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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / April 2008no more dry cat food?
Took Bonnie in for her follow-up vet visit today and the vet tells me I should get my cats off dry food entirely and switch to canned or a raw food diet. Turns out the vets have been wrong for the last 30 years or more and now recommend a canned only diet. What? When did this movement start? > Took Bonnie in for her follow-up vet visit today and the vet tells me > I should get my cats off dry food entirely and switch to canned or a > raw food diet. Turns out the vets have been wrong for the last 30 > years or more and now recommend a canned only diet. What? When did > this movement start? If you're interested in why the "movement" started, here's some good facts for you: http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm. Before now, vets were not very well educated in feline nutrition (there wasn't a course for it in vet school), so they got everything they knew from pet food salesmen. Hugs, CatNipped > > Took Bonnie in for her follow-up vet visit today and the vet tells me > > I should get my cats off dry food entirely and switch to canned or a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > CatNipped Yeah, she said to think of it like an Atkins diet. Low or no carbs and high in protein. That is the best. Bonnie throws up a lot and that is what got the discussion going on food. On Apr 8, 12:28 pm, "CatNipped" <CatNip...@PossiblePlaces.com> wrote: > "yepp" <yepph...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > CatNipped Yeah, she said to think of it like an Atkins diet. Low or no carbs and high in protein. That is the best. Bonnie throws up a lot and that is what got the discussion going on food. &&&&& Now it makes sense. If Bonnie is having a problem with dry food, yes she does need to be on 'wet' food. And some cats do need a raw diet. Bonnie is a Himalayan if I remember right. The more exotic cats are more likely to have digestive problems and to require a more natural diet. I have a friend who has Bengals and her girl has to have a raw diet, so of course they both get it. But plenty of people has fed cats dry food for many years with no problems at all. Ours won't eat anything else. We compromise by giving them the very best dry food we can find. If the had to have it, yes I'd be grinding up whole raw chickens too. But for now we are fine. Jo (They do feel guilty enough that I get a big chopped up shrimp every night, and Molly gets lots of turkey too) Jake "yepp" On Apr 8, 12:28 pm, "CatNipped" <: > "yepp" < wrote in message ... > > Took Bonnie in for her follow-up vet visit today and the vet tells me > > I should get my cats off dry food entirely and switch to canned or a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > CatNipped Yeah, she said to think of it like an Atkins diet. Low or no carbs and high in protein. That is the best. Bonnie throws up a lot and that is what got the discussion going on food. Mosey has a fussy tummy too. Certain canned foods like turkey make him throw up, but he'll eat only chicken and shredded beef. The other 3 cats love their dry food, we get them 2 kinds of Friskies. The Indoor food and Feline Favorites. HTH Hug Kyla > Yeah, she said to think of it like an Atkins diet. Low or no carbs > and high in protein. That is the best. Bonnie throws up a lot and > that is what got the discussion going on food. Cats are obligate carnivores, they have no (zero) requirement for carbs in their diet.  SignatureVictor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com I asked my vet about this and he didn't have a clue where this info came from. He likes a combination of wet/dry. > Took Bonnie in for her follow-up vet visit today and the vet tells me > I should get my cats off dry food entirely and switch to canned or a > raw food diet. Turns out the vets have been wrong for the last 30 > years or more and now recommend a canned only diet. What? When did > this movement start? > I asked my vet about this and he didn't have a clue where this info > came from. He likes a combination of wet/dry. Persia's vet doesn't have a problem with her eating only dry. Since before she was placed on a prescription diet I gave her a can of Fancy Feast every Sunday as a treat, I tried her on the wet version of her Rx food. Never could get her to eat it. Jill >> Took Bonnie in for her follow-up vet visit today and the vet tells me >> I should get my cats off dry food entirely and switch to canned or a >> raw food diet. Turns out the vets have been wrong for the last 30 >> years or more and now recommend a canned only diet. What? When did >> this movement start? > I asked my vet about this and he didn't have a clue where this info came > from. He likes a combination of wet/dry Unfortunately, your vet is like many others that have been brainwashed by the pet food companies over the years and for whatever reason have not bothered to investigate newer research on feline nutrition. Fortunately, more and more vets are finally coming to the realization that cats are CARNIVORES and we must feed them as such to ensure the best chance of them staying healthy. Feeding a true carnivore what amounts to a dry bowl of cereal with a little meat thrown in makes about as much sense as feeding a cow steak (and we know what happened when cows started eating feed that had meat in it...) Everyone with a cat should read this link: http://www.catinfo.org and buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Your-Cat-Simple-Secrets-Stronger/dp/0312358016/ref=pd_bbs_ sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207681932&sr=8-1 On Apr 8, 12:28 pm, "Granby" <s...@joink.com> wrote: > I asked my vet about this and he didn't have a clue where this info came > from. He likes a combination of wet/dry Unfortunately, your vet is like many others that have been brainwashed by the pet food companies over the years and for whatever reason have not bothered to investigate newer research on feline nutrition. *** I think this is rather harsh. Considering the fact that canned food is quite a bit more expensive than dry food, it is equally possible that your boss and many others have been brainwahsed by the pet food companies so they can sell more of the expensive wet food. Joy > <tripsoverc...@msn.