Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsGeneral TopicsCat AnecdotesHealth and BehaviorRescue
CatKB.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / November 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

[OT] Halloween ettiquette

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Yowie - 01 Nov 2004 00:07 GMT
Australia doesn't do Halloween.

Well, didn't.

The local kids have cottoned onto the fact that if they put on stupid
clothes and knock on people's doors, that some suckers will give them candy.
But, by and large, we still don't celebrate Halloween.

Thus we were quite unprepared for the knock on the door with 5 young kids
(all under 10) with no adult supervisor at 8:45pm last night, doing the
"trick or treat" thing. All I could say is "We don't do Halloween, sorry"
and shut the door.

Since there's alot of folk here who *do* celebrate Halloween, and figuring
that its going to become part of the cultural landscape once major retail
outlets figure out its another excuse to make more cash, I'd like some
Halloween Etiquette advice:

If you aren't celebrating Halloween for whatever reason (religious
objection? mourning the death of aloved one? ), how do you let the kids know
*not* to knock on the door, or do you just have to pretend not to be home?

Up to what time can you expect people to knock on your door? Does it go all
night? or is there some sort of accepted time after which you shouldn't be
disturbed?

If you do answer the door and/or don't give them treats, do you really get
tricked? What sort of trick is likely to happen?

Would an apple been a good substitute for candy (we later realised we had a
bag of apples in the fridge)?

What do you do if you've run out of goodies?

And do you reward *effort* in costuming with a decent wad of candy and not
reward stupid costumes (putting a plastic cowboy hat on is *not* good
costuming, IMHO) by reducing hte amount of candy? What is the proper amount
of candy per brat, err, kid anyway?

We didn't know any of the brats, err, kids that knocked on our door. They
weren't the kids from our street. How far do kids travel to get their candy,
how many houses do they visit, and should they be knocking on complete
stranger's doors?

And shouldn't an adult be supervising these kids anyway (at 8:45pm)?

Yowie,
Clueless
Cheryl - 01 Nov 2004 00:23 GMT
> Australia doesn't do Halloween.

Halloween (or, at least trick-or-treating) is dying off where I
live. I'm sad to see it go, though I know it is different depending
on where you live. 4 years in my house and the only trick-or-
treaters have been my next door neighbors kids, but I live on a
busy road and it isn't safe to be walking on it. In my former
residence (an apt complex) you'd see maybe one or two groups of
kids, always with a chaperone. But my brothers neighborhood has
visiters until around 9pm. Same with my parents neighborhood.

> If you aren't celebrating Halloween for whatever reason
> (religious objection? mourning the death of aloved one? ), how
> do you let the kids know *not* to knock on the door, or do you
> just have to pretend not to be home?

Here, you leave your front porch light off. But that doesn't
guarentee that the kids without chaperones aren't going to knock.

> What do you do if you've run out of goodies?

Pennies? Expect to be tricked though. lol j/k

> And do you reward *effort* in costuming with a decent wad of
> candy and not reward stupid costumes (putting a plastic cowboy
> hat on is *not* good costuming, IMHO) by reducing hte amount of
> candy? What is the proper amount of candy per brat, err, kid
> anyway?

No rewarding, all of them are treated equally in my book. 2 peices
each is what I give (or used to give)

> And shouldn't an adult be supervising these kids anyway (at
> 8:45pm)?


Yes, they should be. When I was a kid, Halloween was a time for bad
behavior among older kids, though. Little kids would get their
candy bags taken, houses would get "toilet papered" (or worse).

> Yowie,
> Clueless

When Eric was a little won, Halloween was one of our fun times. I
always made his costumes and went out with him through the
neighborhood. For that reason I have mixed feelings about "trick-
or-treating".

Signature

Cheryl

Seanette Blaylock - 01 Nov 2004 00:57 GMT
Cheryl <jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com> had some very interesting things
to say about Re: [OT] Halloween ettiquette:

>No rewarding, all of them are treated equally in my book. 2 peices
>each is what I give (or used to give)

Personally, I also offer candy to the parent/older sibling/whoever's
on escort duty, and do get a fair number of takers. :-)

Signature

"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be
doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.

:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL
Tanada - 02 Nov 2004 18:15 GMT
> When Eric was a little won, Halloween was one of our fun times. I
> always made his costumes and went out with him through the
> neighborhood. For that reason I have mixed feelings about "trick-
> or-treating".

What a wonderful memory of Eric!!  I sometimes miss taking the kids out,
but then I also love to sit on the porch and hand out treats.  We don't
do the doorbell thing as it not only disturbs the owners, but a couple
of them don't understand why we won't let them out the front door when
the bell rings.

We weren't going to hand out treats this year, but Jim (what a
thoughtful guy, seriously) pointed out that Rob (even though he denies
it) loves "treating" the little kids and talking to them.  We handed
out, or rather Rob handed out, four large bags of candy.  Rob was
thrilled and I resolved not to forget to celebrate every holiday that we
can.

Pam S.
Karen Chuplis - 01 Nov 2004 00:30 GMT
> Australia doesn't do Halloween.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> outlets figure out its another excuse to make more cash, I'd like some
> Halloween Etiquette advice:

Following advice is what I grew up with with modern adjustments:

> If you aren't celebrating Halloween for whatever reason (religious
> objection? mourning the death of aloved one? ), how do you let the kids know
> *not* to knock on the door, or do you just have to pretend not to be home?

Kids generally don't approach the house if a porch light is not on. And
usually there is a lit pumpkin on the premisis as well.

> Up to what time can you expect people to knock on your door? Does it go all
> night? or is there some sort of accepted time after which you shouldn't be
> disturbed?

We just turn the light off and blow out the pumpkin when a) candy runs out
or b) it is after 10.

> If you do answer the door and/or don't give them treats, do you really get
> tricked? What sort of trick is likely to happen?

Never have had a trick played, but in general it used to be egging the house
or toilet papering the trees. I think mostly the kids today are just set on
candy and wouldn't have a clue what to do if they were rebuffed except move
on to greener pastures.

> Would an apple been a good substitute for candy (we later realised we had a
> bag of apples in the fridge)?

Used to be a good one, but since a rash of razor blades stuck in apples,
only factory wrapped candy generally makes it past parental supervision.

> What do you do if you've run out of goodies?

See the above.

> And do you reward *effort* in costuming with a decent wad of candy and not
> reward stupid costumes (putting a plastic cowboy hat on is *not* good
> costuming, IMHO) by reducing hte amount of candy? What is the proper amount
> of candy per brat, err, kid anyway?

We do. Little kids get more candy. Those who are well old enough to be
moving on in the world get the "bad" candy (ie. not as desirable ie. NOT THE
CHOCOLATE). Unfair life may be, but we tend to be more generous to those
little ones that seem super excited and cute as hell about it. If older
brother or sister are doing chaperone duty taking the wee ones around, there
is usally extra booty tossed in for such vigilance and extraction of promise
from little kid to share. General rule of thumb three of something
(depending on on hand supply and number of treaters going around) for the
really derserving.

> We didn't know any of the brats, err, kids that knocked on our door. They
> weren't the kids from our street. How far do kids travel to get their candy,
> how many houses do they visit, and should they be knocking on complete
> stranger's doors?

Some people drive their kids around, but that was often because in my neck
of the woods it's often freezing or even snowing. I've never much cared for
Halloween. I still remember being thrilled though one Halloween when I
seemed to be scoring the "good" stuff (ie wrapped mini candy bars) by the
score. It was very snowy out though and in the dark, three houses from home
I tripped and spilled ALL my candy and couldn't find most of it in the snow.
That really was an unfair turn of events if you ask me.

