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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / January 2007What's Your View?
Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". I always thought it would be fun if we posted a "view" from the window we look out. I normally wouldn't do this right now, because there's nothing uglier than Oklahoma's landscape in January. But I looked up from the computer and saw something really startling, and stuck my head out the back door for a pic. http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/coyote.jpg That is a coyote. Just casually ambling through the yard. What's even more disturbing, is there were three of them, two more behind him, but by the time I got the camera ready again, they took off west over the hill. I guess the winter weather has made them hungry and more bold. Just wanted to share that. It just chills me to think if Boots or Frank were out there. Sherry > Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry Yep, that's ole Latrans all right. As a person owned by cats, I find myself having an atypical dislike for a wild animal who is just trying to get by like the rest of us. Anyway, your area prolly doesn't have enough tree cover to make cats safe from coyotes. We have lots of coyotes but cat loss to coyotes here is not common, although TOO common, because we have lots of trees and brush. Dogs are in more danger here in Connecticut. When Bear and I have seen a coyote on our walk, the coyote did not seem at ALL interested in a hundred-pound dog and a large man but I wouldn't have liked to have Bear out there alone. Our cats are indoor-only because Mickey had four of them before we lived together and she never let them out. I inherited WooToo from my mom when she passed away and WooToo doesn't go outside because then she would not have the services of her staff for minutes at a time. Also, it might be cold. Or hot or windy. There probably wouldn't be a nice chair, etc. Will in New Haven > Yep, that's ole Latrans all right. As a person owned by cats, I find > myself having an atypical dislike for a wild animal who is just trying > to get by like the rest of us. Oh, me too, Will. I love to watch wildlife, I don't even mind the yard full of raccoons at night. They're even comical, they look like little teenage hoodlums. But I'd really rather the coyotes hung out somewhere else. I read once exactly how a coyote kills prey, a real graphic description, and I just can't bear to think about losing a cat to one. These cats will probably ask to outside when spring gets here. I always let them out in the yard anytime I'm going to be out there too. But in the winter, they're just like WooToo. If Out doesn't have central heat, forget it. Sherry > > Yep, that's ole Latrans all right. As a person owned by cats, I find > > myself having an atypical dislike for a wild animal who is just trying > > to get by like the rest of us. > Oh, me too, Will. I love to watch wildlife, I don't even mind the yard > full of raccoons at night. They're even comical, they look like little [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the winter, they're just like WooToo. If Out doesn't have central heat, > forget it. You're lucky about that! And maybe in the spring, the coyotes won't be quite so lean and hungry, and will find prey elsewhere. <shudder> You're right to be worried about it! Joyce > > Yep, that's ole Latrans all right. As a person owned by cats, I find > > myself having an atypical dislike for a wild animal who is just trying [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > else. I read once exactly how a coyote kills prey, a real graphic > description, If I described how Feather(RB) killed mousies, you might not like it either. Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. Lions don't hate zebra. You can see a different, and far more frightening, facial expression on a lion fighting another lion than on a lion taking down some "groceries." For that matter, Feather was much fiercer in his demeanor toward other cats, although he didn't actually fight them, than he was toward mice. Lions killing buffalo, which often kill lions, or driving hyena off a kill (or vice versa) have the "fighting face" and not the "grocery face." > and I just can't bear to think about losing a cat to one. > These cats will probably ask to outside when spring gets here. I always > let them out in the yard anytime I'm going to be out there too. But in > the winter, they're just like WooToo. If Out doesn't have central heat, > forget it. Wootoo says, No central heat, no servants, no always-full food and water bowls, no Animal Planet on all day, no bottom dresser drawer pulled out and lined with fluffy, no carpet, no bed, good heavens, NO COMPUTER CHAIR. Will in New Haven > Sherry > Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is > no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. Lions [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > or driving hyena off a kill (or vice versa) have the "fighting