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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / June 2007catbanter.com
Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat groups and post them on their forum? I was just shocked while I was net searching for something else to find , some of my posts to rpca came up on that site. I had never heard of catbanter before. Does anyone on the group know anything about this site? Tweed > Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat > groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Tweed These are public forums > Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat > groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Tweed It is also like catkb.com there are a lot of these sites out there >> Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other >> cat groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > It is also like catkb.com there are a lot of these sites out there Same thing happened with a lot of posts from rec.food.cooking on some forum whose name I don't recall. Apparently some people have a hard time coming up with anything original on their own so they raid newsgroups for material. It's pathetic but not illegal. Jill > >> Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other > >> cat groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > up with anything original on their own so they raid newsgroups for material. > It's pathetic but not illegal. It's very grey area. Usenet is supposed to work by distributing messages to participating sites - the way each site presents it to its users isn't specified. What CatKB is doing is very like what any old Usenet reader does, except you see their site's ads and navigation stuff around the text - and when a CatKB user posts a reply it appears on Usenet with little to distinguish it from one posted any other way (there's no line in the header to say what the newsreader is, but you'd have to be truly geeky to look for that without prompting). They're not doing anything ethically different to what Google Groups does. I googled the address I post under and found I'd been contributing to a fairly extraordinary range of sites I'd never heard of before. It's no big deal. They're welcome to what I write so long as I get credited. What IS a big deal is sites that take your postings to *mailing lists* and do that, as it makes your *real* email address available to spammers. There was an outfit called mailarchive.org that used to do that; mercifully the scum seem to have been taken off the net. ============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ============== Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975 stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557 > Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat > groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Tweed I have never heard of catbanter.com. Did they give you credit? If not, it may not be illegal but it is unethical. On the other hand, usenet is such a wide-open forum that this probably happens with great frequency. I noticed an ad on one of the cat groups at one time (which in itself is a violation of most newsgroups). It was an ad *selling* information about caring for cats, but it gave a few "samples" to show us the type of advice we could expect. Well, I recognized some of those samples because they were from *my messages.* I googled some of my own messages, and the work being sold was word-for-word from mine. Some of you may also have been so lucky as to be quoted in that way. Technically, that *is* illegal, but it simply would not have been worth the cost to pursue it. Fortunately, I suspect that he found few buyers (or maybe even none -- let's hope, anyway). Incidentally, if I am the source of some of his "expert" advice, I feel sorry for someone who might buy it thinking that they were receiving information from someone far more knowledgeable than me! MaryL >> Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat >> groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > MaryL I doubt that it's illegal unless you have a copyright on it, and to begin with, as public forums I don't believe anything posted here can be considered intellectual property. (Lord knows, a good deal of the posts aren't "intellectual", if that has any bearing, and I stand accused of that myself.) I could be wrong about the public forum implication, but I don't think so. I'm too lazy just now to google for a reference.  SignatureRemember: It is To Laugh <http://tinyurl.com/2a5u8b> >>> Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat >>> groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > I could be wrong about the public forum implication, but I don't think so. > I'm too lazy just now to google for a reference. Actually, it is illegal. Anything that is written (or even photographed) is considered the intellectual property of the author. A copyright simply gives an extra level of protection and makes it easier to prove. However, it is usually far more expensive than it is worth to pursue noncopyrighted infringement (and sometimes even material protected by copyright). MaryL >>>> Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat >>>> groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > MaryL I stand corrected and I've learned something. Thanks. SignatureRemember: It is To Laugh <http://tinyurl.com/2a5u8b> >>>> Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other >>>> cat [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > MaryL The thing with UseNet is *whose* laws are you talking about? The US? What if the plagarist lives in Egypt? That's why they will never "clean up" the internet - gawd knows we can't get agreement on *any* issue from every country on earth, we'll never get an agreement on the thousands of issues the internet brings up. Hugs, CatNipped >>>>> Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other >>>>> cat [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > CatNipped Good point! The answer would probably depend on such a multiplicity of factors (the country of origin/registration of the site involved, where the actual copying occurred, etc.) that we never would come to a decision unless it is something *far* more important than usenet plagiarism. <whew! wiping my brow at the mere thought of it...