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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / May 2008Moral Question?
As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. I'm taking her to TED tomorrow (and abusing the credit card) because her night time opera is too much for any of us to take, and her passive/agressive thing is confusing Suki no end (ie, she yowls for a boy-cat's attentions and then hisses & baps when he* come to close). The idea is for her to be spayed, innoculated and otherwise poked where the sun don't shine. One little hitch: if they find a microchip, they are legally bound to try to contact the owners. She still *technically* belongs to them. So, the question is, if they find a microchip, do I delay the spay? The reason being I can't afford all this vetinary stuff if she isn't my cat, and no way do I want to spend the $300 or so I can ill afford if I just have to surrender her to irresponsible human beings a few days later who could very well just abandon her again. Grak, evil people. Couldn't they just surrender her to the RSPCA? Its free... (Come to think of it, why didn't I take her to the RSPCA as a found animal, and put myself first on the "adopt if owners can't be found" list?) Yowie > As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Yowie Yowie, I dunno where they stick those microchips in Oz but in USA I thought they put them around cats' ears....maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you could poke around her ears and try to see if you see anything or feel anything other than cat ears? I doubt microchip would be stuck in ahem, private whatta-you- call-em "bits", imagine a vet looking for one in an injured, angry patient, LOL. What do you think? Kumani and Tyche are microchipped around the shoulder blade. The chip is invisible. If you are forced to surrender Shadow, I would delay the spay. Proceed with the spay when Shadow's stupid people don't answer the vet's call, or say they don't want her any more. But it seems to me that if she's not spayed, she's likely not chipped either. Who would pay for a chip and not pay for a spay?? I think taking her to the vet and taking the risk is a better idea than not vetting her. Good luck (and hopefully she's not chipped and gone from her stupid humes* forever!) --Fil *Nocturne invented this word as a "Species-al" slur and I think it applies here! > Yowie, I dunno where they stick those microchips in Oz but in USA I > thought > they put them around cats' ears....maybe I'm wrong. On May 18, 8:26 pm, "Yowie" <yowie9644.DIESPAM...@yahoo.com.au> wrote: > As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Yowie Yowie, I dunno where they stick those microchips in Oz but in USA I thought they put them around cats' ears....maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you could poke around her ears and try to see if you see anything or feel anything other than cat ears? I doubt microchip would be stuck in ahem, private whatta-you- call-em "bits", imagine a vet looking for one in an injured, angry patient, LOL. What do you think? They put them in the cats shoulder or back part of the neck On May 18, 8:49 pm, "Matthew" <iamacatslave...@proudtoserve.com> wrote: > On May 18, 8:26 pm, "Yowie" <yowie9644.DIESPAM...@yahoo.com.au> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well, you know I've xrayed when I was working pets for stranger reasons than this one...including that unfriendly ferret that hissed and bared his teeth at me while my pal the CT tech held him down while I took a film of his abdomen to see if he had eaten something metal....do you know any xray techs, Yowie? That chip may be 'invisible' but I bet it would show up on an xray....if you know any techs you could sneak her in at night where they work.... > On May 18, 8:26 pm, "Yowie" <yowie9644.DIESPAM...@yahoo.com.au> wrote: >> As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > They put them in the cats shoulder or back part of the neck Boyfriend has his between his shoulder blades, on his back, so to speak. > As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Yowie I think it would be perfectly moral to go ahead with the spay. (keeping in mind that the US has such a horrid overpopulation problem). But the *practical* thing to do, is to delay. $300 is a chunk o' change, and I'm not sure I'd do it, either, for that kind of money. (If I were wealthy, it would be another deal altogether). I suspect she isn't chipped. Again, speaking of experience with homeless animals here in the US, generally the people who chip pets are the people who care very much about them and are responsible pet owners. If she belonged to said responsible pet owner, she'd already be "done." Good luck, Yowie. Hope it goes well. You're doing a good thing. Sherry you could still take her, or get her spayed, pay the bill and tell the new owners that you will only release her if they pony up the cash for the spay, and a boarding fee, make it half what the vet charges, and then they will freak and let you keep a=her, Lee > As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Yowie Don't tell the vet that she is an abandoned cat, he/she will assume that the cat is yours and ask no questions about it. If your vet already knows then maybe find another who does not know the situation to do the spay. They don't routinely scan microchips anyway. Dewi > Don't tell the vet that she is an abandoned cat, he/she will assume > that the cat is yours and ask no questions about it. If your vet > already knows then maybe find another who does not know the situation > to do the spay. They don't routinely scan microchips anyway. Hmmm. I ask myself if it was *your* cat that may have been found (with a microchip) by someone else if you'd be giving the same advice. I think you wouldn't. I was desperate to find where Boyfriend had come from when he appeared here in case his owners were missing him - but he didn't have a microchip and advertising locally and on radio didn't turn up his home. So now he is microchipped to my address. It is totally unethical and immoral IMO to try and avoid the fact a cat is microchipped no matter how much you'd like to keep it. It's a duty to get it back home if at all possible. If I turned up at my vets with a recently found or adopted cat, they would scan it. I wouldn't keep it a secret from them because I wanted to keep it. I'd rather it got back to its onetruehome. Tweed >> Don't tell the vet that she is an abandoned cat, he/she will assume >> that the cat is yours and ask no questions about it. If your vet [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Tweed Even though Shadow had been living in my garden for several years and I was almost sure he was a feral, I still asked the vet to scan for a chip when he went for his snip. Of course he didn't have one, at some time in the future he'll get one, he's become such a loving cat I'd hate to lose him now.  SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy, Bagheera & Shadow) Cats leave pawprints on your heart http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk >>> Don't tell the vet that she is an abandoned cat, he/she will assume >>> that the cat is yours and ask no questions about it. If your vet [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > the future he'll get one, he's become such a loving cat I'd hate to lose > him now. It was quite a while after I had Boyfie snipped before I took him for his microchip. Like you, he is so loving now I didn't want to lose him either. IIRC it cost about 20 quid-ish. I know for a fact that he was well-loved before he arrived here. What a pity that his previous owners hadn't had him microchipped, they'd have got him back. My gain I suppose but it does cross my mind now and again that they worry about where he is and what has happened to him. I wish I could tell them how fine he is, out on rat patrol, plenty food, sleeping on spare bed.. Tweed Yowie said the cat was abandoned so I no longer think it's a moral issue. Dewi > Yowie said the cat was abandoned so I no longer think it's a moral > issue. I disagree. Yowie has said that the cat proved to be already spayed. Maybe the dorks that abandoned her this time just "found" her once if she escaped from a loving home. There is no doubt in my mind that a if a microchip is found, it must be respected and all attempts must be made to get the cat back to where it belongs. If she doesn't have a microchip that's very different. I didn't like your idea of trying to avoid it. What if my Boyfie got into a van delivering near here and was taken away and then he gets out a hundred miles away? (I suspect this is how he came) I would be crazy to find him, and I would hope his microchip would let me get him back. If someone had him and chose to ignore his microchip. Well..may they have very itchy skin so they will never sleep again. Alternatively, what if the dorks who left her in the apartment are the legal owners, and they take the cat and dump it again. The chances of that happening are high. They may have gotten her spayed then after some time decided she was too inconvenient etc. I understand your reasoning, but don't agree with it either. Although I miss my cat Mango (she went missing and never returned) I would be so relieved and happy if she was with another loving human family rather than roughing it and suffering in the wilderness or trapped in an apartment or awaiting euthanasia at the local shelter. IMO the cat’s wellbeing is far more important than the emotions of any human. This including any hypothetical owners whose cat got stolen by those idiots who left Shadow in the apartment. I think Shadow is lucky to be alive and living with Yowie so why put her at risk again. Anyhow, I’m glad Shadow recovered from her surgery and is on her way to living a life of safety and comfort with Yowie. Dewi On May 24, 5:31 am, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > I disagree. > Yowie has said that the cat proved to be already spayed. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If someone had him and chose to ignore his microchip. Well..may they have > very itchy skin so they will never sleep again. Alternatively, what if the dorks who left her in the apartment are the legal owners, and they take the cat and dump it again. The chances of that happening are high. They may have gotten her spayed then after some time decided she was too inconvenient etc. I understand your reasoning, but don't agree with it either. --------- I don't mind if you don't agree. You may well be right. Maybe she was "truly" dumped but there is something in me that says you must look for a microchip and not try and ignore it if there is one. This was supposed to be a moral question, and it is not moral or ethical to me to try and avoid noticing a microchip. Boyfie got lost from his home once and came here. He was not microchipped and if he had been, I would have returned him. Now he is microchipped to here. Imagine how I would feel now if he got into a lorry that had it's tailgate down near here and got taken away all over the country and got out where he ended up and no-one would respect his microchip because someone would just like to keep him. Everyone would like to have Boyfriend, he's the perfect cat ;-) >> Yowie said the cat was abandoned so I no longer think it's a moral >> issue. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If someone had him and chose to ignore his microchip. Well..may they > have very itchy skin so they will never sleep again. When I drove a delivery van i checked for cats before I drove off, more than once I found cat footprints on the boxes, I only found one cat and lived at the house I delivered to. On another occasion I was collecting up the /empty/ boxes, one felt surprisingly heavy, inside was a black kitten. SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy, Bagheera & Shadow) Cats leave pawprints on your heart http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk >>> Yowie said the cat was abandoned so I no longer think it's a >>> moral [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > occasion I was collecting up the /empty/ boxes, one felt > surprisingly heavy, inside was a black kitten. One of the times our oldest son moved back home (again), he managed to bring his roommate's kitten with him in a basket of clothes -- the little guy had crawled in there for a nap :) Took us a while to realize he was here though, he was all black and our cat is all black.. at one point I know I saw Dustie in the living room, then I went in the basement and there she was again! Or... hmm, that cat looks kinda small.... yikes! It's not Dustie! It was fun until the roommate decided he didn't want the kitten back and we had to find him a forever home. all's well that ends well though, the little guy's been very happy in his new home, and his slaves have been very happy with the new addition to their family :) S I should have added this to my previous post, but I’ll add it here instead. As Yowie wrote, she doesn’t want to spend all that money on a cat who could be returned to someone who may just abandon her again. Hence the previous owners are incredibly irresponsible. IMO it would be really negligent to return Shadow to her previous owners. Seeing as it is compulsory to microchip cats in Australia, just because a cat has a chip doesn't mean that there is a loving human waiting for it. I myself lost a cat who was microchipped and desperately wished that someone would return her back to me. In spite of this experience I still think it would be wrong and unethical to send an animal back into the hands of someone who didn't care about it... microchipped or not. Dewi On May 21, 9:01 am, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Don't tell the vet that she is an abandoned cat, he/she will assume > > that the cat is yours and ask no questions about it. If your vet [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Tweed It may be that if she is microchipped, the vet may refuse to do the spey until the 'owners' have been contacted. > One little hitch: if they find a microchip, they are legally bound to try to > contact the owners. She still *technically* belongs to them. I think it's extremely unlikely they'll find a chip TBH - if they do, I would delay the spay, ensure that Shadow is kept in, give the owners a chance to respond and if not then go ahead next week. Deb. Signaturehttp://www.scientific-art.com "He looked a fierce and quarrelsome cat, but claw he never would; He only bit the ones he loved, because they tasted good." S. Greenfield > One little hitch: if they find a microchip, they are legally bound to try to > contact the owners. She still *technically* belongs to them. > So, the question is, if they find a microchip, do I delay the spay? > The reason being I can't afford all this vetinary stuff if she isn't my cat, > and no way do I want to spend the $300 or so I can ill afford if I just have > to surrender her to irresponsible human beings a few days later who could > very well just abandon her again. Yikes, $300 for a spay? Is that normal? In the US, charging half that amount would be considered expensive. Especially since it's not hard at all to find services that will do it very cheap or even free, as a way of encouraging people to neuter their pets. I don't know if Australia has the same kind of cat overpopulation problem we have here, but I do know that cats are a threat to the environment in Australia, so I would expect neutering to be a popular idea. Of course, just because that would be logical, doesn't mean that's what's happening. But if it is, maybe you could find an organization that does inexpensive neutering? Some rescue groups in the US provide coupons for low prices at participating vets, maybe you could look into that? I had Roxy spayed for $20 using such a coupon, and I'm not even poor. They just want people to neuter their pets! SignatureJoyce To email me, remove the triple-X from my user name. ^..^ >> One little hitch: if they find a microchip, they are legally bound >> to try to contact the owners. She still *technically* belongs to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > at all to find services that will do it very cheap or even free, as a > way of encouraging people to neuter their pets. $150 for a regular spay, $190 for spay whilst in season (she's in season). Plus vaccination, $65, and check-up $40 and there's there $300. > I don't know if Australia has the same kind of cat overpopulation > problem we have here, but I do know that cats are a threat to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > spayed for $20 using such a coupon, and I'm not even poor. They just > want people to neuter their pets! I could get the humane society to give me a discount but I woudl have to lie about being on a pension or otherwise suffering financial hardship. Whilst money is always *tight* around here, I don't think we deserve such charity which should go to people who really *need* it. If I was really concerned, I could have taken her to the RSPCA as a stray animal, and hten put msyelf on the list to adopt her. The adoption fee is only $140, and that includes spay, worming, first vaccination and a vet check. But by doing that, there was no way I could gurantee that I would be the one to adopt her. Its the 'sucker' across the forehead, I think. Yowie > $150 for a regular spay, $190 for spay whilst in season (she's in season). > Plus vaccination, $65, and check-up $40 and there's there $300. I guess you don't want to wait until she's through with her heat period? Never mind, you don't have to answer that, I know what you'll say. :) >> Some rescue groups in >> the US provide coupons for low prices at participating vets, maybe >> you could look into that? I had Roxy >> spayed for $20 using such a coupon, and I'm not even poor. They just >> want people to neuter their pets! > I could get the humane society to give me a discount but I woudl have to lie > about being on a pension or otherwise suffering financial hardship. Whilst > money