Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / May 2008
Re-introduction problem (longish)
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Chakolate - 05 May 2008 03:23 GMT Hello, all,
I haven't posted here in a long time, but I've got a problem now that's driving me up a wall and I thought I'd put it out here for advice.
My male cats, Doc and Pi, are seven years old. Doc was my first cat, and is really deep in my heart. I got Pi (on the advice of this group!) because Doc needed someone to bite and roughhouse with, and things have gone along more-or-less smoothly since the beginning.
Then a few weeks ago, Doc got a urinary tract infection that went unnoticed for far too long. (I'm still trying to forgive myself for that.) He almost died of septic shock, and was in the hospital for four days. (It cost more than my car, and was worth every penny.) He's fine now, very much back to his old self. It's Pi that's the problem.
While Doc was in the hospital, Pi decided he was now an only cat, and that suited him just fine. When Doc first came home, Pi was afraid of him. Pi's afraid of just about everything, except me and Doc, and since Doc smelled different, it wasn't surprising that Pi was afraid of him at first. After about a week, Pi stopped being afraid, and that's when the trouble started. Pi started attacking Doc at every opportunity. And not fun, roughhousing attacks, either. He was trying to inflict real damage, and since Doc was still fairly weak, he didn't fight back.
I've had them separated for about a week now, keeping Pi shut up in the office and giving Doc the run of the rest of the apartment. I only have four rooms, though, so this can't continue. I tried letting Pi out again today, and the minute I turned my back on them I heard Doc scream. The next thing I knew, Doc was hiding and Pi was trying to get at him. I pulled him off and shut him back up in the office again.
I seriously need to get them readjusted to each other. It's manageable now, but hot weather is coming and I don't have air conditioning, so if I have to keep doors shut it will be really uncomfortable, for all of us. And Pi is starting to gain weight, since there's nothing to do in the office but eat and sleep, and he can't run around as much.
And Doc has gone back to play-attacking my calves again, and trying to bite me, which was the reason I got Pi in the first place. Poor little guy, he's really lonely. He sits outside the office door when I'm in here, which I am a lot, because the computer is here, as well as my desk. When he sees Pi, he comes tentatively forward, but then Pi's ears go back and his stance is hostile and Doc runs away, with Pi in hot pursuit.
Pi's a genuine bully, and I'm sure if Doc stood up to him and fought back, Pi'd back down. But he won't, I think partly because he still wants to be friends, and partly because when he was deathly ill, Pi attacked him and bit him a couple of times. Doc ordinarily isn't afraid of anything, but he's afraid of Pi. Pi's ordinarily afraid of everything, but he's not afraid of Doc. But I don't think I can do anything to change that dynamic. Is there?
I want to try everything possible to get them back to tolerating each other, because if I can't, I'll have to find another home for Pi. He might be happier that way, especially if he can be an only cat. I'd hate to give him up, though.
I just plain don't know what to do, other than keep them separated, which as I say isn't going to work for much longer. So any and all ideas will be welcome - even if you're just guessing, please guess away. I'm particularly interested, though, in hearing from anybody who has had similar experience.
Thanks in advance,
Chak
 Signature I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open. --Walt Whitman
Jo Firey - 05 May 2008 04:04 GMT > Hello, all, > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > Thanks in advance, No idea if it would work, but if Pi went away for a few days, do you think it might change the dynamic?
I know I'd want to at least get Pi in for a check-up to see if there is a physical problem.
Jo
Chakolate - 07 May 2008 05:47 GMT > No idea if it would work, but if Pi went away for a few days, do you > think it might change the dynamic? I have thought of that. The guy who gave me Doc is a magnet for stray cats, and he probably would be willing to keep Pi for a few days. I'm going to try everything else, first.
> I know I'd want to at least get Pi in for a check-up to see if there > is a physical problem. Money is a huge problem here - and Pi is completely normally-behaving in every way except in his attitude toward Doc. I think I'll have to skip a check-up, at least for a while. With Care-Credit I have six months to pay off Doc's bill, and I should (I hope!) just be able to manage it, especially if the economic stimulus check comes.
Chak
 Signature I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open. --Walt Whitman
Marina - 05 May 2008 05:12 GMT > I just plain don't know what to do, other than keep them separated, which > as I say isn't going to work for much longer. So any and all ideas will > be welcome - even if you're just guessing, please guess away. I'm > particularly interested, though, in hearing from anybody who has had > similar experience. I wish I had something really useful to suggest, but I haven't experienced anything like that. Though one cat may be suspicious of another who has been at the vet's, they usually settle back in a couple of days, at the latest. Have you tried Feliway or Rescue Remedy or anything like that? What a tough situation! Purrs that you can resolve it.