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Joy No, it's not harsh. It's the truth. I can assure you that the vet I work for has the cat's best interests at heart and does not let potential profit affect his decisions on how he treats his patients. It is ALL about the health and welfare of the cats and he has been known to bend over backwards to help felines who have been failed by other vets. My boss despises pet food reps ( he often gripes about how they should not be allowed in vet schools) and just ran the Iams rep out of the office the other day :-) He doesn't sell that much food (he only carries a small inventory due to space) and more often than not sends his clients to local, smaller stores that carry a good variety of the high-quality canned and raw diets. On Apr 8, 2:36 pm, "Joy" <toas...@real-me.net> wrote: > <tripsoverc...@msn.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Joy No, it's not harsh. It's the truth. I can assure you that the vet I work for has the cat's best interests at heart and does not let potential profit affect his decisions on how he treats his patients. It is ALL about the health and welfare of the cats and he has been known to bend over backwards to help felines who have been failed by other vets. My boss despises pet food reps ( he often gripes about how they should not be allowed in vet schools) and just ran the Iams rep out of the office the other day :-) He doesn't sell that much food (he only carries a small inventory due to space) and more often than not sends his clients to local, smaller stores that carry a good variety of the high-quality canned and raw diets. Actually IMO it is I can see you are very passionate about this so I am not going to get a debate going or get any feelings hurt . But remember you are dealing with hundreds of cat lovers here scattered across the globe. Last time I looked over 18 countries. There are people that have diabetics cats, blind cats, epileptic cats, cats with hyperthyroidism, FiV positive cats, rescue people, vet techs and many more list of health issues and type of cat slaves. 99.99% of us trust our vets here. Yes there is always something to learn but will I take the advice of a vet or no offense a newbie who I have no idea who they are or their back ground The answer is NOT A CHANCE. I have learned something over the years for everything that says it is good there just as much that says it is bad. I have had cats for many ,many decades. Quite a few never would eat wet food and they lived long happy healthy lives. Dry food and wet food so does a raw diet lead to Diabetes when it is not properly monitored free feeding, treats and stupid humans are the main problems. Raw diets are more complicated if you don't know what you are doing. If not enough protein and taurine than you are in trouble I currently have a diabetic cat, and epileptic cat and a cat with hyperthyroidism. Their diet is a mix of dry and wet. Rumble diabetes is under control insulin free for a few years now. Phantoms is in great health even with Hyperthyroidism he still has his appetite. Ka'shay, Dumplin' and Limo refuse to eat wet food and have no interest in human food or the raw diet. Their diet is regulate by my vet all my cats are in great health according to their work ups. I use Iams, fancy feast, Purina and all the others your vet doesn't like. I recently lost my Spirit due to complications when he got poisoned by wet food last year during the pet food recall. So who Do I believe? No offense I think I will trust my vet Some Vets are brainwashed is more the proper words With the wet pet food poisoning last year many people turned to dry no matter what info is available that sticks in the back of their heads. > <tripsoverc...@msn.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > but will I take the advice of a vet or no offense a newbie who I have no > idea who they are or their back ground The answer is NOT A CHANCE. First of all, I am hardly a "newbie." You need simply to check my posting history to see I've been around various newsgroups since at least 2005. I have also posted here before, but I mostly just lurk. Second, regardless of where someone lives or what conditions their cats might have, it does not in any way shape or form change anything about the physiology of a feline and what they truly require. Can you honestly say a bowl of dry crumbs is an appropriate diet for ANY living creature??? Have you seen the movie Soylent Green? If we are unable to feed a CARNIVORE what it would eat naturally (birds and mice, etc) then doesn't common sense dictate we should try to feed it something as close to that as possible? This means a MEAT, moisture rich diet, whether it is canned or raw. Grain filled kibble does not fall into this equation and is an extremely poor, potentially harmful substitute. > I have learned something over the years for everything that says it is good > there just as much that says it is bad. I have had cats for many ,many > decades. Quite a few never would eat wet food and they lived long happy > healthy lives. This is not a cogent argument. There are also plenty of people that smoke two packs and drink a six pack every day of their lives and live to be 90. It doesn't mean their health is great. They may have lived to be 100 without the booze and cigs. I don't know about you, but I feel that I have an obligation to do what is best and feed what is most species appropriate for my cats. >Dry food and wet food so does a raw diet lead to Diabetes > when it is not properly monitored free feeding, treats and stupid humans are > the main problems. This is not correct. A correlation between a dry food diet and diabetes has been shown but NO such correlation has been shown for canned or raw food and diabetes. If you have a cite that says otherwise please share it but I am pretty sure one does not exist. > Raw diets are more complicated if you don't know what you are doing. If not > enough protein and taurine than you are in trouble There are plenty of websites that have nutritionally complete recipes for raw diets. http://www.catnutrition.org is one. There are also commercially prepared raw diets that are very good and which I use myself. > I currently have a diabetic cat, and epileptic cat and a cat with > hyperthyroidism. Their diet is a mix of dry and wet. Rumble diabetes is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > complications when he got poisoned by wet food last