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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / January 2007Dilemma with Mango
I wanted to ask all of you advice on something. At the moment we have a divided cat family. Mango is having to live permanently in the outdoor enclosure, and the indoor cats can't use the outdoor enclosure. We're going to be moving in July/August, depending on what we can afford he might be indoors or outdoors. I would love to be able to have my smoochy boy in with me, but since he and Jasmine's boys hit that difficult 12 months-2 years period the proverbial has hit the fan. They were all happily living together until Mango started losing chunks of fur....presumably due to bullying by Congo and Garfield, and possibly Jasmine. Congo and Garfield also bully Moe, and whoever else they feel like. Since they hit the 1 year mark, they have been working out the power balance, but of course Mango, being entire, has taken this far more seriously than the chasing and batting that they practise, and has declared all out war. If it was just a matter of keeping them in separate rooms it would be ok, but Mango reacts to them being in the same house as he by fanatically spraying the door and pulling large chunks of fur out. When he's outdoors, he sprays minimally and stops pulling fur. I know this is power based and not female/sex related as he does this with Jasmine as well, and all the boys show *no* interest in the girls. The arguments usually start this way; (at the moment through the security screen door if I leave it open) Garfield or Congo come to the door/window and stare aggressively at Mango. Mango puffs his fur out, starts growling and staring and slowly walks stiff legged up to the door/window. Congo/Garfield remain sitting, and continue staring at him. Mango attacks the door, everyone goes flying. Usually i intervene before then, so i never actually see whether garfield/Congo stay there, or flee when he attacks. So they usually instigate, as the two brothers are 'top cat' with Congo being Head Boss and Garfield being Supporting Boss. Mango thinsk he is Head Boss and wants to sort these cheeky little buggers out. Is this situation irretrevable?? Of course, a few years down the track Mango will be 'retired' and gradually come back inside, so I will have to solve the problem eventually. Is it worth clipping claws and letting them (under supervision) sort it out between themselves? Or would this just make matters worse and end up with someone being badly hurt? *sigh* I just want my little boy back inside. I do know of many people who have entire studs living happily together, so i think it's just Mango's personality. Any advice would be appreciated. > I wanted to ask all of you advice on something. At the moment we have a > divided cat family. Mango is having to live permanently in the outdoor [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > living happily together, so i think it's just Mango's personality. Any > advice would be appreciated. If I were in your position, I think what I would do is clip all front claws and install several Feliway plugins, clean all the marked areas with Nature's Miracle and then spray those areas with Feliway spray, and maybe put Mango on prozac for a while, and let them all be together. Gradually they will work things out as they grow up. >> I wanted to ask all of you advice on something. At the moment we have a >> divided cat family. Mango is having to live permanently in the outdoor [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > put Mango on prozac for a while, and let them all be together. Gradually > they will work things out as they grow up. That's actually not a bad idea. I hadn't thought of medicating him. He's not happy outside either and cries all the time, but I really feel this is an age thing, as I am having similar, but controllable problems between the others as well. Eg garfield and Congo chasing Moe around, tension between Jasmine and the other girls, Tahzha being insecure and aggro around the others as she's the 'new girl'...all part of a multi cat family, and not involving grievious bodily harm. However Mango, if he was a person, would have several AVO's out against him already :) Thanks for this suggestion, I might have a chat to my vet. >> If I were in your position, I think what I would do is clip all front >> claws and install several Feliway plugins, clean all the marked areas [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > a person, would have several AVO's out against him already :) Thanks for > this suggestion, I might have a chat to my vet. Why not see what happens with just the Feliway first? Maybe you won't need more than that. I thought I would have no end of problems with Eli spraying and fighting here in the house with six other cats, but Feliway alone solved it. I had to use it for about 8 months. Would have kept using it but can no longer afford it since a couple of months ago. There have not been many problems since then. >>> If I were in your position, I think what I would do is clip all front >>> claws and install several Feliway plugins, clean all the marked areas [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > it but can no longer afford it since a couple of months ago. There have > not been many problems since then. I had the same experience with feliway. After using it for a while the cats kind of got used to getting along and didn't need it anymore. Jo >> That's actually not a bad idea. I hadn't thought of medicating him. He's >> not happy outside either and cries all the time, but I really feel this is [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >longer afford it since a couple of months ago. There have not been many >problems since then. Meeee is in Australia and, as far as I'm aware, Feliway is only available from the vet here, so she will have to discuss it with her vet anyway. Tish >>> That's actually not a bad idea. I hadn't thought of medicating him. He's >>> not happy outside either and cries all the time, but I really feel this [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Tish Yes, I think so. I *think* I may be able to access it from an internet store, but there's only one, and their prices are high, so I might see how much my vet charges first. > > Meeee is in Australia and, as far as I'm aware, Feliway is only > > available from the vet here, so she will have to discuss it with her [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > store, but there's only one, and their prices are high, so I might see how > much my vet charges first. I was able to get the Feliway over the counter at the vets, without an appointment. Hope it works. It didn't work with my guys however others have reported better results. Dewi >> > Meeee is in Australia and, as far as I'm aware, Feliway is only >> > available from the vet here, so she will have to discuss it with her [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Dewi Thanks Dewi wortha try anyway huh :) we can get it here in stores in the us but I haven't ever priced it, with all of these good recommendations I might get it for by the front door, when Trudi hears a cat out there she goes berserk, don't ever let anyone tell you females don't mark/spray, Lee > >>> That's actually not a bad idea. I hadn't thought of medicating him. He's > >>> not happy outside either and cries all the time, but I really feel this [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > store, but there's only one, and their prices are high, so I might see how > much my vet charges first. Lol I hope we don't get that happening here, one is bad enough!! I'm just finishing a pair of overalls for him so he can come inside a bit more without me having to follow him around with a cloth all the time... > we can get it here in stores in the us but I haven't ever priced it, with > all of these good recommendations I might get it for by the front door, [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> how >> much my vet charges first. >>> If I were in your position, I think what I would do is clip all front >>> claws and install several Feliway plugins, clean all the marked areas [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > it but can no longer afford it since a couple of months ago. There have > not been many problems since then. Hmm if it's that powerful I migth do that first, and see what happens. As a lot of the aggro seems to be from retaliating to the neutered boy's aggression, the Feliway might calm everyone down. you might also do a search for cat introductions and when you move sort of totally start over, if you do what pat suggests then go to the new house with an intro plan everybody might benefit, Lee > >> I wanted to ask all of you advice on something. At the moment we have a > >> divided cat family. Mango is having to live permanently in the outdoor [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > have several AVO's out against him already :) Thanks for this suggestion, I > might have a chat to my vet. Yes. Absolutely. > you might also do a search for cat introductions and when you move sort of > totally start over, if you do what pat suggests then go to the new house [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > I >> might have a chat to my vet. Maybe a temporary chemical "castration" would work to calm Mango down, using something like Tardak. I heard about this on a rat newsgroup, of all places. Its used on dogs, cats and rats (pet ones) and lasts for months and is not intended to be permanent. Your vet will have some ideas about this option. I also think Pat's ideas sound good too. If you have a verandah, any chance you could enclose it for Mango, using something like orchard netting. It wouldn't be a permanent structure, it would be pretty cheap (you may need to build a gate which would be the most expensive thing) and could be done in a weekend. That way Mango can be closer to everyone and won't feel so left out. Dewi. > Maybe a temporary chemical "castration" would work to calm Mango down, > using something like Tardak. I heard about this on a rat newsgroup, of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Dewi. If I owned this house I would....but as it's a rental there's not a lot I can do. If we were going to be here long term, I'd apply to build something, but as we're only staying for another 6 months it wouldn't be worth it, after the time the paperwork would take. I have heard of a 'non-prescription' use of a feline drug...apparently you can ask the vet for a contraceptive for a queen, then give some to the boy to settle him down....not sure about this as it's risky mucking around with these drugs. I might go the prozac option. Anyway my vet's very good so I might just have to take Mango off to him for a consult about it. Meee, Are these males in question neutered? Rhonda > I wanted to ask all of you advice on something. At the moment we have a > divided cat family. Mango is having to live permanently in the outdoor [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > know of many people who have entire studs living happily together, so i > think it's just Mango's personality. Any advice would be appreciated. > Meee, > > Are these males in question neutered? > > Rhonda I think they are studs. > On 2007-01-22 20:57:12 -0600, Rhonda <san-toki@att.remove.net> said: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Rhonda > I think they are studs. Mango is, for sure, but I don't know