 Signature Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.
Chakolate - 07 May 2008 05:38 GMT
> I wish I had something really useful to suggest, but I haven't > experienced anything like that. Though one cat may be suspicious of > another who has been at the vet's, they usually settle back in a > couple of days, at the latest. Have you tried Feliway or Rescue Remedy > or anything like that? What a tough situation! Purrs that you can > resolve it. Thanks - I'll look for those products tomorrow.
Chak
 Signature I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open. --Walt Whitman
tripsovercats@msn.com - 05 May 2008 05:35 GMT You need to give this time. What you are experiencing is redirected aggression and this is something you need to keep in mind and learn to manage for any future vet visits because it will likely happen again. It is a very common occurrence, mostly revolving around one cat smelling different, but can be resolved with time and patience.The good news is there is no need to rehome either of the cats. You can work this out.
The first thing you should do is switch which cat is in the office regularly so each one has time to run around the house. No need to isolate the aggressor to the office all the time and you may very be seeing some of this recent aggression because he is frustrated. Your other cat can spend time in the office for awhile. It won't hurt him.
The second thing you need to do is replace your office door with a cheap screen door so they can see each other, but not fight.
The third thing is to start feeding them really good canned food on either side of the door so they will associate something positive with the presence of the other. Once they seem calm you can try allowing them out together for very short periods of time and gradually increase the time together. Never allow them to fight and if you sense something is about to happen just separate them and try again the next day. Whatever you do, do not reprimand or otherwise punish either cat if they react badly. It will only serve to create resentment and make the situation worse. Even though it sounds kind of backwards, even hissing or growling should be responded to with gentle, soothing tones and the theme of creating positive associations with each other should be maintained always.
It would also help to purchase a Feliway diffuser and keep it plugged in close to where the office is. This is not a magic bullet, but most times it is very helpful. If just the behavior modification doesn't work, you still have hope. Sometimes a short course of medication is used in these instances to calm the aggressor until the cats are interacting fine for a period of time, and then meds are slowly tapered, then discontinued. Good luck. It's NOT hopeless by any stretch of the imagination. :-)
MaryL - 05 May 2008 13:50 GMT > You need to give this time. What you are experiencing is redirected > aggression and this is something you need to keep in mind and learn to [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > tapered, then discontinued. Good luck. It's NOT hopeless by any > stretch of the imagination. :-) This is an excellent post. I just saw the OP's message and was going to respond, then saw that you have already written everything I would have said. This should be viewed as a new introduction, so I would want to go through the whole routine again -- separation (already achieved) but alternate which cat has access to the entire house, Feliway placed in areas where the cats will frequently be close to it (the plug-in dispenser is best), the temporary door that is either screened or has a see-through panel at the bottom, and feed them "simultaneously" with a platter slid under the door so they will be dining "together" but unable to get into a physical confrontation.
I am posting a pictorial "history" of Holly's introduction to Duffy, including a picture of the door I used.
MaryL
Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'< http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy and Holly) http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in")
Chakolate - 07 May 2008 05:43 GMT > This is an excellent post. I just saw the OP's message and was going > to respond, then saw that you have already written everything I would [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I am posting a pictorial "history" of Holly's introduction to Duffy, > including a picture of the door I used. Thanks for your response. I've begun treating it as a new introduction, and I've been rereading some of the great advice this group has had for that.
Chak
 Signature I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open. --Walt Whitman
Chakolate - 07 May 2008 05:42 GMT tripsovercats@msn.com wrote in news:1191bbfe-d9f9-444c-91cc- 543f518fc8fc@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
> You need to give this time. What you are experiencing is redirected > aggression and this is something you need to keep in mind and learn to [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > tapered, then discontinued. Good luck. It's NOT hopeless by any > stretch of the imagination. :-) Thank you so much for all your suggestions. You've given me a lot to work with, and you've stimulated me to think up a few ideas of my own.
I've started letting Pi have the run of the place in the mornings, and Doc gets it evenings and at night. The afternoons I'm playing by ear. I think they're both happier already.
I'll keep the medication route on reserve as a last-ditch effort, but the Feliway diffuser is a great idea.
More than anything else, you've given me hope that this situation can be worked out - thank you!
Chak
 Signature I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open. --Walt Whitman
Jo Firey - 07 May 2008 07:15 GMT > tripsovercats@msn.com wrote in news:1191bbfe-d9f9-444c-91cc- > 543f518fc8fc@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Chak There is one trick that doesn't cost a thing and can confuse some cats into behaving.
