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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / July 2009Michael Jackson
I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. He wanted to be white, Why? > I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. > He wanted to be white, Why? I think that was the LEAST of his problems! Although I agree with you - there was a time when, among black "society" (meaning social climbers - African-Americans had them, too) light skin was somehow considered superior. (Probably a legacy from the Louisiana "Creoles".) But certainly during Jackson's lifetime there have been many truly outstanding black entertainers who did not feel any need to deny their heritage. >> He wanted to be white, Why? Because white people have a whole lot more status and privilege in our society than black people do. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but black/white relations in the US has a deeply damaged history. It started with slavery, after all. And the problems didn't end the minute slavery was declared unequal. They didn't end when African Americans won the vote, or integrated schools and lunch counters. They haven't even ended now that our president is a black man. Obviously things have improved a great deal, but we do not have equality here. This is not to say that MJ's behavior was reasonable. I'm sure he had a lot of psychological problems that came from other things besides racism, such as his not getting to have a childhood when he was an actual child, and then trying to have one for the rest of his life. Combine all that with having a vast fortune and, well, there's an opportunity for him to do a whole lot of damage. Which he did, literally. But I'm just trying to answer your specific question as to why he wanted to be white. From where I sit, that one's obvious. In the end, though, he made himself whiter than most people of European descent. He hardly looked human to me. > I think that was the LEAST of his problems! Although I agree with you - > there was a time when, among black "society" (meaning social climbers - > African-Americans had them, too) light skin was somehow considered > superior. This is still true in a lot of ways. > certainly during Jackson's lifetime there have been many truly > outstanding black entertainers who did not feel any need to deny their > heritage. As I said, Jackson had a host of problems and racism was only part of it.  SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. >I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. >He wanted to be white, Why? why is it important to you? >>I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. >>He wanted to be white, Why? > why is it important to you? Because it is. >>>I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. >>>He wanted to be white, Why? >> why is it important to you? >> >Because I'm a racist fuckwit. Whatever. >>>>I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. >>>>He wanted to be white, Why? >>> why is it important to you? >>> >>Because I'm a racist fuckwit> Why are you? Who rold you to be this way? You've learnt it from others. >>I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. >>He wanted to be white, Why? > why is it important to you? Are you white? I guess yes. Don't start me on this AZ wrote: >>I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. >>He wanted to be white, Why? > why is it important to you? Maybe she's just curious. Something doesn't have to be "important" to a person in order to ask a question about it. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > AZ wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Maybe she's just curious. Something doesn't have to be "important" to > a person in order to ask a question about it. No, I'm not being curious. I am stating a fact that Michael Jackson had lots of operations to make him seem white and why? > No, I'm not being curious. I am stating a fact that Michael Jackson had > lots of operations to make him seem white and why? I don't think anyone can dispute that he was a seriously disturbed man. >> AZ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No, I'm not being curious. I am stating a fact that Michael Jackson had > lots of operations to make him seem white and why? I don't really know if the entire impetus behind the operations was to make him appear white, although that appears to be part of it. There's also the insistant encouragement so many people seem to feel to 'improve' themselves - from the person next door who hides the gray with hair dye to the celebrities who can afford vast amounts of plastic surgery - and find surgeons willing to perform it. Jackson may have believed at some level that 'improve' meant 'more white', but there's also the story that he was teased by his father about his nose (although most of us grow out of the tendency to believe that stuff from our nearest and dearest, in some ways Jackson never seemed to mature). But above and beyond any attempt to take on some of the characteristics of another race, or to make a nose his father might approve, Jackson was probably like many other people and tended to believe that he should aim for youthful perfection in his appearance, and 'natural' is never perfect. Look at poor Farah Fawcett - never as famous as Jackson, but she maintained the hairstyle that made her famous and a nose that was almost as badly destroyed at Jacksons throughout her life! Jackson may have gone to more extremes than most, and some of the changes he chose are more obvious because of his race, but his attempts to perfect his appearance and maintain a tight youthful face are actually fairly commonplace in some circles. When I'm staying somewhere with cable TV, I sometimes watch these makeover shows. Sometimes there really are things that are noticeably 'different' - like a receding chin. But *every* *single* *time* there's breast implants, and almost always a nose job, even though the breasts and nose look just fine to me. People with lots of money, a position in the public eye, and a job that requires at least the appearance of youth and style have been doing these kinds of makeovers for years, and some of them appear to be addicted to the process. There is or was one woman - I think she's usually describes as a 'socialite' (not a singer or performer) who got someone to try to turn her into a kind of human cat. Google "Jocelyn Wildenstein" There's a lot of strange people out there. Cheryl Cheryl >>> AZ wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > his appearance and maintain a tight youthful face are actually fairly > commonplace in some circle. His nose got to look, well, not quite right but he refused to admit plastic surgery and he was once black. He tried to be white, and that made me sad, like it was better to be white. > His nose got to look, well, not quite right but he refused to admit plastic > surgery and he was once black. He tried to be white, and that made me sad, > like it was better to be white. I think, in the part of the entertainment world where the "Jackson Five" performed when he was young, that may have been a perceived "fact". Certainly the discrimination many black entertainers encountered, in terms of finding overnight accommodation "on the road", was well known. (Even Las Vegas "headliners" were often not allowed to stay in the hotel-casinos where they were performing.) I learned from the autobiography of more than one female entertainer that, before the Civil Rights Movement, often the only place they could find to sleep in some cities was a local brothel (hopefully with a door they could lock from the inside). >> His nose got to look, well, not quite right but he refused to >> admit plastic surgery and he was once black. He tried to be [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > place they could find to sleep in some cities was a local brothel > (hopefully with a door they could lock from the inside). At least get your timeline right. Michael wasn't even born until 1960. I'm quite sure by the days of the Jackson Five, they could go pretty near anywhere they darn well pleased. Money is fairly color blind. Jo >>> His nose got to look, well, not quite right but he refused to admit >>> plastic surgery and he was once black. He tried to be white, and that [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Jo They didn't have money when they started out. I would be willing to be that there are still places where black people are told "no vacancy". Joy in this town i live in a black family , moved in 2 summers ago, well dressed, and nice cars, seems to be upper midddle class, they were here less than four months, not sure what happened, but from comments, bigots are alive and practicing in middle america, Lee >>>> His nose got to look, well, not quite right but he refused to admit >>>> plastic surgery and he was once black. He tried to be white, and that [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Joy > "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evgmsop@earthlink.net> wrote in >> I think, in the part of the entertainment world where the "Jackson >> Five" performed when he was young, that may have been a perceived [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> place they could find to sleep in some cities was a local brothel >> (hopefully with a door they could lock from the inside). > At least get your timeline right. Michael wasn't even born until > 1960. I'm quite sure by the days of the Jackson Five, they could go > pretty near anywhere they darn well pleased. Just because discrimination had been made illegal by the 1970s, doesn't mean it didn't happen. People have been known to break the law now and then. And even if the Jackson 5 were allowed to stay in any hotel they chose, that does NOT mean they were treated equally to white performers. > Money is fairly color blind. More so now than 40 years ago, but even so, racism is still insidiously there. Prejudice barriers - whether about race, gender, or any other category of discrimination - are much more visible to the people who are behind them than to those who are in front of them. If you can't see bigotry, you probably aren't the target. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. >>> His nose got to look, well, not quite right but he refused to admit >>> plastic surgery and he was once black. He tried to be white, and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Jo You're not black, are you? I, too, thought that discrimination was a thing of the past, until some of my black friends set me straight. Things are much better, now, than they were before the Reverend King's crusading, but true "equality" is still more perceived (by well-meaning whites) than actual. >>>> His nose got to look, well, not quite right but he refused to >>>> admit plastic surgery and he was once black. He tried to be [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Reverend King's crusading, but true "equality" is still more > perceived (by well-meaning whites) than actual. I was just trying to point out that Michael grew up in the world since MLK's crusading (if you want to give him all the credit). What happened before the civil rights movement also happened before he was ever born. Believe it or not, I can have an opinion without being black. As long as people perceive differences between themselves and others there will be discrimination. That doesn't mean things haven't changed over time. Jo >>>>> His nose got to look, well, not quite right but he refused to admit >>>>> plastic surgery and he was once black. He tried to be white, and that [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Jo I've mentioned this before and it won't be the last time, I'm sure. Back in the 1980s I worked with a black woman, Clarissa. She and I used to go out to lunch together frequently. One day she wanted to go buy an alarm clock so we went to Target to go shopping on our lunch hour. She found a new clock and then we went to the lunch counter in the store to grab a burger before heading back to the office. The woman working behind the counter was black. She took Clarissa's order and then pointedly ignored me. Clarissa looked at me; I shrugged. She spoke up, "Aren't you going to take my sister's order, too?" The woman behind the counter practically fell all over herself, "Oh! I'm sorry! What can I get for you?" As we walked with our food to a table Clarissa asked me, "Does that happen to you often?" Yes, it does. Black people are just as likely to descriminate as people of any other race. Jill . Black people are just as likely to descriminate as people of > any other race. A couple of weeks back I was getting a cab and the driver expressed his opinion of the governments current immigration policy in terms that would have not displeased the BNP- I had to ask where he was from- Bangladesh. A few days back I was about the cross the road and this guy on a pushbike going very fast was about the jump the lights and he shouted at a woman on the other side of the road who was about to step forward: "Get out of my way b***h!" Her reply was "F*** you N****r!" Somewhat muffled by the fact she was wearing a niqab... It's totally possible for ethnic minorities to be bad - my downstairs neighbours who are Asian when they first moved in popped up to see Dave and told him he should be in a home because of his disability and anyway "You leave. This now Bengali house". One of their friends had an argument with Esther from upstairs and went up to apologise and told her they had to work together because they're black to get "the whites" out. We heard Esther's reply...in fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was heard in the USA! Why can't people just accept everyone else is also people? Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Jill wrote: > Black people are just as likely to descriminate as people of > any other race. Sure, you're right. Anyone can be bigoted. But, at least in this country (as well as many others, but I'll just speak about my own) black people don't have a lot of power over the various institutions that affect most of our lives. They don't get to determine who gets hired, who gets to live where, etc. We might have laws forbidding discrmination, but people still do it. It's a hard thing to prove. And anecdotal stories where a person of color owned a company and unfairly denied a job to a white person are statistically insignificant. I'm sure there are isolated incidents where the reverse situation happens, but they are not the norm. As a group, white people have more power to affect other people's lives than most other people (in the US). That's really what racism is - prejudice *plus power*. Anyone can call me "whitey" or "gringa" or whatever, but if they can't limit my opportunities in life, I don't call it "racism". SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > Jill wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > or whatever, but if they can't limit my opportunities in life, I > don't call it "racism". I don't accept the recent re-definition of racism as beliefs+power because that means treating people as members of a group rather than as individuals. Anti-racism efforts usually attempt to make people realize that members of different groups *are* individuals, and not all the same because they all have the same colour skin or speak the same language. How can this kind of change go along with saying that people who belong to another group - the majority group - *aren't* individuals, they're all the same, and they've all got power and they're all racists? Anyone who makes a snap judgement about me based on anything - skin colour, appearance, sex etc etc - is prejudiced. If they politely keep their opinions to themselves, I don't know or care whether they are prejudiced against me. If they insult me by showing their ignorance, I'll deal with it as I do any other minor annoyance in life. And if they physically or financially harm me in any way, I'll deal with that through the law, regardless of their motivation. But they're prejudiced (racist, if they're using race or skin colour to go by) in all three situations, regardless of the relative social status of the groups we come from. To look at it any other way would be to move from individual to group responsibility, and I don't believe in group responsibility. We're all responsible for our actions. >> Jill wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > individual to group responsibility, and I don't believe in group > responsibility. We're all responsible for our actions. If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. Tweed > If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless you've experienced it? That must narrow the topics of conversation considerably! And you missed my main point - that it's treating people as individuals that's crucial in dealing with racism (and other prejudices), not lumping everyone together in a group based on their physical characteristics - whether it's white skin or black or something else entirely. And quite aside from the fact that a lot of other prejudices, or really, negative prejudices since pre-judgements can be either negative or positive follow exactly the same pattern as racism, I've certainly had people express the conviction that I can't belong to a group that I do because I don't exhibit the bad behaviour they associate with that group - by which method they rather naively revealed their prejudices against people like me. Being the target of prejudice isn't unusual. We've discussed in this group how people with visible disabilities are targeted. Cheryl >> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. > > Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless > you've experienced it. No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, >>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >> >> Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless >> you've experienced it. > > No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, Sorry, but that isn't true. Anyone can experience racism. Joy >>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>> >>> Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless >>> you've experienced it. >> >> No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, > Sorry, but that isn't true. Anyone can experience racism. Depends on the conditions of the particular culture one lives in. Maybe somewhere on earth there's a society where white people are systematically discriminated against. In which case, the white folks there would indeed be experiencing racism. However, Europeans (and their descendents, including the USA) have done a damn good job of colonizing most of the world - if not militarily, then economically at least, and certainly culturally - to the point where I have a hard time imagining where this society might exist. But it's not beyond the realm of possibility. I used to know a woman - white, born in the US but spent much of her childhood and early adulthood in China. She felt discriminated against because she was not Chinese. I don't doubt that this happened. But I don't know if that's a widespread problem, or just something that happened to her, so I'm not going to say there's a problem of racism against whites in China. There may be, I just don't know anything about it. The only thing I do feel comfortable saying is that a white person cannot experience systematic racism in the US. Prejudice, yes. We can all be the brunt of someone else's prejudices. I just don't think that's the same thing as racism. That maybe be a semantic thing, because if you've read any of my exchange with Cheryl P, one difference we have is that she and I define the word "racism" differently. So if you feel strongly that the word "racism" should be synonymous with "prejudice based on race", then yes, a white person can experience racism. I might say it differently, but it's the concept that counts. I use the word racism to mean "institutionalized discrimination based on race", which goes beyond an individual's attitudes and prejudices, and encompasses the ways that a society is structured to give one group of people privilege (ie, benefits, opportunities, allowable behaviors, etc) over another. The way our society is currently structured, white people have more privileges than non-white people. That doesn't mean that a person of color can't be a bigot. They just don't have an equal amount of power to enforce that bigotry that a white person has. Whatever word you prefer to use to refer to that doesn't matter to me, as long as we both recognize that there is a difference between individual racial bigotry and societal inequalities based on race. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. I wrote: > The only thing I do feel comfortable saying is that a white person > cannot experience systematic racism in the US. Actually, let me amend that a bit. Someone could actually be of European descent, but for whatever reason, they appear darker or have facial features that seem not to be white, in which case they might be perceived by others to be not-white, even though they are. That person might experience racism because others are treating them as though they're not white, with everything that goes with that. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > I wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > person might experience racism because others are treating them as > though they're not white, with everything that goes with that. "Racism" may not be the correct term, but I am still astonished at the degree of anti-Mexican feeling there seems to be, here in Arizona! (After all, once the Indians had been disinherited, the American Southwest was primarily SETTLED by Spanish-speaking people - it was we whites who took over THEIR territory.) > "Racism" may not be the correct term, but I am still astonished at the > degree of anti-Mexican feeling there seems to be, here in Arizona! > (After all, once the Indians had been disinherited, the American > Southwest was primarily SETTLED by Spanish-speaking people - it was we > whites who took over THEIR territory.) Some Mexicans living illegally in California have a saying, "We didn't cross the border - the border crossed us." (BTW, I would call discrimination against Mexicans racism, because most Mexicans are mixed-race - Spanish and Mayan, among others, and many do not have European heritage at all. Not that race is the only issue in that situation.) SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. i do have to disagree here, first, there are racisist, that behavoir and racisim, which is for lack of a better term institutional or culteral. DH has experienced this on more than one occasion, first when he worked in East St. Louis IL, mostly black and very anti white, one small example is he would go into chinese take outs, wait patiently in line and then get skipped over for the order taking process, until all the blacks and asians were waited o he had no hopee of getting food, first time it happened he left but then he really wanted to know if he was over sensitive or what, he tried getting food in several places and about eight percent followed this owners were blackk or asian. second time he worked in a building where the racial mix was about half and half... one day while he was working in the break room there was a conversation about a black politisian in East St. Lou is who DH had dealt with in the other job... he made positive comments about him saying his name in the process.. all 4 women at the table jumped him for the pronouncing of his name, one comment was you white people never get it right... problem is that DH said it same as the man did when he introduced himself... and yes they had the power to make him miserable or lose this job if they complained, so he simply didn't respond... we must understand that no person is imune from the evils of racisim, bigotry or abuse, and no person is aimune from develpoing these behavoirs as well, Lee > >>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. > >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > bigotry > and societal inequalities based on race. I know at work, if I talk to people of other ethnic groups the way they talk to each other, I would be out of a job and probably in jail. Lee, remember our friend who used to say, when she heard someone complain about being treated unfairly. She would say "Well, try being Blind, Black, a woman and over the age of 40." She never let it get her down but, it was a load to carry because of other peoples views. >i do have to disagree here, first, there are racisist, that behavoir and >racisim, which is for lack of a better term institutional or culteral. [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] >> bigotry >> and societal inequalities based on race. yes and i loved her, answer to what race are you... " why the human race of course" and then after a pause "... and yourself" >I know at work, if I talk to people of other ethnic groups the way they >talk to each other, I would be out of a job and probably in jail. Lee, [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] >>> bigotry >>> and societal inequalities based on race. I saw her do that in a hotel once when someone was very rude to her. She had the female version on the James Earl Jones voice. Could punctuate words. The man opened and closed his mouth a few times then, just walked away. > yes and i loved her, answer to what race are you... " why the human race > of course" and then after a pause "... and yourself" [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >>>> bigotry >>>> and societal inequalities based on race. nothing like a beatufil cultured voice to put a stupid person in their place, Lee >I saw her do that in a hotel once when someone was very rude to her. She >had the female version on the James Earl Jones voice. Could punctuate [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] >>>>> bigotry >>>>> and societal inequalities based on race. > i do have to disagree here, first, there are racisist, that behavoir and > racisim, which is for lack of a better term institutional or culteral. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > getting food in several places and about eight percent followed this owners > were blackk or asian. Forgive me for saying it, but could it perhaps be due to the "vibes" he himself was giving off? I have had a fair amount of experience dealing with African Americans in black neighborhoods, and have never had that kind of experience. But maybe it's because of my way of approaching strangers. The first time I visited Paris (France) I was apprehensive, because I'd heard all the urban legends about the "rude" Parisians. Oddly enough, although my French is almost non-existent, and my American accent is unmistakable, I NEVER (in several trips) encountered rudeness in Paris or anywhere else abroad. Quite the opposite, in fact - like the time in Paris when the film in my camera was not advancing as it should, and I went into a camera shop to see if they could fix it. The clerk spoke about as much English as I did French, but once we'd established that "Le film ne s'avance pas", she took the camera into the rear of the shop, established that all it needed was a new battery, and replaced it free of charge. (I bought a roll of film, just out of courtesy, but I would not have needed to.) Partly it's a cultural thing - white Americans tend to be too abrupt. They'll go into a store and demand (in English) "Do you have.... [whatever]?". European courtesy expects one to first greet the shopkeeper with "Bon jour" or "Guten Tag" (or however one says "good day" in their language), and "Please, do you speak English?" (preferably in their language, however poor your accent). Many Europeans DO speak some English, but it's polite to ASK first, not just assume that everyone does! Most people respond well to courtesy and respect, whatever issues they may have with others of your race or nationality. > >>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. > >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > bigotry > and societal inequalities based on race. Yes, I do understand the distinction. Joy > >>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. > >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > bigotry > and societal inequalities based on race. That was brilliant, Joyce. I could not have put it better myself. Racism is not the same as prejudice, racism is based on power and white people have more power than non-whites and especially white males. It is argued that white males are the most powerful people in the world. Tweed > That was brilliant, Joyce. I could not have put it better myself. Racism > is not the same as prejudice, racism is based on power and white people have > more power than non-whites and especially white males. It is argued that > white males are the most powerful people in the world. > > Tweed Wrongly argued, then. *I'm* more powerful than some white males, and I'm not very powerful at all in the grand scheme of things, or in any meaning of the word 'power'. Even different groups of people of the same skin colour have different amounts of power depending on who they are, how they are organized and all kinds of other factors. Cheryl >> That was brilliant, Joyce. I could not have put it better myself. >> Racism is not the same as prejudice, racism is based on power and white [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not very powerful at all in the grand scheme of things, or in any meaning > of the word 'power'. I invite you to explore that belief. Tweed >>> That was brilliant, Joyce. I could not have put it better myself. >>> Racism is not the same as prejudice, racism is based on power and white [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Tweed No need, I already have. I've even explored a good many beliefs I eventually decided I disagree with. I mean, it's not like this is the first time I've run into these claims and the philosophies they are based on. Cheryl >>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >> >> Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless >> you've experienced it. > > No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, Sorry Christina, but that is a ridiculous statement, *anyone* can experience racism. SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy, Bagheera & Shadow) Cats leave pawprints on your heart http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk >>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Sorry Christina, but that is a ridiculous statement, *anyone* can > experience racism. Anyone? Have you? You are male and I'm fairly sure you are white. Tell me about your experiences of racism towards yourself, I would be interested to know how it manifested itself. I'm not trying to be difficult or confrontational, I would just like to know if, to back up your statement that mine was ridiculous. you have experienced racism yourself. E.g have you ever been refused a job because you were white? Tweed > Anyone? Have you? You are male and I'm fairly sure you are white. Tell > me about your experiences of racism towards yourself, I would be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Tweed YES, I was refused a job because I wouldn't sleep with the black manager. YES. I've been delayed service at a store because the owner was Oriental and wouldn't serve me until all the Hispanics, Orientals, and Blacks (in that order) were served, although I was the third person in line. His response when I asked him why was that he didn't think that white folk really sewed their own clothes. Rob was in line to get an award (Army Air Medal) for Desert Storm. The Pilot and Co-Pilot got them, they were officers. The medic got one, he was black. Rob didn't get one. He had more flight hours in Desert Storm than anyone else in his unit. None of the white enlisted got their awards. All the minorities and officers got them. My daughter was the only tow headed member of her kindergarten class in Texas. The teacher, again a Hispanic, refused to fill out the forms needed to get Amanda tested for ADHD. She said that Amanda was just stupid and lazy. She filled out the same forms in 24 hours for a Hispanic kid. I was friends with the mom. I had to go into the main office and threaten to file a discrimination suit against the teacher and the school before the principal would talk to the teacher. Even then, the forms I gave her in August were given back to me at Thanksgiving. I had to stand over her while she marked them at random. The teacher told some of the parents there that all blonde white kids were morons. I'm not saying that there isn't racism towards minorities. I've seen it and been outspokenly disgusted by it myself. BUT, the swing is now going against whites, especially men. Look at TV channels in the states. BET (Black Entertainment Channel), WE (Women's Entertainment), Lifetime and Lifetime Movie Network (both oriented towards women), and so on. My mom taught me to look at the situation from the other person's angle. Turn it around. If those channels were WET (White Entertainment Channel) ME (Men's Entertainment), and Halftime and Halftime Movie Network (programming focused solely on men), would it be fair? Of course not. But that isn't the way we're taught to see the world now, is it? Pam S. I wasn't going to get into this but, I keep hearing ministers say "there is one race, the human race" this from the same people who a few years ago preached against ANY kind of mixed marriage. >> Anyone? Have you? You are male and I'm fairly sure you are white. Tell >> me about your experiences of racism towards yourself, I would be [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Pam S. > I wasn't going to get into this but, I keep hearing ministers say "there is > one race, the human race" this from the same people who a few years ago > preached against ANY kind of mixed marriage. People do change their opinions. Technically, there is only one human race - or to put it another way, there is too little genetic variation among humans for them to be categorised scientifically into any meaningful 'racial' categories. OTOH, quite recently historically, 'race' did not specifically refer to skin colour, it referred to any group of people with a lot in common. You could use it in 'English race' or 'race of musicians' (or other job or interest group). Cheryl I am glad they can change but there was almost hate speech against mixed marriages. Yes, I am glad people can change. >> I wasn't going to get into this but, I keep hearing ministers say "there >> is one race, the human race" this from the same people who a few years [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Cheryl > I wasn't going to get into this but, I keep hearing ministers say "there is > one race, the human race" this from the same people who a few years ago > preached against ANY kind of mixed marriage. Unfortunately, they still exist! (And are still milking TV audiences to support their "missions".) > I wasn't going to get into this but, I keep hearing ministers say "there is > one race, the human race" this from the same people who a few years ago > preached against ANY kind of mixed marriage. Heh, and now they're preaching in favor of *only* mixed marriages, if you know what I mean. :) SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. On Jul 8, 2:43 pm, bastXXXe...@sonic.net wrote: > > I wasn't going to get into this but, I keep hearing ministers say "there is > > one race, the human race" this from the same people who a few years ago [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. I have been seeing all manner of weirdness all week on tv with nary a break. I intend *never* ever again to comp;ain of the quality of any of those "reality" tv shows lately consisting of the daily childcare of *octo- offspring" on any channel whatsoever. I complained and look what happened. Unending, every channel-but-the-weather worseness, relieved solely by the Capital Independence festivities..... >> E.g have you ever been refused a job because you were white? > YES, I was refused a job because I wouldn't sleep with the black manager. Hmm. Sounds more like sex discrimination to me. I wonder if he would have treated a black or latina woman the same way? If so, it's not about race, it's about sexism, the pig. I'm willing to bet big bucks he would not have stipulated sex to a white *man* applying for the job! > YES. I've been delayed service at a store because the owner was Oriental > and wouldn't serve me until all the Hispanics, Orientals, and Blacks (in > that order) were served, although I was the third person in line. His > response when I asked him why was that he didn't think that white folk > really sewed their own clothes. This person sounds like a moron. I'm still not sure I'd call it racism, though, but there's been a lot of disagreement about word definitions. Whatever you call it, this isn't a systematic thing, it's an unfortunate and very unpleasant incident in one store. This is what I mean by "systematic": if you lived in a town where all the stores were owned by Asians, and none of them would wait on you because you were white, that would be racism (ie, systematic). You would be denied necessary options because of your race. Unless this store is the only place in town, you can always go elsewhere. Not to say that you shouldn't challenge him if you want to. There's no excuse for him treating you that way. I've boycotted stores where people are jerks, having nothing to do with race. You meet jerks everywhere. But for the sake of making a distinction, I wouldn't call your experience "racism", according to my definition of the word. (Which I am not alone in using, but I also know that many people use the term differently.) > Rob was in line to get an award (Army Air Medal) for Desert Storm. The > Pilot and Co-Pilot got them, they were officers. The medic got one, he was > black. Rob didn't get one. He had more flight hours in Desert Storm than > anyone else in his unit. None of the white enlisted got their awards. All > the minorities and officers got them. This sounds like politics run amok. I'm in favor of affirmative action, but some people just don't get what it's about, and they go overboard - or they use it as an excuse to vent their personal conflicts. Jeez, it's not like there were only so many awards to go around, were there? The fact that he didn't get one is just a slap in the face. Ugh, I'm sorry to hear that. > My daughter was the only tow headed member of her kindergarten class in > Texas. The teacher, again a Hispanic, refused to fill out the forms needed [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > she marked them at random. The teacher told some of the parents there that > all blonde white kids were morons. That is certainly unacceptable behavior! I *would* call that racism because you had limited power in that situation. It's not like the store, where you could say "f*** you" and leave. It's your daughter's school! Not acceptable at all. > I'm not saying that there isn't racism towards minorities. I've seen it and > been outspokenly disgusted by it myself. BUT, the swing is now going [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Entertainment), and Halftime and Halftime Movie Network (programming focused > solely on men), would it be fair? Of course not. Well, for one thing, there *is* a men's channel on cable called "Spike". But I would argue that, when BET was created, most TV programming in the US was geared toward white people because we are the majority, and therefore we spend the majority of the dollar$. So "White TV" was everywhere, it just wasn't called that because it didn't have to be. BET was formed in reaction to that. Maybe producers tried to get some black-oriented TV shows onto the major networks, and couldn't? I don't know how long BET has been around, but I think it even predates cable, so at least since the early 80s. Lots has changed since then, for sure, but TV in America still strikes me as being mostly directed toward white audiences. Sure, casts are more integrated now, but culturally speaking, the shows seem to me to be designed to appeal more to white people. If you don't believe this, imagine if most of the shows on TV were like "Martin" or "Living Single", maybe with one or two white characters thrown in. I have nothing against those shows, but the fact is, I don't really relate to them as well as to shows like "Lost" or "Cold Case". It's a cultural thing. I'd be bored with TV if most of what was on there was geared toward people of a different culture from mine. I do not agree at all that "the swing" has gone against whites. It's just that non-whites are demanding more for themselves now - which is not something that we grew up accustomed to dealing with. It's hard not to be the only show in town any more, to have to move over and make room for other people to get some of the goodies. When you're talking about limited resources, that does result in something of a loss for the dominant group, and that can be disconcerting. If one is accustomed to seeing mostly white faces on TV, then it can seem like "those people are taking over" if they have a few shows or a network or two. I think this skews people's perceptions in terms of how much power has actually been transferred. Doesn't seem like a whole lot has been, IMO. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. if we are going to look at american TV lets find us an intellegint white male in a commercial shall we, every one of them makes the man out to be stupid, or at least too needy to handle his own affairs, my and DH's life experiences are much closer to Pam's than you would beleive... a soilder in DH's unit charged the sgt with discrimination because he had to do grunt work and the whites didn't, fact was he was the lowest ranking soilder there, he and 3 whites got the work that befitted their rank, the next 4 up the line had done that work until promoted, it didn't matter that he lost, it didn't matter that the sgt charged was also black, and it didn't matter what it cost the gov't, it disrupted everything, for nothing, at the end he was overheard to say... that will teach whitey we have some powr to mess up their day anyway, Lee > >> E.g have you ever been refused a job because you were white? > [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > this skews people's perceptions in terms of how much power has actually > been transferred. Doesn't seem like a whole lot has been, IMO. >>>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Tweed Race and colour are not the same thing at all. SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy, Bagheera & Shadow) Cats leave pawprints on your heart http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk and i just remembered we had a landmark supreme court case, where the white medical student won his race case because he was refused entrnce into the medical school, he was white and had higher scores than several non whites who were given admittance, and the only difference of any notice was race, grade, activities outside, scolarship and all that were not substansially different, Lee >>>>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Race and colour are not the same thing at all. My DH was refused a job and was told so up front, they didn't have enough quota... they went through five people before finally getting someone to do the job, Lee >>>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Tweed >>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >> Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless >> you've experienced it. > > No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, Certainly you can. Unless, of course, you re-define 'racism' to mean something other than 'have a negative opinion of someone based on their skin colour'. Cheryl >>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >> >> Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless >> you've experienced it. >No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, gotta be a troll. > No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, You can experience something similar. When my grandparents arrived in the states from Ireland they had to deal with persecution and intolerance that we would find unbelievable today. While it might not have been technically "racism" as both the immigrants and those doing the discriminating were all caucasian, the discrimination was still present. And while most of my journeys to Europe and Asia have been more or less collegial I did find a very noticeable degree of prejudice against USA- ians in France, and some notable examples of anti-white prejudice in mainland China. Dan wrote: >> No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, > You can experience something similar. When my grandparents arrived in the > states from Ireland they had to deal with persecution and intolerance > that we would find unbelievable today. While it might not have been > technically "racism" as both the immigrants and those doing the > discriminating were all caucasian, the discrimination was still present. Yeah, there were "No Irish Need Apply" signs on business within the last century. > And while most of my journeys to Europe and Asia have been more or less > collegial I did find a very noticeable degree of prejudice against USA- > ians in France, and some notable examples of anti-white prejudice in > mainland China. Hmm, another data point regarding white people in China. Interesting... SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. >>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >> >> Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless >> you've experienced it. > > No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, THAT IS THE BIGGEST LAUGH OUT LOUD I HAVE EVER SEEN Christina no offense you live way to much of a sheltered life If you honestly believe that >>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Christina no offense you live way to much of a sheltered life If you > honestly believe that I do not live a sheltered life at all. The population of my nearest town is 60 per cent non white. I have non-white colleagues who tell me that they experience insidious racism all the time, although it's not as bad as it used to be. I know you are white, Matthew, I have seen a photo of you, so do tell me what racism you have experienced. Racism is not "I was with some black people and they didn't seem to like me because I was white and they kept blaming me for slavery." Tweed >>>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Tweed I have experienced it quite a bit Tweed. I am a hillbilly in redneck country; according to the upper white class. I have a southern accent and because of those traits. I must be some white trailer trash hick that sleeps with my family according people out there white black purple or green. IF I don't speak Spanish I am ignored when I got to some stores or areas. Remember USA and EUROPE different cultures and tolerances. I went to lunch the other day Had a Latino waitress. It was just me eating for my table. I was dressed nice. She waited on a group of Latinos first who were seated way after me and the other people that were having lunch. She ignored me, looked down at the white people when she walked by and the whole time waited on the Latinos hand and foot. I asked her could you refill my drink after being walked by 4 times. The couple next to me asked for a refill also. In Spanish said to "You can f.cking wait white boy". to them said "you can wait you old f.cks". I responded to her in Spanish that I under stood her. I told a manager and the other people talked to the manager also. I drive for a car service to make extra money. I had a African American couple be rude to me 2 weeks ago;for I require payment up front from ANYONE. They said because they were black and I was white that I was being a.shole racist making them pay up front due to they were black. I left them at the hotel. It happened when I did a Quinceañero ( Spanish sweet 15) 2 months ago. The Latinos in the back when I asked them to take their feet off the bar. They spoke in Spanish to the others telling them who cares what white boy has to say again surprised I understand Spanish. I had it happen to me when I owned the stores. If I had a problem with someone who was not white; even if they were caught stealing. I am a racist for that and have people come run their mouths due to me being white. I had false reports and lawsuits done against me for I fired non white people even when they had poor performance or were caught violating the rules or even stealing. I was looked down by the courts because they were a different minority and I was white . A African American Judge thought I was guilty and said that he believed that I committed a racist act. Lucky I had proof and won. Too bad you can't sue judges here. I think I told the group about those store incidents when they happened. So Tweed racism happens to ALL PEOPLE ALL THE TIME AND STILL IN THIS DAY AND AGE. You just have been lucky to not to have it happen to you. I am not saying that whites get it more than any other minority I know racism is still rampant some how some way. It always will be till humanity grows up Matthew it is amazing how many people do not realize that the WHITES are a minority in this country now. >>>>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > that whites get it more than any other minority I know racism is still > rampant some how some way. It always will be till humanity grows up >Matthew it is amazing how many people do not realize that the WHITES are a >minority in this country now. <50% != minority >>Matthew it is amazing how many people do not realize that the WHITES are >>a minority in this country now. > > <50% != minority Minority is usually defined as "less than half". Before you go accusing me of being a racist for saying this, let me say that I choose to live in a neighborhood that has roughly equal numbers of whites, blacks, Asians (mostly Thai, Lao, and Hmong), and Hispanics. SignatureJohn F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria >>>Matthew it is amazing how many people do not realize that the WHITES are >>>a minority in this country now. >> >> <50% != minority >Minority is usually defined as "less than half". That is only true if there are only two groups. 1a The smaller in number of two groups forming a whole. 1b A group or party having fewer than a controlling number of votes. 2a A racial, religious, political, national, or other group thought to be different from the larger group of which it is part. 2b A group having little power or representation relative to other groups within a society. and your story is the real point, it may be that UK or european culter in general is different, but in the end, it seems that this type of abuse goes on both, or all ways, and sadly is not a dysfunction of any particular group. the instituonal bias that seems present, is fading fast, and rather than being rascially based is money based, and the color that abuses is now green, Lee >>>>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > that whites get it more than any other minority I know racism is still > rampant some how some way. It always will be till humanity grows up . > So Tweed racism happens to ALL PEOPLE ALL THE TIME AND STILL IN THIS > DAY AND AGE. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is still rampant some how some way. It always will be till humanity > grows up And sometimes, Matthew it is just the "haves" screwing the "have-nots". Maybe most times. Like you I never had anyone give me a job because I had the white male membership card. Christina wrote: > Racism is not "I was with some black people and they didn't seem to > like me because I was white and they kept blaming me for slavery." LOL. Exactly! We're on the same wavelength here, Tweed. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > Christina wrote: > > > Racism is not "I was with some black people and they didn't seem to > > like me because I was white and they kept blaming me for slavery." > > LOL. Exactly! We're on the same wavelength here, Tweed. Joyce, you are the only person here who seems to *get* what I am saying. You're quite a deep thinker, aren't you? I like that. Tweed i disagree, i totally get what you are saying, and i just disagree is all, life experience and philosophy is different, Lee >> Christina wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Tweed > i disagree, i totally get what you are saying, and i just disagree is all, > life experience and philosophy is different, Lee [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Tweed I'm with Stormee - I understand Joyce & Tweed's positions - I just disagree entirely. Probably they understand my position, but disagree. That's just the way life works - I've sometimes surprised myself at the position I finally arrive at once I've thought some issue through, but I no longer believe that everyone will agree if only would they all explain their positions to each other clearly enough! We can't always reach the same conclusions starting from different premises. Cheryl >>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >> Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless >> you've experienced it. > > No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, Doesn't that rather depend upon what country you are in? I suspect there are regions of Africa in which white people encounter discrimination because of race, too. (But perhaps with more justification for such attitudes.) >>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >> >> Are you really of the opinion that you can't discuss something unless >> you've experienced it. > > No. However you cannot experience racism if you are white, Again, wanna make a bet? Pam S. >>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Pam S. OK, tell me. I can be persuaded otherwise. I am not fixed in my view on this. Tweed On Jul 7, 4:20 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > >>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Tweed I still don't get what your view *is*....did I miss a post? Where you explained why you feel that whites couldn't possibly experience racism? Sherry >>>>> If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Tweed I already posted some examples. We've been refused housing because we didn't fit the "correct" demographic. When we were stationed in El Paso Texas, we received discrimination on a daily basis. I can't remember the percentages, but whites were just up from Oriental in numbers. I was the last waited on in a fabric store, because white people don't sew. My daughter was treated like trash because she had blonde hair. When we were moving, the movers asked if I understood Spanish, and when I told them no, planned what they were going to steal from our belongings and how much they thought they could get for the items. One of my neighbors, a good friend, caught them at it and called them on it. They asked her why she could care, all of us whites were rich and could afford to lose those "little" things that they were planning on gifting themselves with. They even offered to cut her in on the deal. When she turned them in, their supervisor had the same attitude that the workers did. They're white, they can afford it. Honestly, we've received more discrimination from our accents than our skin color. We just ain't from around here. I've been laughed at, charged higher prices, had to write down my lunch order because the waitress said she couldn't understand me (this was only a couple of months ago, so I've developed enough of a Carolina accent that she should have been able to understand me), asked why our family couldn't stay up north where we belong and so forth. No big thing. I generally consider the source and go on though sometimes the willful stupidity is great enough that I get swept up in it. Pam S. > If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. > > Tweed Wanna make a bet? Pam S. >>> Jill wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Tweed The closest I've come to experiencing racism is when I lived and worked in Wales, at break times the Welsh refused to speak english. My Irish colleage was the only other non Welsh speaker and it was him that objected in no uncertain terms. SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy, Bagheera & Shadow) Cats leave pawprints on your heart http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk On Jul 4, 4:07 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > If you are white, you probably haven't experienced racism. As I say our downstairs neighbour turned up when they first moved in and told Dave he should be in a home because of disability and anyway "This now Bengali house- you leave". For a while he and his friends used to smoke in the hallway- now I as you can guess do not have any problem with smoking but I did have a problem with their habit of dropping the butts on the floor still lit then going inside- on a couple of occasions I found smouldering cigarette butts on the floor and that worried me because it's a fire hazard so one night as I was going out I simply asked if they would make sure they'd put them out- it's for their safety as much as ours after all..... They turned round and one of them called me a "White whore" and as I was walking away some of them spat at me.. Some of their kids used to come up to the landing outside our flat- they've no real reason to be there but it didn't bother me until one day I heard some of the older kids teaching the younger one's to shout "Blackie!" up at Esther's flat (Esther;s Nigerian by the way) Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Cheryl wrote: >> That's really what racism is - >> prejudice *plus power*. Anyone can call me "whitey" or "gringa" >> or whatever, but if they can't limit my opportunities in life, I >> don't call it "racism". > I don't accept the recent re-definition of racism as beliefs+power > because that means treating people as members of a group rather than as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to another group - the majority group - *aren't* individuals, they're > all the same, and they've all got power and they're all racists? I'm not saying that everyone in the powerful group has an equal amount of negative attitude. Each person is different, of course. But if white skin gives a person some privilege in society, then all people who have that skin color do have that privilege, whether they want it or not, whether they act against it or not. It's just a fact of life in a society that has institutionalized racism. This doesn't make you evil if you're white, and it doesn't mean you walk around with hate in your heart all the time. For many people, racism is unconscious and insidious. > Anyone who makes a snap judgement about me based on anything - skin > colour, appearance, sex etc etc - is prejudiced. True. No argument there. > If they politely keep their opinions to themselves, I don't know or > care whether they are prejudiced against me. The thing is, if you are of a color that doesn't routinely experience this kind of prejudice *based on color*, you have the option of walking away and forgetting about it, about not caring. That's part of the privilege of being white in a racist society. Someone who is the "wrong" color can't forget it, because it's always there. Incidents happen in daily life, both large and small, to remind them of their place in society. I think that if you are not aware of this, it's probably because you aren't the target most of the time. I live in a mostly white neighborhood. I don't get prejudice aimed at me for being white from my white neighbors. If I go into a black or latino neighborhood, I might get hostile looks from people who dislike/distrust white people on sight. But I can choose to ignore this because I have the freedom to get away from it. > If they insult me by showing their ignorance, > I'll deal with it as I do any other minor annoyance in life. It's a *minor* annoyance because you didn't grow being taught that you are inferior because of your color. It's minor because it doesn't happen to you constantly, sometimes in little daily ways, reminding you all the time of your inferior status. > But they're prejudiced (racist, if they're using race or skin colour to > go by) in all three situations, regardless of the relative social status > of the groups we come from. To look at it any other way would be to move > from individual to group responsibility, and I don't believe in group > responsibility. We're all responsible for our actions. I don't know where you're getting the idea of "group responsibility". I'm talking about some groups having more privilege than others. Only individuals can make choices to change this situation. But people still experience things differently depending on their group. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > I'm not saying that everyone in the powerful group has an equal amount > of negative attitude. Each person is different, of course. But if white [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > white, and it doesn't mean you walk around with hate in your heart all > the time. For many people, racism is unconscious and insidious. In other words, you are saying that people can be racist without knowingn it - because it's 'unconscious' - and it's not far from that to conclude that you can identify a racist by the colour of her skin. Which you can't. > The thing is, if you are of a color that doesn't routinely experience > this kind of prejudice *based on color*, you have the option of walking [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I think that if you are not aware of this, it's probably because you aren't > the target most of the time. I'm not saying prejudice on the basis of colour doesn't exist; I'm saying that assuming that all whites are racist because they participate in 'institutional racism' is false. I'm saying that prejudice based on race is an example of prejudice in general, which is part of human nature, and something we all have to deal with. There will always be people to tell you you don't belong. > > If they insult me by showing their ignorance, > > I'll deal with it as I do any other minor annoyance in life. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to you constantly, sometimes in little daily ways, reminding you all > the time of your inferior status. I think over the years I've internalized a sense of self-worth. There have been - still are, sometimes - people who try to make me inferior. *I* have to deal with these attitudes. > I don't know where you're getting the idea of "group responsibility". > I'm talking about some groups having more privilege than others. Only > individuals can make choices to change this situation. But people still > experience things differently depending on their group. You seem to be implying that its somehow the fault of the dominant group that some minority people believe they are inferior and that the dominant group has assigned these people an inferior status. Now, there have been laws that did that. But specific people passed (and repealed) those laws. Specific people still try to put others down on the basis of various characteristics including skin colour. Groups don't. It's meaningless to talk of groups being more privileged when you're discussing individual experiences. President Obama is the member of the less privileged group, and some white homeless street kid is 'privileged'. How is that meaningful? If someone insults or abuses me because he classifies me with a group he despises, *I'm* the individual who was insulted or abused, and *he's* the person who wronged me - it's irrelevant if I belong to a less privileged group and he to a more privileged one. And the wrong is much the same if he targeted me for some other reason than my group classification. I think the tendency to take personal faults (like prejudice) and ascribe them to classes of people as 'institutionalized racism', and to assume that everyone fits into groups, like little boxes, and experiences life exactly the way everyone else in their little box does, but cannot even understand anyone in the next little box over generates an extremely narrow, inaccurate and divisive view of society. Cheryl Cheryl wrote: > In other words, you are saying that people can be racist without > knowingn it - because it's 'unconscious' - and it's not far from that to > conclude that you can identify a racist by the colour of her skin. Which > you can't. It sounds like you and I might have different ideas of what it means to participate in racism. And in fact, I think it's this concept that makes it very hard for a lot of white people to acknowledge their own participation, and ways of benefitting from racism. Most people hear this and think, "But *I'm* not a racist", because they know that they don't hate non-white people just because of their color, or want to do something violent to someone based on that attribute. Most of us are not like that. But racism isn't just about burning crosses and lynchings. It has worked its way into a system that, as I see it, is more than the sum of its parts. People are social animals and we not only comprise our society, we are in turn affected by it. I think it's naive to ignore that. > I'm not saying prejudice on the basis of colour doesn't exist; I'm > saying that assuming that all whites are racist because they participate > in 'institutional racism' is false. I'm saying that prejudice based on > race is an example of prejudice in general, which is part of human > nature, and something we all have to deal with. There will always be > people to tell you you don't belong. I do agree that prejudice toward people who look or act different is part of human nature. But we live in cultures that encourage those attitudes, and they often encourage them by not proactively discouraging them. (In some cases, I think the status quo of inequality is actively encouraged, too, but probably most people simply *accept* the status quo without challenging it.) > I think over the years I've internalized a sense of self-worth. There > have been - still are, sometimes - people who try to make me inferior. > *I* have to deal with these attitudes. There are many things that cause one to suffer low self-esteem - racism is far from the only one. (And I don't believe that everyone who has been targeted by racism has low self-esteem, necessarily.) Child abuse certainly does it, no matter what color you are. Being raised female can certainly do it. There are many different kinds of prejudices, some of them entrenched into society, with dominant and oppressed groups, while others are created sort of on the fly - eg, you're the only girl in your circle with red hair, so you get teased, that kind of thing. But just because a person can be hurt by many different kinds of bad experiences, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to eliminate systemic problems that cause pain and suffering to people because of the group they belong to. >> I don't know where you're getting the idea of "group responsibility". >> I'm talking about some groups having more privilege than others. Only >> individuals can make choices to change this situation. But people still >> experience things differently depending on their group. > You seem to be implying that its somehow the fault of the dominant group > that some minority people believe they are inferior and that the > dominant group has assigned these people an inferior status. I do, sort of. I think that's a bit of an oversimplification, though. I mean, racism has a long history. We're not living in slavery times, for example, but I do believe that cultures pass down what they have experienced in the past, and this happens in all cultures. I am the product not just of my own experience, or of my parents' experiences, but of my ancestors' experiences, too - and also of the experiences of all the people around me who continue to shape the culture we all live in. This all affects me and how I see myself, and I think this applies to everyone. So I wouldn't stop some random white person in the street and say, "YOU! It's YOUR fault we have racism!" Systemic social problems don't work that way. That's why I say that systems are larger than the sum of their parts. > Now, there have been laws that did that. But specific people passed (and > repealed) those laws. Specific people still try to put others down on > the basis of various characteristics including skin colour. Groups don't. But racism isn't just about "putting people down". It's also about being denied equal opportunities in life. It's about barriers existing that keep people from simply pulling up their bootstraps and making something of themselves. Sure, some people manage to do that anyway, but they are the exception. To hold everyone to that standard is to say, "Maybe life is more difficult for you, but you are expected to overcome obstacles that are not in my way, so you can compete with me for the goodies in life. Sorry about that! Sucks being you." > It's meaningless to talk of groups being more privileged when you're > discussing individual experiences. President Obama is the member of the > less privileged group, and some white homeless street kid is > 'privileged'. How is that meaningful? If you're talking simply about race, then yes, the white kid does have some privilege that Obama does not have. However, racial issues don't exist in a vacuum - they intersect with and affect all sorts of other issues in society. Obviously, money and class play a huge role in people's experiences, too. Also, you are looking at one comparison that's atypical. There are a lot more white presidents and poor blacks than the other way around. It's like that argument, "But some women batter their husbands, too." I'm sure that's true. And in that situation, it is just as horrific for the man who is being abused as it is for the untold numbers of women who suffer from abuse. He deserves as much help as any abused woman deserves, he deserves to be taken seriously, and the woman deserves to be held accountable as much as any male abuser. But when you're talking about *systematic* social problems, a relatively rare variation like this is a red herring, IMO, and distracts from the overwhelming majority of cases > I think the tendency to take personal faults (like prejudice) and > ascribe them to classes of people as 'institutionalized racism', and to > assume that everyone fits into groups, like little boxes, and > experiences life exactly the way everyone else in their little box does, > but cannot even understand anyone in the next little box over generates > an extremely narrow, inaccurate and divisive view of society. You're vastly oversimplifying what I'm saying. I am hardly saying that every individual within group X is exactly the same. I'm talking about social structures here. You believe that a social structure is nothing more than just a group of individuals who happen to be in the same place. I do not agree with that. I believe that we have the level of individuals, and we also have the level of systems, which have a life of their own. We as individuals create the system, but in the process, we create something that also acts *on* us and shapes us, and which perpetuates itself. If you absolutely reject the idea that a social system has mechanisms of its own, if you think that, in fact, there's no such thing as a "social system", but merely collections of individuals, then I don't think we have a basis to discuss this any further. The idea that human beings are as much a product of their society as they are builders of society is basic to my world view, and I doubt this will change. If the same is true for you (that your view isn't going to change), then I'm happy to agree to disagree on that. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > Cheryl wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It sounds like you and I might have different ideas of what it means > to participate in racism. Exactly. We have different meanings for the term, probably based on different philosophies of what it means to be human and to participate in human society. If this isn't acknowledged, miscommunication is going to exist. > And in fact, I think it's this concept that > makes it very hard for a lot of white people to acknowledge their own > participation, and ways of benefitting from racism. No. There may very well be white people who participate in and benefit from racism (as there are blacks and others), but when you imply that that's the difference between my position and yours, you misunderstand me. I'm not a person who doesn't acknowledge that I am racist and benefit from racism; I'm a person who thinks the whole view of humanity and human society that that view of racism is built on is wrong - wrong in the sense of 'incorrect', not in the sense of 'morally faulty'. <snip> > It has worked its way into a system that, as I see it, is more than the > sum of its parts. People are social animals and we not only comprise > our society, we are in turn affected by it. I think it's naive to ignore > that. How is society more than the 'sum of it's parts'? > I do agree that prejudice toward people who look or act different is > part of human nature. But we live in cultures that encourage those > attitudes, and they often encourage them by not proactively discouraging > them. (In some cases, I think the status quo of inequality is actively > encouraged, too, but probably most people simply *accept* the status > quo without challenging it.) Our culture (assuming the US and Canadian ones are the same in this respect) *encourages* prejudices? Today? With the legal systems as they are? You must live in a different world than I do. Humans tend to, but the current cultural attitudes are strongly against it, and the truly institutional structures in society, the legal systems, have been specifically modified to reduce acts based on prejudices against people who look different - and are based on claims that all are equal that go back, politically speaking, to the Enlightenment, and can be traced back millenia in theology. <snip> >But just > because a person can be hurt by many different kinds of bad experiences, > doesn't mean we shouldn't try to eliminate systemic problems that cause > pain and suffering to people because of the group they belong to. We're not going to eliminate them if we claim they're systemic when our 'systems', our institutions, actively act against them. I know, you're using 'systems' and 'institutions' in a different sense than I am, one rooted in philosophies I don't agree with. I'm really pointing out what I understand from what you say, > I do, sort of. I think that's a bit of an oversimplification, though. I > mean, racism has a long history. We're not living in slavery times, for > example, but I do believe that cultures pass down what they have experienced [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who continue to shape the culture we all live in. This all affects me and > how I see myself, and I think this applies to everyone. An influence that can be and is modified by the person to whom it applies. Ultimately, what I make of my parents' and ancestors' beliefs and experiences is up to me. > So I wouldn't stop some random white person in the street and say, "YOU! > It's YOUR fault we have racism!" Systemic social problems don't work that > way. That's why I say that systems are larger than the sum of their parts. So what are you saying? That I can't make a decision about how to behave because I've been influenced by my ancestors? That I am responsible for what my ancestors did or owe someone for what they gained? That the way society is organized and run now (or in the past!) is greater and more important that my own decision and personal (as opposed to ancestral) experiences? > But racism isn't just about "putting people down". It's also about being > denied equal opportunities in life. It's about barriers existing that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are not in my way, so you can compete with me for the goodies in life. > Sorry about that! Sucks being you." Well, that's better than saying that some kind of 'system' is responsible! That simply implies that it is impossible to change what kind of situation you are born into because after all it was caused by some kind of faceless social forces that started long before you were born and that are far too powerful to challenge! > If you're talking simply about race, then yes, the white kid does have > some privilege that Obama does not have. I can't see that at all. > However, racial issues don't exist in a vacuum - they intersect with > and affect all sorts of other issues in society. Obviously, money and > class play a huge role in people's experiences, too. Also, you are > looking at one comparison that's atypical. There are a lot more white > presidents and poor blacks than the other way around. More white presidents if you look internationally - and more poor white kids, IIRC the stats correctly, if you look within the US. I seem to recall that a larger *percentage* of black Americans are poor, but because they're a minority, a larger *number* (but smaller percentage) of white Americans are poor. But my point was, of course, that it's meaningless to talk of some kind of privilege based on race when you are talking about individual relationships. Some individuals of the less-priviliged race, for any definition of 'privilige' will be more priviliged that some (or many!) members of the more priviliged race. > It's like that argument, "But some women batter their husbands, too." > I'm sure that's true. And in that situation, it is just as horrific [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > rare variation like this is a red herring, IMO, and distracts from > the overwhelming majority of cases But 'systemic' is meaningless if you are talking about something that is the responsibility of an individual, or the suffering of an individual, and moreover, its use diverts attention from the individual who suffers or causes suffering, and assigns blame and responsiblity for amendment or cure to some amorphous social group which - in my experience with the use of the term - tends to have only the narrowest connection with the incident in question. Perhaps the members of the group have the same skin colour or gender as the offender and live in the same political entity, nothing more. More women are beaten up by their partners, by all means provide more care to women victims. But assigning the cause to some kind of 'systemic problem' is pretty useless. > You're vastly oversimplifying what I'm saying. I am hardly saying that > every individual within group X is exactly the same. I'm talking about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > something that also acts *on* us and shapes us, and which perpetuates > itself. I'm taking what you say to the logical conclusions. That definition sounds like a 'system' is simply a kind of model, a psychological construct - useful for analysis, but not something that really exists, however much it is spoken about as though it does. > If you absolutely reject the idea that a social system has mechanisms > of its own, if you think that, in fact, there's no such thing as a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > same is true for you (that your view isn't going to change), then I'm > happy to agree to disagree on that. We're going to have to agree to disagree - I've known that from the beginning of this thread. I do think it is generally useful to acknowledge that that there are alternative world views, and find discussing them helpful to clarifying my own. Cheryl >> Jill wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > responsibility, and I don't believe in group responsibility. We're > all responsible for our actions. Well thought out, and very well said. Jo he was born in 1958 >>> His nose got to look, well, not quite right but he refused to admit >>> plastic surgery and he was once black. He tried to be white, and that [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Jo > "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evgm...@earthlink.net> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Money is fairly color blind. Not according to Denzel Washington and Halle Berry. It is nothing like it used to be (in the 50s and 60s), but racism is alive and well (and probably always will be). Even in today's Hollywood. "Smokie wrote: >> Money is fairly color blind. > Not according to Denzel Washington and Halle Berry. It is nothing > like it used to be (in the 50s and 60s), but racism is alive and well > (and probably always will be). Even in today's Hollywood. The people who are most likely to be aware of the racism that still exists are the people who are targeted. Seems like pretty simple logic. I don't notice racism on a day to day basis, but I'm white, so it's not happening to *me*. Ask any person of color if they still experience racism, and they are likely to say yes. It doesn't have to be extreme. It's not all about burning crosses in front of people's houses - it can be insidious. It can be little daily things, like walking into a store and having the clerk follow you around to make sure you don't steal anything. Stuff like that, you know, "driving while black" and "flying while Arab", that doesn't make the news. If it's not happening to you or me or to someone we know, we might not even know about it. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > "Smokie wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "flying while Arab", that doesn't make the news. If it's not happening > to you or me or to someone we know, we might not even know about it. Yes - but it's also true that sometimes people can assume that a reaction is due to their race (or sex, or age, or because they speak with an accent) when in fact it isn't. Still, I don't think it's unfair to note that racism has decreased noticeably in the US (and Canada) in the last half-century - that is, within the lifespan of a lot of us - and that at any time and in any place, the wealthy are more insulated from certain problems than the rest of us. They do seem to have their share of their own problems, for sure, particularly with respect to expensive vices and becoming targets for scammers and other thieves and manipulators. I don't think we'll ever have a perfect society. Cheryl and you know in the end all we as individuals can do is conduct ourselves in such a way as to be an example for the children around us, hoping it takes enough to stamp it out, Lee >> "Smokie wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Cheryl > and you know in the end all we as individuals can do is conduct ourselves in > such a way as to be an example for the children around us, hoping it takes > enough to stamp it out, Lee Yes, it comes down to individual action - it's far more useful to conduct ourselves properly than to complain about people who don't. It's also encouraging to notice positive changes. It's discouraging to notice only the negative ones. Cheryl this is so true, Lee >> and you know in the end all we as individuals can do is conduct ourselves >> in such a way as to be an example for the children around us, hoping it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Cheryl > > <bastXXXe...@sonic.net> wrote in message > >news:4a468ece$0$1581$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net... [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Cheryl I certainly agree with that. And today there are a few less of them. And to think I was bored to nausea by the unavoidable repeated news of "Jon and Kate Plus 8"'s split, deepsixing their reality show on every channel except the weather one. Can't help imagining a voice from somewhere booming, "So...you think J&K+8 is so ****? *I'll* give you ***, oh unworshipful one!" And lo.... >>> AZ wrote: > When I'm staying somewhere with cable TV, I sometimes watch these makeover [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > There's a lot of strange people out there. Listen to me. Operations are very painful and if you don't need one for your health don't consider one for vanity. It hurts. A lot. I just got over my last emergency one. I am back at work but it still hurts. DO NOT HAVE AN OPERATION IF YOU CAN AVOID IT. >>>> AZ wrote: >> When I'm staying somewhere with cable TV, I sometimes watch these makeover [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Tweed, you are so right. I tell this to my family all the time. Sometimes the treatment/cure is worse thanm the ailment. Re: M. Jackson, IMHO 9and it is only my opinion), he wanted to look like his friend, Elizabeth Taylor. I read one time that he actually had to have an artificial nose made because his own had become so hideous. I don't know if that was true or not. I was never a M. Jackson fan. His constant reaching for his crotch amused me. Was he trying to see if something had finally sprouted? >>>> AZ wrote: >> When I'm staying somewhere with cable TV, I sometimes watch these makeover [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Tweed, you are so right. I tell this to my family all the time. Sometimes the treatment/cure is worse thanm the ailment. Re: M. Jackson, IMHO 9and it is only my opinion), he wanted to look like his friend, Elizabeth Taylor. I read one time that he actually had to have an artificial nose made because his own had become so hideous. I don't know if that was true or not. I was never a M. Jackson fan. His constant reaching for his crotch amused me. Was he trying to see if something had finally sprouted? >>>>> AZ wrote: >>> When I'm staying somewhere with cable TV, I sometimes watch these [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > constant reaching for his crotch amused me. Was he trying to see if > something had finally sprouted? That reminds me of that old Eddie Murphy routine with the Michael Jackson doll. "Just as I feared-- anatomically correct!!" Oh dear! Now I'm laughing. SignatureTheresa and Dante Stinky Forever: http://pets.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh LOLOLOL Lee >>>>> AZ wrote: >>> When I'm staying somewhere with cable TV, I sometimes watch these [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > constant reaching for his crotch amused me. Was he trying to see if > something had finally sprouted? OMG I remember thinking that same thing once!!!! > LOLOLOL Lee >>>>>> AZ wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> constant reaching for his crotch amused me. Was he trying to see if >> something had finally sprouted? >>>> AZ wrote: >> When I'm staying somewhere with cable TV, I sometimes watch these makeover [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I just got over my last emergency one. I am back at work but it still > hurts. DO NOT HAVE AN OPERATION IF YOU CAN AVOID IT. You don't have to tell me that. And if you do tell that to the Michael Jacksons and the Farah Fawcetts of this world, and thousands of others like them, they won't believe you and they won't believe their motivations are vanity. They think surgery is necessary for their professions. They are afraid of aging, either by itself or because of the effect looking old has on their employment prospects. They consider it essential to look their best, and consider plastic surgery just another step along a line that begins with plucking and waxing to remove excess hair and excessive dieting. 