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Advice, please!! - (long)

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Pat - 22 May 2007 03:41 GMT
I'm stuck between all sorts of rocks and hard places here and am about to
lose my mind. I have to do something about it, and would like some input.

First, the background:

I am surrounded by neighbors with dogs that bark all night long. If one's
quiet, others aren't. Most nights they keep me from getting a good rest.
It's only a little bit easier in winter because I can keep the windows
closed, but I can't do that all year without air conditioning.

The neighbor on the west has three dogs that they lock in the utility room,
spitting distance from my bedroom window, every night. They leave an outside
door wide open with a gate across the bottom half so the dogs can't get out,
and the inner door is closed to the rest of their house, and they sleep on
the opposite side of the house with their bedroom door shut so they don't
hear their own dogs barking all night.

The dogs run loose all the time, which is against a city leash law, and they
poop in my yard daily as well as tear into trash cans and leave trash of all
kinds scattered all over my yard.

One of these dogs has attacked children riding bicycles along the street and
has attacked me twice and has attacked the man across the street also.

This evening I caught the woman letting the dogs run through my yard and
asked her politely to please keep them in her own yard. She started bitching
at me, and I told her those dogs keep me awake all the time, and that
there's not only a leash law but also a barking law, and that I've put up
with a lot from their dogs and never complained to the police about them
because I wanted to be neighborly, but by God do I not also deserve a bit of
consideration?

Then her husband starting yelling at me to get off of their property (I was
standing between the two houses talking to the woman and not really paying
attention to which side of the property line I was on) or he was going to
have me arrested for trespassing.

He also said not to complain to him about the dogs, that they NEVER bark at
night and NEVER leave his yard, and it must be other dogs that I hear and
whose poop I walk through, etc. and that I had better call the police about
it, and if I want solitude I should move out to the country.

Well because of this attitude I am thinking it's time to make a formal
complaint. The lady who used to live across the street says she will testify
to seeing them let those dogs run into my yard all the time and she also saw
the attack on the child on the bicycle. I'm going to try and find the child,
and speak with the man across the street who got attacked also.

It's pure luck that no one has been hurt so far. That dog came after me
growling and snarling on two different occasions and scared the life out of
me. I can only imagine how scared the boy must have been. The owners of the
dogs know about the attacks. Every time one happens, they will keep that dog
tied up for a few weeks, but then they go back to letting it run free.

What has stopped me so far from making a formal complaint is (a) my word
against theirs (which has now been solved), (b) not wanting to make an enemy
(I no longer have a choice on that part), and (c) fear of retaliation -
e.g., they set fire to my house, or poison the cats once I can let them out
into the yard.

Ideally, this whole group purrs up a reason for these folks to just MOVE
OUT. Or I find a way to buy that house (it's for sale) and rent it to
tenants of my own choosing.

Failing that, what do you think I ought to do? I haven't had a decent
night's sleep in 16 months, and it is literally killing me, and no way on
earth will I risk the safety of the cats, but they deserve to be able to go
outside.
Kathy - 22 May 2007 04:21 GMT
> I'm stuck between all sorts of rocks and hard places here and am about to
> lose my mind. I have to do something about it, and would like some input.
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> earth will I risk the safety of the cats, but they deserve to be able to go
> outside.

Lord knows, the buying the house out from under them sounds like a great
idea if you could do it. But call the police, preferably when you hear
the dogs yowling at the top of their little lungs. Or call City Hall and
check the ordinances and see whether they have an animal control
officer. Whom you should call the first time you see the dogs out with
human supervision, i.e. leashes....
JMHO. of course, but I would try something since you asked them nicely
and they acted like somebody died and made them king. Dog people thing
they have more rights than other people sometimes. And that's just my 2
cents, too...
Kathy
Sherry - 22 May 2007 05:05 GMT
On May 21, 9:41 pm, "Pat" <patricia251.catlit...@centurytel.net>
wrote:
> I'm stuck between all sorts of rocks and hard places here and am about to
> lose my mind. I have to do something about it, and would like some input.
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> earth will I risk the safety of the cats, but they deserve to be able to go
> outside.

Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the dogs
are running loose. Every time.