is always *tight* around here, I don't think we deserve such charity > which should go to people who really *need* it. I agree, and I just want to say that I wouldn't have taken it from someone else who needed it more either, but they were handing the things out like candy. In this case, it wasn't about financial circumstances, it was about getting people to have their pets neutered. I didn't have to lie about my situation or anything - they didn't care. (I had adopted Roxy from a shelter that was about 50 miles away, but I wanted to support the no-kill shelter. She hadn't been spayed yet because she had a bad cold - they were waiting until she recovered before doing any surgery. But they told me I could bring her back when she was well, and they'd do it for free, since that is part of the "package" when adopting there. However, it turned out that Roxy *hated* riding in the car. I couldn't stand the thought of putting her through an hour's drive each way. But my local vet charged $140 for the spay. I was indecisive about it for several months. That wasn't an issue right away because she was just a baby when I adopted her. But then, when she was about 8 months old, I found out about the $20 neutering thing. The program was for one month, at participating vets and vet hospitals, and *anyone* could get the voucher. I jumped on that one!) > Its the 'sucker' across the forehead, I think. Yeah, those things are expensive! SignatureJoyce To email me, remove the triple-X from my user name. ^..^ >>> One little hitch: if they find a microchip, they are legally bound >>> to try to contact the owners. She still *technically* belongs to [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Yowie That's just what it looks like in the mirror. It actually says "good person who loves animals and easily falls in love with a specific animal". Joy > As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. Abandoned how exactly? - do you know the abandonment was intentional or irresponsible, rather than an accident? > I'm taking her to TED tomorrow (and abusing the credit card) because > her night time opera is too much for any of us to take, and her [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > try to contact the owners. She still *technically* belongs to them. > So, the question is, if they find a microchip, do I delay the spay? I don't recall the story behind how you got her, but that seems the obvious thing to do. Isn't it more likely than not that the original owners would want their cat back? ==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ==== Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557 CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts >> As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. > > Abandoned how exactly? - do you know the abandonment was intentional > or irresponsible, rather than an accident? If I'd 'accidently' locked my cat in the apartment i'd moved out from, I would have noticed and at least have the decency to call the real estate management / landlord of said apartment and let them know that there was a cat trapped in the apartment. If I moved into an apartment with a cat locked in there, the first thin I woudl have done would be to cotact the real estate management / landlord of said apartment to ask them to get in contact with the previous tennants. Which is what they did. Apprantly the answer was 'what cat?'.... but the neighbours confirm that said white fluffy cat was in fact hte previous tennant's cat. Which is why I know she was abandoned rather than accidently lost. >> I'm taking her to TED tomorrow (and abusing the credit card) because >> her night time opera is too much for any of us to take, and her [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > obvious thing to do. Isn't it more likely than not that the original > owners would want their cat back? I would be loathe to return her to people who abandoned her. Yowie > As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > So, the question is, if they find a microchip, do I delay the spay? I would delay the spay. Chances are pretty remote that anything will be found. But even though you know she was an abandoned cat, you don't know that she wasn't a lost cat before she hooked up with the idiots that abandonded her. Maybe a very much loved lost cat. Shouldn't take very long to contact the owners that chipped her if they exist. Jo > "Yowie" <yowie9644.DIESPAM...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message > > As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. > > So, the question is, if they find a microchip, do I delay the spay? I really don't see a reason a busy vet practice would find it necessary to scan a pet if they aren't asked to. In fact, I ran it by my vet and she agrees. Only a number is read on the scanner and why would they have cause to believe that was anyone but you, or even someone who gave Shadow to you? You are probably safe getting her spayed. :) PatM > As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > So, the question is, if they find a microchip, do I delay the spay? Yes, you will have to, because technically she isn't yours if she is lost and microchipped. Her owners may want her back. However, I have a feeling you might not have anything to worry about. She is unlikely to be microchipped if they can't be bothered to spay her. Tweed >> As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Tweed agreed. It seems most people would do those at the same time. >>> As you know, Shadow is an abandoned cat. >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > agreed. It seems most people would do those at the same time. But we have a different scenerio now - the cat had already been spayed. I adopted a female lurcher once from the RSPCA - my beloved Trim (RB) found as a stray. They tried to insist I had her spayed before I collected her, but I refused, so she came home "as she was." Good job really, she'd already been spayed.. Tweed |
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