face" > and not the "grocery face." LOL - "grocery face", I like that. I'm sure I look more evil having a fight with an indifferent and/or rude tele-service person than I do biting into a piece of chicken. :) (OK, I didn't *kill* the chicken - details, details.) Joyce >> Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is >> no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > rude tele-service person than I do biting into a piece of chicken. :) > (OK, I didn't *kill* the chicken - details, details.) Just as a matter of interest (I am not a vegetarian) if you had to kill the chicken/sheep/cow yourself, would you still eat meat? Please all answer honestly. Tweed > Just as a matter of interest (I am not a vegetarian) if you had to kill the > chicken/sheep/cow yourself, would you still eat meat? Please all answer > honestly. > > Tweed Yep. Have done so in the past, will probably do so in the future. It's not pleasant, but does bring a whole new respect for the lives of those lower than us in the food chain. > Just as a matter of interest (I am not a vegetarian) if you had to kill the > chicken/sheep/cow yourself, would you still eat meat? Please all answer > honestly. <popping in again after another long absence> As a matter of fact, I did own chickens and kill them to eat. It was (and still is) my heart-felt conviction that unless I am willing to kill an animal for food, I have no right to eat meat. It's sort of a karmic responsibility thing for me. And even though I currently own no food animals (due, primarily, to my disabilities making it impossible to care properly for them), I still prefer to fill my freezer with "Sue's lamb", "Carol's cow" and "George's pig" as much as possible. And should we get to a point where we have to butcher to live, I would certainly do it. Deborah who notes that it still wasn't easy, and chickens are by far the easiest, both for the process of killing them, and the emotional load of killing them. The cute factor is terribly difficult. And chickens just aren't cute. Plus, you know that if they were big enough, they'd eat YOU. You can see it in their eyes! Lifetime total cats to date = 36 Current clowder = 8: Fearless (16), Princess (15), Smokey (14), Jezebel (12), Cinder (11), Miss Bitty Kitty Who Isn't (4), Emma (9 months), Shane (9 months) >>> Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is >>> no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Tweed Absolutely. My parents and their parents back forever had to and did. All I've ever done was catch and clean numerous fish and clean a few pheasant. But still just as happy I don't have to. Jo > >> Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is > >> no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Tweed Chickens, yes. We have done that before. In fact, I feel better about eating our own chickens. They had a pretty good life, spent their days running around and doing chicken things, and got killed humanely as possible. You can't say that for the poor commercially raised chickens that end up in a nice clean meat tray at the supermarket. I don't know about sheep or cows. I don't like beef much anyway, and I don't think I could kill one. Sherry >>> Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is >>> no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Tweed Yes. But my parents brought us up in a self sufficient way. I believe that if everyone had to grow everything they ate, as in past days, we would have very little wastage of anything, much more respect for each life in general and each other, etc etc.....whether this is possible with today's lifestyles is questionable however.... > >> Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is > >> no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Tweed Never anything I raised or someone else raised. Certainly no one I named. I have, however, killed and eaten (part of) quail, pheasants, squirrels, deer, elk and one moose. I feel no remorse, In their home woods and with no reason to trust me, they were fair game. In all senses of the word. I wouldn't kill animals that had been habituated to humans or just held for the hunter. Actually, I have never eaten only part of a quail. They are delicious and so tiny. I don't hunt anymore but I don't feel bad that I did. If I felt the urge now, it would be to hunt ducks and maybe geese, to give Bear a chance to use his skills. He is of very good hunting stock. He finds tennis balls adequate for his needs and that suits me. Will in New Haven -- "If the bear came by I would die for you" - In the eyes of Ralf, Stupid, BD, Chopper, Sonny, Snowball and Bear and every other worthwhile dog I have ever met. > > >> Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is > > >> no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Will in New Haven Oh dear. Someone stop me before I tell this story again, LOL. My DH used to bird-hunt *many* years ago when we were young. I liked quail, too. But he also used to hunt dove. They're not so good, dark meat. But anyway. Once he