Because of the inherent dangers of modern whackos in this world (news
stories featuring poisoned candy etc.) a lot of people now go to planned
events with people they know and trust or around to relatives and friends
only.  Grocery stores seem to do a lot of stuff for Halloween giving people
an option as well. It's not nearly the volume any more of door to door
treating as there used to be because of this. Smaller towns most likely have
more.

> And shouldn't an adult be supervising these kids anyway (at 8:45pm)?

There is *usually* one lurking in the background if the kids are under 10.
(see car referenced) or an elder sibbling (see reference above in "amount of
booty). It's pretty foolish if they don't.

> Yowie,
> Clueless
Jo Firey - 01 Nov 2004 03:44 GMT
> Australia doesn't do Halloween.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "trick or treat" thing. All I could say is "We don't do Halloween, sorry"
> and shut the door.

That is a bit late in my book.  We usually "close up" around eight.

> Since there's alot of folk here who *do* celebrate Halloween, and figuring
> that its going to become part of the cultural landscape once major retail
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> know
> *not* to knock on the door, or do you just have to pretend not to be home?

As a rule if the house doesn't have any outside lights on, you leave it
alone.

> Up to what time can you expect people to knock on your door? Does it go
> all
> night? or is there some sort of accepted time after which you shouldn't be
> disturbed?

The little ones are usually around at twilight.  Between 5 and 6 pm.
Then the kids get older as it gets later.  I don't have much patience for
kids over 12 or later than 8.

> If you do answer the door and/or don't give them treats, do you really get
> tricked? What sort of trick is likely to happen?

No tricks around here.  And most of the tricks (vandalism for the most part)
is unrelated to treats.  It kids out to cause trouble.  From rubbing soap in
windows to smashing jack o lanterns to tossing toilet paper into trees.

In the "good old days"  they might drop cherry bombs down outhouses or light
a paper bag of dog poop on the porch of someone they disliked.  Or move the
outhouse onto the front porch.

> Would an apple been a good substitute for candy (we later realised we had
> a
> bag of apples in the fridge)?

Yes.  The kids usually bring home one or two.  But if you kids get an apple
you need to take a good look at it to be sure it hasn't been tampered with.

>What do you do if you've run out of goodies?

Turn off the outside lights and stop answering the door.

>Do you reward *effort* in costuming with a decent wad of candy and not
reward stupid costumes (putting a plastic cowboy hat on is *not* good
costuming, IMHO) by reducing hte amount of candy? What is the proper amount
of candy per brat, err, kid anyway?

Right now I'm passing out foil wrapped chocolate that looks like gold silver
dollars.  Cost something like $3 a pound.  Each kids gets two or three.

CUte little kids get admired and talked to.

> We didn't know any of the brats, err, kids that knocked on our door. They
> weren't the kids from our street. How far do kids travel to get their
> candy,
> how many houses do they visit, and should they be knocking on complete
> stranger's doors?

Kids will often go to a neighborhood that they perceve will have a better
class of treats rather than to where they live.  Parents will drive them
sometimes.  The smaller children usually only do their own neighborhood and
the parents will be with them or wait at the curb.
Tanada - 02 Nov 2004 18:54 GMT
> No tricks around here.  And most of the tricks (vandalism for the most part)
> is unrelated to treats.  It kids out to cause trouble.  From rubbing soap in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a paper bag of dog poop on the porch of someone they disliked.  Or move the
> outhouse onto the front porch.

One year, my brother and his buddies snuck up to the school principal's
house, picked up his car and turned it sideways in his drive-way.  It
took him a couple of days to get it turned around.

Another year, we gathered up all the jack-o-lanterns we could and lined
them up facing the principal's office window.  He handed out pumpkin
cookies for Thanksgiving.

We also scared the daylights out of the janitor by hanging a helium
filled balloon, covered by a white sheet, just outside the school door.
 It was dark when he got to work and it was bobbing and swaying in the
wind and....

So far harmless, more or less, pranks.  I did worse in college.

Pam S.
Seanette Blaylock - 03 Nov 2004 05:03 GMT
Tanada <tanada@earthlink.net> had some very interesting things to say
about Re: [OT] Halloween ettiquette:

>One year, my brother and his buddies snuck up to the school principal's
>house, picked up his car and turned it sideways in his drive-way.  It
>took him a couple of days to get it turned around.

Now *that's* a clever one. :-)

>We also scared the daylights out of the janitor by hanging a helium
>filled balloon, covered by a white sheet, just outside the school door.
>  It was dark when he got to work and it was bobbing and swaying in the
>wind and....

[giggle] This one's good too.

>So far harmless, more or less, pranks.  I did worse in college.

Got stories? :-)

Signature

"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be
doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.

:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL
Tanada - 04 Nov 2004 18:28 GMT
>>So far harmless, more or less, pranks.  I did worse in college.
>
> Got stories? :-)

I do, but I might corrupt the little 'uns.  I was a lookout for when we
stole the bubble lights off a couple of police cars and hung them up in
the college clock tower.  I also helped place a grave in the middle of
the school commons, which caused some consternation, filled a dorm room
with balloons and newspaper, piled up a stack of leaves in front of a
stairwell (no one got hurt, honest) so that they had to be removed
before anyone could go upstairs, helped pull a celebrity into a duck
pond, placed computer "chads" in a room mate's bed so that she'd leave
me alone, and a few other things I can't recall off hand.  I was a
little stinker.

Pam S.
Magic Mood Jeep? - 04 Nov 2004 18:56 GMT
>>> So far harmless, more or less, pranks.  I did worse in college.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Pam S.

I remember filling a roomate's boyfriend's car with popcorn.  Not the
packing kind, either, but the dripping with butter kind you buy at the movie
theater.  This was decades before microwave popcorn, so it took us 2 days to
pop it all in the dorm 'kitchenette' area.  :)

--?
The ONE and ONLY
lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy
former-blonde in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)? email me at
nalee1964 (at) insightbb (dot) com
http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep
Yowie - 05 Nov 2004 00:50 GMT
> >>> So far harmless, more or less, pranks.  I did worse in college.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> theater.  This was decades before microwave popcorn, so it took us 2 days to
> pop it all in the dorm 'kitchenette' area.  :)

On the last day of highschool, I helped fill my form master's car with the
foam beans you put in bean-bags. Apprantly, even 10 years later, he was
still finding a few beans under the eats, or in the vents, etc etc etc.

The year before us moved *their* form master's car (a mini minor) up onto
the roof of the walkway between two buildings. Coincidentally, it was *just*
mini-minor width wide. I have absolutely know idea how they pulled that one
off, and nor do I have any idea how he got it back down. All I know is that
it stayed there for 2 months, and then, one monday morning, it had gone.

Yowie
Jo Firey - 04 Nov 2004 19:08 GMT
>>>So far harmless, more or less, pranks.  I did worse in college.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Pam S.

I'm beginning to think I'll be too old to remember the stuff I did back in
the "good old days" by the time the kids/grandkids are old enough not to be
corrupted by it.

Sometimes I get tired of having to act responsible and grownup but I don't
need them following in my footsteps either.

Jo
badwilson - 05 Nov 2004 02:45 GMT
> >>So far harmless, more or less, pranks.  I did worse in college.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> me alone, and a few other things I can't recall off hand.  I was a
> little stinker.