year during the pet food > recall. So who Do I believe? No offense I think I will trust my vet And you should know that there have also been recalls on dry food which have everything to do with the grains in them and mycotoxins. What you should also realize is that none of the grain free canned foods (Wellness, Innova Evo, Nature's Variety) were at risk and none were recalled. I'm surprised you would have any of your cats on dry food considering that you were able to bring your diabetic cat into remission by feeding him a low carb canned diet. If you are indeed feeding him any sort of dry food be aware that you are putting him at risk for coming out of remission. Don't think that because it hasn't happened yet that it won't. > Some Vets are brainwashed is more the proper words Many are. I have access to one of the most well known veterinary groups called VIN. I will tell you that you would be shocked if you read the message boards and found out just how ignorant most vets are about feline nutrition, not to mention treating diabetes and kidney failure. Fortunately, most of the consultants that help there are board certified in many areas and stay ahead of the curve with regards to feline nutrition. They are overwhelmingly recommending canned food and the elimination of dry diets for cats. I posted two links in a previous message. One is a feline nutrition website written and maintained by a veterinarian. The other is a book written by the veterinarian who developed the canned diabetic prescription diet for Purina and maintains the http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com website. You really should check them out. I think you would learn a lot. > The other is a book written by the > veterinarian who developed the canned diabetic prescription diet for > Purina and maintains thehttp://www.yourdiabeticcat.comwebsite. You > really should check them out. I think you would learn a lot.- Hide quoted text - Just from the front page of the website I listed above, here is a very good overview of why dry food is so bad for cats: " As important as the proper management of feline diabetes is, it may be even more important that cat lovers learn to prevent this terrible disease in any cat with whom they ever share a home in the future. Diabetes in the cat is a man-made disease, which is completely preventable by avoiding the "kitty junk-food" that is dry kibbled cat food. Without question, it is the continuous, day-in, day-out consumption of this poor-quality, highly processed, carbohydrate rich "breakfast cereal for cats" that causes so many felines to become diabetic. Many cats also become obese from such a terrible diet, but obesity does not cause diabetes, as some experts would have cat owners think. Rather, obesity and diabetes simply have the same cause, non- nutritious, high carbohydrate commercial cat food. To prevent both obesity and diabetes, we need only avoid such junk food when we feed our cats. Instead, we must feed the cat what it evolved to eat: meat. Fortunately, there are many canned and pouched cat foods, as well as many recipes for raw meat diets, that provide good quality nutrition of the obligatory carnivore that is the cat. You will hear some experts say that dietary fat causes diabetes. This is simply not true. The pet food companies, all of which use massive amounts of cereal to make their dry cat foods, wish to deflect criticism from this terrible ingredient for cats. Most commercial cat foods are quite low in fat; if this ingredient were responsible for feline diabetes, we would see very little of it. These same experts will tell you that the key to a good diet for diabetic cats is high protein, this is simply not true. It is dietary CARBOHYDRATE, pure and simple, not high fat or low protein that leads to diabetes in cats. If you reduce the carbohydrate in a diet, you must increase the protein or the fat in the diet, or both, in order to take the place of the reduced carbohydrate, so low carbohydrate diets will often have higher protein as a result. It is not the increase in protein that makes these diets work, however, it is the reduction in carbohydrate that gives the results. The cat's natural diet is high in protein (about 45-70% dry matter), moderate in fat (about 15-35% dry matter), and very low in carbohydrate (0-5% dry matter). Contrast this with the breakdown of most dry kibble for cats with moderate protein (22-34% dry matter), low fat (10-25% dry matter) and very high carbohydrate from processed cereals (35-50% dry matter). Clearly dry cat foods are entirely upsidedown compared to the natural prey diet of the cat. You cannot put the wrong fuel in any engine, day after day, year after year, without dire consequences. " I have passed the age of 60 and remember before there was "Cat or Dog food" for the average person. People who are so sure they are right and everyone else is wrong scare me. I don't need this. *PLUNK* On Apr 8, 3:36 pm, "Matthew" <Iamacatsl...@proudtoserve.com> wrote: > <tripsoverc...@msn.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > but will I take the advice of a vet or no offense a newbie who I have no > idea who they are or their back ground The answer is NOT A CHANCE. First of all, I am hardly a "newbie." You need simply to check my posting history to see I've been around various newsgroups since at least 2005. I have also posted here before, but I mostly just lurk. Second, regardless of where someone lives or what conditions their cats might have, it does not in any way shape or form change anything about the physiology of a feline and what they truly require. Can you honestly say a bowl of dry crumbs is an appropriate diet for ANY living creature??? Have you seen the movie Soylent Green? If we are unable to feed a CARNIVORE what it would eat naturally (birds and mice, etc) then doesn't common sense dictate we should try to feed it something as close to that as possible? This means a MEAT, moisture rich diet, whether it is canned or raw. Grain filled kibble does not fall into this equation and is an extremely poor, potentially harmful substitute. > I have learned something over the years for everything that says it is > good > there just as much that says it is bad. I have had cats for many ,many > decades. Quite a few never would eat wet food and they lived long happy > healthy lives. This is not a cogent argument. There are also