about the others. >> On 2007-01-22 20:57:12 -0600, Rhonda <san-toki@att.remove.net> said: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mango is, for sure, but I don't know about the others. Mango is, the others are Jasmine's bunch, who were neutered prior to teenager-dom. Thank Bast or we would all be eaten alive...:) My indoor boys and girls (Jasmine, (ex-stray) her sons Congo, Moe and Garfield are all neutered, the boys were done prior to sexual maturity so should have little to no 'maleness' to irritate Mango. Mango is entire. The boys have become more territorial since hitting the 'puberty age' both with each other and their mum. Mango naturally reacts more strongly to their aggressive behaviours than they do to each other's, both because he is not from their litter, he was introduced to the house as a slightly older kitten (he's 4 months older than them) when they were all kittens, and he is an entire male. > Meee, > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> entire studs living happily together, so i think it's just Mango's >> personality. Any advice would be appreciated. I don't think you can put a tom cat with other cats when he is not fixed. There are so many scents and emotions and hormones -- I think you have to keep them separate if one is not neutered. It will make for a lonely life for Mango, but I don't know what else you could safely do that will over-ride hormones. Rhonda > My indoor boys and girls (Jasmine, (ex-stray) her sons Congo, Moe and > Garfield are all neutered, the boys were done prior to sexual maturity so [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >>>entire studs living happily together, so i think it's just Mango's >>>personality. Any advice would be appreciated. Actually a lot of breeders have two or more tomcats in together. They have to have the right personality for it of course, be together froma young age, and have no girls near when they are together. Most breeders have a neutered male or female in with the tom for company, I was hoping he would just continue on with them, but I think the friction between Jasmine and her growing litter (there was a bit of chasing and bopping going on there for a while) pushed him over the edge. They are all much bigger than he is, being desexed domestic shorthairs, and he seems to feel the need to assert himself. The thing I need to do is to bring his aggression down to a similar level to the boys, so they can sort it out without major injuries. Right now they want to dominate him by chasing with the occasional bap and nip, and he wants to damage them as severely as possible. There is some hope, as he doesn't behave aggressively until they do, so I'm going to try the Feliway etc. You're right, it is a very lonely life, which is why I'm going to do my best to reconcile them. I disagree with the whole 'cats in cages' thing. Inside is ok, but not on their own in cages outside. I might try getting him used to them one at a time, then gradually phase him back in. >I don't think you can put a tom cat with other cats when he is not fixed. >There are so many scents and emotions and hormones -- I think you have to [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >>>>so i think it's just Mango's personality. Any advice would be >>>>appreciated. have more than one friend that has had entire males together for varying reasons, mostly it depends on personalities, space and work of the human, Lee, rooting for you > I don't think you can put a tom cat with other cats when he is not > fixed. There are so many scents and emotions and hormones -- I think you [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > >>>entire studs living happily together, so i think it's just Mango's > >>>personality. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Lee :) I'm sure we'll sort it out. All the wonderful advice on here has given me some hope. Jasmine's lot (like Jasmine herself) are *very* aggressive in behaviour, and especially towards Mango, so I'm hoping that the feliway will bring the aggro down to a dull roar, and they can have a decent little spat and sort out who's boss. I should have seen it coming really, Congo and Mango would always be 'testing' each other in play fights as kittens, so it was going on even then. Except now Mango, with testosterone added, obviously things he can whip Congo. I actually might invest in some of those rubber claw covers and let them sort it out without injury. > have more than one friend that has had entire males together for varying > reasons, mostly it depends on personalities, space and work of the human, [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] >> >>>entire studs living happily together, so i think it's just Mango's >> >>>personality. Any advice would be appreciated. it would seem that when you move house that you are starting with all new territory. This allows you to set mango up first since he seems to be the most upset by everything and then bring the rest over. perhaps making Garfield and Congo last, and perhaps mo second as he also gets the bullying. If I remember correctly Pat had remakarable results in feline harmony when she moved, Lee > I wanted to ask all of you advice on something. At the moment we have a > divided cat family. Mango is having to live permanently in the outdoor [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > know of many people who have entire studs living happily together, so i > think it's just Mango's personality. Any advice would be appreciated. Thats a very good point Lee. It might be worth waiting until the new house, then starting afresh with the Feliway, and possibly a bit of slight sedation for Mango. i feel as though once they get over this obstacle of sorting out who's boss, they'll