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OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment

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Exocat - 09 Nov 2004 18:36 GMT
Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with
this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?

My neighbour's been taking this supplement for some months and swears
by it. Slightly more on-topic his elderly Golden Retriever is
benefitting too.

I already take Celecoxib as a NSAID to keep inflammation down as a
result of 3 lumbar spinal laminectomies, and further wondered if there
might be any risk of conflict (haven't wanted to trouble my very busy
G.P. with a query yet).

TIA for any info.

Purrs

Gordon & the TT

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dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers - 09 Nov 2004 19:07 GMT
>Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with
>this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?

Excellent for keeping the joints supple and in good working order. I take it
daily and it reduces the aches of cycling brilliantly. As for risks of
conflicting with your existing medication regime, you really should check with
your doc before trying anything new.

Cheers, helen s

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Denise VanDyke - 09 Nov 2004 19:18 GMT
> Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with
> this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Gordon & the TT

Dunno about interactions with other drugs/supplements, but everyone I
know who has tried Glucosamine (often paired with Condroitin, but not
always) has said it was the greatest thing.  As I understand it, they
are supposed to help promote the growth of fresh cartilege which should
help reduce the pain associated with arthritis.  I'd suggest that you
ask your GP or a Pharmacist/Chemist (depending on which term you use)
about the possibility of interactions.

Denise (owned and manipulated by Brenna)
LMarks - 09 Nov 2004 19:22 GMT
> Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with
> this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> might be any risk of conflict (haven't wanted to trouble my very busy
> G.P. with a query yet).

I can't address the issue of Glucosamine conflicting with anything else but
it has worked well for my mother (age 89) who has taken it for a number of
years (she takes no prescription drugs) - she lives independently, her home
is immaculate, she gardens for hours on end, has been raking leaves every
day and goes for a walk every day.  She used to take can't-think-of-the-name
prescription for arthritis but is much happier with
glucosamine.........Lorna
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 10 Nov 2004 04:39 GMT
> I can't address the issue of Glucosamine conflicting with anything else but
> it has worked well for my mother (age 89) who has taken it for a number of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> prescription for arthritis but is much happier with
> glucosamine.........Lorna

I tried one of the glucosamine/chondritin products (from
Trader Joe's - their supplements are good, and not as
expensive as name brands).  I didn't find that it made much
difference, but then my symptoms aren't severe - just a
general stiffness when I've been sitting in one position for
too long.

When I mentioned that Melisande sometimes stretches out her
hind leg as though she had cramp (the one she broke and had
in a cast so long a few years ago), my vet suggested giving
HER the same preparation (but lesser dosage, of course).
Norm - 09 Nov 2004 21:23 GMT
> Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with
> this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?

Terrific stuff, 4.5 years now.  Before I was having trouble with even
25mi rides.  As suggested you may want to check with your doctor and
also conside glucousamine chronditin - the sulfate purported raises
chloresterol.  HTH, Norm

--
"The web has got me caught.  I'd rather have the blues than what I've
got."  <via Nat King Cole
Norm - 10 Nov 2004 11:31 GMT
> Terrific stuff, 4.5 years now.  Before I was having trouble with even
> 25mi rides.  As suggested you may want to check with your doctor and
> also conside glucousamine chronditin - the sulfate purported raises
> chloresterol.  HTH, Norm

Neglected to add:  ittakes about a month for impreovement to take hold
and doses should be daily and about a gram.  Norm

--
"The web has got me caught.  I'd rather have the blues than what I've
got."  <via Nat King Cole
Ted Davis - 09 Nov 2004 21:49 GMT
>Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with
>this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>TIA for any info.

I was able to drop Naproxen in favor of one asprin and two
acetaminophen pills a day.  Most days I really don't need those.
There was no interactiont with Naproxen, but after a few weeks, I
didn't hurt any more so I dropped it.

T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu)
SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D."
somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected.
Howard Berkowitz - 25 Nov 2004 16:27 GMT
> >Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with
> >this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> There was no interactiont with Naproxen, but after a few weeks, I
> didn't hurt any more so I dropped it.

