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Elimination mystery

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Takayuki - 22 Jul 2007 11:30 GMT
Dot and Buster are given free run most of the time now, and Buster's
established the living room as his HQ, with most of the rest of the
house under his control as well.  Dot's claimed a chair in the kitchen
as her HQ, and loose control of the rest of the kitchen as her domain.

Poor Dot.  She never leaves the kitchen on her own now, even when
Buster is shut in his own room.  I'll sometimes bring her to bed with
me, but she growls as she's carried through the living room, even if
Buster isn't there.

Buster's been a good boy with Dot.  He usually gives her as wide a
berth as he can when she's at her kitchen chair HQ.  He's clearly not
afraid of her though, but just doesn't want to be bothered with a
confrontation, because he always has pressing kitten business. :)  He
has no qualms about walking up to her or past her when he's
investigating something important.  When this happens, Dot will growl
at him and usually slink away.  She loses some of her fear of him when
I'm nearby though.  Sometimes she'll even go up to him herself to
chatter and complain in his face.  Sometimes, Buster's ears go back,
he shuts his eyes, and he leans a little backwards when Dot does this.
It looks like he's bracing himself for a buffeting from Dot, but she
doesn't touch him, and Buster won't retaliate.

A couple of days ago, I found a pile of poop in the far corner of the
kitchen near where Dot's HQ is.  I think it was probably Dot's,
although Buster occasionally visits that corner too, since that's
where the sliding back door is, and it's the best place to sniff the
outside and watch birds.

So I thought that maybe Dot felt vulnerable at the current litterbox
location, so I moved it within three feet of that corner.  I didn't
move it closer than that, since then it would block that door, the
kitties would lose their lookout spot, and it would be draftly when
the glass door was open.

But today, I smelled some pee in that location, and found that someone
had peed in the same corner.  So I cleaned that up and put the
litterbox directly over the corner this time.

I assume the messes were Dot's, but it's also possible that it's
Buster, I suppose.  It's a bit out of the way for him, but he did like
that spot too (as a hangout spot).  I wonder if anyone has any ideas
about what's going on?  Stress?  Marking?  UTI can probably be ruled
out, as there was both #1 and #2.

Buster has his own litterbox at the opposite end of the house where
"his" isolation room is.  Buster uses both litterboxes freely.  He
doesn't even care if Dot is right next to him while he's using her
box.  Dot is shyer.  In the past, she seemed to feel most comfortable
using her litterbox if I was around.  When I scoop her box, she would
watch, then step in and use the box.  She's a social litterbox user,
and a social eater too.

I'm a bit puzzled about this elimination development.  I wish I knew
who it was!  If it's Dot, I'd assume it's stress.  If it's Buster, I'd
assume it's some kind of territoriality.  I suppose it's also possible
that they've each done it.  Since the corner is near the "outside",
it's also possible it's a response to one of the neighborhood cats in
the area.  If it continues, I'll lengthen their separations again and
see if that eases it.

And I hope that someday Dot will not be so afraid of Buster.  He's a
pretty well behaved young cat.
Takayuki - 22 Jul 2007 13:43 GMT
>Since the corner is near the "outside",
>it's also possible it's a response to one of the neighborhood cats in
>the area.

I just saw an encounter at the litterbox / door.  There was a small
tuxedo that I've seen a couple of times before.  Betty hated him/her
because of its habit of just staring into the house.

Buster had such a flufftail!  Dot was backing him up and hissing at
the intruder.  The tuxedo ran away when I broke the silence by
exclaiming, "How cute!"

I wonder if the previous deposits were related to their feelings
towards their little "intruder"?  Is it fear, stress, territoriality,
or intruder?  Is it Dot or Buster?  I kind of hope it's not Dot - I
don't want to think she's that afraid.  From the scent and physical
characteristics, looking back on it, it seems like it was more like
Buster's...  But I can't be completely sure.
MaryL - 22 Jul 2007 14:17 GMT
>>Since the corner is near the "outside",
>>it's also possible it's a response to one of the neighborhood cats in
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> characteristics, looking back on it, it seems like it was more like
> Buster's...  But I can't be completely sure.

