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PING Finns

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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 06 Sep 2007 02:54 GMT
Hey, Marina, Christine, and anyone else here who reads Finnish,

On one of my LiveJournal communities (called "What Was That Book?",
for people to post descriptions of books they once read, that they
can't remember the name of - great community, I've found long-lost
titles there myself), someone posted an entry in Finnish, in the
hope that someone there could read it and tell him/her the name of
the book. So far, he/she hasn't gotten an answer, so I thought I'd
post it here in case one of you is familiar with this book:

 Nuortenkirja, jonka kuvittelisin lukeneeni yli 15 vuotta sitten. Juoni
 oli jotakin ep?m??r?ist? ja nuortenkirjamaista, mutta yksi yksityiskohta
 j?i kiusaamaan. P??henkil? v?isti kadulla ep?m??r?ist? jengi?/henkil??,
 joka kuului mainittuun jengiin, ja sen nimi oli Loviisa kakkonen
 ydinvoimalan reaktorin mukaan, "koska jengi oli yht? arvaamaton kuin
 kakkosreaktori" tai vastaavaa. On siis hyvin mahdollista ett? kirja
 sijoittui Loviisaan tai l?himaille.

 Typer? yksityiskohta, mutta h?iritsee.

I sure hope I'm not posting anything totally bizarre or worse. :)

Joyce
Marina - 06 Sep 2007 03:53 GMT
> I sure hope I'm not posting anything totally bizarre or worse. :)

Heh, no, it's a legitimate question, but I'm afraid I don't know the
book they are talking about (I don't realy read books in Finnish, mostly
in English and some in Swedish).

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.

Christine K. - 06 Sep 2007 04:04 GMT
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net kirjoitti:
> Hey, Marina, Christine, and anyone else here who reads Finnish,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Joyce

Nothing bizarre, just a description of a book for juveniles, which I
have not read as it doesn't seem familiar.

Quick translation (a rough one, I'm not the official translator here...):
A juvenile book, which I estimate having read over 15 years ago.
The plot is something indistinct and "juvenile bookish", but one detail
still bothers me. The main character evaded a shady gang or person
belonging to the gang in the street, and the name was Loviisa two after
the nuclear reactor, "as the gang was as unpredictable as the number two
reactor" or something like that. Therefore it's very possible that the
story of the book is situated in Loviisa or nearby.

Stupid detail but it bothers.
End of translation

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Christine in Laitila, Finland
christal63 (at) gmail (dot) com
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Christine K. - 06 Sep 2007 04:22 GMT
Christine K. kirjoitti:
> jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net kirjoitti:
>> Hey, Marina, Christine, and anyone else here who reads Finnish,
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Stupid detail but it bothers.
> End of translation

Oh, and as Loviisa is a city in the South-West of Finland, I assume the
author of the book is also Finnish, which is probably why the question
was posted in Finnish in the first place.

And I do read in Finnish if the original book is in Finnish. I prefer to
read a book in the original language if I know the language well enough,
so it's Swedish, Finnish, German and English books for me. And I don't
mean to disrespect translators, but no matter how good the translator
is, it's still a choice of what word to use for the translation of this
or that, and the original may give a different feel for the text than
the translation.

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Christine in Laitila, Finland
christal63 (at) gmail (dot) com
photos: http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb108/christal63/
photos: http://community.webshots.com/user/chkr63

jofirey - 06 Sep 2007 05:22 GMT
> Christine K. kirjoitti:
>> jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net kirjoitti:
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> that, and the original may give a different feel for the text than the
> translation.

I would think reading a book in the language as written would be similar to
wanting to read the book, rather than see the movie.

There is a special connection sometimes one feels with an author.

But what do I know.  I have so much trouble learning the least little bit of
any other language.  I really think its a form of learning disability.  Same
for my father.  He grew up in Canada and as an adult didn't speak or
understand any French at all.  Said taking it in school was miserable for
him.