Just if front of a cats ears, there is an area with a bit less fur. You will probable notice this is a spot on it face a cat will rub a lot against things. Its also a spot most cats like to have rubbed.
There are scent glands there. (You have to remember a cats sense of smell puts ours to shame) It is my understanding that this particular scent is one cats use to mark things as theirs. Trees, chair legs, slaves, etc. Also that they usually have positive associations with this scent.
It you are working to get two cats to make nice with each other, first make sure you hands are clean but unscented. Rub the first cat firmly in front of the ears while you play with it, to make sure you have as much of this scent on your hands as possible. Now go to the other cat and make a point of rubbing your hands all over them.
Transfers back and forth will give the cats the sense that they belong together.
Jo
(Now go wash your hands)
Chakolate - 19 May 2008 02:24 GMT > It you are working to get two cats to make nice with each other, first > make sure you hands are clean but unscented. Rub the first cat firmly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Transfers back and forth will give the cats the sense that they belong > together. I have been doing that, but the problem is not that they don't recognize and know each other. It's that the healthy cat has wanted from the day he got here to be One and Only Cat. He's very dominant, and has been from day one.
See my later post about what I'm doing about that.
Chak
 Signature I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open. --Walt Whitman
Chakolate - 19 May 2008 02:43 GMT Thanks to everybody, for responding and for your support.
I was unable to find a screen door that would work, but I asked on freecycle and received a cage large enough for a cat to stay in it for a few hours each day.
The lovely lady who gave me the cage has rescued and fostered many cats, and when I explained the problem, she said that I have a dominant cat (Pi) and a submissive one (Doc) and that all along I have inadvertently been sending Pi the message that he's Top Cat.
When I come home, I always offer my hands to the cats to smell, so they can tell where I've been, and since Pi always shoulders Doc out of the way, he gets to smell first. He is greeted first (same reason) and since they're fed together, he can shoulder Doc out of the way to eat first, as well. I suspect one reason that Doc is so thin is that Pi clobbers him while he eats. :-(
Whenever I offer them treats, I always offer to Pi first, because he usually doesn't want what I have (he's a very picky eater) and then I can give Doc the treat without getting Pi's nose out of joint. Unfortunately, that has sent Pi the message that he's the King around here.
Anyway, I'm now in the process of reversing that. I feed them separately, they each have their own water and food dishes. I put one of them in the cage (usually Pi, but sometimes Doc) and feed them within a foot of each other, always feeding Doc first. I give them food and treats and catnip *only* if one of them is in the cage, to get them to consider the cage as a pleasant place. And Doc always gets first serve. (Once the measured portions are doled out, the food is available to each until it's gone. It's just the service that has to be done in the cage.)
I'm also greeting Doc first, letting him smell my hands and petting him, then going to Pi to greet him and pet him, with Doc's smell all over my hands.
Pi's seriously confused at the moment, but he's not giving way lightly. He still tries to steal Doc's treats, even from inside the cage. Rose, the cat rescuer, says it may take a few months of this to get Pi to understand that he's not The Boss.
Doc has already stopped looking at Pi for permission to eat when I give him food or a treat, so I have great hopes that at some point he'll stand up for himself against Pi's attacks. It'll take a while, though.
So far it's been ten days or so of me playing musical cats, but it's manageable. At night and when I'm gone, Doc has the run of the place and Pi is shut up in either the office or the living room. There's a glass door between the living room and the rest of the apartment, so they can see each other then, as well as when one is in the cage.
When I'm home, one is in the cage, and I switch them off so neither has to stay in the cage for more than a few hours. I think they like the cage, because both of them go in there on their own if it's empty and open. Neither one likes to be *put* in there, though. They have their dignity, after all. :-)
Anyway, for the time being, this is the status quo. I'm going to have to get a couple more small litter boxes. I never thought four would be too few for two cats, but I'm getting a little tired of shifting litterboxes from one room to another when I move the cats. That's the only hiccup so far, though.
So anyway, thanks to everyone who responded, I really appreciate all the advice and help. I'm still working on getting a screen door, but that may be a while.
If it's okay, I'll come back from time to time and let you know how it's going. If you think of anything else I could be doing, I'm all ears. (That's why I look so funny.)
Love to you all!
Chak
> Hello, all, > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Chak
 Signature I like the scientific spirit - the holding off, the being sure but not too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against them: This is ultimately fine - it always keeps the way open. --Walt Whitman
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