitioner -- and I don't know your doctor's background -- can't come up with a good explanation, I would want a referral to a neurologist, as the most likely practitioner to figure it out. I wouldn't accept "non-diabetic neuropathy" without a full workup; I don't think that's even an accepteble diagnostic code in the International Classification of Diseases (ICD).
An adequate workup would include the type of specialized physical examination that neurologists tend to do, quite likely nerve conduction studies and electromyography, general blood testing plus B vitamin levels and assorted indicators of inflammation, and possibly imaging such as ultrasound. The latter would be especially important if there were any question about the blood circulation in your legs. I'd want to know how diabetes was ruled out, minimally with a hemoglobin A1C test and possible a glucose tolerance test.
Deficiency, or abnormal absorption, of B vitamins can cause symptoms like this. Unfortunately, while it's generally impossible to overdose on B vitamins, this isn't true of vitamin B6 (pyridoxine). Both B6 deficiency and overdose can cause peripheral neuropathy.
Howard Berkowitz - 27 Dec 2004 21:55 GMT > > Neurontin (generic name gabapentin) isn't quite a major breakthrough > > drug, as in a completely new therapeutic class, but it's an important [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > market). Here's a link that tells more about their unethical practices: > http://www.citizen.org/ELETTER/ARTICLES/neurontin.htm I have no financial or personal interest in Pfizer. I do, however, have an appreciable background in the scientific basis of pain management, and have seen appreciable independent research, as well as specific clinical applications, where gabapentin gave relief for neurogenic pain that could not be relieved by other drugs.
> From the article: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Neurontin, every one of you should take one just to see there is nothing > [that the drug is safe], it's a great drug." The above indeed is crap. Nevertheless, see comments below.
> It was prescribed to me for my Fibromyalgia and when I had to quit taking > it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > increased > pain, and panic attacks. Gabapentin, as do other drugs, including those with multiple approved applications, are of the family of anticonvulsants. Some of their modes of action involve increasing the action potential (i.e., triggering level) of various peripheral and central nerves.
Regardless of what the Pfizer marketdroid said, there are many extremely legitimate indications, on and off label, for the several classes of anticonvulsants. Valproate and carbemazepine may well be more effective and safer than lithium for hypomanic states and some other mood disorders. Carbemazepine was the first treatment for tic douloreaux, often described as the worst pain syndrome known, that did not involve destroying the trigeminal nerve, a key facial nerve.
I would find it extremely unlikely that ANY reputable pharmacology textbook or medical school course would EVER recommend quitting an anticonvulsant that the patient has been taking for any appreciable time. Especially when there is a history of a convulsive disorder, but even when the drug has been prescribed for other purposes, seizures are not at all uncommon.
The reactions describe could very well have taken place had you suddenly stopped, after therapy of any duration, any anticonvulsant, be it phenytoin, carbemazepine, valproate, phenobarbital, etc. Indeed, when there is a medical necessity to stop drugs of this class, hospitalization is frequently recommended (especially with barbiturates). Severe physical withdrawal is less likely with benzdiazepine anticonvulsants such as clonazepam -- which has other valid applications, some on and off label. I take it myself, and have been terrified at the possible reactions on running out. While I haven't had any severe reactions, I absolutely would not drive, for example, if I had missed several doses.
Having lost my insurance, I fully appreciate the problems that an expensive drug can present. While some drug warnings are more to protect the manufacturer, this is a class of drugs where the warning not to stop without medical supervision is not an exaggeration.
There is also no generally accepted treatment for fibromyalgia, and a quite competent rheumatologist or neurologist is quite likely to try an assortment of drugs (and nonpharmacologic treatments) on a mostly trial and error basis. There really is no alternative to such an approach.
In other words, it's not all evil drug companies.
CatNipped - 28 Dec 2004 02:01 GMT <snipped lots of good pharmacological information>
> In other words, it's not all evil drug companies. Well...