shot a dove and it fell. Its mate swooped down to the ground, huddled beside the dead dove, and stretched its wing out to cover her. We found out later they mate for life. The gun went into the closet and never came out again for hunting. Sherry > Oh dear. Someone stop me before I tell this story again, LOL. My DH > used to bird-hunt *many* years ago when we were young. I liked quail, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cover her. We found out later they mate for life. The gun went into the > closet and never came out again for hunting. Sherry, OMG! Oh, I kinda wish I would have missed this post. That is so incredibly sad. So touching too. I'll think about it all day. I'm so glad the gun was put away. I can't believe the dove spread its wings to cover. This is why I can't read those Chicken Soup for the Pet Owners books, everything is so darn touching, rips out your heart. I have to tell a story too. Driving to work one day on a busy street in Seattle -- cars were stopped and I could see a male duck wandering around on the street. The car in the lane beside me got impatient and took off. I saw the female duck go under his tire, she was dead. The male duck would not leave the street and more cars were coming. I got out of my car and waved my hands like a maniac to stop lanes of traffic, then chased the male duck until he got off the street. Last I saw him he was standing in the parking lot of the gas station, not knowing what to do. Later, I wished I could have scooped her body out of the street so that he could understand. Ducks mate for life, too. I cried all the way to work. Rhonda > > >> Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is > > >> no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Will in New Haven DH always the said the most fun part about bird hunting was watching the dog having such a good time. We had an old German shorthair pointer, Sam. Sam lived to go hunting. He wasn't very good at it, he was way too fat (we over-fed animals even back then). His second-favorite thing was digging holes in the yard. He loved that next best to hunting. Sherry > Just as a matter of interest (I am not a vegetarian) if you had to kill the > chicken/sheep/cow yourself, would you still eat meat? Please all answer > honestly. Since this is hypothetical, I don't know exactly how it would feel. However, I have the feeling that if there were plenty of vegetables, grains, and other non-meat foods to eat, I would most likely become a vegetarian if I had to kill an animal to eat it. Not logical, and it's contradictory considering that I do eat meat, but there you have it. I suspect I feel this way mostly because I'm not used to it. If meat were the only source of food and I was starving, I imagine I'd get over my hesitation pretty quick. Yes, it would turn my stomach at first, and I would find it upsetting, but I wouldn't allow that to cause me to starve to death. Survival instincts would take over, I'm quite sure. I also think I'd have an easier time killing a chicken than a cow or sheep. Don't expect me to come up with a logical reason for that either - this is just how I feel about it. Why? Maybe because they're mammals and therefore more like myself? Or maybe because they're bigger and harder to kill, and therefore I would have to spend more time on it? I'm sure the job of slaughter is one that I would want to get over with as quickly as possible. Joyce > Just as a matter of interest (I am not a vegetarian) if you had to kill the > chicken/sheep/cow yourself, would you still eat meat? Please all answer > honestly. That's the only kind of meat I really want to eat... Something that comes from a supermarket is probably from a factory farm, pumped full of colour and preservatives and antibiotics and from an animal raised in a hellish box. No thanks. Something that my family raises itself, we know what it was like when it was alive. My dad lets his cattle range, and doesn't drug them unless they really need something to recover from an illness, and kills them humanely as possible. Now that I live in a city, I buy meat from farmers' markets where I know it was raised by people like my dad, and I only buy free-range eggs. I eat a serving of meat maybe once or twice a day. DP meanwhile has given up meat entirely. --Fil > > Just as a matter of interest (I am not a vegetarian) if you had to kill the > > chicken/sheep/cow yourself, would you still eat meat? Please all answer [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > --Fil It's funny how you can lose the taste for meat. I still like chicken & turkey & white pork, but beef just doesn't taste good anymore. I could probably adjust to a vegetarian diet pretty easily. >> > Just as a matter of interest (I am not a vegetarian) if you had to kill >> > the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > turkey & white pork, but beef just doesn't taste good anymore. I could > probably adjust to a vegetarian diet pretty easily. I'd have a hard time, because I'm definitely a carnivore. Although I