Jo
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 06 Sep 2007 07:53 GMT
> And I do read in Finnish if the original book is in Finnish. I prefer to
> read a book in the original language if I know the language well enough,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> or that, and the original may give a different feel for the text than
> the translation.

I agree. A translation, especially of creative writing, is an
interpretation of the work. The translator is, in a sense, writing
the book all over again, in the new language. Not by creating the
plot or the characters, but certainly by choosing the words in the
prose. That's up to the translator, and it's a very subjective thing.
It's an expression of the translator as much as of the original
writer, in some ways.

Although I would imagine that in different disciplines, there are
standard ways to translate some things. I've been working with
translations of the user manuals I write into various languages.
I don't know any of the languages well enough to know how good the
translations are. We have to have reviewers check over the translations
to make sure they're both technically and grammatically accurate.

As for the flow of the writing, ie, how natural it sounds, my guess
is that this doesn't get corrected. Most of our reviewers are not
writers, and they have a lot of other responsibilities, so if
something's grammatically correct, they'll let it go, I'm sure.
It takes a lot of time to fix that, and that's something I know
first-hand. As some of you might remember, I've had to review
translations of some manuals from Japanese into English, and even
when there's no actual *error*, the language just sounds so bizarre,
and not like anything a normal English speaker would ever say. Since
writing *is* my primary responsibility, I felt that I couldn't
allow the manuals to be shipped in that condition, so I spent a
lot of time rewriting large amounts of text that were correct but
just sounded ridiculous.

But even in less precise types of writing than technical manuals,
I would imagine there are some agreed-upon ways for certain types
of passages or phrases or even particular words to be translated.
Maybe the people who are actually translators can speak to this?

Joyce
Marina - 06 Sep 2007 08:30 GMT
> But even in less precise types of writing than technical manuals,
> I would imagine there are some agreed-upon ways for certain types
> of passages or phrases or even particular words to be translated.
> Maybe the people who are actually translators can speak to this?

In translation of patents, I know that there are a lot of set phrases
that have to be translated the same way, always, but I don't translate
patents, so I don't know more about that. I can imagine that it's the
same with legal texts. I don't translate those either, so I'm pretty
free to translate as I please. :)

You are both right, a translation is always an interpretation of a text,
but if it's a factual text, the translator has to be very careful not to
change the meaning of the original. In fiction translation, the
translator has more freedom, and if it's a good translation, it can be a
work of art in its own right.

One reason why you are finding certain set phrases might be that that is
how they say it in Japanese, and so every Japanese person who translates
it into English (probably unknowingly) translates it the same way. I do
a lot of editing of English text written by Finnish-speakers, and I see
this a lot. It really helps to speak the language of the person who has
written the (bad) English. If someone has been 'writing Finnish with
English words' I can usually interpret what they meant to say, and
correct the text accordingly. But I've also had to edit some articles
written by Russians in English. Now, I don't speak Russian. Sometimes, I
just can't make head or tail of what they're trying to say. It looks to
me like just random words strung together. Unfortunately, my department
has an on-going cooperation with a Russian university, and they have an
annual conference, and I have to edit the conference articles before
they're printed. That is one of the jobs I dread the most. ;)

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.

Joy - 06 Sep 2007 08:48 GMT
>> But even in less precise types of writing than technical manuals,
>> I would imagine there are some agreed-upon ways for certain types
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> and I have to edit the conference articles before they're printed. That is
> one of the jobs I dread the most. ;)

Although I don't speak a word of Finnish, I know exactly what you mean about
'writing Finnish with English words'.  I have a home-based word processing
business. One of my clients is Iranian, and he often 'writes Persian with
English words'.  Most of the time I can figure out what he means, but
sometimes I have to get him to explain it to me in different words.

Joy
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 09 Sep 2007 22:47 GMT
> One reason why you are finding certain set phrases might be that that is
> how they say it in Japanese, and so every Japanese person who translates
> it into English (probably unknowingly) translates it the same way.