I can't disagree with anything you wrote (mostly because so much of it went right over my head so far it didn't even muss my hair ;>), but I think you can admit that the pharmaceutical companies are not in the business for philanthropic reasons. Just like the rest of us capitalists, they're out to make a buck. I'm not even saying that they are knowingly pushing harmful drugs on an unsuspecting public only to line their own pockets - I'm sure most of them believe in their products.
But...
My best friend is a nurse and I know several other people in the medical profession, and I have heard some personal accounts of drug company representatives doing the following:
- Giving "luncheons" for a "Continuing Education Programs" on certain drugs to doctors (even the nurses and techs are invited) at the most expensive restaurants.
- Giving out other gifts to doctors just for allowing them to leave samples of their drugs.
- Giving physicians free trips and monetary "incentives" for giving out a certain "quota" of prescriptions to their drugs.
- Asking doctors to prescribe a drug and then fill out a nominal questionnaire once a week for a few weeks and then giving them as much as $10,000 for doing so.
- Lobbying congress and spending huge amounts of their billion dollar profits on passing legislation that promotes their "cause".
- Writing PDRs (physician's desk reference) (these are put out by the pharmaceutical companies, not by the AMA) to "slant" information about what drugs should be prescribed for which symptoms.
- Working hand-in-glove with the FDA and basically policing themselves when in comes to warning labels and such.
This last one is harder to prove, but the proof can be self evident when we look at the recent problems that have surfaced with Vioxx and other pain medications.
My friend, a nurse, works in a psychiatric hospital. The doctor she works with noticed that the children he was treating with Risidol (or maybe it was Celexor (SP?) - I can't remember which one she told me about) were showing prolonged QT waves on their EKGs and repeatedly reported this to the drug company. The drug company kept denying it for over a year until the preponderance of this evidence became overwhelming and doctors petitioned the FDA to require "black box" warnings on this drug.
Taking all of the above into account, it will be a cold day in h*ll before I blithely allow a doctor to prescribe *any* medications to me that I don't *thoroughly* investigate beforehand taking.
My experiences with Neurontin and Effexor were so harrowing that I would have to be facing *death* before I agreed to take any long-term medications. I was *NOT TOLD BEFOREHAND* that there were any side effects or withdrawal problems associated with these drugs. My doctor is very diligent and I don't think he was being ingenuous in prescribing these drugs - I just don't think the drug companies are being very "up front" in their warnings. They want to sell their products, of course they're not going to warn people not to take them.
Yes, I should have "weaned" myself off the meds I was taking (it was extremely stupid not to do so) and I probably should have been hospitalized while doing so. However, I lost my job and along with it my insurance. The medications I was taking cost several *thousands* of dollars a month and without a job there was no way I could afford that. I seriously doubt that it cost the drug companies thousands of dollars to produce these drugs even if you factor in the costs of research and development, but nobody was willing to give me a discount on the medications I needed to continue with in order to prevent a possible catastrophic withdrawal.
Oh my, here I am on this darned soapbox again. Sorry Howard. I know you know much more about this subject than I do, I didn't mean to preach!
Hugs,
CatNipped
Howard Berkowitz - 28 Dec 2004 03:04 GMT > <snipped lots of good pharmacological information> > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > profession, and I have heard some personal accounts of drug company > representatives doing the following: [snipped any number of questionable marketing practices by drug companies]
Trust me. I suspect I've seen worse abuses than in your whole list. I've left a couple of corrections.
> - Writing PDRs (physician's desk reference) (these are put out by the > pharmaceutical companies, not by the AMA) to "slant" information about > what > drugs should be prescribed for which symptoms. The AMA doesn't write any drug guidelines, and it's often a controversial organization. PDR descriptions of drugs are EXACT copies of the "prescriber's instructions" that are approved word-for-word as part of the FDA process of approving a New Drug Application. In many cases, the FDA may require, based on field experience, the PDR to contain a "black-bordered" warning of potential dangers, and when such a finding is made, the FDA requires the manufacturer to send out "Dear Doctor" letters to every physician.