Oh, I love college pranks!  The one I'm most proud of having
participated in was when a bunch of us dressed up in work coveralls
and drove a plain white van to McDonalds on a busy highway.  We got
out and in plain daylight dismantled the golden arches welcome sign
that points into the parking lot.  We took it off and loaded it into
the van and drove off.  Tons of people saw but everyone assumed it was
a work crew.  The sign graced my friend Marcel's living room for years
:-)
--
Britta
Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that's
covered in fur!
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
Sherry - 03 Nov 2004 14:43 GMT
>We also scared the daylights out of the janitor by hanging a helium
>filled balloon, covered by a white sheet, just outside the school door.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Pam S.

One year a few of us shaving-creamed the post office window. We got called in
to the principal's office very next day, and where given a stern lecture about
"defacing government property" and "federal offense" and "your 'permanent
record'. Scared the bejesus out of us. I honestly thought the federal
penetentiary must be full of 10th graders who didn't get off so lucky as I did.

Sherry
Enfilade - 05 Nov 2004 13:02 GMT
> >So far harmless, more or less, pranks.  I did worse in college.

My best friend and I rigged her house while her parents and brother
were out.  We actually set up a Super Soaker to spray them in the face
when they opened the front door.  We put duct tape over the light
switches so they had to go in in the dark, and then we'd hung stuff on
ropes from the ceiling for them to bump into (soft stuff, like stuffed
animals and clothes).  Finally, we put a scarecrow with a frying pan
in its upraised hand int he corner.  Her mom screamed thinking it was
a burglar.

Good times.

--Fil
Jean Hobbs - 05 Nov 2004 02:00 GMT
Like the one about the balloon with the sheet over it lol  Jean.P.

> > No tricks around here.  And most of the tricks (vandalism for the most part)
> > is unrelated to treats.  It kids out to cause trouble.  From rubbing soap in
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Pam S.
Sherry - 01 Nov 2004 04:43 GMT
>Up to what time can you expect people to knock on your door? Does it go all
>night? or is there some sort of accepted time after which you shouldn't be
>disturbed?

Here, it's about from 6 to 8 p.m. When you're out of candy, you turn the porch
light off. After 8 p.m., when the trick-or-treaters are bigger than you, and
their cigarettes fall out of their pockets when they bend over, it's time to
turn off the porch light.

Sherry
Cathi - 01 Nov 2004 05:43 GMT
Apologies if I sound like a killjoy, but here it goes.

I loathe trick or treating.  For the rest of the year, children are
discouraged from talking to and accepting sweets from strangers.  How
come it all changes around Halloween?

NB: I don't have any children, so to the majority of children round here
I *am* a stranger.  They might recognise me, but they certainly don't
know me at all.

A few years back, mid-October I got a knock on the door.  It was two
little dots trick or treating, no sign of an adult, and it was dark.

I explained that not only was it well before Halloween, but that it was
dangerous to go around knocking on strangers; doors asking for sweets.
They thought about this for a minute, and then informed me that they
went to school with the children who lived next door.

"But that doesn't mean you know me" I replied.

After a bit more thought, they informed me that they "usually washed the
man's car what lives here".  Biting my tongue at their appalling grammar
(!) I told them that I'd never seen them do so.  They gave me up as a
bad job.

About half an hour later, a group of teenage oiks appeared.  When told
it was too early, they advised me in no uncertain terms that they were
away at half-term (when Halloween fell) and wanted some money for that,
but that they'd be back at Halloween (? - I thought they were away?) and
that I'd better have something for them.  Needless to say I wasn't
around, and I saw no sign that they'd been back.  But I hate to think
what they might have done to the little kids out earlier.

/rant
Signature

Cathi

Karen Chuplis - 01 Nov 2004 06:39 GMT
> Apologies if I sound like a killjoy, but here it goes.
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> /rant

Yeah, it's pretty contradictory in a lot of senses. Really, over here any
more, fewer tykes are out doing it. There are so many organized events and
parties and parents feel so much safer about doing that, that I think active
treating door to door is slowing down. Of course, candy sales are still
good. But I swear, with the amount that has showed up at work in recent
days, I think half or more of the sales are really just going to offices :)
Sherry - 01 Nov 2004 06:55 GMT
>Yeah, it's pretty contradictory in a lot of senses. Really, over here any
>more, fewer tykes are out doing it. There are so many organized events and
>parties and parents feel so much safer about doing that, that I think active
>treating door to door is slowing down.

But trick or treating is so fun for the kids. Kids love to dress up and pretend
they're Spiderman, or a fairy princess or whatever. I just wish all trick or
treating was supervised and done only at friends and relatives' houses.

Of course, candy sales are still
>good. But I swear, with the amount that has showed up at work in recent
>days, I think half or more of the sales are really just going to offices :)

Yes, but where are the wax lips and wax harmonicas ?  :)

Sherry
jmcquown - 01 Nov 2004 15:06 GMT
>> Apologies if I sound like a killjoy, but here it goes.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> showed up at work in recent days, I think half or more of the sales
> are really just going to offices :)

I stopped even bothering with candy.  As you said, it was going to the
office with me (when I had one!) rather than being handed out.

I do think it's a shame, however, that it's no longer safe for kids to go
door-to-door.  I used to have such fun with trick-or-treat 35 years ago.

Jill
dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers - 01 Nov 2004 08:43 GMT
>Apologies if I sound like a killjoy, but here it goes.

Then I'm one too ;-)

>I loathe trick or treating.  For the rest of the year, children are
>discouraged from talking to and accepting sweets from strangers.  How
>come it all changes around Halloween?

Yup - I agree. Thankfully trick or treat is a custom that hasn't caught on too
much on this side of the pond. We've our own hallowe'en traditions over here -
now largely lost - bobbing for apples... apples on a string...

The bit I honestly find strange is how much hallowe'en is celebrated in the
USA, given it's very much a pagan festival & the States seems to be getting
more & more right-wing Christian, I see a strange contradiction there :-) Over
here we get churches which are more right-wing, evangelical churches going
public about *not* celebrating hallowe'en. Mind you they do try & hijack it as
"All Hallows" claiming it has nothing to do with anything pagan, never existed
in pagan ritual but is an entirely Christian festival.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--
Cheryl Perkins - 02 Nov 2004 20:08 GMT
> The bit I honestly find strange is how much hallowe'en is celebrated in the
> USA, given it's very much a pagan festival & the States seems to be getting
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "All Hallows" claiming it has nothing to do with anything pagan, never existed
> in pagan ritual but is an entirely Christian festival.

Well, ummm, All Hallows *is* Christian, although a thousand or so years
ago, it probably got started as a way for recent converts to remember
their dead at a familiar time, but in a new context. It's not a
particularly evangelical thing, though, celebrating All Hallows or All
Saints, for that matter. At least not in my experience; I'd say more
Catholic or Anglican/Episcopalian, and not the evangelical branches of
those, either.

My own theory on the North American Hallowe'en is that recent developments
in 'tradition' have been spurred on by nothing more or less than
commercialism. Besides the fact that I *really* don't think that something
that's been invented in my lifetime is an age-old tradition *anyway*, you
are supposed to buy all this stuff! It isn't just a few treats for little
kids in ghost costumes, it's all the decorations, too! People are
encouraged to go all out with the decorations and things by, of course,
companies who sell candy and chocolate and an array of decorations which
rival those of Christmas!

Now, some people get pleasure out of this sort of thing. I used to have a
neighbour who decorated the outside of her house every single month. There
was always *some* theme. And if she enjoyed it, that's fine. But all this
hype and fuss is not traditional, and sometimes veers over into the really
odd and nasty, like all the hysteria about poisoned candy and tortured
cats.