Go to the courthouse and find out who owns the house. Call the
landlord and tell him about the dogs. He'll
be very interested to know his tenants are keeping viscious dogs --
that is a liability issue for *him*.

In the meantime, buy some earplugs. They're pretty effective. DH used
to wear them when we had loud
teenagers in the house. He's always worked night shift.

Sherry
Pat - 22 May 2007 05:26 GMT
| Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the dogs
| are running loose. Every time.

I've done that countless times. The police in this town do not care. They
might show up hours later, if at all.

| Go to the courthouse and find out who owns the house. Call the
| landlord and tell him about the dogs. He'll
| be very interested to know his tenants are keeping viscious dogs --
| that is a liability issue for *him*.

I know who owns the house. They same people that I bought this one from.
They hate me, because I tried to get them to keep their promise to pay half
the cost of the title work, which is customary for sellers to do in this
town, and to give me the tenants' rent and security deposit, which they
refused to do and almost kept me from buying the house because of it. They
would simply laugh at me if I called them.

| In the meantime, buy some earplugs. They're pretty effective. DH used
| to wear them when we had loud
| teenagers in the house. He's always worked night shift.

I have been using earplugs.

When did you last listen to the high-pitched and very penetrating YIP of TWO
Bichon Frises? I've got the best earplugs money can buy, and they block
about half of the sound of those animals.
jmcquown - 22 May 2007 07:55 GMT
>> Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the dogs
>> are running loose. Every time.
>
> I've done that countless times. The police in this town do not care.
> They might show up hours later, if at all.

Is there a dog catcher?  Animal control?  Even most small towns have a dog
catcher?

>> Go to the courthouse and find out who owns the house. Call the
>> landlord and tell him about the dogs. He'll
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> buying the house because of it. They would simply laugh at me if I
> called them.

Apparently they don't care about their potential liability as landlords, eh?
If those dogs bite someone, child or otherwise, and their tenants let them
run loose they could be sued as co-defendants.

John is rapidly shaking himself loose of being a landlord.  His ex- got him
into that and he has found himself with more messes to clean up than with
good tenants.  But I digress.  As landlords they *are* responsible to a
degree about what their tenants do.  Is there a town council?  City council?
There must be someone you can appeal to.  I mean other than out and out
hiring a lawyer and taking them to court.

When my dog Sampson (RB) was alive I used to worry because if someone
knocked on the door he'd go into major bark mode.  And he may have only
weighed 12 lbs. in his heydey but he had the deep bark of a labrador.
People always thought I had a *big* dog because he didn't yap.  And I
worried, when I was at work, what if UPS or someone knocked on the door?
The dog would bark his head off, of course.  But I couldn't spend all my
time worrying about it.

>> In the meantime, buy some earplugs. They're pretty effective. DH used
>> to wear them when we had loud
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of TWO Bichon Frises? I've got the best earplugs money can buy, and
> they block about half of the sound of those animals.

You should not have to deal with sleepless nights like this.  I tried
earplugs in a noisesome situation; unfortunately they just hurt my ears.
I'd rather have suffered through barking than the pain.

I wish you well with this, Pat!

Jill
Shawn Martin - 22 May 2007 11:52 GMT
>>> Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the dogs
>>> are running loose. Every time.
>>
>> I've done that countless times. The police in this town do not care.
>> They might show up hours later, if at all.

snip...

OK: I really wanted to avoid this.  It sounds so medieval.
I have been through this before at least 10 times.  The first couple of
times I did like you;
I tried to have a civil conversation with the owners.

I was young, and didn't understand that the behavior of pets often imitates
their owners.

The only thing this accomplished was that they knew who finally disappeared
their dogs.

You are stuck now, because you opened your mouth.

Next time...  be quiet.

Get some mole bait  (Containing strychnine.)  Put several pellets into a
golf ball sized piece of ground beef.

Place these in YOUR yard in a container, when your pets are corralled
elsewhere.

(Remember? the dogs NEVER go into YOUR yard.)
Pick up and refrigerate when you pets go out.
Repeat as necessary.
Act innocent.
When they retaliate, have them arrested for THAT.
Adrian A - 22 May 2007 11:58 GMT
>>>> Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the
>>>> dogs are running loose. Every time.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Act innocent.
> When they retaliate, have them arrested for THAT.