> - Working hand-in-glove with the FDA and basically policing themselves > when > in comes to warning labels and such. I'm not sure of your point about working hand-in-glove with the FDA. Yes, the manufacturers write the label text, and then that's reviewed by an independent panel (i.e., not all FDA employees) as part of the drug approval process. Physicians often use other drug references than the PDR, because the PDR material is often written, or heavily edited, by lawyers. It takes quite an amount of background to understand the risk profile given in a PDR writeup, because those writeups tend to overstate possible dangers to avoid liability. The PDR is usually the last of several references I use when I need drug information.
The process of drug approval is complex, and, for good reasons of balancing perfect safety against getting out potentially good drugs, cannot be a perfect process. If you are interested, I can go into more detail, but, in general terms, even a drug for a common disease will have been tested, at best, in a few thousand patients before release. The FDA runs a "Phase IV Postmarketing Surveillance" program after drugs are in general use, where they may then be used in millions of patients. Postmarketing surveillance depends on physicians voluntarily reporting adverse drug effects to the FDA, and not every practitioner does this.
As a result, some side effects only show up after a drug has been in use for some time, and has been given in the hundreds of millions of doses (or more). My favorite example is the antihistamine Seldane, which was considered so safe that there had been a preliminary recommendation to allow it to be sold over the counter, without prescription. Just before the authorization was given, a scientific paper came out that established it could cause a rare but fatal disorder of heartbeat, torsade de pointes. Since it was not the only drug for its purpose, it was immediately pulled and never returned.
Other drugs, after being banned, may return for good reason and under strict control. Thalidomide, for example, is extremely useful in leprosy and a wide range of immune system disorders -- these applications were not thought of at the time of its initial introduction. Even after the major incidents with it, it was still used experimentally for leprosy, and the clues on the other applications came from understanding how it helped. The molecule it affects was probably not known at the time it was proposed.
All drug prescribing is a balance between risk and reward; no drug is completely safe. Penicillin is about the safest antibiotic known -- but if it had first been tried in guinea pigs, rather than people, it would never have gone into clinical use -- it kills guinea pigs, and ONLY guinea pigs among mammals, very quickly.
> This last one is harder to prove, but the proof can be self evident when > we > look at the recent problems that have surfaced with Vioxx and other pain > medications. It's often less clear-cut than it might seem. I have some friends, a married couple where he is a physician and she is a medical informatics specialist, as I am. She has a variety of painful conditions, and VIoxx is the _only_ drug that gives her a reasonable quality of life. Both consider it a reasonable tradeoff, if it were still available, to make an informed decision to use Vioxx. I have discussed this with them and I think their reasoning is sound.
There are other drugs that are vastly more toxic than Vioxx, and used in conditions where there are no alternatives.
If you really want to see me go ballistic, get me started on both nonprescription drug advertising, and even more on direct-to-consumer prescription drug advertising.
> My friend, a nurse, works in a psychiatric hospital. The doctor she > works [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > preponderance of this evidence became overwhelming and doctors petitioned > the FDA to require "black box" warnings on this drug. I'm not specifically familiar with this drug effect. I am, however, fairly familiar with electrocardiology. QT prolongation gets caused by many things, and isn't a guarantee of danger. It calls for closer monitoring of the ECG in patients, and perhaps discontinuing a less than critical drug in patients with known heart disease.
> Taking all of the above into account, it will be a cold day in h*ll > before I > blithely allow a doctor to prescribe *any* medications to me that I don't > *thoroughly* investigate beforehand taking. I have no good answer. No drug is prescribed for me that either I don't already understand on a professional level, or that I go into a detailed analysis. I am hesitatingly taking one drug, but am changing physicians because I've lost confidence -- bluntly, I think I know pharmacology, at least in the areas relevant to me, better than he does.