plenty of people that smoke two packs and drink a six pack every day of their lives and live to be 90. It doesn't mean their health is great. They may have lived to be 100 without the booze and cigs. I don't know about you, but I feel that I have an obligation to do what is best and feed what is most species appropriate for my cats. >Dry food and wet food so does a raw diet lead to Diabetes > when it is not properly monitored free feeding, treats and stupid humans > are > the main problems. This is not correct. A correlation between a dry food diet and diabetes has been shown but NO such correlation has been shown for canned or raw food and diabetes. If you have a cite that says otherwise please share it but I am pretty sure one does not exist. > Raw diets are more complicated if you don't know what you are doing. If > not > enough protein and taurine than you are in trouble There are plenty of websites that have nutritionally complete recipes for raw diets. http://www.catnutrition.org is one. There are also commercially prepared raw diets that are very good and which I use myself. > I currently have a diabetic cat, and epileptic cat and a cat with > hyperthyroidism. Their diet is a mix of dry and wet. Rumble diabetes is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > food > recall. So who Do I believe? No offense I think I will trust my vet And you should know that there have also been recalls on dry food which have everything to do with the grains in them and mycotoxins. What you should also realize is that none of the grain free canned foods (Wellness, Innova Evo, Nature's Variety) were at risk and none were recalled. I'm surprised you would have any of your cats on dry food considering that you were able to bring your diabetic cat into remission by feeding him a low carb canned diet. If you are indeed feeding him any sort of dry food be aware that you are putting him at risk for coming out of remission. Don't think that because it hasn't happened yet that it won't. > Some Vets are brainwashed is more the proper words Many are. I have access to one of the most well known veterinary groups called VIN. I will tell you that you would be shocked if you read the message boards and found out just how ignorant most vets are about feline nutrition, not to mention treating diabetes and kidney failure. Fortunately, most of the consultants that help there are board certified in many areas and stay ahead of the curve with regards to feline nutrition. They are overwhelmingly recommending canned food and the elimination of dry diets for cats. I posted two links in a previous message. One is a feline nutrition website written and maintained by a veterinarian. The other is a book written by the veterinarian who developed the canned diabetic prescription diet for Purina and maintains the http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com website. You really should check them out. I think you would learn a lot. > I have passed the age of 60 and remember before there was "Cat or Dog food" > for the average person. People who are so sure they are right and everyone > else is wrong scare me. I don't need this. > *PLUNK I'm sorry you feel that way. I have made a concerted effort to offer not just my opinion, but cites to back up what I am saying. I have always been of the mindset that you can teach an old dog new tricks, but it seems you are not interested in learning anything new and it's really too bad. I should also point out that I am not alone here and there are several that are saying the same thing. Will you be "plunk"ing them as well? On Apr 8, 5:18 pm, "Granby" <s...@joink.com> wrote: > I have passed the age of 60 and remember before there was "Cat or Dog > food" > for the average person. People who are so sure they are right and > everyone > else is wrong scare me. I don't need this. > *PLUNK I'm sorry you feel that way. I have made a concerted effort to offer not just my opinion, but cites to back up what I am saying. I have always been of the mindset that you can teach an old dog new tricks, but it seems you are not interested in learning anything new and it's really too bad. I should also point out that I am not alone here and there are several that are saying the same thing. Will you be "plunk"ing them as well? ********* Get over yourself, OK? This is a cat anecdote group. Got any cute stories? I don't come here to be ranted at by someone who it would appear has decided what it best for everyone all the time and insists that anyone who might not agree wholeheartly is not only wrong but bad. Jo > Get over yourself, OK? Maybe you should consider taking your own advice. :-) > This is a cat anecdote group. Got any cute stories? Not right now. My cat just died (was euthanized at home) a few days ago after a long and horrible illness (acute necrotizing pancrreatitis) and I'm not really feeling "cute" right now. This is a disease that is sometimes brought on by poor nutrition-i.e. dry food and high carbohydrates which can cause inflammatory boewel disease which can cause liver issues and pancreatitis,( which is why this discussion is very important to me.) That was not the case for my cat. He had some genetic abnormalities that we weren't aware of until after the necropsy was done. Maybe someday later I'll have something cute to share... > I don't come here to be ranted at by someone who it would appear has > decided what it best for everyone all the time and insists that anyone who > might not agree wholeheartly is not only wrong but bad. Please quote where I said anything of the kind. I did not and don't appreciate you lying about what I've posted. I've posted in a discussion about dry food because I felt it was important to make people aware of the latest information. I have not "ranted" at you (although I see you did so to me in this most recent response) and have spent a lot of time offering information that I have backed up with cites. I also pointed out the fact that someone was just not willing to learn anything new. I find it sad that some people would rather be stuck in their old ways than, at the very least, be open to or look at new information. The fact that you may disagree or whatever is certainly your right, but at the same time really not my problem and I don't see any justification for your ruffled feathers. > On Apr 8, 5:18 pm, "Granby" <s...