Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / November 2004
OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment
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Exocat - 09 Nov 2004 18:36 GMT Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate?
My neighbour's been taking this supplement for some months and swears by it. Slightly more on-topic his elderly Golden Retriever is benefitting too.
I already take Celecoxib as a NSAID to keep inflammation down as a result of 3 lumbar spinal laminectomies, and further wondered if there might be any risk of conflict (haven't wanted to trouble my very busy G.P. with a query yet).
TIA for any info.
Purrs
Gordon & the TT
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dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers - 09 Nov 2004 19:07 GMT >Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with >this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate? Excellent for keeping the joints supple and in good working order. I take it daily and it reduces the aches of cycling brilliantly. As for risks of conflicting with your existing medication regime, you really should check with your doc before trying anything new.
Cheers, helen s
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Denise VanDyke - 09 Nov 2004 19:18 GMT > Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with > this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Gordon & the TT Dunno about interactions with other drugs/supplements, but everyone I know who has tried Glucosamine (often paired with Condroitin, but not always) has said it was the greatest thing. As I understand it, they are supposed to help promote the growth of fresh cartilege which should help reduce the pain associated with arthritis. I'd suggest that you ask your GP or a Pharmacist/Chemist (depending on which term you use) about the possibility of interactions.
Denise (owned and manipulated by Brenna)
LMarks - 09 Nov 2004 19:22 GMT > Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with > this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > might be any risk of conflict (haven't wanted to trouble my very busy > G.P. with a query yet). I can't address the issue of Glucosamine conflicting with anything else but it has worked well for my mother (age 89) who has taken it for a number of years (she takes no prescription drugs) - she lives independently, her home is immaculate, she gardens for hours on end, has been raking leaves every day and goes for a walk every day. She used to take can't-think-of-the-name prescription for arthritis but is much happier with glucosamine.........Lorna
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 10 Nov 2004 04:39 GMT > I can't address the issue of Glucosamine conflicting with anything else but > it has worked well for my mother (age 89) who has taken it for a number of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > prescription for arthritis but is much happier with > glucosamine.........Lorna I tried one of the glucosamine/chondritin products (from Trader Joe's - their supplements are good, and not as expensive as name brands). I didn't find that it made much difference, but then my symptoms aren't severe - just a general stiffness when I've been sitting in one position for too long.
When I mentioned that Melisande sometimes stretches out her hind leg as though she had cramp (the one she broke and had in a cast so long a few years ago), my vet suggested giving HER the same preparation (but lesser dosage, of course).
Norm - 09 Nov 2004 21:23 GMT > Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with > this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate? Terrific stuff, 4.5 years now. Before I was having trouble with even 25mi rides. As suggested you may want to check with your doctor and also conside glucousamine chronditin - the sulfate purported raises chloresterol. HTH, Norm
-- "The web has got me caught. I'd rather have the blues than what I've got." <via Nat King Cole
Norm - 10 Nov 2004 11:31 GMT > Terrific stuff, 4.5 years now. Before I was having trouble with even > 25mi rides. As suggested you may want to check with your doctor and > also conside glucousamine chronditin - the sulfate purported raises > chloresterol. HTH, Norm Neglected to add: ittakes about a month for impreovement to take hold and doses should be daily and about a gram. Norm
-- "The web has got me caught. I'd rather have the blues than what I've got." <via Nat King Cole
Ted Davis - 09 Nov 2004 21:49 GMT >Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with >this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >TIA for any info. I was able to drop Naproxen in favor of one asprin and two acetaminophen pills a day. Most days I really don't need those. There was no interactiont with Naproxen, but after a few weeks, I didn't hurt any more so I dropped it.
T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu) SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D." somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected.