'Il faut souffrir pour être belle' (It is necessary to suffer to be beautiful) is a very old saying, and probably has more to do with Jackson's excessive use of plastic surgery than any wish he may have had to be white. Jackson's just another person who probably had vitiligo causing the skin colour changes, and who also believed that plastic surgery was necessary to make him as beautiful and acceptable and professionally employable as possible. A lot of people think that way. Telling them they shouldn't is hardly going to have an impact on them. Me, I'm having no plastic surgery and don't dye the grey in my hair. I'd say it was my protest against suffering in the search for beauty, but really, I just don't have any interest in changing my nose or wrinkles or hair. Cheryl > Jackson's just another person who probably had vitiligo causing the skin > colour changes, and who also believed that plastic surgery was necessary [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > against suffering in the search for beauty, but really, I just don't > have any interest in changing my nose or wrinkles or hair. Michael Jackson did, indeed, have vitiligo, from what I have read. Unfortunately, in the process of covering the discolored skin with makeup, he ended up with a complexion that looked more like a wax statue than any natural skin color. SignatureJohn F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria >> Jackson's just another person who probably had vitiligo causing the skin >> colour changes, and who also believed that plastic surgery was necessary [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > makeup, he ended up with a complexion that looked more like a wax statue > than any natural skin color. So what happened to his nose? Oh, come on,,he had far too much plastic surgery so he could appear white. I heard he wanted to look like Elizabeth Taylor. Oh , that failed then. What a troubled soul he was. Tweed one of our commentators here said his father teased him as a child and it was mostly about his long nose, so there was some "fixing to please" there... you are correct very troubled soul indeed, Lee >>> Jackson's just another person who probably had vitiligo causing the skin >>> colour changes, and who also believed that plastic surgery was necessary [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Tweed >> AZ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Maybe she's just curious. Something doesn't have to be "important" to >> a person in order to ask a question about it. >No, I'm not being curious. I am stating a fact that Michael Jackson had >lots of operations to make him seem white and why? Who cares? He's dead. Quit beating the dead horse. >>> AZ wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Who cares? He's dead. Quit beating the dead horse. Why don't you quit being rude instead? I thought Michael was just beautiful during the 'Thriller' era. He should have quit while he was ahead. Jill >>>> AZ wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > beautiful during the 'Thriller' era. He should have quit while he was > ahead. He was a beautiful *child*, black features and all, which I think is what makes all this so perplexing and heartbreaking that he should obliterate every trace of that child. Some British tabloid did one of those digital forward-projections of his child face, to fifty years old, without all the plastic surgery. He would have been a handsome man. SignatureTheresa and Dante Stinky Forever: http://pets.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh >>> AZ wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Who cares? He's dead. Quit beating the dead horse. I guess you're white then. Tweed >> I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. >> He wanted to be white, Why? > why is it important to you? Here is a better question. Why does it bother so much that she asked? On Jun 27, 3:30 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. > He wanted to be white, Why? Jackson allegedly suffered from a skin disorder called vitiligo, which affects the pigment of the skin, leaving a blotchy look. The story goes that he chose a procedure called "depigmentation", which basically removes the pigment from the dark skin and makes a more even skin tone, though lighter. That's the official story anyway; the public will never know which is the truth. Like Dan said, people can say anything they want, but he IMO was a tortured soul and again IMO the product of his upbringing and environment. But an amazing performer. IMO. Sherry Whatever he did, or didn't do is Gods decision now. I am sorry he was surrounded by people who didn't seem to help but, as is many cases of rich, famous people, were trying to figure out to get their piece of the pie. After the first allegation against him, any parents who allowed their children to be involved with him in any way are more guilty for what may have happened. On Jun 27, 3:30 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. > He wanted to be white, Why? Jackson allegedly suffered from a skin disorder called vitiligo, which affects the pigment of the skin, leaving a blotchy look. The story goes that he chose a procedure called "depigmentation", which basically removes the pigment from the dark skin and makes a more even skin tone, though lighter. That's the official story anyway; the public will never know which is the truth. Like Dan said, people can say anything they want, but he IMO was a tortured soul and again IMO the product of his upbringing and environment. But an amazing performer. IMO. Sherry >After the first allegation against him, any parents who allowed their >children to be involved with him in any way are more guilty for what may >have happened. Well, it ultimately became quite obvious that *nothing* happened. And I'm not much enamored of "guilt by allegation." Ever see the movie /The Children's Hour/? Very ugly. The first (and only) allegation was from a known con artist who had previously tried to extort money from other celebrities, using similar false allegations. It should have been utterly ignored by all -- including parents, and especially including a certain racist DA. (If there had been a good judge on the case, the DA would have had his rear end handed to him for bringing a case which was utterly without merit.) SignatureWayne M. >>After the first allegation against him, any parents who allowed their >>children to be involved with him in any way are more guilty for what may [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > there had been a good judge on the case, the DA would have had his rear > end handed to him for bringing a case which was utterly without merit.) Sorry Wayne; the man admitted to getting in bed with young children. I don't even care if nothing happened after that because that is way over my line. The level of anger in your post borders on bizarre. > the man admitted to getting in bed with young children. I >don't even care if nothing happened after that because that is way over my >line. That's fine. You're a private citizen, not a public prosecutor. Your line is yours alone and should properly have no effect on anyone else. > The level of anger in your post borders on bizarre. I don't know about "bizarre". I would hope that any of us would experience *some* level of anger when we observe misconduct in a public prosecutor. It happens more often than most folks know, and is largely responsible for the appalling percentage of people in our prisons who are factually innocent. I assure you I wasn't pounding on the keyboard when I wrote the message. Heidi would object if I did that. She thinks that the proper way to type is to calmly place your paw on just one or two keys and let the screen fill up. Or better yet, to sneakily slide a paw over onto a control key and watch the human's confusion as his typing produces weird and unexpected results. SignatureWayne M. >> After the first allegation against him, any parents who allowed their >> children to be involved with him in any way are more guilty for what may >> have happened. > > Well, it ultimately became quite obvious that *nothing* happened. "Obvious" to WHOM? Lack of objective proof in a court of law is just that. Our laws provide that an accused person is "presumed innocent" until PROVEN guilty. (Being acquitted for lack of proof does NOT mean "nothing happened" - only that nothing could be proved.) > And > I'm not much enamored of "guilt by allegation." Ever see the movie /The [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > there had been a good judge on the case, the DA would have had his rear > end handed to him for bringing a case which was utterly without merit.) Whatever the actual truth of the matter, and even if "Neverland" was simply an attempt by a man of mature years to fulfill his infantile fantasies (and share them with children), would YOU have allowed your children to be unsupervised guests there? Even if the actual situations had no sexual overtones, the venue itself was "kinky" enough to raise doubts in any responsible parent. IMO, better to avoid the POSSIBILITY of molestation, however "pure" everyone's actual motives may have been. >> And >> I'm not much enamored of "guilt by allegation." Ever see the movie /The >> Children's Hour/? Very ugly. > Whatever the actual truth of the matter, and even if "Neverland" was > simply an attempt by a man of mature years to fulfill his infantile [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > doubts in any responsible parent. IMO, better to avoid the POSSIBILITY > of molestation, however "pure" everyone's actual motives may have been. I agree. I wouldn't allow my kids to hang out in such a place. That's common sense. I'm still glad our laws work the way they do, though. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. I guess that is where I was trying to come from. It may be that nothing happened there that was wrong but, I wouldn't want my child to be unsupervised in anyone's home that I didn't know, especially overnight. He was indeed a troubled soul and it can break you heart to think that all the money and things he had brought him no peace. It just makes you sad. > >> And > >> I'm not much enamored of "guilt by allegation." Ever see the movie [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I agree. I wouldn't allow my kids to hang out in such a place. That's > common sense. I'm still glad our laws work the way they do, though. >> Well, it ultimately became quite obvious that *nothing* happened. > >"Obvious" to WHOM? Obvious to anyone watching the prosecution go through dozens of interviews of children who had spent at least one night at the Ranch while Michael was there, looking for anything that could possibly be used, and come up remarkably empty. It seems that all those other kids just had a good time and neither experienced nor witnessed anything improper. >Whatever the actual truth of the matter, and even if "Neverland" was >simply an attempt by a man of mature years to fulfill his infantile >fantasies (and share them with children), would YOU have allowed your >children to be unsupervised guests there? I haven't any children and can't know, of course, but I assume I would have been as likely as any parent to make such a decision on an emotional, rather than a rational basis. That's what makes guilt by allegation such an ugly thing -- the total inability of any of us to ever wash the stain out of the mind. > Even if the actual situations >had no sexual overtones, the venue itself was "kinky" enough to raise >doubts in any responsible parent. Kink, like beauty, is entirely in the eye of the beholder. It's a trivial exercise to prove that every one of us is a sexual pervert. It is no part of responsible parenting to keep a child out of situation A and allow it in situation B when there is no actual indication that situation A is more dangerous than situation B. That situation A *seems* more dangerous to the parent shouldn't matter if there is no actual evidence that it is. >IMO, better to avoid the POSSIBILITY >of molestation, however "pure" everyone's actual motives may have been. I hope you are capable of realizing that such an opinion, as common as it is, is utterly irrational. If, as you predicate, everyone's actual motives here are pure, why should we avoid a possibility here which is no higher than the possibility we are ignoring over there? It's the same illogic that makes parents warn children not to talk to strangers, even though any child is statistically many times safer from molestation while out talking to strangers than while in his or her own, assumedly safe, home. SignatureWayne M. >>After the first allegation against him, any parents who allowed their >>children to be involved with him in any way are more guilty for what may [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > there had been a good judge on the case, the DA would have had his rear > end handed to him for bringing a case which was utterly without merit.) It would have been interesting for our child protection service to investigate him. I wonder what the conclusion would have been. I don't know as I don't know all the facts. Having a small child in your bed does not mean you are sexually interfering with them - they might have had a nightmare or be afraid of sleeping alone so you have them in there to comfort them. On the other hand maybe all men who like children are paedophiles but I know that isn't true. When I was 7 or 8 I wanted a rabbit and a man up the street had a lot of them and I used go up to his house every day to covet them. He used to let me go into his shed to look at them and after about a year of me looking he said "ask your mother if I can give you one" So I did and he did. I still remember him. He liked children without having a unnatural interest in them. It is quite possible. Tina > Whatever he did, or didn't do is Gods decision now. I am sorry he was > surrounded by people who didn't seem to help but, as is many cases of rich, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > children to be involved with him in any way are more guilty for what may > have happened. I am enough of a cynic to think those parents were perfectly willing to prostitute their children in hopes of bringing a lucrative lawsuit! (Quite aside from the nasty rumors, what responsible parents would allow their children to stay overnight, unchaperoned, in such a clearly "kinky" environment?) > On Jun 27, 3:30 pm, "Christina Websell" > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry Somewhere, once upon a time, the photos taken after the first accusations came out, those were released to the press. Whether the actual reason he chose depigmentation was because of vitiligo or not we will never know, but he certainly had a very strange look, when he didn't use makeup (on his chest as an example). It was said that his face, and the rest of his body, was the same. I agree that he had a very difficult life. The things that have come out about how he and his brothers were treated by their father are detestable. He was amazingly talented. > On Jun 27, 3:30 pm, "Christina Websell" > <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > which affects the pigment of the > skin, leaving a blotchy look. I have vitiligo. I have a patch of white on my leg, just above the knee. I mean I'm white, but that patch is *really* white. It's more obvious when I'm tanned. It doesn't bother me, but if I had that patch on my face, I might want to do something about it. The vitiligo is supposedly why my hair started turning grey when I was 13 years old. My hair has been completely white since my early 30s. SignatureMarina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. > I have vitiligo. I have a patch of white on my leg, just above the knee. > I mean I'm white, but that patch is *really* white. It's more obvious > when I'm tanned. It doesn't bother me, but if I had that patch on my > face, I might want to do something about it. I'm sure that's true. But imagine if the rest of your skin was dark brown and you had these white patches. It's a harmless condition, medically speaking but it does cause people to feel badly about how they look. I think it's a lot harder on dark-skinned people, not to minimize how it might feel even to a pale-skinned person, if they had the white patches in highly visible places. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > > I have vitiligo. I have a patch of white on my leg, just above the knee. > > I mean I'm white, but that patch is *really* white. It's more obvious [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > minimize how it might feel even to a pale-skinned person, if they had > the white patches in highly visible places. I'm sure they make "cover-stick" in darker skin tones, too - it's not only Caucasians who want to hide facial blemishes! >> I think it's a lot harder on dark-skinned people, not to >> minimize how it might feel even to a pale-skinned person, if they had >> the white patches in highly visible places. > I'm sure they make "cover-stick" in darker skin tones, too - it's not > only Caucasians who want to hide facial blemishes! Vitiligo can cause large areas of the skin to turn white. After a certain point, cover sticks are a bit impractical. We're not talking about pimples! SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > >> I think it's a lot harder on dark-skinned people, not to > >> minimize how it might feel even to a pale-skinned person, if they had [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > certain point, cover sticks are a bit impractical. We're not talking > about pimples! so are you saying that Michael Jackson had extreme vitiligo and that caused him him to turn white and get extreme plastic surgery to make his nose match up to being white? I disagree. He was a black person who didn't want to be black and it makes me sad. Tweed On Jun 29, 4:06 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > <bastXXXe...@sonic.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I don't know, Tweed. I don't presume to know what goes on in someone else's head. Sherry > On Jun 29, 4:06 pm, "Christina Websell" > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Sherry (snork) So MJ wanted to be white. Eminem wants to be black.I want to be young again.....and rich wouldn't hurt either. I am way over (actually, was never) being "sad" for what goes on in celebs' heads as to their wannabes. I am old enough to remember when Elvis was banned from certain tv exposure because him shaking that leg while singing was considered "obscene". I do not recall him ever clutching his "family jewels" and I was never an Elvis fan. How times do change. I get sad when I see the caged cats at local animal shelter looking out at me from their little perch inside, not knowing if they will ever get a forever home. I recently went to a great deal of trouble to bring one of them home. Poor, poor celebs, many with too much $ and very little brains. Forgive my non- fan-status. Or not. >> > I have vitiligo. I have a patch of white on my leg, just above the >> knee. > I mean I'm white, but that patch is *really* white. It's more [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I'm sure they make "cover-stick" in darker skin tones, too - it's not > only Caucasians who want to hide facial blemishes! I'm changing my mind on this. I'd assumed that of course the vitiligo story was just a cover-up for Jackson's obsession with becoming white, but I did a bit of googling after reading earlier posts on this thread. Not only is the problem far more obvious on dark skin than on light, it can be so widespread that covering with makeup can be very difficult, and removal of the remaining pigment can have a better result than attempting to even out what remains - especially if the disease is an aggressive form. There's a black reporter who has gone public with his experiences - it affects his hand more than his face, but the lack of colour is very eyecatching, and the emotional impact can be quite devastating since people assume the disease is catching, like leprosy. Cheryl >>> > I have vitiligo. I have a patch of white on my leg, just above the >>> knee. > I mean I'm white, but that patch is *really* white. It's more [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Cheryl It seems to me that such a condition would be especially devastating for a performer. Joy If, and I suspect in Michaels case, there weren't people around you who had your best interest at heart. It could have been handled differently. As in the case of the reporter, talk about it, get it out and go on. Don't oh I don't know, it was just so sad to have lived all those years and still not like yourself. >>>> > I have vitiligo. I have a patch of white on my leg, just above the >>>> knee. > I mean I'm white, but that patch is *really* white. It's more [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Joy I have vitiligo, too (seems to be not uncommon in people with thyroid issues) and basically, I have it all over my hands and arms and on my feet and lower legs. My skin is very pale normally so what I have on my face is almost unnoticeable (except under black light, my dermatologist found it's all around my lips and if I look carefully, I can see it.) so far but one of my fears is that it's going to become obvious there. I've become pretty self-conscious about it on my hands, I have to say, and it's one reason I don't wear the bracelets and rings I used to before. Sigh. A silly thing to be vain about if I think about it. However, I have had people ask me about my "scarring" on my hands and arms. Christine >>> > I have vitiligo. I have a patch of white on my leg, just above the >>> knee. > I mean I'm white, but that patch is *really* white. It's more [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Cheryl >I have vitiligo, too (seems to be not uncommon in people with thyroid >issues) and basically, I have it all over my hands and arms and on my feet [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >about my "scarring" on my hands and arms. > Christine One of my classmates at Faytech had vitiligo on her face. People seemed to assume that it was some sort of catching thing. Personally, I couldn't have cared less. I sometimes get avoided because I have a tendency to get that nasty red rash on my face and arms. It looks like some sort of measles rash (I've had both types of measles, thank you) or small pox thing. I've also been asked if I'm in rehab for it. I tell them it is extremely catching and that I caught it in the great Indian raids of 07. People back off for some reason. Pam S. >>I have vitiligo, too (seems to be not uncommon in people with thyroid >>issues) and basically, I have it all over my hands and arms and on my feet [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Pam S. Oh my, good for you. People can be so ODD in the questions they ask, or what they will say to someone they hardly know. Once a person gave me a whole lecture about an ethnic group I happen to belong to, telling me all "their" bad characteristics. I looked right at her, stepped a little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also unpredictably violent?" She excused herself. SignatureTheresa and Dante Stinky Forever: http://pets.