@joink.com> wrote: >> I have passed the age of 60 and remember before there was "Cat or Dog [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Jo More to the point, I think (because we certainly do stray from anecdotes) is we don't know this poster. Newbies to the group are, of course, welcome. But no one takes kindly to a stranger who pops up out of the blue and declares everyone who feeds dry food (and their vets, if they condone it) is wrong, even if they agree with them. (Particularly not one who touts buying a book and provides a link for... SPAM? I didn't click it. I don't click on links posted by people I don't know.) I KNOW cats are carnivores. But Persia is on a prescription diet. If she won't eat the canned variety and her vet (two vets, actually) says the dry is okay, at least for now, who am I to argue? She simply won't eat the wet stuff. I'd rather her eat the dry which won't cause a recurrence of the crystalline oxolate formations in her bladder than have her go through another surgery. As for a raw diet, I know there are people on RPCA who do that. I simply can't afford to. Jill and I remember my mom telling me how they fed my grandfather braces of hunting dogs, and while it had meat it also had a substantial amount of bread, because nothing was wasted, and calories were calories... I did what you did just before reading this post, Lee > I have passed the age of 60 and remember before there was "Cat or Dog food" > for the average person. People who are so sure they are right and everyone [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] > Purina and maintains the http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com website. You > really should check them out. I think you would learn a lot. Lee, my grandmother would grind corn oats, dry peas and such end of garden stuff. She would grind this up mix with water. Smooth in a thin layer and dry in the sun. In the winter when food was scarce, she would feed to the cats as dry. I don't mind getting new information, I just don't like someone that works for a vet saying they and their boss are right. Showing site that are supposed to prove their point doesn't cut it either. Different strokes and all that. I resemble the "old dog" remark so can't argue that point. If this person only knew how much I had learned this past year, Ah well, enough of that. > and I remember my mom telling me how they fed my grandfather braces of > hunting dogs, and while it had meat it also had a substantial amount of [quoted text clipped - 160 lines] >> Purina and maintains the http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com website. You >> really should check them out. I think you would learn a lot. and since my vet gives different advice, it doesn't matter how many times she has saved one of my cats from death, she is wrong, I think NOT, and if we were using words to describe you dog is definitely NOT what I would choose, Lee > Lee, my grandmother would grind corn oats, dry peas and such end of garden > stuff. She would grind this up mix with water. Smooth in a thin layer and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >> *PLUNK* > >> <tripsovercats@msn.com> wrote in message news:7fc9071d-246d-4634-92a1-01e53e775227@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > >> On Apr 8, 3:36 pm, "Matthew" <Iamacatsl...@proudtoserve.com> wrote: > >> > <tripsoverc...@msn.com> wrote in message news:2b5b5014-9705-4d0c-b58b-35d8e7d8319f@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com... > >> > On Apr 8, 2:36 pm, "Joy" <toas...@real-me.net> wrote: > >> > [quoted text clipped - 145 lines] > >> Purina and maintains the http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com website. You > >> really should check them out. I think you would learn a lot. > First of all, I am hardly a "newbie." You need simply to check my > posting history to see I've been around various newsgroups since at > least 2005. I have also posted here before, but I mostly just lurk. That makes you a newbie... :) Victor, who's been posting since at least 1995. SignatureVictor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com > tripsoverc...@msn.com wrote: > > First of all, I am hardly a "newbie." You need simply to check my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Victor, who's been posting since at least 1995. OK, you got me there! :-P >> First of all, I am hardly a "newbie." You need simply to check my >> posting history to see I've been around various newsgroups since at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Victor, who's been posting since at least 1995. 1997 for me :) Besides, who wants to wade their way through google crap to determine someone's posting history? Jill > 1997 for me :) Besides, who wants to wade their way through google crap > to determine someone's posting history? I know it was 1995 because that is the year I started grad school. :) As an undergrad I spent my online time on BitNet. SignatureVictor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com >> 1997 for me :) Besides, who wants to wade their way through google >> crap to determine someone's posting history? > > I know it was 1995 because that is the year I started grad school. :) > As an undergrad I spent my online time on BitNet. 1987 for usenet and rec.pets.cat soon after that. As I said before I was not a big proponent of a split but I guess I have gotten over it. I still lurk on a few of the off-shoots of rpc but only post on very rare occasion on h&b and slightly less rarely here otherwise my activity is limited to technical groups related to my work. >>> 1997 for me :) Besides, who wants to wade their way through google >>> crap to determine someone's posting history? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > on h&b and slightly less rarely here otherwise my activity is limited to > technical groups related to my work. I changed my email so many times while messing with the trolls I can't remember when I started. I know here about right after 2004 hurricanes maybe before can't be sure. < old man moment> Please worry about your cats and not mine but thank you for your concern. The only risk they have is getting loved to much. I watch them like a hawk and they get better medical care than most people. As a I said I will trust my vet before I trust a newbie. yes a newbie who has posted here about a dozen times you are a newbie to the group but welcome. This is a rec.pets.cats.anecdotes we are here to have fun and be a family. You are ruffling feathers since you are pushing this down peoples throat. I am sorry you just lost one of your masters but your style seem to be pushing this down peoples throat and you are make call on my furballs which you have no knowledge of me or my vet or our experience or their health. You won't get your point across that way. On Apr 8, 3:36 pm, "Matthew" <Iamacatsl...