That's disgusting sugestion! Pat's better that that.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
Cats leave pawprints on your heart.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

Shawn Martin - 22 May 2007 12:09 GMT
>>>>> Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the
>>>>> dogs are running loose. Every time.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> That's disgusting sugestion! Pat's better that that.

So be it.  (The dogs are gooing to be put down eventually)
Matthew - 22 May 2007 17:16 GMT
"Shawn Martin" <painless@nospam.starband.net>

<snipped for being posted by an idiot>

Gee can we see that school is out for the summer

abuse@usenetserver.com

<plonk>
jmcquown - 22 May 2007 15:43 GMT
>>>>> Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the
>>>>> dogs are running loose. Every time.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> That's disgusting sugestion! Pat's better that that.

I have to say not only did I reinstitute a block on gmail posters but I also
reinsituted a block against this idiot who would suggest poisoning pets.
And didn't appreciate his/her piggybacking on my post to suggest such a
thing!

I'm going to enjoy a nice morning on the patio watching the birds.

Jill
Bombshelle - 22 May 2007 23:48 GMT
>>>> Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the dogs
>>>> are running loose. Every time.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Act innocent.
> When they retaliate, have them arrested for THAT

Shawn's got the right concept, but the wrong attitude toward animals.

Once the dog gets onto your property, catch it and take it down to the pound
as a lost dog. If the owners bother to retrieve the dog, they are admitting
to breaking both leash laws and allowing the dogs to trespass and will have
to pay a fine. You, however, are well within your legal rights to remove an
animal on your property.

As to the barking, your first mistake was saying nothing for 16 months. That
implies you were happy with the situation for 16 months. This may well ruin
any case you want to bring against them. Also, since dogs are *supposed* to
bark, to make a case against your westerly neighbours, you'll need to
establish that the barking is *excessive*. That means keeping a diary (and
possibly tape recording) of the time the dogs bark and how long they bark,
and establishing that their barking is excessive rather than 'reasonable'.
It would help your case if the other neighbours did the same. You may also
wish to note down the dates and times the dogs were in your yard if you
don't manage to catch them. Also write in your diary *now* your best
recollection of the conversation you had with the dog owners, the exact
words you said, the exact words they said, at what time, and what date, and
the fact you fear retribution, as this establishes the first time at which
the neighbours knew of your objection to their dogs. Once you have an
established case of excessive barking, consistant breach of leash laws, and
a repeated trespassing, write a formal letter of complaint (preferrably from
all the neighbours and not just you) to the landlord stating the relevant
laws and his liability. If nothing happens, sue.

IANAL

Shelle
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 22 May 2007 17:49 GMT
> | Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the dogs
> | are running loose. Every time.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Bichon Frises? I've got the best earplugs money can buy, and they block
> about half of the sound of those animals.

I may have my breeds mixed up, but those are LITTLE dogs,
aren't they?  Maybe you should just sic the cats on them! ;-)
Pat - 22 May 2007 18:08 GMT
| > When did you last listen to the high-pitched and very penetrating YIP of TWO
| > Bichon Frises? I've got the best earplugs money can buy, and they block
| > about half of the sound of those animals.
|
| I may have my breeds mixed up, but those are LITTLE dogs,
| aren't they?  Maybe you should just sic the cats on them! ;-)

They're not that small. And I don't let the cats outside - yet. I need to
finish the fence, but I'm stuck because I do not have four hands. It's a
two-person job, and I am just one person.
Karen AKA Kajikit - 22 May 2007 19:23 GMT
>| > When did you last listen to the high-pitched and very penetrating YIP of
>TWO
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>finish the fence, but I'm stuck because I do not have four hands. It's a
>two-person job, and I am just one person.