Getting to that level of knowledge, however, took many years of study, which never stops. At some point, researching a drug's risks and benefits calls either for your trusting other sources, or having a significant scientific background -- emphatically including biostatistics -- to be able to read the original papers and form your own opinion.
> My experiences with Neurontin and Effexor were so harrowing that I would > have to be facing *death* before I agreed to take any long-term [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > problems associated with these drugs. My doctor is very diligent and I > don't think he was being ingenuous in prescribing these drugs I hate to disagree, but a doctor should know, without product-specific warning, that abruptly stopping ANY anticonvulsant is dangerous. If you look in the most common textbook of pharmacology, _Goodman & Gilman's The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics_, usually studied in the second year of medical school, this is a basic warning for the class.
There would be less strong general caution in abruptly stopping a serotonin/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor like Effexor. I personally know of people that have only been helped by Effexor, and others that have had intolerable side effects. In one case, a physician prescribed it for a friend, and when she told me, it took several minutes for me to stop screaming threats at her physician, luckily 3000 miles away. It wasn't so much that Effexor wasn't an appropriate drug for her condition, but that she had other diseases, and took other drugs with which Effexor could have lethal side effects. In that case, if the doctor understood the pharmacology of Effexor well enough to prescribe it, the potential interactions should have been BLATANTLY obvious without a specific warning. She was the first person I knew that took it, and I did need to look up its mechanism of action. I was screaming after reading about a paragraph.
> Yes, I should have "weaned" myself off the meds I was taking (it was > extremely stupid not to do so) and I probably should have been [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > medications I was taking cost several *thousands* of dollars a month and > without a job there was no way I could afford that. Understood fully. If I didn't get a number of drugs through being in a long-term clinical research program, I'd be facing the same coverage problem. Luckily, for the ones not supplied there, I generally know the costs and discuss alternatives with the prescriber. You might be surprised that relatively few physicians know the retail price of the drugs they describe.
I think a fair argument could be made that if you showed up at an emergency room and explained you had had an anticonvulsant stopped suddenly, you might be hospitalized on the spot under US law for unstable emergency patients.
>I seriously doubt > that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with > in order to prevent a possible catastrophic withdrawal. Well, there are several things going on here. The dirtiest secret is that most major drug companies spend more on marketing than R&D. The sales budget might be 25-30%, where the research might be 15-20%.
Economics are tricky. In developing a new drug, the cost exposure is on the front end involving clinical trials. Many experimental drugs fail at that phase.
The incremental manufacturing cost of making each successive pill is quite low, but the economic model requires the company to recover its front-end investment. A significant cost also built into the retail price is liability reserves.
It's frustrating that there are more potential solutions to general healthcare economics in the US, than there are to the specific issues of drug cost. Reimportation isn't the answer. Somehow, there needs to be a balance among real development costs, commercial viability, policies in multiple countries, the costs of liability, and, last but definitely not least, realistic expectations. There are no completely safe drugs, and there never will be a pill to cure everything.
To get more on topic, the safety and economics are legitimately different for cats. When Clifford (RB) developed bladder cancer, I researched the options extensively. Had he been a human, there's almost no question he could have been cured by surgery, but no veterinarian would subject a cat to an artificial external bladder. He might have had a research-level chance were he a dog, as there was active work in laser treatment of dye-sensitized canine bladder tumors.
The veterinary oncologists, however, suggested the situation was not without hope. They explained that they had a chemotherapy regimen that had about a 30% chance of putting the disease into remission. He was 17 1/2, but extremely active.
When I heard of the main chemotherapeutic drug proposed, cisplatin, my immediate reaction was thinking of euthanasia -- because if _I_ had a cancer that could only be treated with cisplatin, I would probably ask for comfort measures only -- the side effects in humans tend to be horrible. Veterinarians I trusted, however, assured me that cats tolerate it with mild discomfort at the worst.
Unfortunately, the disease was too far advanced, when discovered, to be able to start a main chemotherapy regimen in time to try to give him a couple of good years.