@proudtoserve.com> wrote: > <tripsoverc...@msn.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > but will I take the advice of a vet or no offense a newbie who I have no > idea who they are or their back ground The answer is NOT A CHANCE. First of all, I am hardly a "newbie." You need simply to check my posting history to see I've been around various newsgroups since at least 2005. I have also posted here before, but I mostly just lurk. Second, regardless of where someone lives or what conditions their cats might have, it does not in any way shape or form change anything about the physiology of a feline and what they truly require. Can you honestly say a bowl of dry crumbs is an appropriate diet for ANY living creature??? Have you seen the movie Soylent Green? If we are unable to feed a CARNIVORE what it would eat naturally (birds and mice, etc) then doesn't common sense dictate we should try to feed it something as close to that as possible? This means a MEAT, moisture rich diet, whether it is canned or raw. Grain filled kibble does not fall into this equation and is an extremely poor, potentially harmful substitute. > I have learned something over the years for everything that says it is > good > there just as much that says it is bad. I have had cats for many ,many > decades. Quite a few never would eat wet food and they lived long happy > healthy lives. This is not a cogent argument. There are also plenty of people that smoke two packs and drink a six pack every day of their lives and live to be 90. It doesn't mean their health is great. They may have lived to be 100 without the booze and cigs. I don't know about you, but I feel that I have an obligation to do what is best and feed what is most species appropriate for my cats. >Dry food and wet food so does a raw diet lead to Diabetes > when it is not properly monitored free feeding, treats and stupid humans > are > the main problems. This is not correct. A correlation between a dry food diet and diabetes has been shown but NO such correlation has been shown for canned or raw food and diabetes. If you have a cite that says otherwise please share it but I am pretty sure one does not exist. > Raw diets are more complicated if you don't know what you are doing. If > not > enough protein and taurine than you are in trouble There are plenty of websites that have nutritionally complete recipes for raw diets. http://www.catnutrition.org is one. There are also commercially prepared raw diets that are very good and which I use myself. > I currently have a diabetic cat, and epileptic cat and a cat with > hyperthyroidism. Their diet is a mix of dry and wet. Rumble diabetes is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > food > recall. So who Do I believe? No offense I think I will trust my vet And you should know that there have also been recalls on dry food which have everything to do with the grains in them and mycotoxins. What you should also realize is that none of the grain free canned foods (Wellness, Innova Evo, Nature's Variety) were at risk and none were recalled. I'm surprised you would have any of your cats on dry food considering that you were able to bring your diabetic cat into remission by feeding him a low carb canned diet. If you are indeed feeding him any sort of dry food be aware that you are putting him at risk for coming out of remission. Don't think that because it hasn't happened yet that it won't. > Some Vets are brainwashed is more the proper words Many are. I have access to one of the most well known veterinary groups called VIN. I will tell you that you would be shocked if you read the message boards and found out just how ignorant most vets are about feline nutrition, not to mention treating diabetes and kidney failure. Fortunately, most of the consultants that help there are board certified in many areas and stay ahead of the curve with regards to feline nutrition. They are overwhelmingly recommending canned food and the elimination of dry diets for cats. I posted two links in a previous message. One is a feline nutrition website written and maintained by a veterinarian. The other is a book written by the veterinarian who developed the canned diabetic prescription diet for Purina and maintains the http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com website. You really should check them out. I think you would learn a lot. To me this is in the same boat with the ones that are now saying people don't need a lot of water in their daily routine. The day I heard that I also heard someone who was against all these plastic water bottles say "If we can just get one third of the people not to drink bottle water we will save....." Not on either side of the issue as such but there are always two versions of the same tale. > On Apr 8, 2:36 pm, "Joy" <toas...@real-me.net> wrote: >> <tripsoverc...@msn.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > With the wet pet food poisoning last year many people turned to dry no > matter what info is available that sticks in the back of their heads. > On Apr 8, 12:28 pm, "Granby" <s...@joink.com> wrote: >> I asked my vet about this and he didn't have a clue where this info came [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Joy No, Joy, it's not harsh it's just how cats have evolved. If you'll look at the bottom of this page, http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm, you'll see a list of contributors to the article (many and learned). This article explains the mechanics of a cat's bite and why a cat's body needs the fluid and nutrients in wet food. I truly feel it's better to feed a less expensive canned food than an expensive dry food. Hugs, CatNipped > On Apr 8, 12:28 pm, "Granby" <s...