What were your goals with the substitution?  A single aspirin (actually
a 81 mg rather than standard adult 325 mg) will have no particular
effects either on pain or inflammation, but generally has cardiac and
other system protective benefits. It's probably reasonable for anyone
over 35, or people with risk factors and are under 35, to take daily
aspirin unless there are specific contraindications. Reasons not to take
it include it triggering asthmatic reactions, the presence of active
bleeding or clotting disorders, or triggering significant stomach upset.  
I've not seen reports of these beneficial effects in cats.  Aspirin is
also generally contraindicated in children under 14, without specific
medical supervision.  NSAIDs such as naproxen and ibuprofen can
interfere with its cardioprotective effects when the drugs are taken
together.

Acetaminophen is purely a pain and fever reducing drug and has no
anti-inflammatory properties. It's probably superior to NSAIDs such as
naproxen for headache, but that's very individual.

Naproxen does have both pain and anti=inflammatory properties.
Interestingly, the over-the-counter dose and usual prescription dose of
naproxen are the same (when last I looked, it's still a prescription
drug in Canada; can't speak for other countries), where the over the
counter dose of ibuprofen, in the same chemical family, is adequate for
pain control but not inflammation reduction.

Acetaminophen and ibuprofen have comparable duration of action, while
naproxen is considerably longer-acting. The anti-inflammatory activity
of naproxen and ibuprofen is roughly comparable, both being in the
propionic acid family, although there are some studies that give naproxe
a slight superiority.

I don't have a strong opinion on glucosamine and chondroitin. I suppose
I tend to look a little more critically at "alternative" medications for
which we don't have a good explanation of the mode of action at a
molecular level. That isn't to say we fully understand all the molecular
pharmacology of "mainstream" drugs, or their behavior in special cases,
but the general level of molecular medicine has so advanced that I tend
to expect molecular explanations, as well as reasonable controlled
trials.
Seanette Blaylock - 25 Nov 2004 17:37 GMT
Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things
to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment:

>Acetaminophen is purely a pain and fever reducing drug and has no
>anti-inflammatory properties. It's probably superior to NSAIDs such as
>naproxen for headache, but that's very individual.

Do you know if it's an unusual side effect for acetaminophen to be
sedating? If I take the stuff, it puts me to sleep.

>Naproxen does have both pain and anti=inflammatory properties.
>Interestingly, the over-the-counter dose and usual prescription dose of
>naproxen are the same (when last I looked, it's still a prescription
>drug in Canada; can't speak for other countries), where the over the
>counter dose of ibuprofen, in the same chemical family, is adequate for
>pain control but not inflammation reduction.

Naproxen is OTC in the US [Aleve is the brand name that comes
immediately to mind].

>I don't have a strong opinion on glucosamine and chondroitin. I suppose
>I tend to look a little more critically at "alternative" medications for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>but the general level of molecular medicine has so advanced that I tend
>to expect molecular explanations, as well as reasonable controlled trials.

My DH tried glucosamine chondroitin and found very little effect on
his arthritis. He also thought he'd seen something somewhere about it
affecting blood sugar control in diabetics, so decided he'd better
drop it.

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:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL
Howard Berkowitz - 25 Nov 2004 19:06 GMT
> Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things
> to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Do you know if it's an unusual side effect for acetaminophen to be
> sedating? If I take the stuff, it puts me to sleep.

That would be unusual, but I never rule out any side effect in an
individual. Acetaminophen, as opposed to aspirin and salicylates, the
general group of NSAIDs, and newer drugs such as the COX-2 inhibitors,
works only in the central nervous system.  All the others work in
muscle, skin and nerve, and, to varying extents, in internal organs. The
NSAIDs, for example, are especially effective in suppressing
prostaglandin generation in the uterus, and can be used to prevent, not
just treat, menstrual cramps.

The general NSAIDs, as opposed to the COX-2 inhibitors, are less
selective, and also suppress naturally produced chemicals that cause the
creation of protective mucus in the stomach -- hence their tendency to
cause inflammation.


> >Naproxen does have both pain and anti=inflammatory properties.
> >Interestingly, the over-the-counter dose and usual prescription dose of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Naproxen is OTC in the US [Aleve is the brand name that comes
> immediately to mind].

