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tanada - 12 Nov 2006 23:47 GMT
Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
going to get Honor declawed or send her to a shelter.  After hearing Rob and
I on the subject of de-claw, there was no way Jim was going to let his mom
mutilate her, and he loves his little tuxedo girl and was not going to let
her go to a shelter.  So Honor is now living here.

When Jim first got Honor, she lived with us until his mom decided that she
liked the cat and asked for her to live at Jim's apartment.  While his mom
has threatened to de-claw her on a regular basis for the three years that
she lived with them, I really don't think that she would have done it if it
weren't for Jim's sister, who won't have a clawed cat in her house.

May I ask you all to join us in welcoming Honor back to her home and in
sending dirty litter offerings to Jim's mom and sister for even thinking of
mutilating that poor little girl's feet?

Pam S.
Jo Firey - 12 Nov 2006 23:56 GMT
Heck, most six years old I've know deserve the occasional scratch.  But I'm
thinking Honor will be happier with your crew anyway.

Jo

> Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from
> his mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Pam S.
mlbriggs - 13 Nov 2006 00:24 GMT
> Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
> mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Pam S.

Yeah!  I'll even save a bunch to send.  Purrs for wellbeing of all
concerned.   MLB
Dewi - 13 Nov 2006 01:25 GMT
When I was six I remember getting scratched frequently by the family
cats, and my parents thought nothing of it. Not to imply that my
parents were negligent, as they definitely weren't. De-clawing or
dumping a cat at the pound seems an extreme response to cat scratching,
it would be better to teach the 6 yo how to not annoy the cat!

However Honor will have a great life with you. Litter box offerings to
that daft woman who has taught that 6yo boy that its okay to ditch your
animals when they become annoying.

Dewi.

> Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
> mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Pam S.
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Nov 2006 02:03 GMT
> When I was six I remember getting scratched frequently by the family
> cats, and my parents thought nothing of it. Not to imply that my
> parents were negligent, as they definitely weren't. De-clawing or
> dumping a cat at the pound seems an extreme response to cat scratching,
> it would be better to teach the 6 yo how to not annoy the cat!

Same here. My parents wouldn't have considered declawing a cat. I do
remember my father occasionally yelling at us if we got up in a dog
or cat's face a little too much, especially if our own faces were
vulnerable. They didn't want us to be scratched in the eyes or bitten
on the nose. But they didn't get bent out of shape if we got scratched
on the hands or legs, etc. It's a good lesson for kids about their pet's
limits of tolerance for having their tail pulled and so on.

I think when parents flip out and dump an animal because little Junior
got scratched on the arm, they teach the kid not only that animals are
disposable, but also that the child is overly fragile. That'll warp a
kid, too.

Joyce
Kreisleriana - 13 Nov 2006 14:02 GMT
> > When I was six I remember getting scratched frequently by the family
> > cats, and my parents thought nothing of it. Not to imply that my
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Joyce

My parents *did* declaw a cat.  We had a kind of deranged cat when I
was a kid-- he attacked bare feet, and slashed open my little
brother's foot.  My father offered me the clear choice-- either have
him declawed, or PTS.  I was only eleven, and couldn't really oppose
them.  He was declawed.  It didn't seem to affect him badly, but I
would never do it again.

Theresa
Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh

Make Levees, Not War
Shiral - 13 Nov 2006 02:48 GMT
> When I was six I remember getting scratched frequently by the family
> cats, and my parents thought nothing of it. Not to imply that my
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Dewi.

Well said! Shoot, I don't tease my girls, but I still get an odd,
accidental scratch here and there. But I'd never consider declawing
either of them. If our family cat ever scratched me when I was growing
up, I had it coming, as I probably earned it through teasing dear old
Luna. My mother certainly wouldn't have had her declawed on that basis.
Even Midnight, the feline terrorist who belonged to my aunt was never
threatened with declawing at any time, and he not only scratched, he
bit! And she had five kids.

Dirty litter box offerings indeed!  But Welcome back home to those who
truly love and value you, Honor.

Melissa
Marina - 13 Nov 2006 05:29 GMT
> When I was six I remember getting scratched frequently by the family
> cats, and my parents thought nothing of it. Not to imply that my
> parents were negligent, as they definitely weren't.

Same here, Dewi. I don't think I've ever been without a cat scratch or
ten since I was a toddler. I've also never clipped a cat's claws. I
hardly even notice it these days if a cat scratches, by mistake or on
purpose.

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.
Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Sam - 13 Nov 2006 03:08 GMT
> Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
> mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Pam S.