Does this mean that the litterbox is in an area where Dot and Buster could
see another (outdoor) cat?  If so, I suggest that you place another box in a
much more *private* area.  Many cats will react in a way that we consider
"inappropriate" -- urination outside the litter box, misdirected aggression,
etc. -- when they see another cat.  I think it is particularly important to
place litterboxes and food/water bowls in an area where our cats can feel
complete privacy.

MaryL
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 22 Jul 2007 21:10 GMT
> Does this mean that the litterbox is in an area where Dot and Buster could
> see another (outdoor) cat?  If so, I suggest that you place another box in a
> much more *private* area.  

He only put the litterbox there in the first place because he found a
poop in that corner. He thought, because it was in the kitchen, that
maybe Dot was feeling too afraid to use a litterbox in an area that Buster
might appear, so he put one near where the poop was, thinking she'd feel
safer using that one. I don't think Tak knew there was another cat on
the other side of the door.

However, from the sound of things, that elimination was probably due to
the tux outdoors, rather than to the tension between Buster and Dot. It
was great to hear about the two of them ganging up on the intruder -
common enemy! Maybe that would bring them together! Probably not, but
at least they didn't take it out on each other.

Joyce
Takayuki - 22 Jul 2007 23:48 GMT
> > Does this mean that the litterbox is in an area where Dot and Buster could
> > see another (outdoor) cat?  If so, I suggest that you place another box in a
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>common enemy! Maybe that would bring them together! Probably not, but
>at least they didn't take it out on each other.

Yes, it's an odd location, but that corner somehow got nominated, then
seconded.  I don't know if Dot was really on Buster's side.  Maybe Dot
was actually hissing at the back of Buster's head. :)
Tanada - 23 Jul 2007 00:02 GMT
> Yes, it's an odd location, but that corner somehow got
> nominated, then
> seconded.  I don't know if Dot was really on Buster's side.
> Maybe Dot
> was actually hissing at the back of Buster's head. :)

I dunno Tak.  Mine prefer to make their displeasure known to the
recipient's face.  I have had them gang together to send group
hisspits to potential intruders.  I feel kinda sorry for the
peeping cat though.  It seems like it needs a life, or maybe it
wants better hoomins or something.

Pam S.
Takayuki - 22 Jul 2007 23:43 GMT
>Does this mean that the litterbox is in an area where Dot and Buster could
>see another (outdoor) cat?  If so, I suggest that you place another box in a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>place litterboxes and food/water bowls in an area where our cats can feel
>complete privacy.

Yes, it doesn't seem like a good location to this hoomin either, but I
figured someone had voted with their feces. :)  And it's definitely
being used at that location, judging from today's scooping.  I'll try
moving it back to a more reasonable location.  Maybe buy another
litterbox just for that corner at that time, to see if there's really
some weird preference for that area.
MaryL - 23 Jul 2007 01:24 GMT
>>Does this mean that the litterbox is in an area where Dot and Buster could
>>see another (outdoor) cat?  If so, I suggest that you place another box in
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> litterbox just for that corner at that time, to see if there's really
> some weird preference for that area.

Yes, another box is a good idea.  I suggest that you keep the current
litterbox in that location and also get another box to place elsewhere.
There's a general rule of thumb to have one litterbox for each cat plus one
additional box (although I must admit that I only have two boxes for my two
cats).  Many cats show a definite preference to use one box for feces and a
different box for urine.  I even notice that with both of mine, although
they will occasionally use either box for either "purpose."

When I first adopted Duffy, I placed one of the litterboxes in a corner of a
particular room.  After the two cats had blended and he had the complete run
of the house, I moved the box to a different location.  Well, Duffy would
have none of that!  He started to urinate in the corner where the box *used*
to be.  After I moved the box back to that location, he nicely started to
use it again and has not had any further "accidents."  He knows where the
other box is, too, because he tends to use one box for urine and the other
for feces (just as I described).  He simply decided that the one corner was
*the* only place for one of the boxes -- and I am happy to comply for my
sweetie.