Correct. There are other brands and, I belive, generics. Mind you, I've
always felt that the generic name "NAProxen" was wasted on anything not
a sleeping pill. :-)

> >I don't have a strong opinion on glucosamine and chondroitin. I suppose
> >I tend to look a little more critically at "alternative" medications for
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> affecting blood sugar control in diabetics, so decided he'd better
> drop it.
Sherry - 25 Nov 2004 18:09 GMT
>I've not seen reports of these beneficial effects in cats.

Cherokee was prescribed 1/4 baby aspirin every other day for the last five
years of his life after having a stroke. He never had another stroke, and never
exhibited any adverse reactions to the low dose aspirin. Whether that prevented
another stroke, or it's just coincidence I guess we'll never know.

Sherry
Howard Berkowitz - 25 Nov 2004 19:14 GMT
> >I've not seen reports of these beneficial effects in cats.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> prevented
> another stroke, or it's just coincidence I guess we'll never know.

Aspirin after a stroke, possibly with other antiplatelet drugs, is the
standard of care in humans. I simply lack data on its effectiveness in
cats, but if 20 mg/day is nontoxic to cats, it makes perfectly good
sense.

There's more and more work on stroke prevention in humans, although I
don't know when and if some of the techniques will be practical for
cats. After roughly age 60, or in the presence of risk factors, it makes
good medical sense to do periodic ultrasound of the carotid arteries.  
When they reach a certain level of partial blockage, the statistical
evidence is fairly solid that intervention prevents many strokes.

The standard procedure, carotid endarterectomy, is a surprisingly simple
replacement of the blocked part with a graft -- it's not an office
procedure, but perhaps an overnight stay.  Less invasive methods of
inserting a stent (think "tent") inside the blood vessel, inserted from
inside under X-ray vision, is more experimental, but may eventually be
as good as endarterectomy. I have no idea if this is done in cats.

Just a general note, more for humans -- some organizations are, I think
wisely, suggesting substituting the term "brain attack" for "stroke".
Too many people that realize there are urgent interventions for heart
attack don't realize that there are also interventions that can limit or
reverse damage in early stroke, but they must be done quickly after the
start of the episode -- low number of hours.
Sherry - 26 Nov 2004 02:27 GMT
>The standard procedure, carotid endarterectomy, is a surprisingly simple
>replacement of the blocked part with a graft -- it's not an office
>procedure, but perhaps an overnight stay.  

Carotid artery surgery is a walk in the park. It's the easiest one I've ever
had done. Except for looking a little Frankenstein-ish afterwards. Turtlenecks
are my best friend now.

Sherry
Howard Berkowitz - 26 Nov 2004 03:00 GMT
> >The standard procedure, carotid endarterectomy, is a surprisingly simple
> >replacement of the blocked part with a graft -- it's not an office
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Sherry

You want Frankenstein?

<Jack Nicholson>

You can't handle Frankenstein!

</Jack Nicholson>

A dearly missed late manager of mine was one of those people who decided
to become extremely health conscious in his fifties. Before long, he was
a nationally rated, masters division rollerblader.

One day, when rollerblading with his son, Karl just sort of
thought..."gee, that looks like a patch of oil on the path..."  and
awakened in the ambulance.  No real damage, but he took several nasty
facial lacerations.

He was quite a good-looking man, and it was very reasonable that the
reconstruction involved a qualified plastic surgeon. The technique
involved, however, required that the facial sutures have a plastic
anchor at the end.  I'd swear they looked exactly like the corks in the
temples of the Frankenstein monster.  The technique was very successful
-- some visibly messy cuts healed without any scarring.
Marina - 26 Nov 2004 10:56 GMT
>>>The standard procedure, carotid endarterectomy, is a surprisingly simple
>>>replacement of the blocked part with a graft -- it's not an office
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> temples of the Frankenstein monster.  The technique was very successful
> -- some visibly messy cuts healed without any scarring.

Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my
thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck.

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Sherry - 26 Nov 2004 15:25 GMT
>Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my
>thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck.