Wow!  Honor's made it to Chez Shirk (aka Kitty Heaven).  Congrats on the
new family member.

Signature

Sam, closely supervised by Mistletoe

Mishi - 13 Nov 2006 03:08 GMT
>Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
>mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Pam S.

My grandma and mom used to tell us kids "you tease the dogs/cats and
get bit or scratched, don't come crying to me!"  I had plenty of
scratches when I was growing up, and have quite a few right now,
courtesy of my crew. (Giving meds is NOT the favourite thing to do
around here.) I haven't died from them yet, and don't expect to
anytime in the future.

As for the sister as my lebanese english teacher said, may the fleas
of 100 camels infest her armpits, and may she have casts on both arms!

Mishi
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Nov 2006 03:21 GMT
> As for the sister as my lebanese english teacher said, may the fleas
> of 100 camels infest her armpits, and may she have casts on both arms!

LOL!! The Middle East appears to be a source of good curses. I've
heard a Jewish one that goes like this: "May all the teeth fall out
of your mouth except one, and that one have a toothache."

Joyce
Kreisleriana - 13 Nov 2006 14:04 GMT
> > As for the sister as my lebanese english teacher said, may the fleas
> > of 100 camels infest her armpits, and may she have casts on both arms!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Joyce

Except that's an Ashkenazic Jewish curse, and comes from Central
Europe, not the Middle East.

Theresa
Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh

Make Levees, Not War
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Nov 2006 18:34 GMT
> > > As for the sister as my lebanese english teacher said, may the fleas
> > > of 100 camels infest her armpits, and may she have casts on both arms!
> >
> >LOL!! The Middle East appears to be a source of good curses. I've
> >heard a Jewish one that goes like this: "May all the teeth fall out
> >of your mouth except one, and that one have a toothache."

> Except that's an Ashkenazic Jewish curse, and comes from Central
> Europe, not the Middle East.

Well, sure, but where do Jews come from? :)

Joyce
Kreisleriana - 13 Nov 2006 18:43 GMT
> > > > As for the sister as my lebanese english teacher said, may the fleas
> > > > of 100 camels infest her armpits, and may she have casts on both arms!
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Joyce

Where I live, they mostly come from Brooklyn. ;)  And before that,
they came from Russia, Poland, the Ukraine, Germany, France, Portugal,
Spain, Hungary.  I think my point was that most of the Jews we know in
the US are the descendants of people who lived in Europe for many
centuries, and their ties to the Middle East are spiritual.

Theresa
Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh

Make Levees, Not War
sriddles@aol.com - 13 Nov 2006 04:02 GMT
> Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
> mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Pam S.

Of course dirty litterbox offerings of the worst kind. It's really good
of you all to take her in. If you're like us, in a short while she'll
just blend in and you won't even notice an extra.
Can't believe they blamed the cat for scratching the kid. When I used
to come bawling to my mom because I got scratched/bitten, I never even
got sympathy. Her first response was always, "Well what did you do to
he/she/it?"

Sherry
tanada - 14 Nov 2006 23:42 GMT
> Of course dirty litterbox offerings of the worst kind. It's really good
> of you all to take her in. If you're like us, in a short while she'll
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> got sympathy. Her first response was always, "Well what did you do to
> he/she/it?"

That was my reaction.  I asked Jim's brother what the kid did to Honor to
set her off, and he said that both his sister and mother were watching the
events, and they claim that all the kid did was talk to the cat.  Honor is a
hoolicat, but not insane.  I can't see her doing anything outrageous unless
the boy was really irritating her.

We've always taught our kids from the word go that cats have "hot" paws and
the right to self defense.

Pam S.
Jo Firey - 15 Nov 2006 00:19 GMT
>> Of course dirty litterbox offerings of the worst kind. It's really good
>> of you all to take her in. If you're like us, in a short while she'll
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Pam S.

They also have the right to occasional lapses in behavior.  Just like
everybody else.

Jo
Ben Goren - 15 Nov 2006 01:42 GMT
>>> Of course  dirty litterbox  offerings of the  worst kind. It's
>>> really good of you all to take her in. If you're like us, in a
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> They also have the right to occasional lapses in behavior.  Just
> like everybody else.

Except...fang and claw are normal parts of a cat's vocabulary, and
essential for  the full range  of expression. It's often  not even
pretend-hostile  --  and,  when  it  is, it's  the  same  kind  of
``hostility'' as you see when teammates whop each other upside the
head by way of congratulations after a great play. Or it's part of
the play, itself.