It's a very odd world we live in. Personally, I prefer to keep all
holidays in a very low-key fashion rather than buying into all the fuss -
literally as well as figuratively!

Signature

Cheryl

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers - 02 Nov 2004 21:15 GMT
>Well, ummm, All Hallows *is* Christian

Yes it is, but my point was that the origin is pre-Christian - All Hallows is a
"hi-jacked", for want of a better word, a pagan festival. Christianity has been
very good at taking over pre-Christian holidays and many an old Christian
church over here stands on what were orginally Roman and pre-Roman sites of
temples worshiping the gods.

>My own theory on the North American Hallowe'en is that recent developments
>in 'tradition' have been spurred on by nothing more or less than
>commercialism.

I tend to agree.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--
Dan M - 02 Nov 2004 22:06 GMT
>>Well, ummm, All Hallows *is* Christian
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> church over here stands on what were orginally Roman and pre-Roman sites of
> temples worshiping the gods.

Good point. Even Christmas is itself a hijacked holiday. Doesn't bother
me, as I celebrate the pre-Christian meanings of these holidays anyway,
but I do find it amusing sometimes.

Dan
Cheryl Perkins - 02 Nov 2004 23:36 GMT
>>Well, ummm, All Hallows *is* Christian

> Yes it is, but my point was that the origin is pre-Christian - All Hallows is a
> "hi-jacked", for want of a better word, a pagan festival. Christianity has been
> very good at taking over pre-Christian holidays and many an old Christian
> church over here stands on what were orginally Roman and pre-Roman sites of
> temples worshiping the gods.

And I guess my point is that it is that whatever "hi-jacking" occurred did
so well before anyone celebrating it today was born, that today's
Christians are celebrating a different holiday from the original Pagan
ones. I also disagree with describing the original process as
"hi-jacking". There's at least as much reason to consider the use of the
same sites and the same times of year a sign of the desire to make things
easier for the new converts and to adapt to the culture instead.

But whichever way it was, it happened a long, long time ago. And yes,
there are Christians who want to take out any sign of the Pagan origins,
and there are probably Pagans who want to do the reverse. That's only
natural.

Signature

Cheryl

Yowie - 03 Nov 2004 03:52 GMT
<snip>

> But whichever way it was, it happened a long, long time ago. And yes,
> there are Christians who want to take out any sign of the Pagan origins,
> and there are probably Pagans who want to do the reverse. That's only
> natural.

And then there are the hedonists amonst us that think "sod it" and celebrate
*both* :-)

Yowie
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 03 Nov 2004 04:54 GMT
> I also disagree with describing the original process as "hi-jacking".
> There's at least as much reason to consider the use of the same sites
> and the same times of year a sign of the desire to make things easier
> for the new converts and to adapt to the culture instead.

Exactly - the early Christians in Europe made it easier for the new
converts to adapt to Christian beliefs, symbols and culture, by
incorporating many of the "old religion" symbols and dates, giving
them new Christian names. I think that's what Helen meant by "hijacking".
Forced conversions don't generally go down that easily, but by allowing
people to keep certain aspects of their culture, which they were already
familiar and comfortable with, the Christians were successful.

I mean, the whole thing about the Easter bunny and Easter eggs comes
from the festival of fertility (Beltane?) in the spring. What better
symbols of fertility are there than eggs and rabbits? :) Even the name
Easter comes from a fertility goddess's name, Oestre, I believe (not
sure of the spelling, but it probably varies anyway). The word "estrogen"
comes from the same root.

This has very little to do with Jesus rising from the dead, but because
that is celebrated at the same time of year (just after Passover), that's
how the celebration of the Resurrection became mixed up with eggs and
bunny rabbits.

Joyce
Skippy - 03 Nov 2004 05:39 GMT
>  > I also disagree with describing the original process as "hi-jacking".
>  > There's at least as much reason to consider the use of the same sites
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Joyce

I showed this thread to my sister, who is a practicioner of norse magic,
both cauldron and sword & dagger magic.  According to her, the last
Viking king was King Olaf of Sweden.  He converted to Christianity, and
in order to convert his people in a more or less smooth transition, he
incorporated a great many old beliefs into his new religion.  Like,
christians call hades "Hell", when actally "Hel" was the goddess that
ruled the realm of the dead.  Yuletide, sometimes associated with
Christmas, actually comes from the Yule festival, and the decorating of
Christmas trees came from the act of decorating a tree to signify the
life tree "Yggdrasil", or the norse idea of a supreme being.  Mistletoe,
 was the only thing in existence that could defend against the god
balder, etc etc etc.  I've studied it some, but not to the extent that
she has, and I may have gotten some facts off a bit, but thats how I
remember her reciting it.

Mike
The early bird gets the worm;
but the 2nd mouse gets the cheese!!
Cheryl Perkins - 03 Nov 2004 12:39 GMT
> I showed this thread to my sister, who is a practicioner of norse magic,
> both cauldron and sword & dagger magic.  According to her, the last
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> she has, and I may have gotten some facts off a bit, but thats how I
> remember her reciting it.

The tree, at least, is usually attributed to the Germans, and was only
picked up by the English-speaking world when Victoria and Albert were
setting the fashions. It wasn't just the Norse who used trees in their
religion, the early Germanic people did, too.

The Yule log, is, I think, older in the English traditions, but that's one
that's dying out now, possibly as not many people have access to suitable
fireplaces and logs any more.

Signature

Cheryl

Skippy - 03 Nov 2004 14:09 GMT
> The tree, at least, is usually attributed to the Germans, and was only
> picked up by the English-speaking world when Victoria and Albert were
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> that's dying out now, possibly as not many people have access to suitable
> fireplaces and logs any more.

I think we're on the same page actually.  Weren't some of the old old
Germanic tribes vikings also.  Vikings were Nords, Scandinavians, Danes,
and a host of other northern tribes I believe.  Again, I'm just trying
to get this all shaken out of my memory so I might be off a tad.  Oh,
and sis did get one wrong, I just looked up Olaf, he was king of Norway,
not Sweden.

Mike
The early bird gets the worm;
but the 2nd mouse gets the cheese!!
Cheryl Perkins - 03 Nov 2004 14:25 GMT
> I think we're on the same page actually.  Weren't some of the old old
> Germanic tribes vikings also.  Vikings were Nords, Scandinavians, Danes,
> and a host of other northern tribes I believe.  Again, I'm just trying
> to get this all shaken out of my memory so I might be off a tad.  Oh,
> and sis did get one wrong, I just looked up Olaf, he was king of Norway,
> not Sweden.

I think many of the various northern European tribal cultures were
related, but the details are way outside my knowledge! I have a vague idea
that the migrations which brought the Angles, Saxons and Jutes to England
were only part of a larger picture. I did think that there was some
distinction between the Scandinavians and Northern Europeans, although it
was hardly a rigid one. The Normans were originally Scandinavian.

Some of those early Scandinavian kings took a rather, ummm, un-Christian
approach to their conversion activities. They didn't tend to give little
talks on sparrows or shamrocks to doubters, like some of the missionaries
in England and Ireland did.