> MaryL > I doubt that it's illegal unless you have a copyright on it, and to begin > with, as public forums I don't believe anything posted here can be considered > intellectual property. (Lord knows, a good deal of the posts aren't By law, anything "creative" you produce is copyrightable. That includes newsgroup rants. :) SignatureVictor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com >> I doubt that it's illegal unless you have a copyright on it, and to begin >> with, as public forums I don't believe anything posted here can be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > By law, anything "creative" you produce is copyrightable. That includes > newsgroup rants. :) it seems that unless you sepcifically put X-noarchive: yes into your post's headers, you are giving implied consent to the likes of Google, CatKB, catbanter and a whole bunch of other Usenet mirror sites to publish your material on their site, although to give them their dues, they don't claim authorship, they are jsut mirroring what already appears on newsfeeds. Of course, the test case has never been tried. To sue, AFAIK, you'd have to demosntrate a loss of income by their actions. Otherwise, all they are doing is allowing their customers to see and post to Usenet, just like other newsreading clients do. They just do using a web interface, rather than a specific newsreader. If Google Groups isn't illegal, i can't see how another site doing the same thing can be illegal. Yowie >>> I doubt that it's illegal unless you have a copyright on it, and to >>> begin with, as public forums I don't believe anything posted here can be [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Yowie It's not the site that is doing anything illegal, it's the person doing the posting who may be doing something illegal. Of course, there's very little likelihood that anyone is going to do anything about it. However, I *never* post an entire article, for this very reason. I will sometimes quote (using quotation marks) or paraphrase a few lines and then include a link to the original article. I also give credit to the source. MaryL >>>> I doubt that it's illegal unless you have a copyright on it, and to >>>> begin with, as public forums I don't believe anything posted here can [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > MaryL I still remember the chilling feeling when I went into a college class where we had all just turned in some fairly difficult research papers. The professor went into a complete tirade over plagiarism, etc and threatened to fail most of the class. Needless to say my blood ran cold as did everyone else's. This was an advanced corporate accounting class. And to be honest originality isn't exactly a valued concept in the accounting world. You are supposed to get it right, not try something unique and cleaver. So I went to the teacher after class and hesitantly asked how much trouble I was in. He said none at all. Yes, my entire paper was virtually lifted from various sources. But each and every one was properly identified and credited. Thank God for other scientific and literary papers I'd done in the past. Jo > I still remember the chilling feeling when I went into a college class where > we had all just turned in some fairly difficult research papers. The > professor went into a complete tirade over plagiarism, etc and threatened to > fail most of the class. Needless to say my blood ran cold as did everyone > else's. > This was an advanced corporate accounting class. And to be honest > originality isn't exactly a valued concept in the accounting world. You are > supposed to get it right, not try something unique and cleaver. > So I went to the teacher after class and hesitantly asked how much trouble I > was in. He said none at all. Yes, my entire paper was virtually lifted > from various sources. But each and every one was properly identified and > credited. Isn't that what a research paper is, though? You research what is out there, and then present the information into some sort of coherent whole, citing your sources. But then, don't look to me as an authority on this topic - I was a computer science major. We had "final projects" to do - big programs - and not papers. I probably did a few research papers, but only in those subjects I had to take to fulfill the Bachelor's requirements. And those courses were usually in the first or second-year level. Joyce >>>>> I doubt that it's illegal unless you have a copyright on it, and to >>>>> begin with, as public forums I don't believe anything posted here can [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Jo One of the differences between plagiarism and legitimate research is that *every source* must be given credit -- ideas, for example, not merely direct quotations. You did give credit for your sources. MaryL >>>>>> I doubt that it's illegal unless you have a copyright on it, and to >>>>>> begin with, as public forums I don't believe anything posted here can [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > *every source* must be given credit -- ideas, for example, not merely > direct quotations. You did give credit for your sources. The truly annoying thing about such undergraduate papers is that many (not all) lecturers are of the opinion that undergraduates can't think for themselves, so that when I introduced an original (at least, orginal to me) idea, I was failed you for plagiarism, despite the fact I'd never even looked at the material they claimed I plagiarised from. I couldn't for the life of me convince them that all I'd done was read the material I had correctly referenced and reached my own conclusions. After that incident, I carefully made sure to reference every claim I made and every idea I had. Mostly by making up fictional sources. Needless to say, I ended up having rather heated arguments with my lecturers. Often in class, too. Had it not been for one particular lecturer that actually had the decency to recognise undergraduates were not so much stupid as merely undereducated, I would be dismiss the whole of liberal arts as self indulgent mutual wankery. As it is, I still have deep concerns about the ethics advisor to our local health system: she was also one of my lecturers and she seemed to have no moral compass whatsoever. Yowie > One of the differences between plagiarism and legitimate research is that > *every source* must be given credit -- ideas, for example, not merely direct > quotations. You did give credit for your sources. What is that joke? If you steal from one author it's plagiarism. If you steal from many it's research. :) SignatureVictor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com >> One of the differences between plagiarism and legitimate research is that >> *every source* must be given credit -- ideas, for example, not merely >> direct quotations. You did give credit for your sources. > > What is that joke? If you steal from one author it's plagiarism. If you > steal from many it's research. :) Yep. That's an old one -- I heard it when I was a student, and students today still hear the same thing. MaryL > I still remember the chilling feeling when I went into a college > class where we had all just turned in some fairly difficult research [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jo Isn't that what footnotes and the bibliography section of the paper are for? Maybe some of the other students didn't know those simple rules. Heck, we even had to do that in high school when writing papers for literature class. Jill >> I still remember the chilling feeling when I went into a college >> class where we