Of course, cats  have thick fur that's designed to  take the brunt
of  such ``attacks,''  and  we don't. But  they're also  perfectly
capable of learning  to moderate the force of the  bite or scratch
so  they can  both  express  themselves fully  and  do so  without
causing harm.

A  great way  for both  furred  and furless  to learn  this is  by
playing patty-cake. If  the cat's in  a playful mood,  lightly and
quickly  touch the  top  of one  of  her front  paws  -- and  then
withdraw your hand very quickly. Repeat a couple times, and she'll
start to  try to reciprocate. Pretty  soon, you'll both  have your
forelimbs going in a circular motion, like in an exaggerated thumb
war. And, just like in a thumb  war, the winner is whoever manages
to catch the top of the paw.

You'll  both score  multiple hits. Naturaly,  her hits  will leave
marks.   If you're  both experienced  at  it, the  marks won't  be
anywhere near as bad as what  you'd get if you went blackberrying,
and you'll both have at least as much fun.

If she's inexperienced, when she scores she may draw blood or even
get her  claw caught in  your skin. Don't panic! Say,  ``ow,'' and
let her know that she's hurting  you -- but also make it perfectly
clear that you don't blame her  and nothing bad is going to happen
to  her as  a result. Once  you two  extricate yourselves,  if you
think she still might  be in the mood, feel free  to pick right up
where you left off.

If she goes after you with more than just the one paw, especially if she
was slow to react or looked annoyed, she's probably not having
fun. Respect her wishes; ``no'' means ``no.'' This either isn't the
time for the game, or it's not the cat to play it with.

But, if  it is and  she is,  she'll quickly learn  that scratching
/per se/ isn't bad -- which  it isn't. She'll also just as quickly
learn the  boundary between ``vigorous communication''  and injury
and attack. She'll learn that there's no need to attack you, since
you're  not gonna  attack  back  -- she's  safe,  either way,  and
attacking only upsets you both.

Plus, the  next time she thinks  you /do/ deserve to  be attacked,
she's much /much/ more likely to limit herself to just barely more
than the  symbolic attack. You'll get  the message, but  you won't
get hurt. Much.

It's  a similar  kind of  process  that kittens  learn with  their
mothers  and  playmates --  all  sorts  of pseudo-ferocity  that's
recriprocated or  tolerated...to a  point. And it's easy  to learn
and remember just where that point is.

And, really, it's not surprising at all. Empathy is as essential a
survival trait for cats as for any other social species, and we're
such close cousins  that our languages are still  quite similar --
and humans  have enough  extra brainpower to  learn enough  cat to
fill in the gaps.

Provided, of course,  you don't mind letting her  spill your blood
from time to time. But, believe me, it's worth it....

Cheers,

b&

Signature

EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
``All but God can prove this sentence true.''

Enfilade - 15 Nov 2006 02:58 GMT
>  >>
>  >>> Of course  dirty litterbox  offerings of the  worst kind. It's
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  >>> got  scratched/bitten, I  never even  got sympathy. Her  first
>  >>> response was always, "Well what did you do to he/she/it?"

My dad is a farmer and he taught me a healthy respect for animals.

Nox used to claw us through the bedsheets, sometimes bad enough that we
would bleed even though the sheets.  The moral of the story was to
learn to trim her claws, not to have them f***ing amputated.

Smokey started showing psychological symptoms (fear, distress,
hyperaggressiveness) just from having his claws TRIMMED the first time.
This was about 6 weeks after he came indoors from his feral life, and
it took him a few days to realize that he didn't NEED razor sharp claws
for self-defence any more.  After that, claw trims have been no big
deal.

--Fil
Jo Firey - 15 Nov 2006 18:00 GMT
> >>> Of course  dirty litterbox  offerings of the  worst kind. It's
> >>> really good of you all to take her in. If you're like us, in a
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
>
> b&

I agree with all that.  We have always rough housed with our kittens and
puppies in order to teach them what is an acceptable level of biting and
scratching.

Big mistake was when Charlie tried to do the same with Kayla.  Me too for a
while.  When she was six weeks old she would suck my fingers.

Now she wants to play bite and swat with her paws and there is no safe
acceptable level.  We are having a really difficult time breaking her of it.
Because we taught her it was OK in the first place.

That and putting her tennis ball on the kitchen counter in hopes of getting
in a game while I'm cooking.