Signature

Cheryl

Marina - 03 Nov 2004 15:34 GMT
> Mistletoe,
>  was the only thing in existence that could defend against the god
> balder

<splutter> Why would anyone want to defend themselves against the god
Balder, the bringer of good luck and happiness? All the Norse gods seem
pretty harmless, but you might want to defend yourself against Loke, the
trickster, or possibly against Thor in one of his more temperamental
moments. ;o)

Signature

Marina, Frank and Nikki
marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Kim Walters - 04 Nov 2004 00:28 GMT
>  > Mistletoe,
> >  was the only thing in existence that could defend against the god
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> trickster, or possibly against Thor in one of his more temperamental
> moments. ;o)

Wasn't mistletoe the only thing that didn't promise to not hurt Balder.  And
Loki somehow used it to kill him.   It's been a long time since I looked up
Norse mythology.

Signature

-Kim

owned by Egbert, Niobe, Sekhar and Rocket
take the cat out before you reply
one cat just leads to another...

http://photos.yahoo.com/sir_eg_of_bert
http://picturetrail.com/ownedbycats

Yowie - 03 Nov 2004 05:58 GMT
>  > I also disagree with describing the original process as "hi-jacking".
>  > There's at least as much reason to consider the use of the same sites
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> how the celebration of the Resurrection became mixed up with eggs and
> bunny rabbits.

Actually, the symbolism of life coming out of death and/or being born once
again is (to my mind at least) what the Resurrection was supposed to be all
about (IMHO), which is the why the symbolism of fertility and the
celebration of new life was so easily transferred from the Pagan religion(s)
to Christianity. Then again, a whole heap of disparate religions have common
themes such as virgin births, world floods, God in a man's form,
resurrection, final judgement etc etc its not such a surprise to find common
symbols and meanings in them.

I remember a very open-minded church I attended once, that we used a giant
chocolate egg as a stand-in for the bread part of the communion. I actually
liked the symbolism that we all partaking of the same thing (when its just
bits of bread on a plate, thats harder to see) and seeing it as a symbol of
new life. And it tasted better too!

Yowie
Karen Chuplis - 02 Nov 2004 20:35 GMT
in article 20041101024359.01302.00003303@mb-m04.aol.com,
dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers at wafflycathcs@aol.comcomcom wrote on
11/1/04 1:43AM:

>> Apologies if I sound like a killjoy, but here it goes.
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> --Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

Well, the US if nothing if not contrary :)  It is very strange. You should
see the decorations people put up! It gets to be more and more every year.
Jo Firey - 02 Nov 2004 20:40 GMT
> The bit I honestly find strange is how much hallowe'en is celebrated in
> the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> existed
> in pagan ritual but is an entirely Christian festival.

I'm sure you know if you think about it that in the US we are not by any
means a homogeneous group.  We have born again Christians, some right wing
and some not.  We have churches that are opposed to Halloween and others
that see it as a harmless children's holiday.  There are events for children
to go to whose parents for one reason on another don't want them to go trick
or treating.  Some think Halloween has pagan roots, others think it just a
grand good time.

We also have very moderate churches, and  many people who are just non
religious.  Maybe believe or maybe not but don't practice.  We have Atheists
and agnostics, Muslims, Jews Hindus Sikhs Buddhists Taoists pagans Wicca's
Santeria and many others.  Some stick to their own.  Others are happy to
celebrate anything that might be fun.

If we weren't all about contradictions, there wouldn't be any need for us to
vote, right?

Jo
Steve Touchstone - 02 Nov 2004 21:37 GMT
<snip>
>The bit I honestly find strange is how much hallowe'en is celebrated in the
>USA, given it's very much a pagan festival & the States seems to be getting
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>"All Hallows" claiming it has nothing to do with anything pagan, never existed
>in pagan ritual but is an entirely Christian festival.

I think the reason it's so big here is that it's so commercialized,
and merchants plan on making bucks selling costumes and candy. Seems
all the stores have aisles that they fill with stuff months before the
holiday. Recalling a thread a while back, some stores have had their
Christmas stuff for a couple months already. Besides, I wonder how
many parents even consider the origins.
Signature

Steve Touchstone,
faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Rocky (RB)

stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email]
Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html
Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

Dan M - 02 Nov 2004 22:03 GMT
> I think the reason it's so big here is that it's so commercialized,
> and merchants plan on making bucks selling costumes and candy. Seems
> all the stores have aisles that they fill with stuff months before the
> holiday. Recalling a thread a while back, some stores have had their
> Christmas stuff for a couple months already. Besides, I wonder how
> many parents even consider the origins.

I doubt that most parents are even aware of the origins. I know for a
fact that the few churches I used to attend don't have a clear picture.
Likewise with such traditions as the Easter bunny, Christmas trees, yule
logs, etc.
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 02 Nov 2004 22:30 GMT
> The bit I honestly find strange is how much hallowe'en is celebrated
> in the USA, given it's very much a pagan festival & the States seems
> to be getting more & more right-wing Christian, I see a strange
> contradiction there :-)

Oh, I think that, with the exception of people who are practicing pagans,
Halloween is considered to be a pretty secular holiday here. If anything,
it's an anti-pagan, anti-witchcraft holiday. "Witches" are considered to
be frightening and ugly, hardly the objects of celebration or respect.
Actually, anything "scary" is fair game, whether witches, ghosts or
goblins (shades of Dia de los Muertos?), or characters from popular
horror/slasher/serial killer movies. I doubt the average American thinks
of Halloween as anything other than an opportunity to get into a costume,
eat gobs of sugar, and possibly play some pranks (either innocent or
malicious).

Now the fundie churches *are* up in arms about it, but the response I've
always heard from average folks is on the order of, "HUH??? What are they
talking about?? Halloween is an innocent children's holiday!"

Joyce
Skippy - 01 Nov 2004 11:05 GMT
> Apologies if I sound like a killjoy, but here it goes.
>
> I loathe trick or treating.  For the rest of the year, children are
> discouraged from talking to and accepting sweets from strangers.  How
> come it all changes around Halloween?

Earlier tonight I saw the most interesting thing.  A local parish built
themselves a new church which just opened this spring, and for Halloween
they had what they were calling a "trunk or treat".  A lot of the church
members, 50 or so loaded up their trucks with candy and Halloween decor
and actually decorated their cars in a huge circle around the parking
lot.  One even had the prettiest black oriental shorthair and she was
just convinced that she was the most gorgeous thing out and about that
evening.  So the kids went from car to car, getting candy and their
pictures taken by everybody, look like lots of fun, and no one on the
roads and most likely very few strangers.

Mike
The early bird gets the worm;
but the 2nd mouse gets the cheese!!
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/skippymjp/my_photos
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 02 Nov 2004 06:32 GMT
> Earlier tonight I saw the most interesting thing.  A local parish built
> themselves a new church which just opened this spring, and for Halloween
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> just convinced that she was the most gorgeous thing out and about that
> evening.

Someone brought their cat to this? I'm amazed that a cat would feel
comfortable with all those people and cars everywhere.

Joyce
Stormin Mormon - 03 Nov 2004 03:06 GMT
I've known of LDS congregations to do that.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
    www.lds.org
    www.mormons.com

Halloween
they had what they were calling a "trunk or treat".  A lot of the church
members, 50 or so loaded up their trucks with candy and Halloween decor
and actually decorated their cars in a huge circle around the parking
lot.

So the kids went from car to car, getting candy and their
pictures taken by everybody, look like lots of fun, and no one on the
roads and most likely very few strangers.

Mike
Debbie Wilson - 01 Nov 2004 11:12 GMT
(snip)

> Thus we were quite unprepared for the knock on the door with 5 young kids
> (all under 10) with no adult supervisor at 8:45pm last night, doing the
> "trick or treat" thing. All I could say is "We don't do Halloween, sorry"
> and shut the door.

