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Re-introduction problem (longish)

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Chakolate - 05 May 2008 03:23 GMT
Hello, all,

I haven't posted here in a long time, but I've got a problem now that's
driving me up a wall and I thought I'd put it out here for advice.

My male cats, Doc and Pi, are seven years old.  Doc was my first cat, and
is really deep in my heart.  I got Pi (on the advice of this group!)
because Doc needed someone to bite and roughhouse with, and things have
gone along more-or-less smoothly since the beginning.  

Then a few weeks ago, Doc got a urinary tract infection that went
unnoticed for far too long.  (I'm still trying to forgive myself for
that.)  He almost died of septic shock, and was in the hospital for four
days.  (It cost more than my car, and was worth every penny.)  He's fine
now, very much back to his old self.  It's Pi that's the problem.

While Doc was in the hospital, Pi decided he was now an only cat, and
that suited him just fine.  When Doc first came home, Pi was afraid of
him.  Pi's afraid of just about everything, except me and Doc, and since
Doc smelled different, it wasn't surprising that Pi was afraid of him at
first.  After about a week, Pi stopped being afraid, and that's when the
trouble started.  Pi started attacking Doc at every opportunity.  And not
fun, roughhousing attacks, either.  He was trying to inflict real damage,
and since Doc was still fairly weak, he didn't fight back.  

I've had them separated for about a week now, keeping Pi shut up in the
office and giving Doc the run of the rest of the apartment.  I only have
four rooms, though, so this can't continue.  I tried letting Pi out again
today, and the minute I turned my back on them I heard Doc scream.  The
next thing I knew, Doc was hiding and Pi was trying to get at him.  I
pulled him off and shut him back up in the office again.  

I seriously need to get them readjusted to each other.  It's manageable
now, but hot weather is coming and I don't have air conditioning, so if I
have to keep doors shut it will be really uncomfortable, for all of us.  
And Pi is starting to gain weight, since there's nothing to do in the
office but eat and sleep, and he can't run around as much.  

And Doc has gone back to play-attacking my calves again, and trying to
bite me, which was the reason I got Pi in the first place.  Poor little
guy, he's really lonely.  He sits outside the office door when I'm in
here, which I am a lot, because the computer is here, as well as my desk.  
When he sees Pi, he comes tentatively forward, but then Pi's ears go back
and his stance is hostile and Doc runs away, with Pi in hot pursuit.  

Pi's a genuine bully, and I'm sure if Doc stood up to him and fought
back, Pi'd back down.  But he won't, I think partly because he still
wants to be friends, and partly because when he was deathly ill, Pi
attacked him and bit him a couple of times.  Doc ordinarily isn't afraid
of anything, but he's afraid of Pi.  Pi's ordinarily afraid of
everything, but he's not afraid of Doc.  But I don't think I can do
anything to change that dynamic.  Is there?  

I want to try everything possible to get them back to tolerating each
other, because if I can't, I'll have to find another home for Pi.  He
might be happier that way, especially if he can be an only cat.  I'd hate
to give him up, though.  

I just plain don't know what to do, other than keep them separated, which
as I say isn't going to work for much longer.  So any and all ideas will
be welcome - even if you're just guessing, please guess away.  I'm
particularly interested, though, in hearing from anybody who has had
similar experience.  

Thanks in advance,

Chak

Signature

I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not
too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against
them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open.
 --Walt Whitman

Jo Firey - 05 May 2008 04:04 GMT
> Hello, all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance,

No idea if it would work, but if Pi went away for a few days, do you think
it might change the dynamic?

I know I'd want to at least get Pi in for a check-up to see if there is a
physical problem.

Jo
Chakolate - 07 May 2008 05:47 GMT
> No idea if it would work, but if Pi went away for a few days, do you
> think it might change the dynamic?

I have thought of that.  The guy who gave me Doc is a magnet for stray
cats, and he probably would be willing to keep Pi for a few days.  I'm
going to try everything else, first.  

> I know I'd want to at least get Pi in for a check-up to see if there
> is a physical problem.

Money is a huge problem here - and Pi is completely normally-behaving in
every way except in his attitude toward Doc.  I think I'll have to skip a
check-up, at least for a while.  With Care-Credit I have six months to
pay off Doc's bill, and I should (I hope!) just be able to manage it,
especially if the economic stimulus check comes.  

Chak

Signature

I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not
too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against
them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open.
 --Walt Whitman

Marina - 05 May 2008 05:12 GMT
> I just plain don't know what to do, other than keep them separated, which
> as I say isn't going to work for much longer.  So any and all ideas will
> be welcome - even if you're just guessing, please guess away.  I'm
> particularly interested, though, in hearing from anybody who has had
> similar experience.  