eat more chicken than anything else, I love beef. However, I'd have a hard time killing an animal, so I don't really know what I'd do. I hope I never have to find out. Joy > Just as a matter of interest (I am not a vegetarian) if you had to kill the > chicken/sheep/cow yourself, would you still eat meat? Please all answer > honestly. > > Tweed I'm vegetarian so my answer is no. However I definitely think that quickly killing your own animals on your own property (or having someone competent doing the job for you) is significantly better than having animals slaughtered at the abattoir. So it's a better option than buying meat from the shops. I wonder if it is possible to buy meat that has been prepared this way, rather than abattoir slaughtered meat. Dewi > I wonder if it is possible to buy meat that has been prepared this way, > rather than abattoir slaughtered meat. My dad's neighbour has his own small abbatoir, but I think that's different from some factory type deal that has mechanized it all. Basically it's a stone building where he keeps the equipment and can contain the mess and can refrigerate something as large as a cow carcass. Meat acquired through small butcher operations like this is then sold by the farmers at the market in downtown Halifax. If I'm cooking meat, that's where it's coming from. I'll make only rare exceptions, such as buying extra ribs when I have guests coming over. The other option is: My dad has beef and pork. His brother has lamb and chickens. So, he gives his brother some beef and pork, and his brother gives him lamb and chicken in return. They both get fresh, hand-raised meat that way. Also, because a cow carcass is so big, my dad sells half of it to some friends of his in the city. Otherwise we'd be eating beef for like 2 years. If you knew a farmer you could possibly hammer out a deal like this to split some fresh meat. --Fil > Also, because a cow carcass is so big, my dad sells half of it to some > friends of his in the city. Otherwise we'd be eating beef for like 2 > years. > If you knew a farmer you could possibly hammer out a deal like this to > split some fresh meat. I used to belong to an organic farm's veggie box delivery deal, where I'd get fresh veggies once a week. They also raised sheep and would slaughter a few of them each year. You could buy half a lamb, which is a lot of meat. Too much for me to store in my freezer, but if I had a few people to go in on it with me, I might've considered it. A friend of mine used to get it and we had several wonderful lamb dishes at her place. This friend likes to say, "It's good to know who you're eating." :) I wish they'd done the same with chickens, because chicken is a staple of my diet, much more so than mammal meat. However, there are some local farms that sell free-range chicken in a few grocery stores nearby. Now that I'm working full-time, I can afford to buy the more expensive, higher quality meat that had a happier life as a living being. Joyce > My dad's neighbour has his own small abbatoir, but I think that's > different from some factory type deal that has mechanized it all. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > --Fil I was actually thinking about buying it for the cats. I don't like commercial pet food due to the abattoir slaughtering reason. They also put just about anything in there such as foals (as I saw on a news report recently). A friend of mine mentioned that the parents of a work colleague raise their own cattle for food. When they kill the cow/ bull/ steer they take it from the others, keep it calm and then shoot it in the head. My friend was horrified when I mentioned about buying meat from them, and couldn't understand why that was a more ethical choice. Mean time she goes to the butcher to buy bones for her dogs and goes fishing with her boyfirend! Really I'd prefer it if my cats could be vegetarian, but I've read so much negative stuff about it. Dewi > Really I'd prefer it if my cats could be vegetarian, but I've read so > much negative stuff about it. I read about this too, particularly that cats need a certain dietary component found only in meat. While it's possible for humans to make a choice and to survive perfectly healthy without animal products, it's not possible for cats to make that choice or to remain healthy without meat in their diets somehow. They're obligate carnivores; it's what's healthiest and most natural for them. DP is a vegetarian and, while occasionally shocked at the bitties' proclivities to hunt and devour smaller living things (he certainly didn't teach his "kids" that!) he understands that their needs and nature are different from his. --Fil > > Really I'd prefer it if my cats could be vegetarian, but I've read so > > much negative stuff about it. > They're obligate carnivores; it's what's healthiest and most natural > for them. Oh I know this and hence why may cats aren't vegetarian. I am trying to work out practical and affordable alternatives to abattoir slaughtered meat. The most practical at this stage looks to