My sister-in-law has a bichon friese... they're very noisy dogs but
from what I can tell they're not agressive at all - in fact they're
huge chickens. I'm sure that the cats would win any bichon-feline
confrontation without even breaking a sweat!
:-)Liz - 22 May 2007 19:37 GMT
I know you're using ear plugs but have you tried the industrial use ones...
made for use when operating machinery..They block all noise (I use those...
as all others just muffle sound.) :-) Liz

> | Call the cops *when* the dogs are barking. Call them *when* the dogs
> | are running loose. Every time.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Bichon Frises? I've got the best earplugs money can buy, and they block
> about half of the sound of those animals.
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 22 May 2007 19:51 GMT
":-\)Liz" <wldwzzy@fuzzyyahoo.com> wrote:

> I know you're using ear plugs but have you tried the industrial use ones...
> made for use when operating machinery..They block all noise (I use those...
> as all others just muffle sound.) :-) Liz

Where do you get them, Liz? Do they go into the ear in the same way
as the foam ones, or are these the external ones, that look like large
headphones? I wouldn't be able to sleep with big headphones on.

Joyce
:-)Liz - 22 May 2007 20:07 GMT
They can be bought at tool sales stores and a few Home Improvement
store..They come in three varieties, insert ear buds with connecting cord (I
use these), small headphone type and large over ear type..Look for the
highest decibel rating variety. :-) Liz

> ":-\)Liz" <wldwzzy@fuzzyyahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Joyce
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 22 May 2007 22:26 GMT
":-\)Liz" <wldwzzy@fuzzyyahoo.com> wrote:

> They can be bought at tool sales stores and a few Home Improvement
> store..

Thanks!

By "tool sales stores", do you mean hardware stores? I'm not sure
where you're posting from, but in the US, the place where one buys
common household tools such as hammers and nails, etc, is always called
the hardware store. Maybe it's called something else in other places?

> They come in three varieties, insert ear buds with connecting cord (I
> use these),

What's the connecting cord for? I assume the cord connects the ear plugs
to each other, and not to something else.

> Look for the
> highest decibel rating variety. :-) Liz

Absolutely!

Joyce
:-)Liz - 23 May 2007 01:47 GMT
Specialty stores...those dealing in just the sale of tools... like the
Makita Store..Yep cord is to keep from losing them.... :-) Liz

> ":-\)Liz" <wldwzzy@fuzzyyahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Joyce
Bettina - 22 May 2007 15:56 GMT
Now you are at war. There are things to do.

The outer work:
Find a person you trust. (Family?Friends?)
Someone whose last name is different than yours.
Let them buy the house. Nobody will know that you`re involved.
Then buy the house from them.

Or, if possible buy the house via a solicitor.
Don`t know if it is possible to keep your name out of it as long as
possible.

Using your name will result in a higher price as you stated the owners
hate you.

Keep your profile low with the neighbours. A killed cat is a price too
high to pay.

The inner work:
Play it patiently, play it smooth.
Convince yourself that the neighbours will vanish and that it will be
soon.
Live with that feeling inside, nurture it.
Visualize before falling asleep a quiet and safe neighbourhood.

Our emotions and attitudes shape the world.
Our emotions and attitudes attract coincidents.

So, with the inner work you will shape conditions that will result in
the neighbours leaving.
For whatever reasons will occur.

The outer work caters for your and your cats safety.
Play it slow and patient. You will succeed. Feel strong.

And, I know that you never ever would hurt an animal.
It is the owners who are responsible.
Dogs only act out the emotional  realms of their owners.

Good luck and success!

Bettina
Pat - 22 May 2007 16:10 GMT
| Now you are at war. There are things to do.
|
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
| Don`t know if it is possible to keep your name out of it as long as
| possible.

These are good suggestions however there is no way I can afford to buy that
house. I am barely keeping up with expenses as it is (in fact, falling
behind quite severely). This is sad because at the price being asked for the
house it is a very good deal and reasonable rent would more than cover the
costs of owning it. It would be a positive cash flow situation. And rental
housing is nearly impossible to find in this town and in great demand. But I
would have to put up a downpayment and prove ability to make mortgage
payments, which I could not do. Even if I bought it, if it sat vacant for as
little as one month, it would devastate my finances.
Bettina - 26 May 2007 13:38 GMT
> | Now you are at war. There are things to do.
> |
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> payments, which I could not do. Even if I bought it, if it sat vacant for as
> little as one month, it would devastate my finances.

I am sorry, I misinterpreted this from your post. Thought you had the
means to buy.
So, if this is not possible you really should find help to build that
fence. Even if you don`t know them - ask a nice neighbour for help.
Just do it, most are willing to help if asked. Or put a message that
you need a helping hand on a board somewhere in your village.