Having been in that position last year, and also having good memories of
going trick-or-treating when I was tiny in the US (I still have my
plastic pumpkin bucket) I got a bag of 'fun-size' chocolate bars in
readiness for Hallowe'en this year.  I sadly have to report that we got
not one single knock on the door, and so must eat the chocloate
ourselves. Why *do* they call those titchy small versions of full-size
sweets 'fun', anyway?

Deb.

Signature

http://www.scientific-art.com

"He looked a fierce and quarrelsome cat, but claw he never would;
He only bit the ones he loved, because they tasted good." S. Greenfield

Victor Martinez - 01 Nov 2004 12:43 GMT
We got about half a dozen groups of kids last night. The first was the
worse, two girls, one a bit too old to be doing it (at least she was in
costume) and both rude! They kept grabbing candy and didn't even say
"trick or treat". Tom was appalled at their rudeness.
The rest of the kids were lovely, particularly a little tyke in Spider
Man jammies who said something like "tweak or tweet"... :) he was
adorable and he *loved* my carved pumpkin!
We also enjoyed a group of what seemed to be underprivileged kids being
led by a group of college students. They got extra candy!

Victor, who is up for an obscenely early 7am meeting.

Signature

Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com

Enfilade - 02 Nov 2004 01:25 GMT
If the porch lights are out, it usually means no candy.  A lit porch
and Halloween decorations means trick or treaters welcome, at least
till the candy runs out, the pumpkins are blown out and the porch
lights go off.  We usually start trick-or-treat around 5 and it ends
around 7:30, maybe till 8 if the candy lasts.

Generosity depends on the area.  In the country, kids have to have
their parents drive them from farm to farm in the family truck.
There, it is not uncommon for one house to give out a chocolate bar, a
can of pop, a bag of chips AND some gum (because they get only 5-20
trick or treaters a night and the kids only get to go to 10-20
houses).  In the city, where you get hundreds, it's one piece of candy
per kid unless you have money to offer two pieces.

I grew up in the country, and my father would only take me to places
of people he knew (neighbours, relatives, people from his church, the
guys at the feed mill, his college friend).  One year I went out with
a friend trick-or-treat in town and going to all the strangers' houses
was really weird for me--but her dad was with us at least.  I think
it's irresponsible of parents to turn kids out unchaperoned.  In our
area, parents go with the kids until the kids hit 10 or so.  Also, my
mom never let me eat candy until she inspected it first.

Apples are usually ok, except for the following:  1. Kids prefer candy
and 2. Parents are sometimes wary of unwrapped treats, homemade goods
or even apples.  Cans of cola are a better last-minute treat.

No one really plays tricks if they don't get candy.  The worst that
happens is you get called a crabby ol' witch ;)  (Anyone who wants to
vandalize, smash pumpkins, throw eggs etc, will do it regardless of
candy.  These people are out to cause crap, not to get treats.)

I went out for trick or treat once in university with a friend and her
neighbour's kids--yes we were chaperoning, but we were also dressed up
and candy collecting :)  Because we were "too old," lots of people
made us sing silly songs before they'd fork out candy!

(Funny story--the year I went into town, two houses didn't give us
candy.  One was an old lady who forgot about Halloween, the second was
a cranky man who cursed and yelled at us to get lost.  I wouldn't let
my friend say anything mean about hte lady for her honest mistake, but
we both thought the man should get turned into a frog, for being so
nasty. ;) )

--Fil
Seanette Blaylock - 02 Nov 2004 01:54 GMT
decepticoncommand@hotmail.com (Enfilade) had some very interesting
things to say about Re: [OT] Halloween ettiquette:

>I went out for trick or treat once in university with a friend and her
>neighbour's kids--yes we were chaperoning, but we were also dressed up
>and candy collecting :)  Because we were "too old," lots of people
>made us sing silly songs before they'd fork out candy!

I would have given you two treats ;-) [I do offer treats to chaperones
of young trick-or-treaters. I figure they deserve some reward for
their time and effort :-)]

I saw NO cute little candy mooches last night [sniffle].

Signature

"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be
doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.

:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL
Steve Touchstone - 02 Nov 2004 03:44 GMT
>decepticoncommand@hotmail.com (Enfilade) had some very interesting
>things to say about Re: [OT] Halloween ettiquette:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>I saw NO cute little candy mooches last night [sniffle].

I don't think I've seen any since moving into this apartment 7 years
ago. Probably because this complex is all small one bedroom
apartments, and it's rare for any kids to live here.

My parents get LOTS of elementary aged kids every year, probably
because they live across the street from an elementary school (same
school my two brothers, two sisters, and I all went to as kids). Seems
like all the kids know my Dad, since he's usually out puttering around
in the yard as they go to and from school. I imagine it also helps
that they've lived there since the 60s, and some of today's kids are
the third generation of trick or treaters.
Signature

Steve Touchstone,
faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Rocky (RB)

stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email]
Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html
Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

mlbriggs - 02 Nov 2004 19:36 GMT
>>decepticoncommand@hotmail.com (Enfilade) had some very interesting
>>things to say about Re: [OT] Halloween ettiquette:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> that they've lived there since the 60s, and some of today's kids are
> the third generation of trick or treaters.

I haven' had a "Trick or Treater" in over 20 years.  In the "old days" the
kids used to wax or soap the windows on Halloween.  The soap wasn't much
of a problem, but the wax was hard to get off.MLB
bonbon - 02 Nov 2004 13:49 GMT
>decepticoncommand@hotmail.com (Enfilade) had some very interesting
>things to say about Re: [OT] Halloween ettiquette:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>of young trick-or-treaters. I figure they deserve some reward for
>their time and effort :-)]

Thank you Seanette.  I still go trick-or-treating.  I always put a lot
of time and effort into my costume, sometimes taking up to a month or
more of planning, sewing, etc.  My daughter used to go with me, but
she's moved to Louisiana, and I thought my trick-or-treating days were
over, but night before last, the neighbor kids invited me to go with
them.  As it turns out, there were 8 of us all together, some of them
were fairly young, so I acted as chaperone too.  I must have counted
to 7 at least a hundred times that night. <G>  And had my tail stepped
on  as many also.

This was our first halloween in this neighborhood, and they do
something interesting here.  They call it a candy toss, and at
5:30p.m., 3 or 4 cars/trucks drive slowly down each street (they're
all cul-de-sac or dead end streets) and toss out candy by the hand
fulls to anyone standing out there wearing a costume.  I guess it's
just a 'to get you going' thing.  I thought it was fun though.

-bonbon

>I saw NO cute little candy mooches last night [sniffle].
Sherry - 02 Nov 2004 16:24 GMT
>This was our first halloween in this neighborhood, and they do
>something interesting here.  They call it a candy toss, and at
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> -bonbon

One neighborhood here does kind of a trick-or-treat spin on Christmas. The
whole neighborhood decorates to the nines, and as people drive through to look
at the llights, they hand out candy to the kids. Kids love it, but traffic
through that addition has become a snarled nightmare. I'm sure there's one or
two Scrooges that wish they'd never started it.

Sherry
Steve Touchstone - 02 Nov 2004 03:44 GMT
<snip>
>was really weird for me--but her dad was with us at least.  I think
>it's irresponsible of parents to turn kids out unchaperoned.  In our
>area, parents go with the kids until the kids hit 10 or so.  Also, my
>mom never let me eat candy until she inspected it first.