be alright again. > it would seem that when you move house that you are starting with all new > territory. This allows you to set mango up first since he seems to be the [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >> know of many people who have entire studs living happily together, so i >> think it's just Mango's personality. Any advice would be appreciated. > it would seem that when you move house that you are starting with all new > territory. This allows you to set mango up first since he seems to be the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If I remember correctly Pat had remakarable results in feline harmony when > she moved, Lee Yeah but I think I did the process backwards, the most aggressive kitty (Eli) got moved in last. I did that to (hopefully) throw off his idea about his position in the group, since everyone else was here first. >> it would seem that when you move house that you are starting with all new >> territory. This allows you to set mango up first since he seems to be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (Eli) got moved in last. I did that to (hopefully) throw off his idea > about his position in the group, since everyone else was here first. I see. so Congo and Garfield should come last. and the girls first as they are the submissive ones. > "Pat" <patricia251.catlitter@centurytel.net> wrote >>> If I remember correctly Pat had remakarable results in feline harmony >>> when [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I see. so Congo and Garfield should come last. and the girls first as they > are the submissive ones. Isn't Mango the one you're having the most trouble with? I took a week or so to move everyone so all their smells would get implanted before Eli arrived. >> "Pat" <patricia251.catlitter@centurytel.net> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > so to move everyone so all their smells would get implanted before Eli > arrived. Yes, but he doesn't react aggressively to them until they behave aggressively towards him. He's not naturally aggressive but feels threatened by them so reacts as a stud would (violently) whereas the neuters just give each other a claws-in bop if someone is being aggro. I've been watching them, as I let him wander around on the verandah with me, and he doesn't go nuts until either Congo, Garfield or Jasmine come right up to the security screen and sit down and stare aggressively at him. Then he starts fluffing up, staring at them, growls, then when they still refuse to stop staring, he attacks the screen. I did some research into cat body language, and apparently the stare is used to prevent fights; normally the dominant or challenging cat (A) will attempt to stare the other cat (B) down. If the other cat (B)stares back, they progress to stage 2 of dominance display, walking towards cat B and starting to fluff up. If cat B still doesn't back down, they will attack. Mango knows they are bigger, but as a stud he won't back down until he's thrashed them or been thrashed, and the boys think they can whip him. I've seen Congo and Garfield gang up on the others so I presume they think the two of them could handle him. Mango is the only serious opponent for dominance, as they have already asserted themselves with Jasmine, Tahzha and Moe, and Cougar was never in the running anyway. It's really between Congo and Mango, with Garfield just being Congo's backup. I allowed Congo to assert himself over the others, as no-one was getting hurt, but I'd intervene if he took the chase and bop thing too far and was stressing them out. The trouble started when he felt he'd asserted himself over the lower ranking cats, and started trying to assert himself over Mango. I'll have to put some piccies up so you can see the size of these boys; Congo is like lifting a sack of potatoes, and it's all meat and bone....he's a very big boy. I'm hoping the new house + Feliway+ clipped/covered claws and giving them some space to sort out the pecking order will help. *sigh* these boys.... which is why I would take mango first and let him get his territory first, then mo then the girls, then I would split Garfield and Congo and bring Garfield first so he might be happy getting along when Congo arrives. I would also start with the hormones now and start them in the new house before any cat is moved... as long as mango is unaltered his reaction won't change so you have to change the environment so the others don't start it, Lee > >> "Pat" <patricia251.catlitter@centurytel.net> wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > clipped/covered claws and giving them some space to sort out the pecking > order will help. *sigh* these boys.... the reason I said Garfield and Congo last is because they start it and bully, if the others are there first the bullies will have less ground to stand on, as you said mango doesn't start it but gets most upset, Lee > >> it would seem that when you move house that you are starting with all new > >> territory. This allows you to set mango up first since he seems to be [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I see. so Congo and Garfield should come last. and the girls first as they > are the submissive ones. no I think you did it right, its Garfield and Congo who start it, its mango that gets the most upset, Lee, thinking you did excellent in fact > > it would seem that when you move house that you are starting with all new > > territory. This allows you to set mango up first since he seems to be the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (Eli) got moved in last. I did that to (hopefully) throw off his idea about > his position in the group, since everyone else was here first.
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