I wish you and your cats the best and pray for those neighbours to
move away.

Bettina
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 22 May 2007 17:45 GMT
> Failing that, what do you think I ought to do? I haven't had a decent
> night's sleep in 16 months, and it is literally killing me, and no way on
> earth will I risk the safety of the cats, but they deserve to be able to go
> outside.

I admire your fortitude!  I would have called the police
long since - every NIGHT, if need be - until they resolved
the situation!  I realize it's more difficult if they are
engaging in nightly "conversations" with neighboring
animals, but dogs can be TRAINED not to bark unless there's
a valid reason.  (Maybe, if you can get enough of the
neighborhood on your side, the arrogant neighbors who think
their dogs have more "rights" than their fellow humans may
decide THEY should move to the country!)
Pat - 22 May 2007 18:10 GMT
| > Failing that, what do you think I ought to do? I haven't had a decent
| > night's sleep in 16 months, and it is literally killing me, and no way on
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
| their dogs have more "rights" than their fellow humans may
| decide THEY should move to the country!)

They moved from the country, just before I did. The rental house they were
in burned down. They told me before that they want to find the big dog a
country home.

Soon, no one around here will be able to live in the country if they need to
drive to town to work. The gas is just too high.
Noon Cat Nick - 22 May 2007 18:17 GMT
It's time to build up a network of advocacy, because you've been all
alone so far in this struggle and it hasn't worked, and won't.

You already have at least one other neighbor willing to testify on your
behalf. That's a start, and a help if and when you decide to file a
notice of infraction.

Talk to the administrators of whatever shelters are in your city and ask
them what can be done. These people routinely have legal connections.

See if you can schedule an appointment with your city's attorney. From
your description, there are more than just leash and noise ordinance
violations being flouted here. These animals have been strewing trash
and leaving canine waste across your lawn, and one of them has been
overtly vicious on repeat occasions. Let him/her know that local law
enforcement officials have been notified by you numerous times, but have
failed to act; the city police department has to have your complaints,
and whatever action was taken, on record.

Make sure you explain the animosity toward you by the owners of that
house, and that trying to reconcile with them is out of the question. I
know you're strapped financially, so initiating a personal suit against
them isn't an option for you. But the city can step in and do something.
The key is for the city to take legal action against the *owners* of
that property, not the renters. You've got no hope of buying that house
anyway, so it's not like you have to refrain from making waves to
placate them; they shown they refuse to be placated.

Contact the nearest chapter of the SPCA. They might have connections,
plus ideas on how to deal with the situation. It's possible this could
be construed as animal negligence on the part of the dogs' owners (but
don't hang your hopes on that, of course).

Keep your cats indoors from now on. This will be very hard if they're
used to being let outdoors regularly, but the neighborhood is simply not
safe for them any longer. Purchase inexpensive floor fans, at least to
keep air flow through your house. Also let whomever you talk to about
this matter know that you have reasonable grounds (if, in fact, you have
such grounds) to believe that your neighbors might retaliate illegally
if action is taken. Jealously protect yourself and your pets from
present and potential harm regarding this situation.

If I can think of anything else, I'll post it in this thread. HTH.

>I'm stuck between all sorts of rocks and hard places here and am about to
>lose my mind. I have to do something about it, and would like some input.
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>
>  
Pat - 22 May 2007 18:30 GMT
| Talk to the administrators of whatever shelters are in your city and ask
| them what can be done. These people routinely have legal connections.

No shelters here. Not a one. Closest one is about 75 miles. I have no clue
who the administrators are. Also cannot afford long distance calls.

| See if you can schedule an appointment with your city's attorney.

My city has an attorney? I don't think anyone in our city hall even knows
what the term "city attorney" means!

| The key is for the city to take legal action against the *owners* of
| that property, not the renters. You've got no hope of buying that house
| anyway, so it's not like you have to refrain from making waves to
| placate them

Those people are MEAN. I learned this at the closing and after. I won't go
into details here, but I *do* mean MEAN.... Think, violent.... I have heard
stories from the neighbors. They used to live in this house, and two of the
neighbors work with the man and have seen him blow up on many occasions.

| Keep your cats indoors from now on.