I haven't found that to be the case, though. I've reviewed a few manuals
that were originally in Japanese and translated to English. They had
different problems. One of them was just awful and I basically had to
rewrite all the text. Another wasn't too bad, except for the occasional
(sometimes funny) odd phrase. One of my favorites was about how and where
to store a large piece of medical equipment. Don't keep it where it might
get wet, or be exposed to dust, etc. And, "Do not store the equipment in
the place that has the remarkable inclination." :)

However, I do agree that in terms of word-flow, translations often end
up sounding a bit odd, even if they make sense (ie, even if you know
what it's saying). That would be, as you put it, "writing Japanese
using English words". (Substitute languages as needed.)

> I've also had to edit some articles
> written by Russians in English. Now, I don't speak Russian. Sometimes, I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> annual conference, and I have to edit the conference articles before
> they're printed. That is one of the jobs I dread the most. ;)

Interesting that of all the languages to be hard to decipher when
translated into English (poorly), Russian would be the most confusing.
I haven't as yet had that experience, but since Russian is part of the
Indo-European family, I would expect English written by a Russian to
sound better than English written by a Japanese. Maybe the particular
people who write those brochures are just bad writers/translators?
Someone could be bilingual, but that doesn't mean they're a good
writer, in either language.

Joyce
Marina - 10 Sep 2007 04:05 GMT
> Interesting that of all the languages to be hard to decipher when
> translated into English (poorly), Russian would be the most confusing.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Someone could be bilingual, but that doesn't mean they're a good
> writer, in either language.

They're computer scientists, so not necessarily good linguists or good
writers in any language.

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.

jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 10 Sep 2007 04:07 GMT
>> Maybe the particular
>> people who write those brochures are just bad writers/translators?
>> Someone could be bilingual, but that doesn't mean they're a good
>> writer, in either language.

> They're computer scientists, so not necessarily good linguists or good
> writers in any language.

Ah, that explains it. :) I have a hard time understanding some things
written by computer nerds even when English is their first language!

Joyce
Marina - 06 Sep 2007 08:33 GMT
> And I do read in Finnish if the original book is in Finnish. I prefer to
> read a book in the original language if I know the language well enough,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> or that, and the original may give a different feel for the text than
> the translation.

The reason I don't read much in Finnish is that I'm just not that
interested in the books published here. I think maybe I was born in the
wrong country. ;)

I don't read many translations, either, except some Latin American
writers (Mario Vargas Llhosa, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Isabel Allende),
because I don't speak Spanish.

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Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.

Joy - 06 Sep 2007 08:46 GMT
>> And I do read in Finnish if the original book is in Finnish. I prefer to
>> read a book in the original language if I know the language well enough,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> (Mario Vargas Llhosa, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Isabel Allende), because I
> don't speak Spanish.

I am in awe of you, and others, who speak multiple languages!  I know a
little Spanish, and a few words in several languages, but I'm not fluent in
any language except English.

Joy
Baha - 11 Sep 2007 22:38 GMT
>I am in awe of you, and others, who speak multiple languages!  I know a
>little Spanish, and a few words in several languages, but I'm not fluent in
>any language except English.

I've always wanted to learn Finnish, just to prove I can.

Blessed be,
Baha
(Elizabeth Bahadur Kaur, "sanctified couragous princess/lioness." How would
that translate to Finnish?)
Marina - 12 Sep 2007 03:52 GMT
> (Elizabeth Bahadur Kaur, "sanctified couragous princess/lioness." How would
> that translate to Finnish?)

That would be 'pyhitetty rohkea/urhoollinen prinsessa/naarasleijona.'

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.

jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 12 Sep 2007 06:05 GMT
>> (Elizabeth Bahadur Kaur, "sanctified couragous princess/lioness." How would
>> that translate to Finnish?)

> That would be 'pyhitetty rohkea/urhoollinen prinsessa/naarasleijona.'