I wish I had something really useful to suggest, but I haven't
experienced anything like that. Though one cat may be suspicious of
another who has been at the vet's, they usually settle back in a couple
of days, at the latest. Have you tried Feliway or Rescue Remedy or
anything like that? What a tough situation! Purrs that you can resolve it.

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.

Chakolate - 07 May 2008 05:38 GMT


> I wish I had something really useful to suggest, but I haven't
> experienced anything like that. Though one cat may be suspicious of
> another who has been at the vet's, they usually settle back in a
> couple of days, at the latest. Have you tried Feliway or Rescue Remedy
> or anything like that? What a tough situation! Purrs that you can
> resolve it.

Thanks - I'll look for those products tomorrow.  

Chak

Signature

I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not
too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against
them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open.
 --Walt Whitman

tripsovercats@msn.com - 05 May 2008 05:35 GMT
You need to give this time. What you are experiencing is redirected
aggression and this is something you need to keep in mind and learn to
manage for any future vet visits because it will likely happen again.
It is a very common occurrence, mostly revolving around one cat
smelling different, but can be resolved with time and patience.The
good news is there is no need to rehome either of the cats. You can
work this out.

The first thing you should do is switch which cat is in the office
regularly so each one has time to run around the house. No need to
isolate the aggressor to the office all the time and you may very be
seeing some of this recent aggression because he is frustrated. Your
other cat can spend time in the office for awhile. It won't hurt him.

The second thing you need to do is replace your office door with a
cheap screen door so they can see each other, but not fight.

The third thing is to start feeding them really good canned food on
either side of the door so they will associate something positive with
the presence of the other. Once they seem calm you can try allowing
them out together for very short periods of time and gradually
increase the time together. Never allow them to fight and if you sense
something is about to happen just separate them and try again the next
day. Whatever you do, do not reprimand or otherwise punish either cat
if they react badly. It will only serve to create resentment and make
the situation worse. Even though it sounds kind of backwards, even
hissing or growling should be responded to with gentle, soothing tones
and the theme of creating positive associations with each other should
be maintained always.

It would also help to purchase a Feliway diffuser and keep it plugged
in close to where the office is. This is not a magic bullet, but most
times it is very helpful. If just the behavior modification doesn't
work, you still have hope. Sometimes a short course of medication is
used in these instances to calm the aggressor until the cats are
interacting fine for a period of time, and then meds are slowly
tapered, then discontinued. Good luck. It's NOT hopeless by any
stretch of the imagination. :-)
MaryL - 05 May 2008 13:50 GMT
> You need to give this time. What you are experiencing is redirected
> aggression and this is something you need to keep in mind and learn to
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> tapered, then discontinued. Good luck. It's NOT hopeless by any
> stretch of the imagination. :-)

This is an excellent post.  I just saw the OP's message and was going to
respond, then saw that you have already written everything I would have
said.  This should be viewed as a new introduction, so I would want to go
through the whole routine again -- separation (already achieved) but
alternate which cat has access to the entire house, Feliway placed in areas
where the cats will frequently be close to it (the plug-in dispenser is
best), the temporary door that is either screened or has a see-through panel
at the bottom, and feed them "simultaneously" with a platter slid under the
door so they will be dining "together" but unable to get into a physical
confrontation.

I am posting a pictorial "history" of Holly's introduction to Duffy,
including a picture of the door I used.

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly:     >'o'<
http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy and Holly)
http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in")
Chakolate - 07 May 2008 05:43 GMT
> This is an excellent post.  I just saw the OP's message and was going
> to respond, then saw that you have already written everything I would
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I am posting a pictorial "history" of Holly's introduction to Duffy,
> including a picture of the door I used.

Thanks for your response.  I've begun treating it as a new introduction,
and I've been rereading some of the great advice this group has had for
that.

Chak

Signature

I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not
too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against
them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open.
 --Walt Whitman

Chakolate - 07 May 2008 05:42 GMT
tripsovercats@msn.com wrote in news:1191bbfe-d9f9-444c-91cc-
543f518fc8fc@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

> You need to give this time. What you are experiencing is redirected
> aggression and this is something you need to keep in mind and learn to
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> tapered, then discontinued. Good luck. It's NOT hopeless by any
> stretch of the imagination. :-)

Thank you so much for all your suggestions.  You've given me a lot to
work with, and you've stimulated me to think up a few ideas of my own.  

I've started letting Pi have the run of the place in the mornings, and
Doc gets it evenings and at night.  The afternoons I'm playing by ear.  I
think they're both happier already.  

I'll keep the medication route on reserve as a last-ditch effort, but the
Feliway diffuser is a great idea.  

More than anything else, you've given me hope that this situation can be
worked out - thank you!

Chak

Signature

I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not
too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against
them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open.
 --Walt Whitman

Jo Firey - 07 May 2008 07:15 GMT
> tripsovercats@msn.com wrote in news:1191bbfe-d9f9-444c-91cc-
> 543f518fc8fc@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> Chak

There is one trick that doesn't cost a thing and can confuse some cats into
behaving.