Howard Berkowitz - 25 Nov 2004 16:27 GMT > >Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with > >this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > There was no interactiont with Naproxen, but after a few weeks, I > didn't hurt any more so I dropped it. What were your goals with the substitution? A single aspirin (actually a 81 mg rather than standard adult 325 mg) will have no particular effects either on pain or inflammation, but generally has cardiac and other system protective benefits. It's probably reasonable for anyone over 35, or people with risk factors and are under 35, to take daily aspirin unless there are specific contraindications. Reasons not to take it include it triggering asthmatic reactions, the presence of active bleeding or clotting disorders, or triggering significant stomach upset. I've not seen reports of these beneficial effects in cats. Aspirin is also generally contraindicated in children under 14, without specific medical supervision. NSAIDs such as naproxen and ibuprofen can interfere with its cardioprotective effects when the drugs are taken together.
Acetaminophen is purely a pain and fever reducing drug and has no anti-inflammatory properties. It's probably superior to NSAIDs such as naproxen for headache, but that's very individual.
Naproxen does have both pain and anti=inflammatory properties. Interestingly, the over-the-counter dose and usual prescription dose of naproxen are the same (when last I looked, it's still a prescription drug in Canada; can't speak for other countries), where the over the counter dose of ibuprofen, in the same chemical family, is adequate for pain control but not inflammation reduction.
Acetaminophen and ibuprofen have comparable duration of action, while naproxen is considerably longer-acting. The anti-inflammatory activity of naproxen and ibuprofen is roughly comparable, both being in the propionic acid family, although there are some studies that give naproxe a slight superiority.
I don't have a strong opinion on glucosamine and chondroitin. I suppose I tend to look a little more critically at "alternative" medications for which we don't have a good explanation of the mode of action at a molecular level. That isn't to say we fully understand all the molecular pharmacology of "mainstream" drugs, or their behavior in special cases, but the general level of molecular medicine has so advanced that I tend to expect molecular explanations, as well as reasonable controlled trials.
Seanette Blaylock - 25 Nov 2004 17:37 GMT Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment:
>Acetaminophen is purely a pain and fever reducing drug and has no >anti-inflammatory properties. It's probably superior to NSAIDs such as >naproxen for headache, but that's very individual. Do you know if it's an unusual side effect for acetaminophen to be sedating? If I take the stuff, it puts me to sleep.
>Naproxen does have both pain and anti=inflammatory properties. >Interestingly, the over-the-counter dose and usual prescription dose of >naproxen are the same (when last I looked, it's still a prescription >drug in Canada; can't speak for other countries), where the over the >counter dose of ibuprofen, in the same chemical family, is adequate for >pain control but not inflammation reduction. Naproxen is OTC in the US [Aleve is the brand name that comes immediately to mind].
>I don't have a strong opinion on glucosamine and chondroitin. I suppose >I tend to look a little more critically at "alternative" medications for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >but the general level of molecular medicine has so advanced that I tend >to expect molecular explanations, as well as reasonable controlled trials. My DH tried glucosamine chondroitin and found very little effect on his arthritis. He also thought he'd seen something somewhere about it affecting blood sugar control in diabetics, so decided he'd better drop it.
 Signature "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.
:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL Howard Berkowitz - 25 Nov 2004 19:06 GMT > Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things > to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Do you know if it's an unusual side effect for acetaminophen to be > sedating? If I take the stuff, it puts me to sleep. That would be unusual, but I never rule out any side effect in an individual. Acetaminophen, as opposed to aspirin and salicylates, the general group of NSAIDs, and newer drugs such as the COX-2 inhibitors, works only in the central nervous system. All the others work in muscle, skin and nerve, and, to varying extents, in internal organs. The NSAIDs, for example, are especially effective in suppressing prostaglandin generation in the uterus, and can be used to prevent, not just treat, menstrual cramps.
The general NSAIDs, as opposed to the COX-2 inhibitors, are less selective, and also suppress naturally produced chemicals that cause the creation of protective mucus in the stomach -- hence their tendency to cause inflammation.