Of course, this does not tell us how to pronounce it! :-P

Joyce
Marina - 12 Sep 2007 06:14 GMT
>  > Baha via CatKB.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Of course, this does not tell us how to pronounce it! :-P

Yeah, that would be hard to explain without using phonetic symbols, and
even then... the Finnish y, for example, is a sound that doesn't really
exist in English. It's a bit like that sound that's spelled 'eeww'. ;) Ü
in German, u in French. Double letters are always pronounced as long
sounds, but the emphasis of words is always on the first syllable in
Finnish. Confused yet?

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.

jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 12 Sep 2007 06:27 GMT
> Yeah, that would be hard to explain without using phonetic symbols, and
> even then... the Finnish y, for example, is a sound that doesn't really
> exist in English. It's a bit like that sound that's spelled 'eeww'. ;) ?
> in German, u in French. Double letters are always pronounced as long
> sounds, but the emphasis of words is always on the first syllable in
> Finnish. Confused yet?

Actually, the double letters being held longer sounds logical. I mean,
you have two of them, so you should say the sound longer. Makes sense
to me. :)

I studied French in high school, and one of my teachers did a good job
of explaining how to say the "u" sound: make a circle with your lips as
though you're going to say "ooo", but then say "ee". (Don't move your
lips.) Works perfectly. Ditto for the similar German vowel.

I have a question about the word "naarasleijona". I assume that
"leijona" means lion. Or does it mean lioness? Or does "naaras" mean
female? Just curious.

I like the rule about the stress always being on the first syllable.
That certainly simplifies things!

Joyce
Marina - 12 Sep 2007 06:36 GMT
>  > Yeah, that would be hard to explain without using phonetic symbols, and
>  > even then... the Finnish y, for example, is a sound that doesn't really
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> "leijona" means lion. Or does it mean lioness? Or does "naaras" mean
> female? Just curious.

Leijona means lion and naaras means female (animal).

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.

Christine K. - 06 Sep 2007 15:08 GMT
Marina kirjoitti:

>> And I do read in Finnish if the original book is in Finnish. I prefer
>> to read a book in the original language if I know the language well
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> writers (Mario Vargas Llhosa, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Isabel Allende),
> because I don't speak Spanish.

I don't read that much in Finnish either, except user manuals and
recipes...  :) Off the top of my head I seem to remember two books that
I have in Finnish, that haven't got to me accidentally, in other words
that I've bought myself:
- Sinuhe Egyptiläinen (Sinuhe the Egyptian) by Mika Waltari
- Sotaromaani ("The War Novel") by Väinö Linna
I confess I don't know their officially translated names in English, but
those are direct translations of the names.

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Christine in Laitila, Finland
christal63 (at) gmail (dot) com
photos: http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb108/christal63/
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William Hamblen - 08 Sep 2007 01:56 GMT
>I don't read that much in Finnish either, except user manuals and
>recipes...  :) Off the top of my head I seem to remember two books that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I confess I don't know their officially translated names in English, but
>those are direct translations of the names.

I think the only Finn who ever made much of an impact over here was
Sibelius and music requires no translation.

Bud
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The night is just the shadow of the Earth.

Baha - 11 Sep 2007 22:35 GMT
>I think the only Finn who ever made much of an impact over here was
>Sibelius and music requires no translation.

And maybe The Kalevala, which is like the Finnish Iliad and (in my opinion)
one of the greatest epic myths in history. In parts of the eastern US and
Ontario, Canada, a minor Wiccan/Shamanistic tradition uses Kalevala mythology
as its base; I have no doubt it has its North American roots in Canada
(Thunder Bay) and spread into Western New York and northwest PA where some
still practice "Kalevic magic."

And "Finlandia" remains one of my favorite classical pieces, along with "The
Great Gate of Kiev."

Blessed be,
Baha
Baha - 11 Sep 2007 00:25 GMT
Although I do like a certain translation of The Kalevala where a giant (I
think; it's been a while) is referred to as "Rocky Horror, son of dread." In
the notes the translator said "The name of a popular rock musical came in
handy."

Blessed be,
Baha
Kyllikki rocks!

>Christine K. kirjoitti:
>> jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net kirjoitti:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>or that, and the original may give a different feel for the text than
>the translation.

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