I remember when my nieces hit that independent age, when my sister was
no longer welcome. She insisted that they had to have adult
supervision, they insisted that she couldn't be seen with them, so she
ended up waiting just out of sight while they went to the door.

>Apples are usually ok, except for the following:  1. Kids prefer candy
>and 2. Parents are sometimes wary of unwrapped treats, homemade goods
>or even apples.  Cans of cola are a better last-minute treat.

The other night, on one of the late night shows, a comedian said when
he ran out of candy last year he started passing out cigarettes. This
year he said he was planning on passing out matches.

<snip>
>(Funny story--the year I went into town, two houses didn't give us
>candy.  One was an old lady who forgot about Halloween, the second was
>a cranky man who cursed and yelled at us to get lost.  I wouldn't let
>my friend say anything mean about hte lady for her honest mistake, but
>we both thought the man should get turned into a frog, for being so
>nasty. ;) )

'nother funny story. In Bakersfield, California, when I was growing up
Dad would plant winter grass just before Halloween every year. This
entailed scalping the bermuda, planting rye grass, and spreading a
layer of steer manure over the top of the seed. Working wonders for
keeping the kiddies off the grass, since everyone knew the lawn was
covered in cow sh*t ;-)
Signature

Steve Touchstone,
faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Rocky (RB)

stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email]
Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html
Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

Cheryl Perkins - 01 Nov 2004 13:14 GMT
> If you aren't celebrating Halloween for whatever reason (religious
> objection? mourning the death of aloved one? ), how do you let the kids know
> *not* to knock on the door, or do you just have to pretend not to be home?

No decorations (yes, some people decorate their houses like they do for
Christmas), no lights visible from the road, in particular, no light in
the porch or by the front door. I went out yesterday (ahh, not
trick-or-treating), and it was suprisingly easy to decide which houses
were participating and which weren't. Darkness in the front door/front
porch/front room area is key.

> Up to what time can you expect people to knock on your door? Does it go all
> night? or is there some sort of accepted time after which you shouldn't be
> disturbed?

Early evening (very early evening) is the big time here. Little kids and
their parents usually go out around dusk. It got dark very early here, and
it was full dark by 6:30 PM, and there were still some trick-or-treaters
out. I wouldn't expect many past 7 or 8 and none past 9.

> If you do answer the door and/or don't give them treats, do you really get
> tricked? What sort of trick is likely to happen?

Very regional, I think. I've never had a problem, and the ones I've heard
about here are more a case of ordinary vandalism happening on Hallowe'en,
really. I've heard about other places where tricks are more common.

> Would an apple been a good substitute for candy (we later realised we had a
> bag of apples in the fridge)?

Kids prefer sweets! A few people give out fruit, but apples are subject to
the usual paranoia about some nutcase sticking needles into them.

> What do you do if you've run out of goodies?

Turn out all the lights.

> And do you reward *effort* in costuming with a decent wad of candy and not
> reward stupid costumes (putting a plastic cowboy hat on is *not* good
> costuming, IMHO) by reducing hte amount of candy? What is the proper amount
> of candy per brat, err, kid anyway?

Some people do. When I was a child, one of our teachers always gave the
best goodies to the small kids in costumes, and merely a token amount,
plus a comment on the lack of costume, to the ones in the early teens who
simply grab one of Mom's pillowcases and pull their hats down over their
faces or whatever.

How much depends on how expensive it is and how fast you are running out.
If you are handing out cheap hard candies, give a handful or double
handful. If it's full-sized chocolate bars, one each. And so on.

> We didn't know any of the brats, err, kids that knocked on our door. They
> weren't the kids from our street. How far do kids travel to get their candy,
> how many houses do they visit, and should they be knocking on complete
> stranger's doors?

We did, but it was a small town! There are two schools of thought on this.
Many people only allow their children to go to selected homes in the
immediate neighbourhood, with, of course, a special visit in costume to
Granny or Auntie if they live in another neighbourhood. Many people figure
'Subdivision X has rich families", pile their kids in the car, and visit
every house in Subdivision X. The older kids - early teens, up to the age
when they decide it's too childish to trick-or-treat, and costume parties
are much more fun - go wherever they want.

> And shouldn't an adult be supervising these kids anyway (at 8:45pm)?

Children up to age 7 or 8 or so, maybe end of primary school age, always
seem to have an adult lurking nearby keeping an eye on things. Sometimes
the adult is also in costume. The older children go around in groups. You
never see one trick-or-treater.

Signature

Cheryl

Bev - 01 Nov 2004 19:40 GMT
> > If you aren't celebrating Halloween for whatever reason (religious
> > objection? mourning the death of aloved one? ), how do you let the kids know
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> --
> Cheryl

We don't get trick or treaters where I live and like Yowie's
Australians, New Zealanders do not get deeply into Halloween. I have no
memories of it and I think it only became noticeable a few years ago.  

My late sister, Myra lived in an area that had a lot of kids and she
loved trick or treaters.   She always bought heaps of lollies (our name
for candy) and when the kids came around she made each one do a little
act before getting the sweets.   Myra was a school teacher and liked
watching the kids in their costumes.

Kids are not encouraged to go out without an adult though.  Our streets
are dangerous at night.   Some larger children have intimidated  the
elderly at times and this is sad.

Bev
Signature

The email of the species is more deadly than the mail.

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 02 Nov 2004 00:14 GMT
> If you aren't celebrating Halloween for whatever reason (religious
> objection? mourning the death of aloved one? ), how do you let the kids know
> *not* to knock on the door, or do you just have to pretend not to be home?

The latter is best, I think - just don't answer the door
(and do not leave a porch-light lit).

> Up to what time can you expect people to knock on your door? Does it go all
> night? or is there some sort of accepted time after which you shouldn't be
> disturbed?

Theoretically, it's supposed to be for younger kids, who are
normally put to bed at a reasonable hour.  As the evening
wears on, you notice the "kids" who turn up being older and
older.  Use your own judgement about "treating" hulking
teen-agers.  You seldom get children after nine P.M., and
most people don't answer the door later than that.

> If you do answer the door and/or don't give them treats, do you really get
> tricked? What sort of trick is likely to happen?

Judging by the U.S., not really - not any more.  (Of course,
it may depend upon how rough the neighborhood in which you
live.)  Fortunately, most kids are too busy trying to amass
as much loot as possible, and tricks take time - however, if
they REALLY want to be mean, they can "toilet-paper" your
trees and shrubbery, or "egg" your house.  (Or "soap" a
window, or write on your cement walk with colored chalk).

> Would an apple been a good substitute for candy (we later realised we had a
> bag of apples in the fridge)?

Used to be, but for some years now, ever since some sicko
gave out apples with embedded razor-blades here in the U.S.,
some parents won't let their kids keep anything not
commercially wrapped.  (Or anything home-made - I seem to
remember an incident of marijuana brownies, back in the
1960's - although I think those donors were more likely
stoned, not deliberately malicious.)

A pity - when I was a kid, I remember wonderful home-made
cookies, ditto fudge.  One neighbor even provided hot-dogs,
one year!  Unfortunately, times have changed, not always for
the better.

> What do you do if you've run out of goodies?

Tell them so.  I live in a "controlled access" building, and
I don't think there are any families with children living
here, but last night I was startled to find a couple of kids
at my apartment door.  They were cute, and I'd have happily
given them treats, but like you, I had none on hand because
I hadn't expected anyone to gain access to the building.

> And do you reward *effort* in costuming with a decent wad of candy and not
> reward stupid costumes (putting a plastic cowboy hat on is *not* good
> costuming, IMHO) by reducing hte amount of candy? What is the proper amount
> of candy per brat, err, kid anyway?