> >Naproxen does have both pain and anti=inflammatory properties. > >Interestingly, the over-the-counter dose and usual prescription dose of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Naproxen is OTC in the US [Aleve is the brand name that comes > immediately to mind]. Correct. There are other brands and, I belive, generics. Mind you, I've always felt that the generic name "NAProxen" was wasted on anything not a sleeping pill. :-)
> >I don't have a strong opinion on glucosamine and chondroitin. I suppose > >I tend to look a little more critically at "alternative" medications for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > affecting blood sugar control in diabetics, so decided he'd better > drop it. Sherry - 25 Nov 2004 18:09 GMT >I've not seen reports of these beneficial effects in cats. Cherokee was prescribed 1/4 baby aspirin every other day for the last five years of his life after having a stroke. He never had another stroke, and never exhibited any adverse reactions to the low dose aspirin. Whether that prevented another stroke, or it's just coincidence I guess we'll never know.
Sherry
Howard Berkowitz - 25 Nov 2004 19:14 GMT > >I've not seen reports of these beneficial effects in cats. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > prevented > another stroke, or it's just coincidence I guess we'll never know. Aspirin after a stroke, possibly with other antiplatelet drugs, is the standard of care in humans. I simply lack data on its effectiveness in cats, but if 20 mg/day is nontoxic to cats, it makes perfectly good sense.
There's more and more work on stroke prevention in humans, although I don't know when and if some of the techniques will be practical for cats. After roughly age 60, or in the presence of risk factors, it makes good medical sense to do periodic ultrasound of the carotid arteries. When they reach a certain level of partial blockage, the statistical evidence is fairly solid that intervention prevents many strokes.
The standard procedure, carotid endarterectomy, is a surprisingly simple replacement of the blocked part with a graft -- it's not an office procedure, but perhaps an overnight stay. Less invasive methods of inserting a stent (think "tent") inside the blood vessel, inserted from inside under X-ray vision, is more experimental, but may eventually be as good as endarterectomy. I have no idea if this is done in cats.
Just a general note, more for humans -- some organizations are, I think wisely, suggesting substituting the term "brain attack" for "stroke". Too many people that realize there are urgent interventions for heart attack don't realize that there are also interventions that can limit or reverse damage in early stroke, but they must be done quickly after the start of the episode -- low number of hours.
Sherry - 26 Nov 2004 02:27 GMT >The standard procedure, carotid endarterectomy, is a surprisingly simple >replacement of the blocked part with a graft -- it's not an office >procedure, but perhaps an overnight stay. Carotid artery surgery is a walk in the park. It's the easiest one I've ever had done. Except for looking a little Frankenstein-ish afterwards. Turtlenecks are my best friend now.
Sherry
Howard Berkowitz - 26 Nov 2004 03:00 GMT > >The standard procedure, carotid endarterectomy, is a surprisingly simple > >replacement of the blocked part with a graft -- it's not an office [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sherry You want Frankenstein?
<Jack Nicholson>
You can't handle Frankenstein!
</Jack Nicholson>
A dearly missed late manager of mine was one of those people who decided to become extremely health conscious in his fifties. Before long, he was a nationally rated, masters division rollerblader.
One day, when rollerblading with his son, Karl just sort of thought..."gee, that looks like a patch of oil on the path..." and awakened in the ambulance. No real damage, but he took several nasty facial lacerations.
He was quite a good-looking man, and it was very reasonable that the reconstruction involved a qualified plastic surgeon. The technique involved, however, required that the facial sutures have a plastic anchor at the end. I'd swear they looked exactly like the corks in the temples of the Frankenstein monster. The technique was very successful -- some visibly messy cuts healed without any scarring.
Marina - 26 Nov 2004 10:56 GMT >>>The standard procedure, carotid endarterectomy, is a surprisingly simple >>>replacement of the blocked part with a graft -- it's not an office [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > temples of the Frankenstein monster. The technique was very successful > -- some visibly messy cuts healed without any scarring. Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck.