CatNipped - 28 Dec 2004 04:05 GMT > I'm not sure of your point about working hand-in-glove with the FDA. > Yes, the manufacturers write the label text, and then that's reviewed by [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > possible dangers to avoid liability. The PDR is usually the last of > several references I use when I need drug information. Forgive me, I'm getting most of this second-hand from my friend and have most probably mixed up information on procedures. I think she was talking about the drug companies "policing themselves" and probable pay-offs to the FDA - pure speculation, I'm sure. To give you a better insight into her beliefs, I once asked her how she remains so healthy and her answer was, "Easy, I *never* go to the doctor. It's their *business* to treat you, it's how they make their money. If they can't find anything wrong with you they're losing business, so of course they're going to find something wrong with you. I find that most 'symptons' you ever experience will go away by themselves if you just wait it out!" Did I mention that she's a bit cynical about her profession? I don't propose adopting her philosophy - she has been lucky enough to not ever have anything *really* wrong with her health.
<snipped more very informative stuff>
> If you really want to see me go ballistic, get me started on both > nonprescription drug advertising, and even more on direct-to-consumer > prescription drug advertising. Yeah, I cringe every time I hear, "Ask your doctor if xxxxx is right for you!"
> I have no good answer. No drug is prescribed for me that either I don't > already understand on a professional level, or that I go into a detailed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > biostatistics -- to be able to read the original papers and form your > own opinion. I'll never, ever get to that point, my eyes glaze over after only a few minutes of trying to wade through medical terminology. My only answer is what I stated before, I would have to be facing death before I could be convinced to take *any* medications again. Even if my doctor told me it would vastly improve my quality of life, even if I were in even more constant pain than I'm already in - that's how badly I was burned by the Neurontin and Effexor withdrawals.
To specify... I was having cold sweats immediately followed by hot flashes lasting just minutes and just minutes apart (as if someone where readjusting the thermostat every 2 minutes from freezing to sweltering), tremors, visual and auditory halucinations, physical buzzing that felt like electrical shocks, buzzing in my ears, panic attacks, swelling in my arms and legs, insomnia, nausea and vomiting, and uncontrollable weeping. I ended up in the hospital ER, dehydrated to the point that it took 21 sticks before they could find a vein in which to administer the saline, after 8 days of continued vomiting and being unable to keep even a drop of water down. From what I've read, the withdrawals I suffered were worse than the withdrawals from heroine. So I'm sure you can understand why I am so mad about these drugs being given to me.
> I hate to disagree, but a doctor should know, without product-specific > warning, that abruptly stopping ANY anticonvulsant is dangerous. If you > look in the most common textbook of pharmacology, _Goodman & Gilman's > The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics_, usually studied in the > second year of medical school, this is a basic warning for the class. Let me clarify what I wrote before. My doctor *DID* tell me not to abruptly stop the Neurontin. But he told me that after I had already been taking it for over two years. He didn't tell me *before* I started taking it that it could possibly be fatal to abruptly stop it. He also told me that I shouldn't stop taking it at all. When I told him I couldn't afford it he just looked at me and said, "Well, you *need* to take it." I honestly don't think he could comprehend the fact that some people might not be able to afford even something they *need*.
> There would be less strong general caution in abruptly stopping a > serotonin/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor like Effexor. I personally > know of people that have only been helped by Effexor, and others that > have had intolerable side effects. Actually, from anecdotal reports of quite a number of other users of Effexor on the 'net, the withdrawal effects from that are even worse than from the Neurontin. I was withdrawing from both at the same time - plus Wellbutrin, Cenestin (HRT), and Maxide.