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh outstanding, people do ask the most bizarre questions, when i was losing my vision, some days i carried a can, some days i could see well enough i didn't need it, and some days i needed it early but not later... i realized that on these days it was interesting the people who would speak when i wasn't carrying my cane, but would avoid me when i had it with me, then ask me why i was so cold to them on days when i didn't have it and they would speak, my standard answer was, oh sorry didn't see you, Lee >>>I have vitiligo, too (seems to be not uncommon in people with thyroid >>>issues) and basically, I have it all over my hands and arms and on my [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also unpredictably violent?" > She excused herself. > outstanding, people do ask the most bizarre questions, when i was > losing my vision, some days i carried a can, I'm not going to say it. I am not going to say it. oh god, i still don't have a spell check that is just too funny, go ahead and say it..., Lee >> outstanding, people do ask the most bizarre questions, when i was >> losing my vision, some days i carried a can, > > I'm not going to say it. I am not going to say it. I believe that was CANE. Did you ever have people talk about you when you could sometimes read sales tag and other times not? > outstanding, people do ask the most bizarre questions, when i was losing > my vision, some days i carried a can, some days i could see well enough i [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also unpredictably violent?" >> She excused herself. well lemme see... i got followed in a k mart once for about six hours because DH and i were shopping the blue light sales and generally hanging out to wait for the sleazy deli food to go o half price at the end of the day, she kept following me because i would pick up stuff and get it close enough to look at a pattern or tag... I guess she thought i was going to stuff that area rug down my shirt into my bra... like there would have been room for a dime let alone anything else... and there was that time i ended up suing a guy for putting me out of his resturant because he said if i could get ten thousand points on pac man i must not need or even have a legitimate dog guide, does that quailfy, Lee >I believe that was CANE. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >>> little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also unpredictably >>> violent?" She excused herself. Yepper that does . > well lemme see... > i got followed in a k mart once for about six hours because DH and i were [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >>>> little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also unpredictably >>>> violent?" She excused herself. I get so sick, sometimes, that some colleagues do not understand about my visual disability. They do not seem to understand that is not about totally blind or can see perfectly. I'm just hoping my sight will last for 4 years until I can retire early. My best eye is full of floaters so I guess I got a vitreous bleed. > Yepper that does . >> well lemme see... [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>>>> stepped a little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also >>>>> unpredictably violent?" She excused herself. > I get so sick, sometimes, that some colleagues do not understand > about my visual disability. They do not seem to understand that is > not about totally blind or can see perfectly. > I'm just hoping my sight will last for 4 years until I can retire > early. My best eye is full of floaters so I guess I got a vitreous > bleed. Is it not possible for you to retire early on medical grounds? SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy, Bagheera & Shadow) Cats leave pawprints on your heart http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk Welcome to my world. I work full time, raised two kids, took care of a stroke patient, Mother in law. They husband was in a car accident years ago and took care of him. Let me apply for a caretaker job but then they tell me I can't because I am partially sighted. Thank God the cats don't give a darn so long as they get fed. > I get so sick, sometimes, that some colleagues do not understand about my > visual disability. They do not seem to understand that is not about [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] >>>>>> stepped a little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also >>>>>> unpredictably violent?" She excused herself. On Jul 3, 11:54 am, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > I get so sick, sometimes, that some colleagues do not understand about my > visual disability. They do not seem to understand that is not about totally > blind or can see perfectly. Dave gets the other side of it- born without most of his lower arms and 2 thumbs and an index finger- he looks obviously disabled but after 31 years I can state the only 2 things he can;t do is peel vegetables (well it's a slow process if he does he uses tinned or frozen ones or I do them) and carry two glasses at once unless he uses a tray but he sometimes gets treated as if he's deaf/blind/has learning difficulties etc.He doesn't regard himself as disabled and neither do most people who know him. He always says he feels more sorry for people wiht "invisible" disabilities....our friend Matt has severe epilepsy and no one makes any allowances for that because it's not visible until he's on the floor having a fit- As Dave says the problem is most people think "disabled" means in a wheelchair or with a guide dog.. Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Yeah, and did you know that ALL blind people also have hearing problems. Even when I am working, people tend to yell at me. On days when I have reached the end of my rope and, don't want to tie a knot to hang on, I will turn and say, not too friendly like. Please, my name is Brenda not Helen Keller, no need to shout. As I say, glad my animal friends don't give a flying fig so long as they get fed. On Jul 3, 11:54 am, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > I get so sick, sometimes, that some colleagues do not understand about my > visual disability. They do not seem to understand that is not about > totally > blind or can see perfectly. Dave gets the other side of it- born without most of his lower arms and 2 thumbs and an index finger- he looks obviously disabled but after 31 years I can state the only 2 things he can;t do is peel vegetables (well it's a slow process if he does he uses tinned or frozen ones or I do them) and carry two glasses at once unless he uses a tray but he sometimes gets treated as if he's deaf/blind/has learning difficulties etc.He doesn't regard himself as disabled and neither do most people who know him. He always says he feels more sorry for people wiht "invisible" disabilities....our friend Matt has severe epilepsy and no one makes any allowances for that because it's not visible until he's on the floor having a fit- As Dave says the problem is most people think "disabled" means in a wheelchair or with a guide dog.. Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Surely you know that all blind people are also stupid. It's not possible for them to tell you if they would like sugar in their tea, it has to be asked of the sighted person who accompanies them. "Does she want sugar?" Tweed > Yeah, and did you know that ALL blind people also have hearing problems. > Even when I am working, people tend to yell at me. On days when I have [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Oh my God, you sound like me and Lee. My husband always answered for me when asked these questions. In 30 years I could not break him of the habit. Lee's DH always says "I don't know, ask her". Once Bob was taking me to the bathroom and the waitress asked "Oh does she have to use the ladies room?" I started to say something and Bob slapped his hand over my mouth and made some sort of remark, he said he could tell that what I was about to say should not be said in public. > Surely you know that all blind people are also stupid. It's not possible > for them to tell you if they would like sugar in their tea, it has to be [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> >> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > Oh my God, you sound like me and Lee. My husband always answered > for me when asked these questions. In 30 years I could not break [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > remark, he said he could tell that what I was about to say should > not be said in public. Now that's an advantage of being deaf. You don't have to listen to stupid people. Jo Yepper, u won that round. Sometimes if you don't see reactions, you can have a lot more fun because you don't see people making stupid faces at you. Like the neighborhood kids had a pogo stick contest and I WON. Could stay on the longest. One little guy wanted me disqualified because of my age, I was after all WAAAAYY over 12. >> Oh my God, you sound like me and Lee. My husband always answered for me >> when asked these questions. In 30 years I could not break him of the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jo i am fortunate that mine is a bit better than yours was, but that is only because i think he feels guilty when they don't even see me because of the effect he has on them, Lee > Oh my God, you sound like me and Lee. My husband always answered for me > when asked these questions. In 30 years I could not break him of the [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >>> >>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Yeah, they see those eyes and don't look any further. I was with them once and he gave his order first, only because we had not decided what we wanted yet, the girl just held the order pad and backed away and he had to remind her we hadn't ordered. He never sees any of these actions which, makes it funny. >i am fortunate that mine is a bit better than yours was, but that is only >because i think he feels guilty when they don't even see me because of the [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>>> >>>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs well most of the time, unless i am really hungry and don't want to go to a different resturant, Lee > Yeah, they see those eyes and don't look any further. I was with them > once and he gave his order first, only because we had not decided what we [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > well most of the time, unless i am really hungry and don't want to go to a > different resturant, Lee [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >>>>> >>>>Reminds me of the time a year or so ago when my daughter-in-law escorted me to my doctor's appointment. After seeing the doctor, the nurse came in with my new prescription and started to give the instructions to my daughter-in-law. I spoke up and asked why she did that as I was the patient. She was completely flustered and stammered that she thought it was necessary. Now I wasn't blind, but I am on the(shall we say) aged side. I suppose in her mind she thought all old people are senile. MLB another bitory that deserves getting smacked for, i mean i figure the older people around me will need help soon enough and eventually so will i but lets not rush it shall we, Lee >> well most of the time, unless i am really hungry and don't want to go to >> a different resturant, Lee [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > side. > I suppose in her mind she thought all old people are senile. MLB I guess I qualify for the old part. Some of my family think I now need their help more than ever. So long as I work, pay my own bills, I WILL have the final word. I know when I mess up, I don't need them telling me! > another bitory that deserves getting smacked for, i mean i figure the > older people around me will need help soon enough and eventually so will i [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >> side. >> I suppose in her mind she thought all old people are senile. MLB my dad says, when you pay all the bills i can incur then you might get a say, Lee >I guess I qualify for the old part. Some of my family think I now need >their help more than ever. So long as I work, pay my own bills, I WILL [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] >>> side. >>> I suppose in her mind she thought all old people are senile. MLB > my dad says, when you pay all the bills i can incur then you might get a > say, Lee Or the reverse, said to teenagers: "While you're under my roof and I'm paying your bills, you'll do things my way!" It's a great incentive to achieve financial independence! Cheryl he said that also... my dad is a great guy. Lee >> my dad says, when you pay all the bills i can incur then you might get a >> say, Lee [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Cheryl > he said that also... my dad is a great guy. Lee >>> my dad says, when you pay all the bills i can incur then you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Cheryl Oh yes, the universal Golden Rule. He who has the gold, makes the rules. Jo >> my dad says, when you pay all the bills i can incur then you might get >> a say, Lee [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Cheryl Indeed it is! (And also to move several thousand miles away from home.) >> my dad says, when you pay all the bills i can incur then you might get a >> say, Lee [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It's a great incentive to achieve financial independence! Cheryl's post brought something to mind from my childhood. I was only about 6. We had a open coal fire at the time and I picked up the poker to poke the fire. My grandfather thundered "Don't poke the fire unless you pay the bills." I was frightened, that's why I still remember it. Tweed I sound like you and Lee because I have sight problems myself, not quite so serious though. Bad enough to occasionally need the help of my colleagues to read the number off my work computer if I report it as faulty (silver on silver I cannot read that! nor black on black) , most of whom who are great, but one or two are not. They have perfect sight themselves and just do not understand what "lack of visual acuity" means. It's a side effect of all the operations to save my central vision. One of my colleagues was particular difficult, she was annoyed that I was excused things she was expected to do herself and she made it clear by causing an atmosphere for weeks. Someone else brought it to the manager's attention. She was called in for a half hour talk. No problem now. If I cannot read something she now jumps up to do it. Good job. Tweed > Oh my God, you sound like me and Lee. My husband always answered for me > when asked these questions. In 30 years I could not break him of the [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >>> >>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs The "lack of visual acuity" is as much a problem for me now as when I was a teen. Actually more. I am finding as you get older, the lack of sight is sort of expected on a certain level. I have met a couple of fellas I might like a chance to have gotten to know better. But, Oh my God, u can't see well. If I have a problem, who is going to take care of us". No sense explaining I have taken care of me for years and others that have problems too. Ahh well, such is life. Glad the girl is willing to help you when needed. I do all of my typing white on black background. >I sound like you and Lee because I have sight problems myself, not quite so >serious though. Bad enough to occasionally need the help of my colleagues [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >>>> >>>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs at my best i could do everything but drive legally, but that didn't help me read a menu in a dimly lit eatery, or a board up on the wall with the menu there, It is very frusterating for sure, Lee >I sound like you and Lee because I have sight problems myself, not quite so >serious though. Bad enough to occasionally need the help of my colleagues [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >>>> >>>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > at my best i could do everything but drive legally, but that > didn't help me read a menu in a dimly lit eatery, or a board up on > the wall with the menu there, It is very frusterating for sure, > Lee For what its worth, at least half the population over forty can't read a menu in a dimly lit eatery. A huge number of people just make a habit of ordering something they know will be available rather than deal with the hassle of figuring out what is available and comparing it to what they might really be in the mood to eat. I get frustrated when I order exactly what I want, with all the options I can think of covered, and the server has to ask a whole bunch of questions that I can't understand and don't care about anyway. Frustrated, because it isn't their fault either and they are just trying to do their jobs. Jo I realize that lots of people can't read the menu when older, DH used to have better than perfect vision, he used to read the fast food menu through the glass sitting in the car if we parked in front... the point is that if you drive to the eatery and can't read the menu you are frusterated with half the rest of the people in there, as a young woman on a first date it was humilating to not be able to read the menu... this relates to "passing" so a friend came up with the idea of going to the place a date wnted to go ahead of time and reading me the menu... which worked if i knew where i was going... as to not understand the server... that does suck, even hearing well when the english isn't good i get deranged, I said NO oil, not extra... i can imagine you have eaten or sent back some several meals over time. Lee >> at my best i could do everything but drive legally, but that didn't help >> me read a menu in a dimly lit eatery, or a board up on the wall with the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Jo > I realize that lots of people can't read the menu when older, DH > used to have better than perfect vision, he used to read the fast [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Lee My version of passing is pretty much that I decided a very long time ago that it just isn't worth the aggravation. I go to the restaurants and go through the fast food drive throughs and do my best to place my order, then I take whatever I get and am happy with it. If what I order and what I pay for and what I get are all in the same general price range (a clue they have really messed up) I'm good to go. Does lead to interesting (and sweet) things like the poor guy at the grand opening of our local In-n-Out burger that chased my car half way across the parking lot to make sure I got my fries. I sometimes miss it when they tell me part of the order will be just a minute. Jo at this age i wouldn't go through all of that now, it somehow isn't worth it, I am blind, i run into stuff, and if you want me to eat out with you you have to either read the menu or find what i want on it ... sometimes i say to a compaion, look for chicken alfredo... if that doesn't suit you we won't eat together... as one gets older these things just aren't as important, Lee >> I realize that lots of people can't read the menu when older, DH used to >> have better than perfect vision, he used to read the fast food menu [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Jo I have actually stopped going out to eat with some people from work. It turned into a "now lets red the menu for Brenda" then would ensue two different people trying to read the menu at the same time. Even when I said it was a chicken or steak night for me. > at this age i wouldn't go through all of that now, it somehow isn't worth > it, I am blind, i run into stuff, and if you want me to eat out with you [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> >> Jo My eyes now take ages to swap from light to dark and vice versa. "Normal" peoples eyes adapt immediately. I have to use a torch to look into a cupboard, and when I first had my op I rushed outside into the dark, realising I had not shut my chickens up safely. I fell over and broke a tooth. I'm lucky my central vision was saved but it has it's price. My visual acuity is shot and I can't see in the dark. However I'm much better off sight-wise than you and Granby. I'm grateful for that. I'm not sure how long it will last. Tweed > at my best i could do everything but drive legally, but that didn't help > me read a menu in a dimly lit eatery, or a board up on the wall with the [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs well i got to see years longer through medical intervention... and a very odd thing of not healing well, i had over 18 surgeries and took some experimental drugs, that was also at a price, the drug ruined my teeth and has done some other damage... but in the end well worth the swap. Lee > My eyes now take ages to swap from light to dark and vice versa. "Normal" > peoples eyes adapt immediately. I have to use a torch to look into a [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > well i got to see years longer through medical intervention... and a very > odd thing of not healing well, i had over 18 surgeries and took some > experimental drugs, that was also at a price, the drug ruined my teeth and > has done some other damage... but in the end well worth the swap. I know someone who is HIV+. Years ago, he participated in a study of experimental drugs for this virus. A side effect of the drug(s) is that he has lost strength for doing things like climbing stairs. Many of the buildings in this area went up long before elevators became common expectations in apt. houses. After over 22 years living with HIV+, he is still with us. He feels, like you do, well worth it just to be here. and he is right, the first surgery i had was supposed to be to remove both my eyes, at the last moment the doctor called my parents, collect at night to tell them not to put me in the hospital the next day, 2 days later he did a surgery on me that was the first of its knd outside the lab... now every day its done often as an out surgery and the off shoot is a lazar treatment... i got to see for almost 25 years of my life, and 20 of them pretty good.. i have the memories that go with that and can still describe DH's eyes if you want... the pain, the meds/side effects and the emotional cost of some of that really is worth it... and my parents paid for a chunck of it themselves, because dad's ins said i had a pre existing condition... and still i am grateful i got the treatment i did, without big money in my family and without welfare for my parents... i am truly blessed, I attribute my attitude towards life to a large part to realizing that i was way luckier than lucky, Lee On Jul 9, 12:33 am, "Stormmee" <rgr...