@joink.com> wrote: >> I asked my vet about this and he didn't have a clue where this info came [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > boss and many others have been brainwahsed by the pet food companies so > they can sell more of the expensive wet food. What would cats eat "in the wild?" Birds, mice, rats, that sort of thing, and they are "wet." I would say more like people are brainwashed by the pet food companies into giving their cats "dry" TBH. We have all read how bad dry is for boys. It can cause blocked urethers. Dry has it's place but it can be an easy option. "Everything your cat needs IS in this food" Probably it is, which is not to say that they will live a long life on it. Boyfriend was probably reared in his former life on dry. He is on wet with a sprinkle of dry. He would eat exclusively dry if given the chance, he is not given that choice. KFC has never seen dry in her life. She eats wet, having caught her own food all her life she only wants what Boyfie catches for her now or what wet I give her Maybe that is why she's 22. Tweed On Apr 8, 3:45 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > > <tripsoverc...@msn.com> wrote in message > >news:4ef16705-e822-4487-b4fb-5f11cc4f8322@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > IS in this food" > Probably it is, which is not to say that they will live a long life on it. Dry food was invented not for the benefit of the cat, but simply for convenience and as a way to get rid of industrial leftovers. Here is a very good article that gives a history of how dry food came to be and some pretty scary details that resulted in the death or many cats (and I believe that one of mine was one.) http://www.catnutrition.org/diabetes.php > Boyfriend was probably reared in his former life on dry. He is on wet with > a sprinkle of dry. He would eat exclusively dry if given the chance, he is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I give her > Maybe that is why she's 22. I'm betting you're exactly right. :-) > Tweed- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 8, 4:45 pm, "Christina Websell" <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote: > > <tripsoverc...@msn.com> wrote in message > >news:4ef16705-e822-4487-b4fb-5f11cc4f8322@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Tweed I tried raw chicken and beef. Bonnie, being from her stray time I guess, gobbled it up. She also went after a chicken bone I had on my plate. Since Tuesday of this week, she has gotten raw food + dry. Bobby will not touch raw food and just stares at me when served. He just won't have any parts of that. He has been with me since 8 weeks old and has always been on a diet of dry and canned. Bonnie was on the streets for no one knows how long. She probably ate garbage, birds, mice and whatever she could find. I've only had her a month, so it's hard to tell. She did dig into the raw food like a 'carnivore' and stopped throwing up. No vomiting since I offered her raw food. I only wonder if she is getting enough fiber? That is the original problem that she had with blocked anal ducts. Not enough fiber can cause that. I don't know if that was the 100% reason, but it is unusual for a cat to get blocked anal ducts. Anyways, I am now offering some raw tidbits at nighttime for her and feeding Chicken Soup for the Cat Lovers Soul free feeding all day + night. That is one dry food she doesn't vomit. The bad ones were Science Diet (dry) and Royal Canin Special 33 (for Persians). >> I asked my vet about this and he didn't have a clue where this info >> came from. He likes a combination of wet/dry > Unfortunately, your vet is like many others that have been brainwashed > by the pet food companies over the years and for whatever reason have > not bothered to investigate newer research on feline nutrition. The standard text on cat medicine used in the UK for many years (probably still is) is G.T. Wilkinson (ed), Diseases of the Cat and their Management. The chapter on nutrition was written by Patricia Brown, nutritional medicine specialist at the Royal Free Hospital in London (i.e. her main specialty was people). Pretty obviously nothing to do with the petfood industry, and she doesn't make any definite recommendation either way. (Instead, she evaluates specific ingredients which might be in either wet or dry foods - they are not always as different in composition as you're implying). > Everyone with a cat should read this link: [spam site deleted[ > and buy this book: [spammed book ad deleted] I'd rather take Brown's word for it than a self-promoting googlegroup spammer's, thanks. ==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ==== Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557 CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts > Took Bonnie in for her follow-up vet visit today and the vet tells me > I should get my cats off dry food entirely and switch to canned or a > raw food diet. Turns out the vets have been wrong for the last 30 > years or more and now recommend a canned only diet. What? When did > this movement start? As far as I can see, there are two schools of thought. One group of vets say dry food is better for their teeth. The other group says wet food is better. I think the best thing to do is to go by the individual cat. Yours obviously is having digestive problems, so a change of food could be a good idea. I had one cat that I truly believe would have starved if I had given her only wet food. Joy > > Took Bonnie in for her follow-up vet visit today and the vet tells me > > I should get my cats off dry food entirely and switch to canned or a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Joy The vet was referring to all cats being better off eating a wet food diet. I know Bonnie will eat just about anything right now. She is easy. Bobby is the fussy one. He is really finicky. I looked up some websites about this subject. catnutrition.org is one and also on ehow and about.com there are lots of articles about feeding at wet diet. I think feeding a raw diet would be much harder. You must have taurine and some other vitamins/minerals for your cat and I think I'll just try to get both my cats eating more wet. The vet said to try to mix the dry into the wet for 7 days. From the websites I've been reading today, it says: Dry food actually breaks up into crumbs and gets stuck in your cat's teeth. That causes dental problems. Ripping a piece of raw meat like chicken or beef, actually cleans your cat's teeth. It also says cats love the crunch of dry food but dry food diets lead to diabetes and kidney problems. It makes our longer living pet cats fat and the vets are seeing a remarkable increase in diabetes in cats. . Ripping a piece of raw meat like > chicken or beef, actually cleans your cat's teeth. I throw the Fabulous Furballs the occasional bit of steak, which they love. Another thing I do is when we're having a roast lamb or beef (NEVER chicken or any other poultry) on the bone (shoulder of lamb in particular is good for this) I leave a fair bit of meat on the bone and when it's cooled I let the Fabulous Furballs at it. They like tearing the meat off- I keep an eye on them while they do it- well it is fun to watch them getting stuck in - they suddenly act like a pair of lions on the Serengeti and remove the bone (and take it out of the house or they'll rip the bin open) as soon as they've cleaned the bone and had a good gnaw on it and the vet says they have no dental problems Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs On Apr 8, 11:52 am, yepp <yepph...