<snipped still more good information>
> I think a fair argument could be made that if you showed up at an > emergency room and explained you had had an anticonvulsant stopped > suddenly, you might be hospitalized on the spot under US law for > unstable emergency patients. Actually, I told the doctors at the ER that I was suffering from withdrawals from all of the above but they didn't think that's what was wrong with me. They just diagnosed me as having a stomach virus (I don't know of *ANY* stomach virus that lasts for 8 days and causes all the symptoms I listed above), gave me a liter of fluids, and sent me home 6 hours later. To tell the truth though, even if they had admitted that it was withdrawal from the meds, I probably would not have let them put me back on them because I thought that after 8 days I was over the worst of the withdrawals (I was wrong, but I didn't know that then - the withdrawal symptoms lasted for more than 3 months, sometimes coming over me just as bad as the first few days, but they *did* lessen over time, and I'm glad now that it's over with).
<more snippage>
> Unfortunately, the disease was too far advanced, when discovered, to be > able to start a main chemotherapy regimen in time to try to give him a > couple of good years. I'm sorry to hear about Clifford. I'm glad that veterinary science is advancing, but it's still too slow to help some of our dearest furkids.
Hugs,
CatNipped
Howard Berkowitz - 28 Dec 2004 04:37 GMT > > If you really want to see me go ballistic, get me started on both > > nonprescription drug advertising, and even more on direct-to-consumer > > prescription drug advertising. > > Yeah, I cringe every time I hear, "Ask your doctor if xxxxx is right for > you!" You can get me going fairly well even when they are talking about nonprescription pain relievers: aspirin, acetaminophen (paracetamol), ibuprofen, and naproxen. Each one has strengths and weaknesses, and I personally tend to keep three on hand, to use for different things.
Aspirin: cheapest, has cardioprotective effects in low doses, can be moderately rough on the stomach (doesn't bother me), has anti-inflammatory effects (although often in high doses to be used with caution), increases bleeding tendency, unsafe in children under 14 without medical clearance. Acetaminophen: still inexpensive, probably best for headache, no anti-inflammatory effect (only works on pain), easiest on the stomach, least likely to trigger asthma. More and more evidence it MUST NOT be taken with alcohol, or by people who have been moderate to heavy drinkers. Ibuprofen: more expensive than aspirin or ibuprofen. As with naproxen, best for menstrual cramps. Not anti-inflammatory at the over- the-counter dose, but at double that dose -- generally safe if you know your liver and kidneys are OK. Naproxen: more expensive than ibuprofen. Needs to be taken less often. Anti-inflammatory at over-the-counter dose, and probably a little more effective than ibuprofen. Prescription only in Canada -- not sure about other countries outside the US.
> I'll never, ever get to that point, my eyes glaze over after only a few > minutes of trying to wade through medical terminology. My only answer is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > constant pain than I'm already in - that's how badly I was burned by the > Neurontin and Effexor withdrawals. And yet might it have been much better had it been possible to taper them, especially the Neurontin? I wouldn't be surprised if the additional dose to taper it wouldn't have been cheaper than the ER visit.
> To specify... I was having cold sweats immediately followed by hot > flashes [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > from heroine. So I'm sure you can understand why I am so mad about these > drugs being given to me. Well, there are two kinds of addiction, psychological and physiological. Patients who were given narcotics for pain, and developed physiological but no psychological addiction -- preventing that does involve knowledgeable prescribing, and sometimes, counterintuitively, taking the drug whether you think you need it or not -- tend not to have a terribly bad time. Nicotine physiological withdrawal is considerably worse. Heroin has a bad reputation because it's often used by people prone to psychological addiction, but, used medically as in Britain, withdrawal is no worse than morphine.
Barbiturate abuse is now rare, but withdrawal is so dangerous it should never be attempted outside a hospital. There are several reasons here, and do remember that some barbiturates are used (and rarely abused) as anticonvulsants.
> > I hate to disagree, but a doctor should know, without product-specific > > warning, that abruptly stopping ANY anticonvulsant is dangerous. If you [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > think he could comprehend the fact that some people might not be able to > afford even something they *need*. Not understanding the economics is a SIGNIFICANT problem for US physicians.