be roo mince, but it's far from ideal, it may even be worse for all I know (the kangaroos are hunted). The cats do love the it though. Dewi. >> > Really I'd prefer it if my cats could be vegetarian, but I've read so >> > much negative stuff about it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Dewi. roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. The problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations applied to it, and has a risk of potentially fatal parasites that may or may not be killed by cooking, depending on species and life cycle. Food grade roo mince is the safest option, although it may or may not be humanely killed, depending on the person who hunted it. If you can find out where a company sources it, you might be able to make a better choice. Shooting the roos or farming them is generally more humane than hunting with dogs. > roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. The > problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations applied to it, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you might be able to make a better choice. Shooting the roos or farming them > is generally more humane than hunting with dogs. I didn't think about them using dogs for hunting. Eeek! What a horrible way to go. I guess it's back to good ol' Whiskas for the time being. It's cheaper at the very least. One of my oldies will continue with the mince as it helps him maintain his weight. I did wonder about parasites. Most cats I've seen who eat roo mince seem pretty healthy though, so it mustn't be that common. Dewi >> roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. >> The problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Dewi Using dogs to hunt roos seems exceedingly stupid to me, for the dog's safety! The local vet here told me that they get several cases A DAY where someone rushes in their partially disemboweled dog that has been attacked by a roo. The dogs go chasing after the roos and the roo will just grab the dog in it's front paws, stand on it's tail and disembowel the dog with the rear feet. Have you ever seen the claws on those things?!?! Another thing roos do is lure dogs into water then hold them down to drown them. Personally, I would never let my dog near a roo, let alone use it to hunt them.  SignatureBritta Purring is an automatic safety valve device for dealing with happiness overflow. Check out pictures of Vino at: http://picasaweb.google.com/badwilson >>> roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. >>> The problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > them. Personally, I would never let my dog near a roo, let alone use it > to hunt them. Absolutely. It is very stupid, but the professional pig hunters also do a bit of roo hunting on the side, and use their pigging dogs. However it's very inefficient as you can only get a small number of animals, it takes too long, and you can lose a dog. I *think* (not a lot of the info is published on this as it's a fairly new industry) that this is an uncommon practise and not used by the commercial buyers, although a 'hobby hunter' may occasionally sell them a few, I *think* the majority is harvested with a helicopter flyover and good marksman, which, I belive, is quite humane in most cases. As I said, I have had trouble finding reliable info that's not skewed to the bleeding heart's or the roo meat industry's goals. > >> roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. > >> The problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > -- > Britta I know a guy who hunts wild pigs, and is constantly telling me about losing dogs to the pigs. I just want to scream and say PLEASE! Don't tell me those stories! I guess wild pigs are pretty viscious. I'm learning a lot about roos here. I never dreamed they were mean. Sherry > > >> roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. > > >> The problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Sherry Neither animal is viscious or mean for defending herself or himself. Neither is the dog for hunting as its heritage and its training dictates. It is, in this case, only man that is vile. I am NOT anti-hunting. I don't mind using dogs to track or retrieve game. Bear wishes I would shoot some ducks for him but I have mentioned the cold water and icy wind, so he lets me slide on that. Sending dogs to kill animals is both inhumane to the animals, who suffer greatly, and dangerous for our buddies the dogs. When we NEEDED their help to kill game animals, it was all we could do. Now we should stop it. Unless someone wants to close with the boar himself and kill it with a blade he should use the dogs to find it, which is only moderately dangerous, and shoot it. Will in New Haven -- "Never try to outstubborn a cat." - Robert Heinlein "I am not stubborn, Mr. Heinlein, I am just in charge." - Feather > > > >> roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. > > > >> The problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Will in New Haven By "viscous" what I