@gmail.com> wrote: . Ripping a piece of raw meat like > chicken or beef, actually cleans your cat's teeth. I throw the Fabulous Furballs the occasional bit of steak, which they love. Another thing I do is when we're having a roast lamb or beef (NEVER chicken or any other poultry) on the bone (shoulder of lamb in particular is good for this) I leave a fair bit of meat on the bone and when it's cooled I let the Fabulous Furballs at it. They like tearing the meat off- I keep an eye on them while they do it- well it is fun to watch them getting stuck in - they suddenly act like a pair of lions on the Serengeti and remove the bone (and take it out of the house or they'll rip the bin open) as soon as they've cleaned the bone and had a good gnaw on it and the vet says they have no dental problems Lesley When we went to pick up our Sam many years ago in Anchorage, the cats and kittens were out in the family's garage. All lined up in a row happily gnawing on the fresh legbone of a caribou. No wonder Sam thought he was a wild man all his life, no matter what his Blue Point Siamese pedigree said. There were reasons we registered him and Firey's Dammit Sam. Jo > I think feeding a raw diet would be much harder. You must have > taurine and some other vitamins/minerals for your cat and I think I'll > just try to get both my cats eating more wet. The vet said to try to > mix the dry into the wet for 7 days. There are a few pre-made raw diets out there you can buy. Nature's Variety has one that is excellent. Their canned foods are also top- notch and grain-free. > From the websites I've been reading today, it says: > > Dry food actually breaks up into crumbs and gets stuck in your cat's > teeth. That causes dental problems. This is exactly right. Here is an excellent article on the subject: http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=doesdryfoodcl eantheteeth >Ripping a piece of raw meat like > chicken or beef, actually cleans your cat's teeth. It also says cats > love the crunch of dry food but dry food diets lead to diabetes and > kidney problems. It makes our longer living pet cats fat and the vets > are seeing a remarkable increase in diabetes in cats. That's right. I work at a vet clinic and my boss refuses to sell dry food for cats. Not only does it cause diabetes and kidney problems, but it is also is the main factor in urinary tract issues in cats. We see a lot of dry-food fed cats come in with urinary problems. He does not use prescription diets for these cases. He just puts them on a canned, grain-free diet (Wellness or Innova Evo 95%) with a bit of extra water added and,most cases resolve fairly quickly. NO cat with urinary tract issues should be on a dry diet! On Apr 8, 2:45 pm, "Joy" <toas...@real-me.net> wrote: > "yepp" <yepph...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Joy The vet was referring to all cats being better off eating a wet food diet. I know Bonnie will eat just about anything right now. She is easy. Bobby is the fussy one. He is really finicky. I looked up some websites about this subject. catnutrition.org is one and also on ehow and about.com there are lots of articles about feeding at wet diet. I think feeding a raw diet would be much harder. You must have taurine and some other vitamins/minerals for your cat and I think I'll just try to get both my cats eating more wet. The vet said to try to mix the dry into the wet for 7 days. From the websites I've been reading today, it says: Dry food actually breaks up into crumbs and gets stuck in your cat's teeth. That causes dental problems. Ripping a piece of raw meat like chicken or beef, actually cleans your cat's teeth. It also says cats love the crunch of dry food but dry food diets lead to diabetes and kidney problems. It makes our longer living pet cats fat and the vets are seeing a remarkable increase in diabetes in cats. *** As I said, there are two schools of thought on that. My vet feels that dry food is much better for their teeth, but that a little wet food as a treat is okay. Incidentally, Skeeter (rb), the only cat I've had who absolutely refused to eat anything except dry food, was slim all her life. Joy > As far as I can see, there are two schools of thought. One group of vets > say dry food is better for their teeth. The other group says wet food is > better. They are probably both correct. The truth is, both canned and dry food are unnatural to a cat. Wild cats who hunt get raw meat and bones to chomp on, which give them all the water and protein, plus tooth-cleaning crunchiness, they need. I'm still not willing to do the raw-foods thing, but hats off to those who do. I do the best I can with Wellness brand premium canned food. Roxy and Smudge occasionally get a bit of high-quality dry food to snack on, when Licky is in a separate room. No more dry for him! SignatureJoyce To email me, remove the triple-X from my user name. ^..^ > As far as I can see, there are two schools of thought. One group of vets > say dry food is better for their teeth. The other group says wet food is That argument really does not hold water, as cats mostly eat their kibble whole, as shown by the barfs I clean every so often. :) We but them Science Diet Oral Care kibble, which is big, dog-sized. That one they *have* to chew, thus letting the kibble abrade the tartar on their teeth. SignatureVictor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com |
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