> > There would be less strong general caution in abruptly stopping a > > serotonin/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor like Effexor. I personally [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the > Neurontin. I don't doubt that some people have that experience, but I don't have the clear pharmacological reasons there would be with anticonvulsants. I'd have to research the literature.
>I was withdrawing from both at the same time - plus > Wellbutrin, > Cenestin (HRT), and Maxide. Aha! Several things added. I'm skeptical about the advisability of giving Wellbutrin and Effexor together -- they are similar enough pharmacologically that I'd be surprised if there was a major clinical advantage. It's sometimes appropriate to use multiple antidepressants, but that sounds like an odd combination.
It's entirely possible that your fluid balance was thoroughly screwed up if you stopped Maxzide. Your salt and fluid balance could be thoroughly confused, and, if you took longer to get your potassium back than your sodium, that could explain nausea.
> Actually, I told the doctors at the ER that I was suffering from > withdrawals > from all of the above but they didn't think that's what was wrong with > me. It can be hard, without a lot of background, to argue with ER staff.
> They just diagnosed me as having a stomach virus (I don't know of *ANY* > stomach virus that lasts for 8 days and causes all the symptoms I listed > above), gave me a liter of fluids, and sent me home 6 hours later. I have never had a gastrointestinal upset sufficient to take me to the ER where I didn't need at least 3 or 4, and often many more liters of fluid. One liter? Why bother?
To
> tell > the truth though, even if they had admitted that it was withdrawal from [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > days, > but they *did* lessen over time, and I'm glad now that it's over with). Simplifying a lot, different parts of your nervous system need different times to clear an anticonvulsant. It's possible that if it had been tapered over (guessing) 2-3 weeks, you wouldn't have had the later symptoms.
> <more snippage> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm sorry to hear about Clifford. I'm glad that veterinary science is > advancing, but it's still too slow to help some of our dearest furkids. It was a very sad and mixed situation. Technically, he was a geriatric cat, but, up to the time he started having symptoms, he was still running into my office, leaping to the top of a bookcase, howling at the circular light fixture, and running out -- I think it was his wolf impression. He just didn't act like an old cat, and I felt it right to be aggressive. On the final night, he and I had a long, nose-to-nose talk, and I told him it was all right to do whatever he felt right. To my surprise, he chose to be alone to die, but I'm convinced he didn't want me to go through that. I'm reasonably sure that it was a peaceful death.
His unwilling arranged bride, Chatterley, had a much longer decline, living to 14 but having obvious problems for a couple of years. The best guess was a slow-growing brain tumor. While she needed more and more nursing care, she didn't seem in pain and still was affectionate -- she died in my arms, and it was important to her that I be there. Unfortunately, when she collapsed, dying about 9 hours later, there was an extreme sleet storm in progress, and she hated cars. I chose not to make a terrifying trip to the ER her last memory, although I looked in vain through the drugs I had to see if I had anything that could be used reliably to euthanize her -- but I just didn't have an appropriate drug.
Irulan - 28 Dec 2004 00:50 GMT damn, my doctor wants to put me on this. I am a diabetic (have been since age 9) and I think I am finally getting some neuropathic pain in myh lower limbs. I have a friend who has MS and started taking this for some pain she was experiencing and she started to lose muscle control. She kept falling until she finally stopped taking the medication. So, I am hesitant to take it. I can hardly walk long distances because of the leg/feet pain I get when I do walk, but I am really thinking twice about going on this medication.
::sigh::
 Signature Irulan from the stars we come to the stars we return from now until the end of time
> >> Neurontin (generic name gabapentin) isn't quite a major breakthrough [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > CatNipped Jeanne Hedge - 28 Dec 2004 01:10 GMT >damn, my doctor wants to put me on this. I am a diabetic (have been since >age 9) and I think I am finally getting some neuropathic pain in myh lower [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I do walk, but I am really thinking twice about going on this medication. >::sigh:: This entire discussion of Neurontin is disturbing to me as my dad's been taking it for a while now (diabetic neuropathy in his legs). As far as I can tell, he's not had any trouble with pain, loss of muscle control, lost balance or falling due to his medication. To the contrary, he's gotten better since he's been on it.