intended to convey is "the ability to inflict serious injury". Not intent. I have no earthly idea what is involved in pig hunting. I don't want to know. I can't believe people put their dogs in harm's way like that. Sherry >> > >> roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. >> > >> The problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > "Never try to outstubborn a cat." - Robert Heinlein > "I am not stubborn, Mr. Heinlein, I am just in charge." - Feather That's what they do. IMO it's archaic. Its an unfortunate part of australia's culture. >> >> roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. >> >> The problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Sherry Yes, it's pretty awful, both for pigs and dogs. Not sure why they still do it, surely there's a better way. And roos aren't as pretty as they look, are they :) >> roo mince is very good for them, especially with weight regulation. The >> problem is that roo mince for pet food has less regulations applied to [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Dewi Yes I've been trying to work it out, as there's also a lot of scaremongering from the 'Don't kill any native animals EVER regardless of the population boom and subsequent starvation of hundreds due to lack of food/water' brigade. Which is really stupid as roo farming is miles better for our fragile ecosystem than sheep or cows. Or goats. Or camels.....anyway I think I will get back on the bike so to speak with the researching as the health benefits are too good to waste. I don't think many people use dogs any more, as it's too inefficient, and much easier to use a chopper to fly over and shoot. And those guys are brilliant marksmen so it's, in most cases I believe, a very fast humane death. I'm not sure whether anyone is farming them as such yet, or whether it's still just harvesting from excess wild populations. Anyway if I find out more I'll let you know. I have to say, I noticed dramatic differences in all my cats when they were on it; no weight loss in lactating mums, amazing kitten growth, great muscle tone, all round health etc, and weight loss on the chubbier cats. Also buying it in bulk is cheaper, when you break it down, than tins, as you get more protein for your dollar. > DP is a vegetarian and, while occasionally shocked at the bitties' > proclivities to hunt and devour smaller living things (he certainly > didn't teach his "kids" that!) he understands that their needs and > nature are different from his. I grew up with indoor/outdoor cats so, though I'm a vegetarian, I can't fdeel shocked about prey behaviour. I'll admit I'm so cold-hearted I don't even feel sorry for the prey. I just grew up viewing small rodents and birds as natural prey animals. SignatureMarina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/ Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki > > DP is a vegetarian and, while occasionally shocked at the bitties' > > proclivities to hunt and devour smaller living things (he certainly [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ > and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki You can't take the predator out of the cat, it's hardwired into their nature. At heart, they're mighty hunters, built for silence, and speed, even when house-cat sized. So it's just as well not to try. =o) Nature is not always kind and benevolent, especially to hoofed mammals. The worst Nina has ever done is "kill" the toilet paper, and assorted innocent drinking straws. I don't think she's even seen a mouse in her life, and probably only consider it as a 'toy' rather than food if she ever saw one. If she tried to hunt it, she wouldn't have a clue of what to do if she managed to kill it. She understands the concept of the stealthy wait and the perfectly timed pounce because she uses them on her poor mama. Francesca might be a bit more able as a huntress--she certainly watches birds and squirresl out the window with interest. I have to admit, I'm not a vegetarian. And I wouldn't dare try to kill anything the size of a cow or even a chicken, as I think I'd only make a mess of it and cause the animal pain and suffering if I tried. Living in an urban center, I simply don't have any farmer friends who can give me fresh meat. I did try feeding the cats a raw meat diet when Nina was a baby, and almost went broke even at costco prices. Nor did I get a really big charge from mixing up the goop. Sorry, I've got rent and bills to pay and retirement to save up for. I feed my girls Science Diet. Melissa > If you knew a farmer you could possibly hammer out a deal like this to > split some fresh meat. I wish I knew a farmer and could get meat for the cats this way, but I live in the city and always have. I try to look for organic meat in the shops, but they don't always have it, and it's very expensive when they do have it. There is no such thing as organic chicken in Finnish stores. I mostly try to buy beef, since I understand that cows are treated pretty well in this country, and avoid pork, since pigs are not. SignatureMarina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/ Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki >> If you knew a farmer you could possibly hammer out a deal like this to >> split some fresh meat. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > mostly try to buy beef, since I understand that cows are treated pretty > well in this country, and avoid pork, since pigs are not. Do you have shops that sell kosher chicken? That is one thing I miss from living back east. The chickens at the kosher markets were much better than the average commercial chicken. So were the ones at the Amish market. Jo > I'm vegetarian so my answer is no. However I definitely think that > quickly killing your own animals on your own property (or having > someone competent doing the job for you) is significantly better than > having animals slaughtered at the abattoir. So it's a better option > than buying meat from the shops. I'm a definite carnivore, and if I got hungry enough, I'd kill my own meat. But since I've never done it, or cleaned any animal bigger than a fish, I think I'd need to learn how to do it properly first, unless of course I was stranded on an island or something with no supermarkets and no skilled butchers. > I wonder if it is possible to buy meat that has been prepared this way, > rather than abattoir slaughtered meat. In Newfoundland, there are people who have local licenses to slaughter animals and prepare the meat for sale. They also will cut up moose for hunters (although they don't actually hunt the moose!). It's been in the news a bit because they don't have the federal licenses of the big boys in the business, which means any local animals that are processed this way may not be able to be shipped out of the province. Nevertheless, I think most if not all of them are competant and clean, and I've certainly bought and eaten meat that's been produced by these people. I rather think (although I don't know for sure) that whether the butcher goes to the farm or the farmer brings the animals to the slaughterhouse rather depends on the number and size of the animals in question. I know that some years ago, when a friend's family were raising turkeys, the slaughtering, cleaning and packaging were all done on the farm. I don't think this always happens with larger animals. SignatureCheryl > Just as a matter of interest (I am not a vegetarian) if you had to kill the > chicken/sheep/cow yourself, would you still eat meat? Please all answer > honestly. I don't eat meat, but if I did, I still couldn't kill it myself. Coming from a long line of town-dwellers, I don't think any of my closest ancestors did, either. I wish the cats could get their own food. ;) SignatureMarina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/ Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki >>> Predation is rarely pretty. One thing, though, is that there is >>> no malice in it. Cats don't posture that mice are evil infidels. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Tweed Yes, I grew up dirt poor and we bred chickens for food. I haven't ever slaughtered a cow, but I do like steak occasionally (although I only eat red meat about once ever 1 - 2 months or so). Hugs, CatNipped > Just wanted to share that. It just chills me to think if Boots or Frank > were out there. Wow. That is scary. I might snap a picture when it's lighter outside, but I think you've all seen the enclosure by now. :) SignatureMarina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/ Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki > Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Just wanted to share that. It just chills me to think if Boots or Frank > were out there. My understanding is that coyotes are cowards and scavengers. Fond of small rodents or rabbits or other game that doesn't fight back. Will eat garbage, leftovers of other animals kills, etc. But I wouldn't bet my cat on that it the coyote is hungry. Jo > > Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > rodents or rabbits or other game that doesn't fight back. Will eat garbage, > leftovers of other animals kills, etc. They do eat anything available, but that includes taking some deer. Any animal that will take on a deer is dangerous to a cat. Well, a really BIG predator, such as the grey wolf, might ignore a cat in favor of something more filling but coyotes eat cats. They just have a hard time getting to them if there are trees and brush. > But I wouldn't bet my cat on that it the coyote is hungry. That would be prudent. Will in New Haven > Jo > Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry Yikes! >> Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Yikes! Is it the mating season for coyotes? There was a lot of screaming like a cat fight going on right outside my house a couple of days ago. I checked that both mine were in - they were. I went outside to check what cats were killing each other. It was foxes, I stood beside my car on my drive and the dog fox shot past me