Wasn't it creepy the first time you looked in a mirror? Egad. I ended up
allergic to the monofilament stitches and all my incisions got horribly messed
up. It's a good thing I never was vain. The only thing that really bugs me is
that now my belly button is on my side. Remember the cartoon "Badly Animated
Man?" LOL That's what it reminds me of. The only incision that healed well was
the one on my neck, though.
Sherry
Kreisleriana - 26 Nov 2004 16:26 GMT
>>Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my
>>thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>the one on my neck, though.
>Sherry

I've had the thyroid surgery.  You can hardly see the scar at all.  My
surgeon was so proud of it, I wanted to bust him one. :P

Theresa
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My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com
Marina - 26 Nov 2004 16:59 GMT
> I've had the thyroid surgery.  You can hardly see the scar at all.  My
> surgeon was so proud of it, I wanted to bust him one. :P

Was your whole thyroid gland removed? They had to remove all of mine
because it had a malignant tumour in it. Luckily, they got it all and I
was pronounced 'clean' three years later. :o)

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Howard Berkowitz - 26 Nov 2004 17:13 GMT
> >>Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my
> >>thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I've had the thyroid surgery.  You can hardly see the scar at all.  My
> surgeon was so proud of it, I wanted to bust him one. :P

I began serious reading of medical texts at a quite early age. When I
was scheduled for a tonsillectomy at age 13, I read up on the procedure,
and learned the most common reason for postoperative bleeding was
coughing.

So, after I woke up, I concentrated on not coughing -- nothing that was
mentioned by the staff. The desire to cough is often overwhelming --
sometimes soft and liquid foods can avert it, but one's throat may be
too sore to use them.

In any event, the procedure was done in a teaching hospital, and the
attending surgeon was exceptionally pleased with the lack of
complicaitons, frequently awakening me to show me off to students.
Eventually, he pried my mouth open one time too many, and I clamped down
on his fingers.

Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have
the satisfaction of having a 13=year old growl hoarsely, "I'm tired of
your patronizing and boasting. The reason I'm not hemorrhaging is that I
took the trouble to learn about avoiding problems -- instructions you
didn't give me. Now, unless you have something clinically relevant to
do, go put ice on your fingers and let me go back to sleep."

Certain speech patterns can develop earlier than most people believe.
Cheryl Perkins - 26 Nov 2004 17:23 GMT
<snip>
> Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have
> the satisfaction of having a 13=year old growl hoarsely, "I'm tired of
> your patronizing and boasting. The reason I'm not hemorrhaging is that I
> took the trouble to learn about avoiding problems -- instructions you
> didn't give me. Now, unless you have something clinically relevant to
> do, go put ice on your fingers and let me go back to sleep."

> Certain speech patterns can develop earlier than most people believe.

I'm impressed. I bit a dentist - actually, an orthodontist - but I didn't
have the foresight to read up on what he was doing or the presence of
mind to tell him off.

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Cheryl

Howard Berkowitz - 26 Nov 2004 18:47 GMT
> <snip>
> > Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> have the foresight to read up on what he was doing or the presence of
> mind to tell him off.

When hospitalized, I tend to think of myself as an inpatient.

In fairness, I have spent a good deal of my professional career studying
the oral and written communications patterns that physicians use in
communicating with one another. There are limited parallels, to putting
things in context, to establishing dominance in medical interactions.

I'm not trying to be top cat, but I will insist on being a cat that is
not trivialized. In practice, I often intersperse certain speech or
logic patterns -- not necessarily vocabulary -- into the interaction
when a history is being taken, which can cause distinctive doubletakes,
ranging from "WHAT did you say you did for a living" to simply noting
the clinician, not even being particularly aware of doing so, start
addressing me as Doctor.

This can become high performance art. I must say that I thoroughly
enjoyed dealing with frustration at the time of my first angioplasty.
Really, I was tolerant of the sequence of medical students and interns
coming, one after the other, to practice history taking.

When an especially pompous cardiology fellow, with a gaggle of junior in
trail, came in to inquire "And how are we today? And what brings us to
the hospital?", I responded:

"Without performing a history and physical, and any indicated testing, I
cannot give an opinion on how you are. It would be a reasonable
presumption that you were brought to the hospital by the terms of your
contract.