YMMV
Jeanne Hedge, as directed by Natasha
============ http://www.jhedge.com
Howard Berkowitz - 28 Dec 2004 01:52 GMT > >damn, my doctor wants to put me on this. I am a diabetic (have been > >since [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > control, lost balance or falling due to his medication. To the > contrary, he's gotten better since he's been on it. Of the people I know that actually take Neurontin, most have had benefits and one had no effect. They have reported side effects of sedation and weight gain. Physician friends speak very highly of it -- and I should note that some of these were worried about Vioxx in 2000.
If I had an indication for it. I wouldn't hesitate to take it, being aware of the possible side effects. Yes, I might prefer to take the newer Lyrica, although I'd want to study the literature in more detail. Cost might be a factor, and a reasonable approach might be to start with Neurontin and go to Lyrica only if there are problems.
Dee - 29 Dec 2004 04:56 GMT > This entire discussion of Neurontin is disturbing to me as my dad's > been taking it for a while now (diabetic neuropathy in his legs). As > far as I can tell, he's not had any trouble with pain, loss of muscle > control, lost balance or falling due to his medication. To the > contrary, he's gotten better since he's been on it. No medication is without side effects. My cat h0p was nearly dead and is permanently liver damaged from the phenobarbital he'd been taking for his seizures. He was prescribed gabapentin two years ago and underwent an amazing improvement within days.
Dee
Howard Berkowitz - 28 Dec 2004 01:48 GMT > damn, my doctor wants to put me on this. I am a diabetic (have been since > age 9) and I think I am finally getting some neuropathic pain in myh [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I do walk, but I am really thinking twice about going on this medication. > ::sigh:: While there's a good deal of positive experience with Neurontin (gabapentin) in diabetic neuropathic pain, its use is an off-label indication. Two drugs were approved in 2004 with specific indications for diabetic neuropathy, Cymbalta(duloxetine) and Lyrica (Pregabalin). You might want to discuss these with your doctor.
Duloxetine is not an anticonvulsant, but an antidepressant. Certain "first-generation" tricyclic antidepressants such as amitriptyline (Elavil) are useful in a variety of chronic pain conditions. These drugs affect two kinds of neurotransmitters, serotonin and norepinephrine. The "second generation", typified by fluoxetine (Prozac), selectively affect only serotonin. A new group, perhaps not a new generation, affects both neurotransmitters, but by a different mechanism than the tricyclics. Duloxetine is in this group. It is also a clinically effective antidepressant, if that's a consideration.
Pregabalin is closely related to gabapentin, but, in oversimplified terms, is "purer" -- both drugs affect the same neurotransmitter pathway (GABA [1]), but both need to undergo conversion in the body to affect the pathway. Pregabalin is "further along" that pathway, and has a much lower dose than gabapentin. It's hypothesized that the lower active dose, and the improved molecule, may have a decreased incidence of side effects over gabapentin. Yes, it's also a Pfizer drug, and gabapentin is close to going generic where this new one is not.
[1] gamma aminobutyric acid. Did you really want to know? Now do you understand why scientists call it GABA?
Marina - 24 Dec 2004 06:59 GMT > This year Misty had to go to RadioCat for hyperthyroidism treatment, > George had another mast cell tumor removed, we lost little Ceili to > cancer, and we got a new kitten named Ivy - and so life goes on. Happy > Holidays to you and yours. So sorry about your loss and all the kitty illness. We'll be purring for a better year 2005 for h0p and the gang.
 Signature Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki
polonca12000 - 24 Dec 2004 11:06 GMT Continued purrs and best wishes,
 Signature Polonca & Soncek
> I realize I haven't posted any updates, but I don't have much to > tell. She went back to TED today and they took a bunch (!) of blood > to test her for various things. <snip
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