They've been cooped up in this house for 16 straight months. I've been
trying to get a fence up so they can go out. They deserve to go out. It took
me a long time to acquire the fence materials, and now I can't finish it for
want of two extra hands.

| If I can think of anything else, I'll post it in this thread. HTH.

I'll be watching. Thanks.
Joy - 22 May 2007 19:09 GMT
> | Talk to the administrators of whatever shelters are in your city and ask
> | them what can be done. These people routinely have legal connections.
>
> No shelters here. Not a one. Closest one is about 75 miles. I have no clue
> who the administrators are. Also cannot afford long distance calls.

Check to see if they have a website.   Maybe you can contact them by email.

> | See if you can schedule an appointment with your city's attorney.
>
> My city has an attorney? I don't think anyone in our city hall even knows
> what the term "city attorney" means!

You might check your phone book on this one.  It would be listed under
"Whatever, City of ..."

Joy
PatM - 22 May 2007 23:24 GMT
Are there any local organizations you can get envolved in so you can
be seen as being part of the community?  Small towns can be pretty
cliquish.  Church, grade school, garden club...it just seems like
you're all alone and you need a friend, and you need to build
connections.  But this is long term.  Is there a young person nearby
who would work cheap to help you with the fence?  Could you barter
with someone...offer to clean their house or watch their pets when
they're away?  Put up an ad at the post office?  I think the more
people you talk to the better.  Ex... make a habit of having coffee
(ice tea) 2 or 3 times a week at the local diner.

What Noon Cat Nick said was good.  I'll add DOCUMENT EVERYTHING!  Keep
a log...times, dates, what is said by whom.  Especially important
should this turn legal somewhere down the line, or in a "he said",
"she said" situation.

You can't buy the house, but maybe you could do a little "real
estating" on your own and try to find someone to buy it.  Show the
listing around.  Talk it up.  Someone might overhear you and go check
it out.  You said it was a good deal.  Or, maybe I watch too much
tv.LOL

Do you have some of that pepper spray?  Might be worthwhile to invest
in some for protection from 4-legged or 2-legged bullies.

PatM
Stormin Mormon - 23 May 2007 16:55 GMT
I'm sure you'll get a bunch of advice. Mine will be a bit off the
wall, I'm sure.

First, aparently you need an attorney to help go after these
folks. The local SPCA may have some advice. Probaly including
photographs and recordings.

My thought is to tape record the dog barking, and then at random
times during the night put on your ear plugs, ear muffs. And then
play the recording through a PA speaker right next to their
house. If they complain, after all you could not have a recording
of the dogs because they don't bark. So, you can't be playing
back barking that isn't happening.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

: I'm stuck between all sorts of rocks and hard places here and am about to
: lose my mind. I have to do something about it, and would like some input.
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
: earth will I risk the safety of the cats, but they deserve to be able to go
: outside.
Ginger-lyn - 23 May 2007 19:06 GMT
> I'm stuck between all sorts of rocks and hard places here and am about to
> lose my mind. I have to do something about it, and would like some input.
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> earth will I risk the safety of the cats, but they deserve to be able to go
> outside.

That's a hard position to be in, and I've been in similar ones here.  I
know what it's like to be terrified of retaliation from the neighbors
(all animal-welfare related things I did).  If you could buy the house,
that would great!  I don't practice Voudon, but I hear there is a "make
someone move" spell.

Otherwise, best I can suggest is call the Humane Society if there is any
animal care law they're breaking, and if that doesn't work, call the
police.  You shouldn't have to live like this.

Ginger-lyn
Nomen Nescio - 24 May 2007 07:00 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

From: "Pat" <patricia251.catlitter@centurytel.net>

>I'm stuck between all sorts of rocks and hard places here and am about to
>lose my mind. I have to do something about it, and would like some input.

http://www.smarthome.com/6117vs.html

"Don't let your dog's annoying barking disturb your neighbors or ruin your quiet time at home. Super Bark Stop is a humane and effective barking deterrent that won't shock or hurt your dog. Super Bark Stop uses an ultrasonic tone that only dogs can hear. Dogs don't like it and quickly learn that their barking triggers this negative response. The Super Bark Stop can be used with a 120V AC to 6V DC adapter or 4 D batteries, each sold separately

Super Bark Stop will work on any size or breed of dog, whether it's your pet or your neighbor's that's barking incessantly. The Super Bark Stop is completely weatherproof, so it's safe to place anywhere. Place the Super Bark Stop unit outdoors as close to the source of problem barking as possible, in direct line of sight of the dog; grass or plants can absorb the ultrasonic sound. Once in direct line of sight, the annoying dog won't miss the Super Bark Stop's response: Its 120dB output is loud enough to act as a true bark deterrent.