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Sherry - 26 Nov 2004 15:25 GMT >Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my >thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck. Wasn't it creepy the first time you looked in a mirror? Egad. I ended up allergic to the monofilament stitches and all my incisions got horribly messed up. It's a good thing I never was vain. The only thing that really bugs me is that now my belly button is on my side. Remember the cartoon "Badly Animated Man?" LOL That's what it reminds me of. The only incision that healed well was the one on my neck, though. Sherry
Kreisleriana - 26 Nov 2004 16:26 GMT >>Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my >>thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the one on my neck, though. >Sherry I've had the thyroid surgery. You can hardly see the scar at all. My surgeon was so proud of it, I wanted to bust him one. :P
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Marina - 26 Nov 2004 16:59 GMT > I've had the thyroid surgery. You can hardly see the scar at all. My > surgeon was so proud of it, I wanted to bust him one. :P Was your whole thyroid gland removed? They had to remove all of mine because it had a malignant tumour in it. Luckily, they got it all and I was pronounced 'clean' three years later. :o)
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Howard Berkowitz - 26 Nov 2004 17:13 GMT > >>Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my > >>thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I've had the thyroid surgery. You can hardly see the scar at all. My > surgeon was so proud of it, I wanted to bust him one. :P I began serious reading of medical texts at a quite early age. When I was scheduled for a tonsillectomy at age 13, I read up on the procedure, and learned the most common reason for postoperative bleeding was coughing.
So, after I woke up, I concentrated on not coughing -- nothing that was mentioned by the staff. The desire to cough is often overwhelming -- sometimes soft and liquid foods can avert it, but one's throat may be too sore to use them.
In any event, the procedure was done in a teaching hospital, and the attending surgeon was exceptionally pleased with the lack of complicaitons, frequently awakening me to show me off to students. Eventually, he pried my mouth open one time too many, and I clamped down on his fingers.
Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have the satisfaction of having a 13=year old growl hoarsely, "I'm tired of your patronizing and boasting. The reason I'm not hemorrhaging is that I took the trouble to learn about avoiding problems -- instructions you didn't give me. Now, unless you have something clinically relevant to do, go put ice on your fingers and let me go back to sleep."
Certain speech patterns can develop earlier than most people believe.
Cheryl Perkins - 26 Nov 2004 17:23 GMT <snip>
> Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have > the satisfaction of having a 13=year old growl hoarsely, "I'm tired of > your patronizing and boasting. The reason I'm not hemorrhaging is that I > took the trouble to learn about avoiding problems -- instructions you > didn't give me. Now, unless you have something clinically relevant to > do, go put ice on your fingers and let me go back to sleep."
> Certain speech patterns can develop earlier than most people believe. I'm impressed. I bit a dentist - actually, an orthodontist - but I didn't have the foresight to read up on what he was doing or the presence of mind to tell him off.
 Signature Cheryl
Howard Berkowitz - 26 Nov 2004 18:47 GMT > <snip> > > Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > have the foresight to read up on what he was doing or the presence of > mind to tell him off. When hospitalized, I tend to think of myself as an inpatient.
In fairness, I have spent a good deal of my professional career studying the oral and written communications patterns that physicians use in communicating with one another. There are limited parallels, to putting things in context, to establishing dominance in medical interactions.
I'm not trying to be top cat, but I will insist on being a cat that is not trivialized. In practice, I often intersperse certain speech or logic patterns -- not necessarily vocabulary -- into the interaction when a history is being taken, which can cause distinctive doubletakes, ranging from "WHAT did you say you did for a living" to simply noting the clinician, not even being particularly aware of doing so, start addressing me as Doctor.
This can become high performance art. I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed dealing with frustration at the time of my first angioplasty. Really, I was tolerant of the sequence of medical students and interns coming, one after the other, to practice history taking.
When an especially pompous cardiology fellow, with a gaggle of junior in trail, came in to inquire "And how are we today? And what brings us to the hospital?", I responded:
"Without performing a history and physical, and any indicated testing, I cannot give an opinion on how you are. It would be a reasonable presumption that you were brought to the hospital by the terms of your contract.