Just if front of a cats ears, there is an area with a bit less fur.  You
will probable notice this is a spot on it face a cat will rub a lot against
things.  Its also a spot most cats like to have rubbed.

There are scent glands there.  (You have to remember a cats sense of smell
puts ours to shame)  It is my understanding that this particular scent is
one cats use to mark things as theirs.  Trees, chair legs, slaves, etc.
Also that they usually have positive associations with this scent.

It you are working to get two cats to make nice with each other, first make
sure you hands are clean but unscented.  Rub the first cat firmly in front
of the ears while you play with it, to make sure you have as much of this
scent on your hands as possible.  Now go to the other cat and make a point
of rubbing your hands all over them.

Transfers back and forth will give the cats the sense that they belong
together.

Jo

(Now go wash your hands)
Chakolate - 19 May 2008 02:24 GMT
> It you are working to get two cats to make nice with each other, first
> make sure you hands are clean but unscented.  Rub the first cat firmly
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Transfers back and forth will give the cats the sense that they belong
> together.

I have been doing that, but the problem is not that they don't recognize
and know each other.  It's that the healthy cat has wanted from the day
he got here to be One and Only Cat.  He's very dominant, and has been
from day one.  

See my later post about what I'm doing about that.

Chak

Signature

I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not
too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against
them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open.
 --Walt Whitman

Chakolate - 19 May 2008 02:43 GMT
Thanks to everybody, for responding and for your support.  

I was unable to find a screen door that would work, but I asked on
freecycle and received a cage large enough for a cat to stay in it for a
few hours each day.  

The lovely lady who gave me the cage has rescued and fostered many cats,
and when I explained the problem, she said that I have a dominant cat
(Pi) and a submissive one (Doc) and that all along I have inadvertently
been sending Pi the message that he's Top Cat.

When I come home, I always offer my hands to the cats to smell, so they
can tell where I've been, and since Pi always shoulders Doc out of the
way, he gets to smell first.  He is greeted first (same reason) and since
they're fed together, he can shoulder Doc out of the way to eat first, as
well.  I suspect one reason that Doc is so thin is that Pi clobbers him
while he eats.  :-(

Whenever I offer them treats, I always offer to Pi first, because he
usually doesn't want what I have (he's a very picky eater) and then I can
give Doc the treat without getting Pi's nose out of joint.  
Unfortunately, that has sent Pi the message that he's the King around
here.  

Anyway, I'm now in the process of reversing that.  I feed them
separately, they each have their own water and food dishes.  I put one of
them in the cage (usually Pi, but sometimes Doc) and feed them within a
foot of each other, always feeding Doc first.  I give them food and
treats and catnip *only* if one of them is in the cage, to get them to
consider the cage as a pleasant place.  And Doc always gets first serve.  
(Once the measured portions are doled out, the food is available to each
until it's gone.  It's just the service that has to be done in the cage.)

I'm also greeting Doc first, letting him smell my hands and petting him,
then going to Pi to greet him and pet him, with Doc's smell all over my
hands.  

Pi's seriously confused at the moment, but he's not giving way lightly.  
He still tries to steal Doc's treats, even from inside the cage.  Rose,
the cat rescuer, says it may take a few months of this to get Pi to
understand that he's not The Boss.  

Doc has already stopped looking at Pi for permission to eat when I give
him food or a treat, so I have great hopes that at some point he'll stand
up for himself against Pi's attacks.  It'll take a while, though.  

So far it's been ten days or so of me playing musical cats, but it's
manageable.  At night and when I'm gone, Doc has the run of the place and
Pi is shut up in either the office or the living room.  There's a glass
door between the living room and the rest of the apartment, so they can
see each other then, as well as when one is in the cage.  

When I'm home, one is in the cage, and I switch them off so neither has
to stay in the cage for more than a few hours.  I think they like the
cage, because both of them go in there on their own if it's empty and
open.  Neither one likes to be *put* in there, though.  They have their
dignity, after all.  :-)

Anyway, for the time being, this is the status quo.  I'm going to have to
get a couple more small litter boxes.  I never thought four would be too
few for two cats, but I'm getting a little tired of shifting litterboxes
from one room to another when I move the cats.  That's the only hiccup so
far, though.  

So anyway, thanks to everyone who responded, I really appreciate all the
advice and help.  I'm still working on getting a screen door, but that
may be a while.  

If it's okay, I'll come back from time to time and let you know how it's
going.  If you think of anything else I could be doing, I'm all ears.  
(That's why I look so funny.)

Love to you all!

Chak

> Hello, all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Chak

Signature

I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not
too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against
them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open.
 --Walt Whitman

 
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