You can choose how loud the barking must be to activate the Super Bark Stop, which also has an adjustable bark number switch, which lets you determine how many barks in a 10-second period it takes to activate the unit, thus helping to eliminate false readings. Super Bark Stop features two different tone settings: ultrasonic (only dogs can hear it) or audible (humans can hear it too). Thanks to its internal directional sound output, no unsightly cone adorns the unit. "
polonca12000 - 25 May 2007 21:37 GMT
> I'm stuck between all sorts of rocks and hard places here and am about to
> lose my mind. I have to do something about it, and would like some input.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> One of these dogs has attacked children riding bicycles along the street and
> has attacked me twice and has attacked the man across the street also.
<snip>
> Failing that, what do you think I ought to do? I haven't had a decent
> night's sleep in 16 months, and it is literally killing me, and no way on
> earth will I risk the safety of the cats, but they deserve to be able to go
> outside.

It's really hard, but I still think you should contact the police before
 the dogs really hurt someone badly.
Best wishes and purrs,
Polonca and Soncek
Lesley - 26 May 2007 13:48 GMT
> It's really hard, but I still think you should contact the police before
>   the dogs really hurt someone badly.

With you on this- how would you feel if those dogs seriously harmed or
even killed a child and you hadn't reported them?

I am sure you don't have to give a name or anything just tell the
police. It's not fair on the dogs either. They're being allowed to run
about without any control and if they did do something they'll be put
down. (Whenever I hear about small children being attacked I always
wonder whether it's entirely the dogs fault. When Dave was first in
hospital, there was a little girl in the news you had been mauled to
death by a pair of Dobermans. Turns out the dogs were guard dogs,
trained to be attack dogs and usually kept on the roof of a pub.
Someone was careless and left a door open and a baby unsupervised with
tragic results....I did think that was not entirely the dogs fault)

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
Christina Websell - 26 May 2007 20:06 GMT
>> It's really hard, but I still think you should contact the police before
>>   the dogs really hurt someone badly.
>
> With you on this- how would you feel if those dogs seriously harmed or
> even killed a child and you hadn't reported them?

These dogs are Bichon Frise, they are hardly going to kill a child, for g*ds
sake get a sense of proportion here.

Tweed
Pat - 26 May 2007 20:50 GMT
| "Lesley" <LMadigan@hhnt.nhs.uk> wrote
| >>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
| These dogs are Bichon Frise, they are hardly going to kill a child, for g*ds
| sake get a sense of proportion here.

They have two Bichon Frises and one big.. I dunno what, vicious beast. The
Bichons are the ones that YIP all night and day. I never said they attacked
anyone.
Ketzl's Dad - 26 May 2007 21:58 GMT
>> "Lesley" <LMadigan@hhnt.nhs.uk> wrote
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Bichons are the ones that YIP all night and day. I never said they attacked
> anyone.

And I quote: (or did I misread?)
" One of these dogs has attacked children riding bicycles along the street
and has attacked me twice and has attacked the man across the street also."

Signature

Joey DoWop Dee
Remember: It is To Laugh

Lesley - 27 May 2007 15:47 GMT
On 26 May, 12:06, "Christina Websell"
<spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:

> These dogs are Bichon Frise, they are hardly going to kill a child, for g*ds
> sake get a sense of proportion here.