"As far as myself (shifting tones), this is a (as I was at the time) 39-year old well developed, well nourished computer science status post one month of onset of unstable angina of one-block effort, unresponsive to medical management. Initial presentation was significant for posterior pain with radiation into the left arm and sternum, exacerbated by exercise and relieved with organic nitrates. ECG was nonspecific other than QT prolongation, with an isoelectric ST segment. Cardiac enzymes were within normal limits. ICU monitoring revealed occasional bigeminy but no significant ST abnormalities..."
And on and on, system by system, test by test, rejected differential diagnosis after rejected differential diagnosis, until coming to the key tests that were positive. He sputtered "Mr. Berkowitz, you certainly seem to know a lot about your disease."
Ignoring that, I switched into my most pompous professor mode, and commented, "I'm sure you noted the pattern of idiopathic hypokalemia. Would you enlighten us, Doctor (this is the standard way a senior puts a junior on the spot) about your differential diagnosis and treatment plan for this possibly significant metabolic abnormality?"
Seanette Blaylock - 26 Nov 2004 20:25 GMT Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment:
>I'm not trying to be top cat, but I will insist on being a cat that is >not trivialized. In practice, I often intersperse certain speech or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the clinician, not even being particularly aware of doing so, start >addressing me as Doctor. I'm sorry, but I can't remember what it is you said you *do* do. Must be amusing to hear that switch to Doctor. :-)
>This can become high performance art. I must say that I thoroughly >enjoyed dealing with frustration at the time of my first angioplasty. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >presumption that you were brought to the hospital by the terms of your >contract. Good one! :-) [I hate that "we" garbage. Sounds like some of my more annoying grade school teachers.]
 Signature "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.
:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL Howard Berkowitz - 27 Nov 2004 00:18 GMT > Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things > to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'm sorry, but I can't remember what it is you said you *do* do. Must > be amusing to hear that switch to Doctor. :-) Among other things, I develop medical software for clinical use, including expert systems for prescribing.
> >This can become high performance art. I must say that I thoroughly > >enjoyed dealing with frustration at the time of my first angioplasty. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Good one! :-) [I hate that "we" garbage. Sounds like some of my more > annoying grade school teachers.] Christine Burel - 26 Nov 2004 22:00 GMT Loved this story, too -- so did DH! I have to say from past times with doctors who treated me like I had half a brain, I wanted to cheer when I read these anecdotes! Christine
> > <snip> > > > Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > junior on the spot) about your differential diagnosis and treatment plan > for this possibly significant metabolic abnormality?" Howard Berkowitz - 27 Nov 2004 00:24 GMT > Loved this story, too -- so did DH! I have to say from past times with > doctors who treated me like I had half a brain, I wanted to cheer when I > read these anecdotes! > Christine Oh, there are many, including times I was the butt of the joke. Apropos of brain halves, however, I was accompanying my ex-wife to the neurosurgeon who would do her brain biopsy. He asked for questions, and I asked the seemingly reasonable question "from what structure (of the brain) will you take the sample?"
Neurologist: "Structure? *cackle* DA BRAIN!"
Me (to wife): "Oh good. I was worried we had come to podiatry."
She contributed her bit A couple of days after the operation, the neurosurgery fellows came around to check progress. A mini-mental status exam is a proper part of such an exam, checking if the patient knows who and where they are, and working from there.
Neurosurgery fellow: "Do you remember who I am?"
Wife: "Yes. You're the jerk who wouldn't believe I was training for competition bodybuilding before these problems. HOWARD! Get the scrapbook out of the drawer."
She pointed to several muscle poses, and inquired if he knew which muscles were being flexed.
Neurosurgery fellow: "Ummmm...I don't think we need to continue the mental status exam"
Wife, in sugary tones: "Be careful in your studies. You are picking up entirely too much of your @$E! professor's conversational and social skills."
> > > <snip> > > > > Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > When hospitalized, I tend to think of myself as an inpatient. That should have been "impatient'.
Sherry - 29 Nov 2004 18:00 GMT >Loved this story, too -- so did DH! I have to say from past times with >doctors who treated me like I had half a brain, I wanted to cheer when I >read these anecdotes! >Christine Don't ever let a doctor treat you like you have half a brain. They're mostly pompous a.sholes, with a few exceptions. I fired one cardiologst for that very reason, fired another one because he was too "important" to be accessible to his patients. Hell if I'm going to spend over $100,000 on medical care, just have his RN making rounds for him and intercepting his calls. I've got a daughter who's a critical cardiac care RN I can talk to for free.