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly:      >'o'<
Duffy:  http://tinyurl.com/cslwf
Holly:  http://tinyurl.com/9t68o
Duffy and Holly together:  http://tinyurl.com/8b47e
leopardusweidii@yahoo.co.uk - 23 Jul 2007 10:08 GMT
> Yes, it doesn't seem like a good location to this hoomin either, but I
> figured someone had voted with their feces. :)  And it's definitely
> being used at that location, judging from today's scooping.  I'll try
> moving it back to a more reasonable location.  Maybe buy another
> litterbox just for that corner at that time, to see if there's really
> some weird preference for that area.

I had a similar problem with Cleo - she was being ambused by Lily in
the covered box and I didn't realise, so she started using a spot
outside the box. I just placed an extra (open & uncovered) litter tray
in the spot she had started using and the problem was solved. Because
she could see all round when she was going to the bathroom, she felt
much more secure.

Helen M
Sherry - 22 Jul 2007 14:21 GMT
> Dot and Buster are given free run most of the time now, and Buster's
> established the living room as his HQ, with most of the rest of the
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> And I hope that someday Dot will not be so afraid of Buster.  He's a
> pretty well behaved young cat.

You *do* have a mystery. Welcome to the world of multi-cat households.
Sometimes
I feel like a third-rate detective trying to figure out who is doing
what, and why.
I'm afraid all I could offer would be guesses. One thing about your
post that makes me think
it surely is Dot, is that it's a place where Buster likes to hang out.
Cats just
won't soil their own den. If he likes to sleep there, it probably
wasn't him.
Good luck, Tak.

Sherry

Sherry
Takayuki - 22 Jul 2007 23:40 GMT
>You *do* have a mystery. Welcome to the world of multi-cat households.
>Sometimes
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>wasn't him.
>Good luck, Tak.

It was so much simpler with one kitty. :)  You may be right, it may be
Dot.  But then, it could still be Buster.  Dot and Buster both like to
use it as a lookout spot, but Dot's not there as much, because she'll
give up her spot to Buster.
Victor Martinez - 22 Jul 2007 15:10 GMT
> And I hope that someday Dot will not be so afraid of Buster.  He's a
> pretty well behaved young cat.

I think they're doing well and who knows, with time they may become best
friends. Maya and Luna used to chase Xoxo all the time, to the point
that Xoxo lived under the bed and only came out to eat and use the
litterbox. :(
Now Xoxo will stand his ground to Luna and he cuddles with Maya to sleep. :)

Signature

Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
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Takayuki - 22 Jul 2007 23:45 GMT
>> And I hope that someday Dot will not be so afraid of Buster.  He's a
>> pretty well behaved young cat.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>litterbox. :(
>Now Xoxo will stand his ground to Luna and he cuddles with Maya to sleep. :)

I hope they'll be like that.  I think it'll take some time.  Buster's
not grown up, and he can be a bit of a pest. :)  If I'm not available
for pestering, and he's awake and bored, he'll sometimes go to Dot and
"invite" her to play by going up to her and staring at her or rolling
around.  She hates that.
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 23 Jul 2007 00:57 GMT
> Buster's
> not grown up, and he can be a bit of a pest. :)  If I'm not available
> for pestering, and he's awake and bored, he'll sometimes go to Dot and
> "invite" her to play by going up to her and staring at her or rolling
> around.  She hates that.

You know, this might be the key to Smudge & Licky's problems. He still
has youth and kitten energy. (The bad news is, he's 4 years old. I sure
hope Buster doesn't need to act this way for the next 4+ years!) But
that is exactly what he does when he's bored - goes up to Smudge and
stares at her. She really, really hates it.

If you figure out how to get them to stop acting like that, please let
me know what worked! And I'll do the same...