That's all entirely up to the donor!  (But unless the hands
are tiny, it's not the best of ideas to let them help
themselves.)

> We didn't know any of the brats, err, kids that knocked on our door. They
> weren't the kids from our street. How far do kids travel to get their candy,

Depends upon how far they can con someone's parent or older
sibling to drive them, sometimes.

> how many houses do they visit, and should they be knocking on complete
> stranger's doors?

a) As many as they can and b) probably not, in this day and
age, but they do (and always have).

> And shouldn't an adult be supervising these kids anyway (at 8:45pm)?

Some parents aren't very responsible!  (And of course, some
are there, but stay out of sight - at their kid's urging -
unless they're needed.)
Sam Nash - 02 Nov 2004 05:12 GMT
> Australia doesn't do Halloween.
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> know
> *not* to knock on the door, or do you just have to pretend not to be home?
You could just pretend not to be home.  We would have if we had run out of
candy.

> Up to what time can you expect people to knock on your door? Does it go
> all
> night? or is there some sort of accepted time after which you shouldn't be
> disturbed?
My personal preference would be 2:30 PM, but I'm just an old grouch.  We
turned off the porch light at 9:00 PM.

> If you do answer the door and/or don't give them treats, do you really get
> tricked? What sort of trick is likely to happen?
When I was young, it might have been toilet paper in the trees in the yard
or an egg on a house window.  Kids today?  Who knows?

> Would an apple been a good substitute for candy (we later realised we had
> a
> bag of apples in the fridge)?
In the States, it's not a good idea to give substitutes for
manufacturer-wrapped candy.  There have been some sickos who've put razor
blades in apples and/or poisoned homemade (or even store-bought) candy.

> What do you do if you've run out of goodies?
We were going to turn off the porch light but didnt' need to.

> And do you reward *effort* in costuming with a decent wad of candy and not
> reward stupid costumes (putting a plastic cowboy hat on is *not* good
> costuming, IMHO) by reducing hte amount of candy? What is the proper
> amount
> of candy per brat, err, kid anyway?
Depends on how much candy you've got.  It was obvious that we weren't going
to get as many as we expected so the last few kids "hit the mother lode" at
our house.  We started with two pieces per kid.  By 8:00 it was a handful
per kid.  By 8:30 it was a double-handful.  And we've still got candy left!

> We didn't know any of the brats, err, kids that knocked on our door. They
> weren't the kids from our street. How far do kids travel to get their
> candy,
> how many houses do they visit, and should they be knocking on complete
> stranger's doors?
Can't help you there.  We haven't had a "halloween-aged" kid for 20 years or
so!

> And shouldn't an adult be supervising these kids anyway (at 8:45pm)?
IMNSHO, you bet your A$$  there should.  Too much crap happens even in
daylight these days.  I wouldn't let a kid of mine out alone after dark
until they were at least 16.  (make that 18).

> Yowie,
> Clueless
Tanada - 02 Nov 2004 18:42 GMT
First of all, I don't see why Australians should have to go by Merkin
rules.  That being said...it varies, to some extent, by area.  My
in-laws were scandalized that the area we live in had tricks and treats
on Saturday.  Seems that some churches get scandalized by a pagan
celebration on a Sunday.  Works for me.  I got my own problems.

Candy must be individually wrapped, and in the original package.  No
loose wrapping or personally wrapped candy should be given out.  It was
different when I was a brat, but then we only visited friends and
relatives.  I loved going to our aunt and uncles, as one of them gave us
home made taffy, and another one peanuts.  A friend was good for popcorn
balls.  None of this would be considered proper nowadays, no matter how
it was wrapped.  Sigh.

Costumes SHOULD look like some effort was put into them.  Just putting a
pillowcase on one's head is not a costume, just a fashion statement.
rewarding for effort isn't done, though it should be.  Rob rewards for
age and cuteness, but we don't tell the kids that.

If the child is old enough to go out around the neighborhood without a
parent, the child is WAY TOO OLD for trick or treating.  Generally, such
kids don't receive rewards, even if they do as Mike did last year and
steal one of my dresses and go out terrorizing the neighborhood in drag
with all his chest hair hanging over the top of the thing (it was low
cut).

No matter what the age, any kid who pokes a gun in my face and demands
in a bass voice to have the treats, gets whatever is in the bowl.  I'll
call the cops later.

Anyone who doesn't want the little bats and ghouls to come to their door
should turn off all out-door lights.  Barricading the door is also a
good idea.

Slicing the dog on the trick or treaters is just not done and could
cause a law-suit.  So don't do it no matter how tempting.

Treat hours vary, depending upon location.  Here it is usually 6-9 PM,
but it is possible to have them come around both earlier and later.
Personally, I think any parent who takes a little kid out after eight PM
should not only have their head examined, but should be talking to a
therapist.

If you smell smoke and/or see a burning bag that looks like it might
have something in it, do NOT stomp it out.  It is also considered tacky
to remove, then use, the toilet paper hanging from one's trees.

Some people really get into the spirit of the thing and play spooky
music, set up a haunted house, have the door answered by the undead and
so forth.  Personally, I think these people should be either
applauded...or shot.

As the holiday becomes more popular, don't be surprised to see tour
buses pull up and let out mobs of celebrants.  We've had mini-vans pull
up and release as many as twelve of the little monsters at a time.  It
is a terrifying experience to be frantically counting candy while
twenty-four hostile eyes stare intently at your fingers.  Worse is if
one of those sets of eyes drove the mini-van.

For future reference, when you take Cary out (we had a mom with her
four-year-old daughter and four-month-old baby complete in bunny suit
come up to us so that we could admire the little one as well as give a
goodie to the little bumblebee) check all candy and dole them out to
him, one piece at a time.  Otherwise you may get hate mail from his
teachers the next day.  This is extremely difficult, especially when
your child is in the tenth grade.

Just a few thoughts, willing to provide more upon request.

Pam S.
Steve Touchstone - 02 Nov 2004 19:42 GMT
>First of all, I don't see why Australians should have to go by Merkin
>rules.  That being said...it varies, to some extent, by area.  My
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>balls.  None of this would be considered proper nowadays, no matter how
>it was wrapped.  Sigh.

I have fond memories of the little old lady who lived on our street
who handed out home made peanut clusters - another treat which would
be tossed today. ;-((

Now that I think about that little old lady was probably younger than
I am now. LOL
<snip>
>If the child is old enough to go out around the neighborhood without a
>parent, the child is WAY TOO OLD for trick or treating.

When I was in the third or fourth grade, I remember a kid who was told
by his parents that he was too old to go out. He worked out a method
to get treats, anyway. While passing out candy he would throw a steely
into paper bags. (A steely is a steel marble.) Didn't work as well as
he planned, since he got into big trouble after the first couple times
he burst bags.
<snip>
>As the holiday becomes more popular, don't be surprised to see tour
>buses pull up and let out mobs of celebrants.  We've had mini-vans pull
>up and release as many as twelve of the little monsters at a time.  It
>is a terrifying experience to be frantically counting candy while
>twenty-four hostile eyes stare intently at your fingers.  Worse is if
>one of those sets of eyes drove the mini-van.

My parents tell me that it's fairly common in their neighborhood these
days for parents to car pool, park in the school parking lot across
the street, and then make the rounds. Suppose it makes sense with so
many of the kids being bused to school now days.
<snip>
Signature

Steve Touchstone,
faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Rocky (RB)

stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email]
Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html
Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.