Sherry Sherry
Christine Burel - 26 Nov 2004 18:52 GMT > > >>Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my > > >>thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Certain speech patterns can develop earlier than most people believe. This was a great story, Howard! Pardon me if you've already answered this but did you become a physician as an adult (and if so, what kind?) or are just proactively extremely well-informed? Curious because I do an awful lot of medical reading myself 'cause of some issues my kids have. Regards, Christine
Howard Berkowitz - 27 Nov 2004 00:13 GMT > This was a great story, Howard! Pardon me if you've already answered > this [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Regards, > Christine It's more accurate to say "I'm not a physician, but I simulate them on computers." My major professional areas, which overlap to a degree, are high-performance networking and medical informatics. I started in biochemistry and moved into computer science, but I routinely read current journals, attend continuing medical education, and interact with physicians on a professional level.
Going back to 1970 or so, I developed various expert systems to assist physicians or even substitute in some parts of the process. My interests tend to be now both in expert prescribing systems and emergency/disaster interest, with a strong interest in clinical pharmacology.
To build an expert system that will "sound right" to a physician, you have to understand how physicians communicate with one another. An excellent introduction is in Michael Crichton's paperback _Five Patients_, which is obsolescent in some areas (telemedicine and intensive care), but has an excellent discussion of physician communication. A good backup for this is some study of cultural anthropology and understanding the difference between high-context and low-context human communications.
Inter-physician communications are extremely high-context. When discussing history, physical, or diagnostic workup, everyone involved has a generally common mental map. One clinician may ask a question, for example, about the result of a part of an examination. The other clinician may respond with an apparently unrelated laboratory result.
The two, however, are quite related in the underlying context. The first physician was asking about a physical exam finding that might suggest one disease, and the second clinician realizes what the first one has in mind. Rather than answering directly, he or she might cite a laboratory value that rules out the first hypothesis. Crichton gives an example of two physicians ruling out diabetic complications without ever mentioning diabetes.
Seanette Blaylock - 26 Nov 2004 20:23 GMT Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment:
>In any event, the procedure was done in a teaching hospital, and the >attending surgeon was exceptionally pleased with the lack of >complicaitons, frequently awakening me to show me off to students. >Eventually, he pried my mouth open one time too many, and I clamped down >on his fingers.
:-) I once knew a woman who swore she had kicked her gynecologist in the face for not exercising sufficient care during an exam. :-)
>Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have >the satisfaction of having a 13=year old growl hoarsely, "I'm tired of >your patronizing and boasting. The reason I'm not hemorrhaging is that I >took the trouble to learn about avoiding problems -- instructions you >didn't give me. Now, unless you have something clinically relevant to >do, go put ice on your fingers and let me go back to sleep." You sound like quite a kid. I think he had it coming. :-)
 Signature "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.
:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL Howard Berkowitz - 27 Nov 2004 00:17 GMT > Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> had some very interesting things > to say about Re: OT: Glucosamine as an arthritis treatment: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I once knew a woman who swore she had kicked her gynecologist in the > face for not exercising sufficient care during an exam. :-) BEVERAGE WARNING....
Ex-wife #2 developed abdominal pain, and we rushed off to the ER. Our personal internist happened to be there, and suggested he also do a pelvic.
Unfortunately, Michael had sprained his wrist a couple of weeks ago, playing tennis. It was his exploring hand. Unfortunately, during the pelvic, there was a loud CRAAACK from his wrist, followed by a scream from my wife. Nothing broken, but he had a tendon whip back and forth and cause an involuntary jerk of his whole hand.
It happened that the internist, my wife, and myself happened to use the same hand surgeon. My wife said that before Michael would be allowed to touch her there again, he would have to have a note clearing him from Bruce, the hand surgeon.