@consolidated.net> wrote: > well i got to see years longer through medical intervention... and a very > odd thing of not healing well, i had over 18 surgeries and took some > experimental drugs, that was also at a price, the drug ruined my teeth and > has done some other damage... but in the end well worth the swap. I know someone who is HIV+. Years ago, he participated in a study of experimental drugs for this virus. A side effect of the drug(s) is that he has lost strength for doing things like climbing stairs. Many of the buildings in this area went up long before elevators became common expectations in apt. houses. After over 22 years living with HIV+, he is still with us. He feels, like you do, well worth it just to be here. Hmm. Ruin your teeth or help your eyesight. That's a difficult one. I can't beat you on surgeries, I had 7 or 8. Only 7 or 8, nothing like your 18. My hope is that my sight lasts out until I can retire at the earliest in 2013. > well i got to see years longer through medical intervention... and a very > odd thing of not healing well, i had over 18 surgeries and took some [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > Hmm. Ruin your teeth or help your eyesight. That's a difficult > one. > I can't beat you on surgeries, I had 7 or 8. Only 7 or 8, nothing > like your 18. > My hope is that my sight lasts out until I can retire at the > earliest in 2013. Just be sure to take the time to use some of what is left of it to enjoy and file away memories for you. It isn't just for work. Jo this is one of the best bits of advice ever, part of the reason i got Dog guides when i could still see relatively well from one eye was so i could not strain my vision and mind travelling which allowed me to look at more enjoyable things, Lee >> Hmm. Ruin your teeth or help your eyesight. That's a difficult one. >> I can't beat you on surgeries, I had 7 or 8. Only 7 or 8, nothing like [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Jo > I sound like you and Lee because I have sight problems myself, not > quite so serious though. Bad enough to occasionally need the help of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Tweed Do you take on tasks that are problematic in some way for the other workers to offset the favor? You know something you are good at and they are not? >> I sound like you and Lee because I have sight problems myself, not >> quite so serious though. Bad enough to occasionally need the help of [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > workers to offset the favor? You know something you are good at and they > are not? Yes, I do some things they could do, in return, I suppose. I need not do that, though. It is not a "favour" for colleagues to help someone who has become disabled, they are expected to do it. It is not a "favour" it's necessary. I am not expected to pay them back for it. Neither would they want me to. Tweed Tweed On Jul 8, 5:44 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > >> I sound like you and Lee because I have sight problems myself, not > >> quite so serious though. Bad enough to occasionally need the help of [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Tweed I suppose it's nice that you feel that way if the situation were reversed; it sounds like you'd be willing to take on various duties that they were no longer able to do. But I *do* think it's a favor. If I had extra duties added to my job description because a co-worker was no longer able to perform *her* job, I would expect to either be compensated, or have some of *my* workload reduced. Unless I had the extra time to do it anyway without interfering with what I was expected to do. Sherry On Jul 8, 5:44 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > "outsider" <not@this_address.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Tweed I suppose it's nice that you feel that way if the situation were reversed; it sounds like you'd be willing to take on various duties that they were no longer able to do. But I *do* think it's a favor. If I had extra duties added to my job description because a co-worker was no longer able to perform *her* job, I would expect to either be compensated, or have some of *my* workload reduced. Unless I had the extra time to do it anyway without interfering with what I was expected to do. I do not need much help at all. Just now and again with reading something I cannot see. It's a poor tale if my colleagues would expect to be "compensated" for this in any way. They happily help, why would they not? No-one has extra duties added to their job description, they help because they want to. They do not regard it as a favour and neither do I. Tweed On Jul 8, 6:59 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > On Jul 8, 5:44 pm, "Christina Websell" > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Again, it looks like different perspectives from different definitions. A "favor" to me, is something voluntarily done, with a cheerful attitude just because someone wants to help me out. And in turn I'd express appreciation. If helping someone out is not called a "favor" -- it sounds like the receipient feels entitled to the help. Sherry > On Jul 8, 6:59?pm, "Christina Websell" >> "Sherry" <sridd...@aol.com> wrote in message >>> "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote in >>>> Yes, I do some things they could do, in return, I suppose. I need not do >>>> that, though. >>>> It is not a "favour" for colleagues to help someone who has become >>>> disabled, they are expected to do it. It is not a "favour" it's >>>> necessary. I am not expected to pay them back for it. Neither would >>>> they want me to. >> I suppose it's nice that you feel that way if the situation were >> reversed; it sounds like you'd be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> have some of *my* workload reduced. Unless I had the extra time to do >> it anyway without interfering with what I was expected to do. >> I do not need much help at all. Just now and again with reading something >> I cannot see. It's a poor tale if my colleagues would expect to be >> "compensated" for this in any way. They happily help, why would they not? >> No-one has extra duties added to their job description, they help because >> they want to. They do not regard it as a favour and neither do I. > Again, it looks like different perspectives from different > definitions. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If helping someone out is not called a "favor" -- it sounds like the > receipient feels entitled to the help. Hmm. It sounds to me like you two are actually talking about different things, rather than having different perspectives on the same thing. I'm reading Christina's comments as saying that occasionally helping someone out who has visual difficulties is *culturally* expected, not that their employer expects it. And since it's not like she needs someone to sit with her several hours a day reading for her, but only needs help now and then to see a word, it doesn't really require much time or effort on her colleagues' part. I would imagine that if she needed enough help to have an impact on their workload, they *would* be compensated (or someone would be hired specifically to do that). I think of it more along the lines of, say, if something that I need occasionally happens to be stored on a high shelf, then I would expect that if I asked a taller person to get it for me, they would, if they could. And unless I'm constantly having to get things from that shelf, it wouldn't really constitute an extra workload for the people who stop for a moment to help me out. (Not the best metaphor, since if something I had to use all the time was kept on a high shelf, I'd insist it be moved down - but you get the idea, right?) If you saw a short person trying vainly to reach something on a high shelf at work, and a bunch of taller people were walking by with nobody offering to help, wouldn't you think, "What the hell is wrong with these people?" I imagine that's all Christina meant by "expectation". You just expect people to help each other out in those small ways because that's what decent people do. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. <snip> > If you saw a short person trying vainly to reach something on a > high shelf at work, and a bunch of taller people were walking by > with nobody offering to help, wouldn't you think, "What the hell > is wrong with these people?" I imagine that's all Christina meant > by "expectation". You just expect people to help each other out > in those small ways because that's what decent people do. I'd still call that a favour. It's nice if people help me out, and I try to help others out, and of course 'decent' people try to help each other. But this kind of assistance is not requested nor, really, expected, so it's a favour. If (as happens reasonably regularly), I can't reach something on a high shelf in a store, and I ask the clerk to do it, or he does it without being asked, he's just doing his job, although of course since I try to be polite, I'll thank him. If another customer does it, with or without being asked, he's doing me a favour since I don't expect other customers to do the work of the store staff. Similarly, if at work, I'm asked or I volunteer to do something outside my job description - help someone with a computer application or cover for someone in an emergency - I'm doing a favour, as it the person doing the same for me. Not expected, not required, always appreciated, but still a favour. If I am told by my supervisor that I am to provide computer support or cover for someone - that's not a favour, even if I am thanked for it. It's just part of my job. The difference may be a matter of usage, but when Tweed said the co-worker had begun to help after a meeting with the boss, I assumed the assistance, however minor, was part of the co-worker's job and therefore not a favour. Cheryl > > On Jul 8, 6:59?pm, "Christina Websell" > [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > by "expectation". You just expect people to help each other out > in those small ways because that's what decent people do. Exactly. If you see a person that is not managing it's not so difficult to help them out. , is it? My personal bugbear is sight problems but there are lots of other disabilities that could do with some support. I just hate it when some people say "well, you're not completely blind, are you?" Like I should be grateful for that. "not completely blind" God I hate that expression. A friend knew a man in her neighborhood who had been a widower for about 5 years and she wanted me to meet him. She explained that she told him about my sight but that I was "not completely blind." Well, he decided he didn't want to meet me. That was fine but, by the time she explained to me what she said I didn't want to meet me either. God it makes me love my critters here even more. >> > On Jul 8, 6:59?pm, "Christina Websell" >> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > I just hate it when some people say "well, you're not completely blind, > are you?" Like I should be grateful for that. > "not completely blind" God I hate that expression. A friend knew a man in > her neighborhood who had been a widower for about 5 years and she wanted me > to meet him. She explained that she told him about my sight but that I was > "not completely blind." Well, he decided he didn't want to meet me. That > was fine but, by the time she explained to me what she said I didn't want to > meet me either. God it makes me love my critters here even more. LOL You have posted before about how you love to be "fixed up" with "dates" by people you know who have good intentions but poor judgement. It has nothing to do with blindness IMO as I am the same way. A lot of that went on in FL but I absolutely forbid my relatives here to even think about it. If I had grown up here it might be different but group socialization is what goes on in the here and now.. Lots less effort. > Exactly. If you see a person that is not managing it's not so difficult to > help them out. , is it? > My personal bugbear is sight problems but there are lots of other > disabilities that could do with some support. > I just hate it when some people say "well, you're not completely blind, are > you?" Like I should be grateful for that. Well, yes, but to be fair, I've known and been related to some people with obvious physical disabilities who HATED it when someone assumed that because they were struggling to do something, they'd welcome a bit of help. It's sometimes difficult to find the balance between being helpful and taking over. Cheryl Cheryl wrote: >> Exactly. If you see a person that is not managing it's not so difficult to >> help them out. , is it? >> My personal bugbear is sight problems but there are lots of other >> disabilities that could do with some support. >> I just hate it when some people say "well, you're not completely blind, are >> you?" Like I should be grateful for that. > Well, yes, but to be fair, I've known and been related to some people > with obvious physical disabilities who HATED it when someone assumed > that because they were struggling to do something, they'd welcome a bit > of help. > It's sometimes difficult to find the balance between being helpful and > taking over. The most polite (and effective) thing to do would be to *ask* if the person needs some help. Communication goes a long way! If they want help, and if you can do so, then help. If they say no, I certainly wouldn't insist, as that might offend them. I agree that too often, people assume someone with a visible disability always has to have other people doing stuff for them, and that's not true. Although I don't have any disabilities, I sometimes resent someone trying to help me every time I have a bit of difficulty doing something. (I'm talking mostly about manual activities such as untangling a knot or opening something that's stuck closed, etc - but sometimes this happens with things like trying to find something on the web or fixing a computer problem.) It bothers me less when a stranger does it, because I can't expect them to know how I feel about such things. But I have a friend who, the moment I appear to be even slightly struggling to do something, starts reaching over to grab the item from me because I'm obviously having trouble and therefore require her help. This *really* irritates me, and she knows that, but she can't seem to help herself. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. > Cheryl wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > therefore require her help. This *really* irritates me, and she knows > that, but she can't seem to help herself. Did ypu ever think that perhaps SHE needs to be needed? MLB >> Cheryl wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> knows >> that, but she can't seem to help herself. I just watched this weeks episode of "The Listener" a Canadian television series. The guest character was a blind Chinese young woman whose brother was murdered. The title character reads minds and was trying to solve her brother's murder. The way he dealt with letting her do thing on her own vs. asking to be allowed to help her when necessary was extremely well done. Jo I work part time in a big box store. When I see someone shopping that has a disibility I ask them if they need help finding anything just as I would any customer. If the say they need help I will stay with them if not I let them shop on their own. One day I helped a woman in a wheel chair find things she needed to make a raised garden bed and she did have me take things off the shelves for her to see. It's a fine line trying to know how to help some one with a disibility and not be pushy. SignatureAnn in Connecticut see my cats at http://www.flickr.com/photos/ann791/sets/ read Sam's blog at http://kittens-3.blogspot.com/ * * * >> Cheryl wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Did ypu ever think that perhaps SHE needs to be needed? MLB most people will tell you what they need if you ask, the worst for blindness is the bathroom... "do you need help" I say, no thanks i got it, just was going slow so i don't mow anyone else down... I want to say, NO thanks i have been going and wiping on my own now for almost fifty years... they usually say, oh ok..but sometimes... I get grabbed and shoved int of course the handicaped stall, and then... I'll hold the door closed for you, like i can't lock the stupid thing... Have i ever mentioned i am 5'4" but because of the way i am built i have short legs? so the HC stool usually puts me completely off the floor, except for mmy toes, NOT comfortable... and i know i have to be polite, for one reason and one only i am nice because some day there might be a newly blinded person who really does need the help, Lee >I work part time in a big box store. When I see someone shopping that has a >disibility I ask them if they need help finding anything just as I would [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >> >> Did ypu ever think that perhaps SHE needs to be needed? MLB >> I have a friend who, the moment >> I appear to be even slightly struggling to do something, starts reaching >> over to grab the item from me because I'm obviously having trouble and >> therefore require her help. This *really* irritates me, and she knows >> that, but she can't seem to help herself. > Did ypu ever think that perhaps SHE needs to be needed? MLB Oh, absolutely! She has classic co-dependency behaviors (trying to "fix" and rescue other people, giving unsolicited advice, believing that her job in life is to solve other people's problems, etc). I'm all for people being helpful and generous, but only when help and generosity is welcome. I think this friend does this compulsively, so I don't yell at her about it, but I do have to remind her all the time that, just because I'm talking about a problem in my life, that doesn't mean I want advice. Maybe I just want a sympathetic ear, or a different perspective, or a place to vent. When I'm ready to take action about a problem, I take action, but often times, I have to vent feelings about it first, so I'm clear-headed enough to think. When someone tries to get me to "*Do* something about it!" before I'm ready to, I feel disrespected, like the person thinks all I want to do is whine and complain, and doesn't believe I'll do anything unless they kick my butt. That's insulting. Also, when I need help with something, I'm perfectly capable of asking for it. I don't mind when someone offers help, but if I say "no, thanks", they should respect that. SignatureJoyce ^..^ To email me, remove the XXX from my user name. one of the reasons among many that Gramby and i are friends is because we have a code of conversation of sorts... they include: I am calling you to bitch/wine/ nvent... then ensuing tirade... thanks... or I am calling you to just listen to this... or ok now i need your thoughts about/// or am i being unreasonable... gives a context up front as Gramby and i can fall into fixing stuff but at least with each other this prefix if you will helps both of us, Lee > >> I have a friend who, the moment > >> I appear to be even slightly struggling to do something, starts [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > asking for it. I don't mind when someone offers help, but if I say > "no, thanks", they should respect that. And God knows there are days when I need fixed!!!! Wonder why Dr. Phil never answers my emails, just kidding. > one of the reasons among many that Gramby and i are friends is because we > have a code of conversation of sorts... they include: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> asking for it. I don't mind when someone offers help, but if I say >> "no, thanks", they should respect that. the fact that you know there is a fine line between the two things gets you 3/4 of the way better than most people, Lee >> Exactly. If you see a person that is not managing it's not so difficult >> to help them out. , is it? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Cheryl the loss of any function is usually devastating if it is your loss, and it really can't be compared to another person's loss, and just because its not as bad as someone else's is no cause for gratefulness, Lee, who hates these comments from others... "well it could be worse you could"" insert stupid comment here" >> > On Jul 8, 6:59?pm, "Christina Websell" >> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > I just hate it when some people say "well, you're not completely blind, > are you?" Like I should be grateful for that. > On Jul 8, 6:59 pm, "Christina Websell" > <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > Sherry I originally thought the other people/person were unhappy helping out once in a while. That is how I read the meeting with the boss followed by it was no longer a problem. If the coworker is happy to help then there is no issue. more like professional coutesy, Lee > On Jul 8, 5:44 pm, "Christina Websell" > <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Tweed On Jul 4, 2:55 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > Surely you know that all blind people are also stupid. It's not possible > for them to tell you if they would like sugar in their tea, it has to be > asked of the sighted person who accompanies them. "Does she want sugar?" We were once in a restaurant and the waiter came up and asked for my order then added "And what does he want?" Dave said "I'll have the fish" and the waiter was so shocked he dropped the plates he was carrying. Another time we were in a steak house and the chef said to Dave "I don't want to cause offence but would you like the steak cut up? My brother has something like this and he likes me to cut his steak up"- fine, no problem at home Dave has me cut his steak up because he can't use a knife and fork at the same time (well not without wedging the steak knife under his chin so it stays steady while he saws at the meat with the knife( that's okay- believe me the steak I had last week- I wish someone had done it for me!!!!) There are ways to make allowances that are not patronising or downright stupid! Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs On Jul 4, 2:55 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > Surely you know that all blind people are also stupid. It's not > possible > for them to tell you if they would like sugar in their tea, it has > to be > asked of the sighted person who accompanies them. "Does she want > sugar?" We were once in a restaurant and the waiter came up and asked for my order then added "And what does he want?" Dave said "I'll have the fish" and the waiter was so shocked he dropped the plates he was carrying. Another time we were in a steak house and the chef said to Dave "I don't want to cause offence but would you like the steak cut up? My brother has something like this and he likes me to cut his steak up"- fine, no problem at home Dave has me cut his steak up because he can't use a knife and fork at the same time (well not without wedging the steak knife under his chin so it stays steady while he saws at the meat with the knife( that's okay- believe me the steak I had last week- I wish someone had done it for me!!!!) There are ways to make allowances that are not patronising or downright stupid! ******************* Some peoples parents have managed to teach them the find art of being helpful without being condescending. Its also possible to ask to have something cut in the kitchen before it is served. I've done that a few times when I really didn't want to have to order something I could manage to cut on my own and when my hands hurt so bad that managing a fork was enough. Jo > On Jul 4, 2:55 pm, "Christina Websell" > <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > hurt so bad that managing a fork was enough. > Jo I'm not sure whether it's true everywhere, but often when one orders fresh trout in a restaurant, it comes intact on a plate, with he dead fish's eye staring up at you. (Enough to make me lose my appetite, that's for sure!) I've learned to ask that they remove the head before serving it to me. > Surely you know that all blind people are also stupid. It's not possible > for them to tell you if they would like sugar in their tea, it has to be > asked of the sighted person who accompanies them. "Does she want sugar?" > > Tweed Elderly people, too - especially those who use a walker or other aid to mobility. I remember once, when I was visiting my 90+ mother in Minnesota, I drove her to an appointment with a new dentist. (Ordinarily, she would have taken the bus.) Understand, I saw my mother maybe a couple of weeks, once a year, when I spent my vacation with her. However, the dentist's nurse INSISTED upon asking ME all the new patient questions she should have addressed to my Mom. "Does she.... (whatever)?" Despite my repeated answers of "How should *I* know, I live in California, ask HER!" the stupid woman continued to ignore my mother and address her questions to me. >> Surely you know that all blind people are also stupid. It's not >> possible for them to tell you if they would like sugar in their [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the stupid woman continued to ignore my mother and address her > questions to me. You just have to believe anyone that stupid can't help it. If nothing else it makes it slightly easier to tolerate. Jo >> Elderly people, too - especially those who use a walker or other aid to >> mobility. I remember once, when I was visiting my 90+ mother in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You just have to believe anyone that stupid can't help it. If nothing > else it makes it slightly easier to tolerate. And we have the opposite problem. Rob honestly can't answer a lot of the questions that they need to know and some places have had fits when I grabbed the information paperwork and filled it out. Pam S. >>> Elderly people, too - especially those who use a walker or other >>> aid to mobility. I remember once, when I was visiting my 90+ [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Pam S. There is either something about this town, or I'm more intimidating than I think. It is mind boggling the forms I have filled out in front of witnesses and signed with various appropriate names, and they added and signed a check with my own name and no one bats an eye. Medical, school, sports teams, tax stuff, government records, you name it. Grandma's get away with murder in this world. Jo this what will she have combined with the effect my DH has on food servers is an almost impossiblity to me getting food, sometimes i think its just not worth eating out, if they notice me at all then its what will she have, Lee > Surely you know that all blind people are also stupid. It's not possible > for them to tell you if they would like sugar in their tea, it has to be [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> >> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > Yeah, and did you know that ALL blind people also have hearing > problems. Even when I am working, people tend to yell at me. On [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I say, glad my animal friends don't give a flying fig so long as > they get fed. I'm with you there. And for the record, it doesn't help to shout at deaf people either. Its the detail we aren't getting, not the volume. Days I'm fine, and days I'd like to kill my spouse who should know better but will still talk to me with his back turned or with his hand or arm covering his face where I can't see his lips move. For the record, I have been pleasantly surprised at the number or people who can and do try their best to assist me. It really makes me feel good when its a teenager or other very young person. There are more nice and helpful people out there than I ever knew. Some of the rest just don't think. Jo the worst part of this is that working with the public, its a new crop of ignorance every day... some days i just have to leave the service floor, and work in the office because i really could be way too rude... and when i get rude it is usually vulgar, and i just know someone would complain to the powerful if i said... get out you are too stupid and too creepy to use this machine, Lee > Yeah, and did you know that ALL blind people also have hearing problems. > Even when I am working, people tend to yell at me. On days when I have [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > the worst part of this is that working with the public, its a new crop > of ignorance every day... some days i just have to leave the service > floor, and work in the office because i really could be way too rude... > and when i get rude it is usually vulgar, and i just know someone would > complain to the powerful if i said... get out you are too stupid and too > creepy to use this machine, Lee I've told Nancy multiple times that it's probably a good thing that I am phobic about crowds and strangers. If I was to start speaking my mind in public I would either get beat up or locked up all too often. I have no tolerance for stupid people. >> the worst part of this is that working with the public, its a new crop >> of ignorance every day... some days i just have to leave the service [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > public I would either get beat up or locked up all too often. I have no > tolerance for stupid people. I told Rob the same thing the other day. Great minds and all that, I suppose Pam S. I ran into something today I was at total loss to handle. Finally left the service floor and let the tourism people deal with it. There were 70 people and their bus driver. All from the Congo. Te driver was the ONLY one who spoke understandable English/ What my Granny called Pidgin English. I could not understand a word they said. The tourism people finally figured I was at a total loss so they came and helped. Even someone who spoke French could not understand their dialect of French. >>> the worst part of this is that working with the public, its a new crop >>> of ignorance every day... some days i just have to leave the service [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Pam S. >I ran into something today I was at total loss to handle. Finally >left the service floor and let the tourism people deal with it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >they came and helped. Even someone who spoke French could not >understand their dialect of French. Now that is a group that is going to have an 'interesting' visit in the United States. I hope they have tour guides at some of their destinations they can communicate with. Jo They had been, or were going to some sort of religious convention. Hope they have Interpreters . They were dressed in native clothing, Tunics and long tops with matching pants. Interesting but frustrating. Funny all those people and no one spoke enough English to be of help. I wondered what would happen if an accident or such happened. >>I ran into something today I was at total loss to handle. Finally left >>the service floor and let the tourism people deal with it. There were 70 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jo one of the similarites between you and DH, he is pretty tolerant, except where stupid is concerned, he needs a shirt that says"NO!!! I don't do stupid!!!" in littler print, "so please remove yourself from my presence\\Lee >> the worst part of this is that working with the public, its a new crop >> of ignorance every day... some days i just have to leave the service [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > public I would either get beat up or locked up all too often. I have no > tolerance for stupid people. > one of the similarites between you and DH, he is pretty tolerant, except > where stupid is concerned, he needs a shirt that says"NO!!! I don't do [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "so please remove yourself from my presence\\Lee I want that shirt too. The only prejudice that I have is that against willfully stupid people. I just can't deal with them in a rational manner. Pam S I heard once that ignorance can not be helped but, STUPIDITY, goes clear to the bone. >> one of the similarites between you and DH, he is pretty tolerant, except >> where stupid is concerned, he needs a shirt that says"NO!!! I don't do [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pam S it seems we have yet another thing in common, btw, here is your stupid story of the week so the lightining ate the computer and modem, but we didn't know about the modem at first, DH goes out and gets, 2 computers... I didn't need grocery money and the cats had theirs so whatever, he comes home and starts the setting up process, at which time the modem is found to be dead... he calls constipated... it must be our computer, ... oh you just got a new one... it must be your lines... oh you checked and its not coming to the house... ok time passes, its the modem... DH has such a reputation that when he appeared at the office the woman got up from her desk seeing the old modem in his hand, ran around her desk shoved the new modem into his hand, snached the old one and all but shoved him out the door... well shock of all shocks, its a wireless modem... good, its free and no signing your life away for it... good, DH comes home, follows the instructions explicity, five times... then he checks the phone line, all connections, then calls... the tec says "oh you followed the directions? well that is why its not working, do this..." In the thirty years i have known my DH and every manner of disaster we have been through, i never saw him that close to having a brain anerism. I won't write here what he said to the tec or to me later to vent, this is after a family group. Lee >> one of the similarites between you and DH, he is pretty tolerant, except >> where stupid is concerned, he needs a shirt that says"NO!!! I don't do [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pam S this is the number one of visually impaired people, in some ways, being totally blind is easier to explain, i would rather have the sight back, but it is very nice not having to explain "i can see some but not that"... Lee > I get so sick, sometimes, that some colleagues do not understand about my > visual disability. They do not seem to understand that is not about [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] >>>>>> stepped a little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also >>>>>> unpredictably violent?" She excused herself. I just wish fully sighted people could understand. They never will, of course. It can cause embarrassment. I said to a colleague "I like your dress" She told me it was a top and skirt. I could not see the dividing line between them as they were matched for colour. There are all sorts of visual impairments, and you are right, Lee, it's easier to explain being totally blind. I am lucky. I was at risk of losing my central vision. It was saved at a price. I cannot see in the dark and my visual acuity is shot. I'm like a hermit after 5 pm in the winter. Tweed > this is the number one of visually impaired people, in some ways, being > totally blind is easier to explain, i would rather have the sight back, [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] >>>>>>> stepped a little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also >>>>>>> unpredictably violent?" She excused herself. And, being albino, I see better when the sun is down or, on cloudy days. I wish people could understand.......oh well, never mind, what is, is, and hasn't changed in forever. >I just wish fully sighted people could understand. They never will, of >course. It can cause embarrassment. I said to a colleague "I like your [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] >>>>>>>> stepped a little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also >>>>>>>> unpredictably violent?" She excused herself. I can't offer any hope for the night blindness but i can offer hope on the other things, in time you will "learn to pass" in the next event of admiring a colleague's clothing you will say, "that's a nice color" or where did you get your clothes, I like that... passing is a weird thing but everyone with limited vision at some point does it, my number one "passing phrase" when i could still see some I would always say "i don't see good " instead of "visually impared" or partially blind" Lee >I just wish fully sighted people could understand. They never will, of >course. It can cause embarrassment. I said to a colleague "I like your [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] >>>>>>>> stepped a little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also >>>>>>>> unpredictably violent?" She excused herself. When I have used the term "passing" people usually find it funny; They think of it as a racial word not one connected with any other thing. It works until you get in one of those rooms with all the damn mirrors then, all bets are off!!!!!! >I can't offer any hope for the night blindness but i can offer hope on the >other things, in time you will "learn to pass" in the next event of [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] >>>>>>>>> stepped a little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also >>>>>>>>> unpredictably violent?" She excused herself. that stupid hotel in Springfield IL with the room of mirros even screwed my dog guide, Lee > When I have used the term "passing" people usually find it funny; They > think of it as a racial word not one connected with any other thing. It [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] >>>>>>>>>> stepped a little closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also >>>>>>>>>> unpredictably violent?" She excused herself. . Once a person gave me a > whole lecture about an ethnic group I happen to belong to, telling me all > "their" bad characteristics. I looked right at her, stepped a little > closer, and said, "Did you know that we're also unpredictably violent?" > She excused herself. Oh, do tell what ethnic group you belong to, if I can't use the phrase myself some of my friends might be able to if they share your ethnicity ;-) Tweed > . Once a person gave me a >> whole lecture about an ethnic group I happen to belong to, telling me all [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > myself some of my friends might be able to if they share your ethnicity > ;-) I'm Irish and Sicilian, but I strongly recommend the phrase for *any* ethnic group that ever finds itself on the receiving end of such a ridiculous lecture. ;) SignatureTheresa and Dante Stinky Forever: http://pets.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh >> . Once a person gave me a >>> whole lecture about an ethnic group I happen to belong to, telling me [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ethnic group that ever finds itself on the receiving end of such a > ridiculous lecture. ;) Your father was Irish and your mother Sicilian? Very interesting mix ;-) My father was Scottish and my mother English. I can never decide who I want to win when Scotland is playing England at any sport. Tweed I did this once when someone was standing in earshot trying to tell their friends about Albinism. She went thought the whole thing about skin color, eye color and all of that. I was embarrassed, Was 16 at the time and talking to a nice looking guy who worked in the store. He was embarrassed as it was his mother. I took all I could of it, turned and walked right up to her and said "And, do you know that if angered they sometimes dismember people starting with their tongues?" Never, to this day went back to that store. > . Once a person gave me a >> whole lecture about an ethnic group I happen to belong to, telling me all [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Tweed > I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. > He wanted to be white, Why? Oh Christina, this one would take a book-length study. The thing is that many people have discontents that they learn to live with, even conquer, and go on to some reasonable happiness. He had enough money to try to change all the unchangeable things that most of us just live with, and get all the things that most of us shouldn't have. SignatureTheresa and Dante Stinky Forever: http://pets.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh I heard an interesting commentary on him last night on the radio, the theory wasn't that he wanted to be white, but rather that he want to NOT look like his father who according to the speaker he hated, and his father also teased him about his noese, supposedly the point was that the older he got the more he looked like his dad so the more he tried to change it... how sad is that? LEE >> I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. >> He wanted to be white, Why? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > try to change all the unchangeable things that most of us just live with, > and get all the things that most of us shouldn't have. >> I'm alway sad when some dies but I'm not worried about this one. >> He wanted to be white, Why? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > try to change all the unchangeable things that most of us just live with, > and get all the things that most of us shouldn't have. We often want what we don't have. I am very aware that my German friend N would like to be English but I tell her just enough English things to keep her happy and ensure she remains German. Tweed |
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