"As far as myself (shifting tones), this is a (as I was at the time)
39-year old well developed, well nourished computer science status post
one month of onset of unstable angina of one-block effort, unresponsive
to medical management. Initial presentation was significant for
posterior pain with radiation into the left arm and sternum, exacerbated
by exercise and relieved with organic nitrates. ECG was nonspecific
other than QT prolongation, with an isoelectric ST segment. Cardiac
enzymes were within normal limits. ICU monitoring revealed occasional
bigeminy but no significant ST abnormalities..."

And on and on, system by system, test by test, rejected differential
diagnosis after rejected differential diagnosis, until coming to the key
tests that were positive. He sputtered "Mr. Berkowitz, you certainly
seem to know a lot about your disease."

Ignoring that, I switched into my most pompous professor mode, and
commented, "I'm sure you noted the pattern of idiopathic hypokalemia.
Would you enlighten us, Doctor (this is the standard way a senior puts a
junior on the spot) about your differential diagnosis and treatment plan
for this possibly significant metabolic abnormality?"
Seanette Blaylock - 26 Nov 2004 20:25 GMT
Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things
to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment:

>I'm not trying to be top cat, but I will insist on being a cat that is
>not trivialized. In practice, I often intersperse certain speech or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>the clinician, not even being particularly aware of doing so, start
>addressing me as Doctor.

I'm sorry, but I can't remember what it is you said you *do* do. Must
be amusing to hear that switch to Doctor. :-)

>This can become high performance art. I must say that I thoroughly
>enjoyed dealing with frustration at the time of my first angioplasty.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>presumption that you were brought to the hospital by the terms of your
>contract.

Good one! :-) [I hate that "we" garbage. Sounds like some of my more
annoying grade school teachers.]

Signature

"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be
doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.

:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL
Howard Berkowitz - 27 Nov 2004 00:18 GMT
> Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things
> to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I'm sorry, but I can't remember what it is you said you *do* do. Must
> be amusing to hear that switch to Doctor. :-)

Among other things, I develop medical software for clinical use,
including expert systems for prescribing.

> >This can become high performance art. I must say that I thoroughly
> >enjoyed dealing with frustration at the time of my first angioplasty.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Good one! :-) [I hate that "we" garbage. Sounds like some of my more
> annoying grade school teachers.]
Christine Burel - 26 Nov 2004 22:00 GMT
Loved this story, too -- so did DH!  I have to say from past times with
doctors who treated me like I had half a brain, I wanted to cheer when I
read these anecdotes!
Christine

> > <snip>
> > > Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> junior on the spot) about your differential diagnosis and treatment plan
> for this possibly significant metabolic abnormality?"
Howard Berkowitz - 27 Nov 2004 00:24 GMT
> Loved this story, too -- so did DH!  I have to say from past times with
> doctors who treated me like I had half a brain, I wanted to cheer when I
> read these anecdotes!
> Christine

Oh, there are many, including times I was the butt of the joke. Apropos
of brain halves, however, I was accompanying my ex-wife to the
neurosurgeon who would do her brain biopsy. He asked for questions, and
I asked the seemingly reasonable question "from what structure (of the
brain) will you take the sample?"

Neurologist:  "Structure? *cackle* DA BRAIN!"

Me (to wife):  "Oh good. I was worried we had come to podiatry."

She contributed her bit A couple of days after the operation, the
neurosurgery fellows came around to check progress. A mini-mental status
exam is a proper part of such an exam, checking if the patient knows who
and where they are, and working from there.

Neurosurgery fellow: "Do you remember who I am?"

Wife:  "Yes. You're the jerk who wouldn't believe I was training for
competition bodybuilding before these problems. HOWARD! Get the
scrapbook out of the drawer."

She pointed to several muscle poses, and inquired if he knew which
muscles were being flexed.

Neurosurgery fellow: "Ummmm...I don't think we need to continue the
mental status exam"

Wife, in sugary tones: "Be careful in your studies. You are picking up
entirely too much of your @$E! professor's conversational and social
skills."

> > > <snip>
> > > > Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> >
> > When hospitalized, I tend to think of myself as an inpatient.