When next we were at the hand surgeon's office, she told him the story. We had forgotten that before he retrained in hand surgery, he was a board-certified OB/GYN. He laughed so hard that he had tears running down his face, and then called the internist to lecture him (and, given the tone of his voice and continuing hysterics, the rest of the office0.
> >Most cats, I'm sure, would sympathize. Unfortunately, they didn't have > >the satisfaction of having a 13=year old growl hoarsely, "I'm tired of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You sound like quite a kid. I think he had it coming. :-) Marina - 26 Nov 2004 16:38 GMT >>Euch! And I thought I looked like Frankenstein's monster after my >>thyroid gland was removed and I had stitches halfway around my neck. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the one on my neck, though. > Sherry LOL! The worst thing for me, I think, was that they removed the stitches on the fourth day (!!!) after the surgery and put these little flimsy pieces of tape instead. I was sure my head would fall off! :oD
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Victor Martinez - 10 Nov 2004 03:34 GMT > Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with > this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate? My mom heard about it from her sister, who asked her to bring some with her last time she came to visit (they stopped selling it in Mexico due to Mad Cow fears). So my mom brought back an extra bottle for herself to try it. She said it helped her with her joints and now she takes it religiously.
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Yowie - 11 Nov 2004 23:26 GMT > > Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with > > this product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > try it. She said it helped her with her joints and now she takes it > religiously. Omega 3 Fatty acids are also supposed to be good for some forms of arthritis. Cod liver oil being a wonderful source (you can get it in capsule form now, for those who are shuddering at the thought)
Yowie
CatNipped - 10 Nov 2004 15:42 GMT I've heard differing things about Glucosamine. First, here's some info on it from the web:
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What It Is: Glucosamine, chondroitin sulfate, and MSM (methylsulfonylmethane) occur naturally in the body. The glucosamine used in supplements is typically derived from the shells of crabs although a corn source is also available. Glucosamine is available in a variety of chemical forms, such as glucosamine hydrochloride and glucosamine sulfate. These vary in terms of the amount of actual glucosamine available for use in the body from an equal weight of each form . Chondroitin sulfate is generally derived from cow cartilage, but porcine (pig) and even chicken cartilage has been used and algae are another potential source. MSM is synthetically produced.
What It Does: Glucosamine and Chondroitin: Glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate supplements are used to slow the progression of osteoarthritis - the deterioration of cartilage between joint bones - and to reduce the associated pain. Glucosamine is thought to promote the formation and repair of cartilage. Chondroitin is believed to promote water retention and elasticity in cartilage and inhibit enzymes that break down cartilage. In veterinary medicine, glucosamine and chondroitin, often in combination, are commonly used in the treatment of degenerative joint disease - typically in older dogs and cats as well as in horses.
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I've heard some doctors say that, when ingesting it, it is treated like other "by-products" of food (shells, bones, etc.) and just discarded by the body rather than metabolized, and that it is no more than a placebo. Other people swear by it (and *my* doctor recommended it - although he did say to get it from a manufacturer outside of the US since everything made in the US is so watered down because of FDA regulations as to be useless). *But* placebos often work wonders for people who believe in their benefits.
I took it every day for over a year and didn't see any differences - but then again I have fibromyalgia as well as osteoarthritis, so the pain could have been because of that and not alleviated by the Glucosamine.
Hugs,
CatNipped
> Do any of you extremely knowledgeable souls have any experience with this > product, usually sold as Glucosamine Sulphate? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Gordon & the TT Exocat - 10 Nov 2004 18:58 GMT Thanks, everyone, for your highly valuable (& valued) input.
I'll check out any possible conflict with the Doc. & then give it a try, perhaps even replacing prescription meds. for a month or so (shame they're the ones that come free) to get a true comparison.
PS to CatNipped: I have a question for you off-list: could you advise your unmunged e-mail addy please? (replace my x with an m to unmunge mine). TIA
Purrs to all
Gordon & the TT
 Signature Feline family viewable at: http://community.webshots.com/user/exocat
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