Sorry I am not sure what size Bichon Frise are and the meanest two
dogs I ever encountered were a Yorkie and a toy poodle (the toy poodle
did so much damage to an German Shepherds front feet (probably all he
could reach) the shepherd had to have three toes amputated)

Besides even if they wouldn't harm a child, running towards a kid
barking could scare the kid off dogs for life- happened to a friend of
mine, he's six and a half feet tall and built like a tank but as a
result of being knocked off his bite by an over affectionate dog, he's
nervous around small dogs and anything bigger than a spaniel will
cause him to retreat unless there is a Human firmly holding the leash

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
Christina Websell - 28 May 2007 13:40 GMT
> On 26 May, 12:06, "Christina Websell"
> <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> did so much damage to an German Shepherds front feet (probably all he
> could reach) the shepherd had to have three toes amputated)

It winds me up, Lesley when it is suggested that dogs will kill a child,
"just like that."  Dogs that are bred to kill have a "prey response" that
can cause them to attack anything which is making high screaming sounds,
which suggests to them that it is being killed anyway.
Terriers and hounds need to be particularly watched for this but it is
sensible not to leave a small child unsupervised.

> Besides even if they wouldn't harm a child, running towards a kid
> barking could scare the kid off dogs for life- happened to a friend of
> mine, he's six and a half feet tall and built like a tank but as a
> result of being knocked off his bite by an over affectionate dog, he's
> nervous around small dogs and anything bigger than a spaniel will
> cause him to retreat unless there is a Human firmly holding the leash

He needs to get over this.   More kids should be exposed to more dogs.  IMO.
What do you suggest, dogs should be kept away from children?
At one time I was a lonely child and my neighbour's dog was my best friend.
I would collect her in the morning and we would go off in the countryside
all day.  Just me and her.
Children need dogs, dogs need children.  They are on the same wavelength.

Tweed
jofirey - 28 May 2007 19:28 GMT
> He needs to get over this.   More kids should be exposed to more dogs.
> IMO. What do you suggest, dogs should be kept away from children?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Tweed

About half the reason I take Kayla to the park is so she can adopt and play
with small children.  She is extremely good with them and will stay back if
I tell her to.  She thinks anyone big enough to stand up is big enough to
throw a ball.  And will retrieve or catch from two feet away and eagerly as
from fifty feet.   I don't know how many tiny little girls have knelt down
and just wrapped their arms around her neck and held on.

Always with the consent of parent of course.

We have about twenty kids that try to time their trips to the park so they
can play with her.

Aside from breaking up a soccer game of two there has never been even a hint
of a problem.

I do try not to encourage anyone to get this breed though.  Damn is she a
lot of work, and she sheds constantly.  And I love her to pieces.

At present she is "asleep" on my feet but she is restless enough I know she
is hoping to want to play and just making sure I don't go anywhere without
her.

Jo
MaryL - 28 May 2007 20:00 GMT
>> On 26 May, 12:06, "Christina Websell"
>> <spamf...@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Tweed

When my brother was about four or five years old, we went to the cemetery to
visit my grandmother's grave.  My brother went running ahead of us.
Suddenly, a large German shepherd came bounding up and attacked my brother.
(We learned later that the dog belonged to the caretaker and had previously
bitten a man who was also visiting the cemetery.)  My father grabbed a piece
of a heavy branch that was on the ground and was able to drive the dog away
from my brother.  My brother suffered a few bite wounds, but they
fortunately were not serious.

What did my parents do?  They got a puppy for us (a collie that we named
Lassie -- how original!).  We didn't know it, of course, but a large part of
their reason was to give us a dog to love and diminish the fear that either
of us might have had.  Well, that was a great dog, she would let us do
*anything* as we played with her, and my brother (and I) have never had any
fear of dogs.  I can't say whether he would have developed a fear of dogs
without that action, but I think it was far better of my parents to take
that approach than to have constantly warned us about "dangers."  We did
know enough not approach or touch a strange dog, but neither of us ever felt
intimidated by animals.

MaryL
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 26 May 2007 23:22 GMT
> I am sure you don't have to give a name or anything just tell the
> police. It's not fair on the dogs either. They're being allowed to run
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Someone was careless and left a door open and a baby unsupervised with
> tragic results....I did think that was not entirely the dogs fault)

I don't think it's ever the dog's fault. Dogs do either what comes
natural to them, or what they have been trained to do. The situation
you talked about here was completely due to human error. Humans left
the door open and someone left their baby unsupervised. The dogs did
what they had been trained to do.

Joyce
 
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