That should have been "impatient'.
Sherry - 29 Nov 2004 18:00 GMT
>Loved this story, too -- so did DH!  I have to say from past times with
>doctors who treated me like I had half a brain, I wanted to cheer when I
>read these anecdotes!
>Christine

Don't ever let a doctor treat you like you have half a brain. They're mostly
pompous a.sholes, with a few exceptions. I fired one cardiologst for that very
reason, fired another one because he was too "important" to be accessible to
his patients. Hell if I'm going to spend over $100,000 on medical care, just
have his RN making rounds for him and intercepting his calls. I've got a
daughter who's a critical cardiac care RN I can talk to for free.

Sherry
Sherry
Christine Burel - 26 Nov 2004 18:52 GMT
> > >>Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my
> > >>thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Certain speech patterns can develop earlier than most people believe.

This was a great story, Howard!  Pardon me if you've already answered this
but did you become a physician as an adult  (and if so, what kind?) or are
just proactively extremely well-informed?  Curious because I do an awful lot
of medical reading myself 'cause of some issues my kids have.
Regards,
Christine
Howard Berkowitz - 27 Nov 2004 00:13 GMT
> This was a great story, Howard!  Pardon me if you've already answered
> this
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Regards,
> Christine

It's more accurate to say "I'm not a physician, but I simulate them on
computers."  My major professional areas, which overlap to a degree, are
high-performance networking and medical informatics. I started in
biochemistry and moved into computer science, but I routinely read
current journals, attend continuing medical education, and interact with
physicians on a professional level.

Going back to 1970 or so, I developed various expert systems to assist
physicians or even substitute in some parts of the process. My interests
tend to be now both in expert prescribing systems and emergency/disaster
interest, with a strong interest in clinical pharmacology.

To build an expert system that will "sound right" to a physician, you
have to understand how physicians communicate with one another.  An
excellent introduction is in Michael Crichton's paperback _Five
Patients_, which is obsolescent in some areas (telemedicine and
intensive care), but has an excellent discussion of physician
communication.  A good backup for this is some study of cultural
anthropology and understanding the difference between high-context and
low-context human communications.

Inter-physician communications are extremely high-context. When
discussing history, physical, or diagnostic workup, everyone involved
has a generally common mental map. One clinician may ask a question, for
example, about the result of a part of an examination. The other
clinician may respond with an apparently unrelated laboratory result.

The two, however, are quite related in the underlying context. The first
physician was asking about a physical exam finding that might suggest
one disease, and the second clinician realizes what the first one has in
mind. Rather than answering directly, he or she might cite a laboratory
value that rules out the first hypothesis. Crichton gives an example of
two physicians ruling out diabetic complications without ever mentioning
diabetes.
Seanette Blaylock - 26 Nov 2004 20:23 GMT
Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things
to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment:

>In any event, the procedure was done in a teaching hospital, and the
>attending surgeon was exceptionally pleased with the lack of
>complicaitons, frequently awakening me to show me off to students.
>Eventually, he pried my mouth open one time too many, and I clamped down
>on his fingers.

:-)

I once knew a woman who swore she had kicked her gynecologist in the
face for not exercising sufficient care during an exam. :-)

>Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have
>the satisfaction of having a 13=year old growl hoarsely, "I'm tired of
>your patronizing and boasting. The reason I'm not hemorrhaging is that I
>took the trouble to learn about avoiding problems -- instructions you
>didn't give me. Now, unless you have something clinically relevant to
>do, go put ice on your fingers and let me go back to sleep."

You sound like quite a kid. I think he had it coming. :-)

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doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.

:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL
Howard Berkowitz - 27 Nov 2004 00:17 GMT
> Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things
> to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I once knew a woman who swore she had kicked her gynecologist in the
> face for not exercising sufficient care during an exam. :-)

BEVERAGE WARNING....

Ex-wife #2 developed abdominal pain, and we rushed off to the ER. Our
personal internist happened to be there, and suggested he also do a
pelvic.

Unfortunately, Michael had sprained his wrist a couple of weeks ago,
playing tennis. It was his exploring hand. Unfortunately, during the
pelvic, there was a loud CRAAACK from his wrist, followed by a scream
from my wife. Nothing broken, but he had a tendon whip back and forth
and cause an involuntary jerk of his whole hand.