had all just turned in some fairly difficult research [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Jill That's how credit would have been given (or should be) -- footnotes, endnotes, parenthetical citations, etc. along with bibliographical entries. I used to footnote *everything,* even if I developed what seemed to be my own idea but it was based on a series of several articles. It's always better to go to the extreme in giving credit than to do the reverse. MaryL > I still remember the chilling feeling when I went into a college class where > we had all just turned in some fairly difficult research papers. The > professor went into a complete tirade over plagiarism, etc and threatened to > fail most of the class. Needless to say my blood ran cold as did everyone > else's. > This was an advanced corporate accounting class. And to be honest > originality isn't exactly a valued concept in the accounting world. You are > supposed to get it right, not try something unique and cleaver. > So I went to the teacher after class and hesitantly asked how much trouble I > was in. He said none at all. Yes, my entire paper was virtually lifted > from various sources. But each and every one was properly identified and > credited. Isn't that what a research paper is, though? You research what is out there, and then present the information as some sort of coherent whole, citing your sources. Right? Joyce > Isn't that what a research paper is, though? You research what is out > there, and then present the information as some sort of coherent whole, > citing your sources. > > Right? Well, that would be a basic, run-of-the-mill research paper, but when I was a student, the teachers did encourage original thinking and presenting new ideas, as well as analysis and criticism of the research you cited. From what I see in my work (one of my duties is checking the language in Master's and PhD theses), this is still true. SignatureMarina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. >> Isn't that what a research paper is, though? You research what is out >> there, and then present the information as some sort of coherent whole, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > From what I see in my work (one of my duties is checking the language in > Master's and PhD theses), this is still true. Correct, especially at that level. The problem is that many students (especially undergrads) do not realize that they must give credit even if they merely derive an idea from a particular source. Many seem to think that they only need to use citations if a direct quotation is used, and some do not even give credit when they closely paraphrase. MaryL >>Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat >>groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > may not be illegal but it is unethical. On the other hand, usenet is such a > wide-open forum that this probably happens with great frequency. Also, people will cross post to other groups, quoting the original (un-cross-posted) message in their own response. So? If anyone thinks that, in our electronic age, "privacy" is more than a convenient fiction, I have this bridge for sale...... (If you don't want to be quoted - or misquoted - on the internet, the only solution is to refrain from posting anything, anywhere!) >>>Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat >>>groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > misquoted - on the internet, the only solution is to refrain from posting > anything, anywhere!) Of course, I tried to make a distinction between what is technically correct (plagiarism on the Internet, at least under US law -- an add-on thanks to Lori's suggestion) and reality (no real chance that it will be enforced on usenet). MaryL > I have never heard of catbanter.com. Did they give you credit? If not, it > may not be illegal but it is unethical. On the other hand, usenet is such a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > MaryL One of my writings which appears on several websites (which is fine; I make sure the attributions are there) was *plagiarized*. I found this out by Googling on a phrase from it. Worse? I was plagiarized . . . Ready? . . . By a nun! Ginger-lyn "I am not making this up" >> I have never heard of catbanter.com. Did they give you credit? If not, >> it may not be illegal but it is unethical. On the other hand, usenet is [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Ginger-lyn > "I am not making this up" Hilarious! And sad. What a commentary. MaryL >> I have never heard of catbanter.com. Did they give you credit? If not, >> it may not be illegal but it is unethical. On the other hand, usenet is [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Ginger-lyn > "I am not making this up" Maybe God spoke to her Ginger maybe you are a instrument of the gods ;-) > Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other cat > groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Tweed Given the nature of Usenet, it's quite easy to set up a server to archive Usenet postings and make them accessible via other avenues - linked web pages, forums, etc. And I'm not aware of any laws that prevent that sort of thing. Indeed, if it was illegal, Google Groups would have to shut down their service. Dan > Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other > cat groups and post them on their forum? > I was just shocked while I was net searching for something else to > find , some of my posts to rpca came up on that site. I had never > heard of catbanter before. Does anyone on the group know anything > about this site? No, it's not. They can take small quotes for fair use, but they can't post as if it's theirs. However, the law is rather shaky on this and you probably don't want to get involved in a big legal hassle. When this happened on another newsgroup, the person who'd been plagiarized politely asked them to stop, and the site was taken down. No apology and no response, but it was taken down. Chak SignatureBecause we don't think about future generations, they will never forget us. --Henrik Tikkanen >> Is it legal for them to take posts from rpca, rpcc and all the other >> cat groups and post them on their forum? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No, it's not. They can take small quotes for fair use, but they can't > post as if it's theirs. In the case of CatKB (I haven't looked at catbanter yet) they aren't doing that - look at the site. They're providing an alternative access route to Usenet, as Google Groups does. As I see it, the bottom line is that the two regular posters we have here from CatKB are the sort of folks we'd all welcome, however they got here. If CatKB helped them find us, it's done some good. ============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ============== Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975 stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557 |
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