Joyce - getting furiously headbutted by Roxy, who clearly wanted to be
mentioned in this post, too.
Takayuki - 23 Jul 2007 03:20 GMT
> > Buster's
> > not grown up, and he can be a bit of a pest. :)  If I'm not available
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Joyce - getting furiously headbutted by Roxy, who clearly wanted to be
>mentioned in this post, too.

Ooh, we should arrange a swap then so that one of us has a Dot/Smudge
combination, who would probably leave each other alone, and the other
has Roxy/Licorice/Buster, who would run around together wrecking
everything. ;)
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 23 Jul 2007 07:55 GMT
> Ooh, we should arrange a swap then so that one of us has a Dot/Smudge
> combination, who would probably leave each other alone, and the other
> has Roxy/Licorice/Buster, who would run around together wrecking
> everything. ;)

Gee, who could you have in mind for keeping the destructo-cats?

Actually, Roxy, Licky and Buster might make a fun combination. I think
you're right that Smudge and Dot would ignore each other.

Joyce
GaDragonfly - 23 Jul 2007 06:08 GMT
> I hope they'll be like that.  I think it'll take some time.  Buster's
> not grown up, and he can be a bit of a pest. :)  If I'm not available
> for pestering, and he's awake and bored, he'll sometimes go to Dot and
> "invite" her to play by going up to her and staring at her or rolling
> around.  She hates that.

Tak,
I see a lot of this. Sam and Hobbes have "staring contests" and if one
or the other doesn't look away someone will initiate a fight.  These
fights sound horrific but are usually more noise than pain. Then
Barnabus and Lacey will do the same thing. Well, Lacey will do it with
anybody. She starts to play then the larger cats overtake her and she
screams that they're killing her.  When we make the large cat back off
then she'll chase them to the back room.  Then with Barnabus she'll
run up and engage him in a game of chase, have him chase her into the
room where we are and then turn around and hiss and cry like she's
being persecuted.  Of course this gets the expected reaction of the
hoomas fussing at Barnabus and cuddling Lacey

I think the most difficult relationship in our clowder is Sam and
Hobbes.  They really do fight, although they don't draw blood often.
But each time one or the other was injured or sick they became off
limits to the other. Until they healed they were allowed free roam of
the house and could pass the other without concern.  They also sleep
within 6 inches of each other often.  I have yet to figure out that
relationship but figure as long as they aren't seriously injured I'm
not going to worry about it.

Purrs that Dot and Buster work things out to your satisfaction.

Julie, Hobbes, Lacey, Sam and Barnabus
Marina - 30 Jul 2007 07:43 GMT
> Well, Lacey will do it with
> anybody. She starts to play then the larger cats overtake her and she
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> being persecuted.  Of course this gets the expected reaction of the
> hoomas fussing at Barnabus and cuddling Lacey

Lacey is a tease, like Miranda. On the island, she would try to get
Kasper's attention, and then when he chased her, she would scream bloody
murder (she sounds like a mountain lion - it's amazing the amount of
noise such a little cat can make), though he was nowhere near her. If he
stopped chasing her, she would stop and look back. 'Why'd you stop?'
Then she'd try to get his attention again. I've learned to ignore her
screams, though they really sound like she is being severely mauled.

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.

Caroline S. - 23 Jul 2007 14:55 GMT
<snip Dot and Buster developments>
Tak,
I recently saw a suggestion (can't remember where now) of lacing your
cats' food with shavings of different color crayons (they are non-
toxic) to determine which one is going #2 outside the box. I know it
wouldn't help with the pee issue, and I have no idea if a cat would
actually EAT food with crayons in it.  In your case, all you would
need is one cat to do it. Food coloring might work in the alternative
(going by experience with my daughter when the daycare fed them green
dyed food on St. Patrick's day- gross!).

Another suggestion would be to temporarily put up a visual block/
screen so that the outside cat can't be seen. Maybe that would lower
tensions in that area.

At any rate, it does sound like things are moving in the right
direction. Purrs for continued progress!

-Caroline S.
 
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