It happened that the internist, my wife, and myself happened to use the
same hand surgeon. My wife said that before Michael would be allowed to
touch her there again, he would have to have a note clearing him from
Bruce, the hand surgeon.

When next we were at the hand surgeon's office, she told him the story.
We had forgotten that before he retrained in hand surgery, he was a
board-certified OB/GYN.  He laughed so hard that he had tears running
down his face, and then called the internist to lecture him (and, given
the tone of his voice and continuing hysterics, the rest of the office0.

> >Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have
> >the satisfaction of having a 13=year old growl hoarsely, "I'm tired of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You sound like quite a kid. I think he had it coming. :-)
Marina - 26 Nov 2004 16:38 GMT
>>Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my
>>thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the one on my neck, though.
> Sherry

LOL! The worst thing for me, I think, was that they removed the stitches
 on the fourth day (!!!) after the surgery and put these little flimsy
pieces of tape instead. I was sure my head would fall off! :oD

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Victor Martinez - 10 Nov 2004 03:34 GMT
> Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with
> this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?

My mom heard about it from her sister, who asked her to bring some with
her last time she came to visit (they stopped selling it in Mexico due
to Mad Cow fears). So my mom brought back an extra bottle for herself to
try it. She said it helped her with her joints and now she takes it
religiously.

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Yowie - 11 Nov 2004 23:26 GMT
> > Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with
> > this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> try it. She said it helped her with her joints and now she takes it
> religiously.

Omega 3 Fatty acids are also supposed to be good for some forms of
arthritis. Cod liver oil being a wonderful source (you can get it in capsule
form now, for those who are shuddering at the thought)

Yowie
CatNipped - 10 Nov 2004 15:42 GMT
I've heard differing things about Glucosamine.  First, here's some info on
it from the web:

========================================================

What It Is:
Glucosamine, chondroitin sulfate, and MSM (methylsulfonylmethane) occur
naturally in the body. The glucosamine used in supplements is typically
derived from the shells of crabs although a corn source is also available.
Glucosamine is available in a variety of chemical forms, such as glucosamine
hydrochloride and glucosamine sulfate. These vary in terms of the amount of
actual glucosamine available for use in the body from an equal weight of
each form . Chondroitin sulfate is generally derived from cow cartilage, but
porcine (pig) and even chicken cartilage has been used and algae are another
potential source. MSM is synthetically produced.

What It Does:
Glucosamine and Chondroitin:
Glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate supplements are used to slow the
progression of osteoarthritis - the deterioration of cartilage between joint
bones - and to reduce the associated pain. Glucosamine is thought to promote
the formation and repair of cartilage. Chondroitin is believed to promote
water retention and elasticity in cartilage and inhibit enzymes that break
down cartilage. In veterinary medicine, glucosamine and chondroitin, often
in combination, are commonly used in the treatment of degenerative joint
disease - typically in older dogs and cats as well as in horses.

=========================================================

I've heard some doctors say that, when ingesting it, it is treated like
other "by-products" of food (shells, bones, etc.) and just discarded by the
body rather than metabolized, and that it is no more than a placebo.  Other
people swear by it (and *my* doctor recommended it - although he did say to
get it from a manufacturer outside of the US since everything made in the US
is so watered down because of FDA regulations as to be useless).  *But*
placebos often work wonders for people who believe in their benefits.

I took it every day for over a year and didn't see any differences - but
then again I have fibromyalgia as well as osteoarthritis, so the pain could
have been because of that and not alleviated by the Glucosamine.

Hugs,

CatNipped

> Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with this
> product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Gordon & the TT
Exocat - 10 Nov 2004 18:58 GMT
Thanks, everyone, for your highly valuable (& valued) input.

I'll check out any possible conflict with the Doc. & then give it a
try, perhaps even replacing prescription meds. for a month or so
(shame they're the ones that come free) to get a true comparison.

PS to CatNipped: I have a question for you off-list: could you advise
your unmunged e-mail addy please? (replace my  x  with an  m  to
unmunge mine). TIA

Purrs to all

Gordon & the TT

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