looking behind him. I guess the vixen wasn't quite ready! I could have touched him, only about 12 inches away. Foxes are much braver here when it's mating season. The males are out and about all the time, even in the daytime. This is a serious worry for us poultry keepers. Mr Fox: Someone just let their chickens out before they went to work and it's still a bit dark! Yummy. time of day. I see chickens out in the daytime when I'm looking for Mrs Fox. I need chickens/: so I ate most of them sez Mr F Tweed > Is it the mating season for coyotes? There was a lot of screaming like a > cat fight going on right outside my house a couple of days ago. I checked > that both mine were in - they were. snipped> > Tweed I think it's pretty close, Tweed. I've heard before that their mating season is around February, and that's when they are most active. Sherry >>> Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". >>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Tweed It is extremely cold and icy making food more scarce. Oklahoma was totally slammed with bad weather this last week. >>>> Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". >>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > It is extremely cold and icy making food more scarce. Oklahoma was > totally slammed with bad weather this last week. The coyotes need only one thing. A piece of lead in their ear. Same with foxes here. When they come looking to kill our stock, I mean. I have no problem with foxes in the countryside, catching rabbits. When they target my chickens I have to have a severe word with them. More than severe really - you kill my chickens - then I kill you via Foxman - whose gun is alway itching since a fox got into his pen and killed 200 and I lost almost all my chickens to a fox in the daytime in 96. I've never forgotten how my lovely cockerel tried to protect his hens. He crawled towards me but he was so bruised and damaged that he died during the night. There was no sign of it outwardly. His feathers looked fine. Looking beneath them his whole body was one blue/black bruise. Foxes. Pfff. Vermin. Tweed *shiver* after yesterday, I'm so glad we don't have any of those here..... > Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry Sherry - your landscape looks very much like ours. I can't remember where you are from? I admire the coyotes their ability to survive but can't stand the thought of them hunting cats. Ugh. Susan M Otis and Chester > Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry > Sherry - your landscape looks very much like ours. I can't remember where > you are from? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Susan M > Otis and Chester Oklahoma. Honest, it's really a pretty view in the summer. That area used to be a vegetable garden, but last year we got lazy and sowed the whole thing in wildflowers. It's so ugly now. I feel the same way about you re: the coyotes. They're classed as the lowest of the low, vermin to be shot on sight. But I don't allow coyote hunters on my land, nor deer hunters or any other kind, not ever. Sherry > Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry My girls are inside cats for their own protection. I'm not necessarily worried about coyotes, living in a very suburban area. Strange people would be more of a threat, although I don't live in a 'bad' neighborhood. I simply could not stand to think of anyone killing either of my girls, or of their dying in pain and terror. It's also to protect them from cars, fights with other cats, and from feline leukemia, which is alas, rather common in my area. Sometimes, I feel bad about keeping them in when the weather is nice, but they're used to being in, and that's where they'll say. Melissa That was a great picture. I would be shocked to see something like that out the window. Do they make Purina Coyote Chow that you could toss out in the field? :) Rhonda > Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry > That was a great picture. I would be shocked to see something like that > out the window. > > Do they make Purina Coyote Chow that you could toss out in the field? :) > > Rhonda Ha! I imagine it would be labeled "Acme Coyote Chow", LOL. Sherry > Or, an alternate title, "Why My Cats Don't Go Out Anymore". > > I always thought it would be fun if we posted a "view" from the > window we look out. I can take you up on this now. It's not a window, but the door from my bedroom to the enclosure. Thought I'd show you all the pretty snow we got the last few days - I call this type of snow that clings to everything and outlines it in white 'lace snow.' I got to try out the Snow mode on my camera, too! Oh, and this is why my cats still go out. ;) http://tinyurl.com/2daanm http://tinyurl.com/2xurd8 http://tinyurl.com/23c2aj SignatureMarina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/ Pics at http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o185/frankiennikki/ http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki
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