Jo
Marina - 15 Nov 2006 18:31 GMT
> I agree with all that.  We have always rough housed with our kittens and
> puppies in order to teach them what is an acceptable level of biting and
> scratching.

I've only recently discovered that Miranda really loves rough-housing.
She was always so small and thin, I thought I had to be careful with
her, like a china doll. But now we have several roughing-up sessions per
day, and she loves every minute. It happens on a certain chair, and she
jumps up on it and braces herself, while glancing at me: 'is she coming?
Is she coming? Oh-oh, here she is. Brace yourself, Mir.' Cutie pie.

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.
Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Kreisleriana - 15 Nov 2006 19:52 GMT
>> I agree with all that.  We have always rough housed with our kittens and
>> puppies in order to teach them what is an acceptable level of biting and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>jumps up on it and braces herself, while glancing at me: 'is she coming?
>Is she coming? Oh-oh, here she is. Brace yourself, Mir.' Cutie pie.

Oh, I love playing that kind of game with them, delaying, delaying,
delaying . . . . I used to play what I called the "Death Wish" game
with Stinky-- hiding my head just behind the arm of the sofa, and
periodically popping out at him until he couldn't stand it anymore and
LUNGE straight at me!!!!!  I know it was a dumb thing to do, but I
just couldn't resist the sight of the full-on assault of dilated
eyeballs and bristly whiskers shooting straight at me.  ;)

Theresa
Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh

Make Levees, Not War
Marina - 15 Nov 2006 20:02 GMT
> Oh, I love playing that kind of game with them, delaying, delaying,
> delaying . . . . I used to play what I called the "Death Wish" game
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> just couldn't resist the sight of the full-on assault of dilated
> eyeballs and bristly whiskers shooting straight at me.  ;)

LOL! I forgot the point of my post, which was that Miranda never
scratches (on purpose) or bites. Though she wrestles my hand, she
doesn't even nick me. I think my niece brought her up very well.

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.
Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Gandalf - 13 Nov 2006 05:23 GMT
I'm sure glad that Honor has a safe refuge from the idiocy of the 'bad
side' of the family! Thank you for taking her in.

As stated by others, few cats scratch without provocation; it would be a
better lesson to teach the 6YO not to tease the cat!

~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life without cats would be only marginally worth living."
-TC, and the unmercifully, relentlessly, sweet calico kitty, Kenzie.

How you behave towards cats here below determines your status in Heaven.
- Robert Heinlein

Life is very difficult. Once you understand that, life becomes easier.
-Buddha

>Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
>mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Pam S.
Marina - 13 Nov 2006 05:24 GMT
> May I ask you all to join us in welcoming Honor back to her home and in
> sending dirty litter offerings to Jim's mom and sister for even thinking of
> mutilating that poor little girl's feet?

Welcome back, Honor! Dirty litterbox offerings all packed and ready to send.

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.
Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Adrian A - 13 Nov 2006 11:47 GMT
> Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here
> from his mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Pam S.

Welcome to your foreverhome, Honor. I do hope Jim's mother and sister can
learn to understand what de-clawing really means.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
Cats leave pawprints on your heart.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

tanada - 14 Nov 2006 23:47 GMT
> Welcome to your foreverhome, Honor. I do hope Jim's mother and sister can
> learn to understand what de-clawing really means.

Unfortunately they both know what is involved.  Jim's sister has declawed
every kitten she's ever had, then finds other homes for it.  His mom has
been told and directed to the web sites that describe what happens with
declawing, and she says that she doesn't think declawing is that bad and
that we shouldn't upset her like that and so forth.  We don't even try any
more.  We probably wouldn't have been able to rescue Honor from her if we
had said anything.  Jim and the kids wouldn't let me go with them to get
Honor, because they know how I feel about blaming the cat for everything
that happens and declawing and what I probably would have said to her about
her behavior and that of her daughter.

Pam S. still upset about mutilating that sweet little girl's feet
Kreisleriana - 13 Nov 2006 13:57 GMT
>Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
>mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Pam S.

Appropriate offerings in all the right directions.  I would have
wanted to know a lot more about the circumstances under which Honor
scratched the child.  Not that I think kids should be mutilated on a
regular basis <g>, but so much of the time **** happens because
children unintentionally frighten or p*** off the animal.

Theresa
Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh

Make Levees, Not War
Takayuki - 14 Nov 2006 04:55 GMT
>Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
>mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>sending dirty litter offerings to Jim's mom and sister for even thinking of
>mutilating that poor little girl's feet?

That climbing kitten?  I'm glad that she could come back with you
instead of being thrown away.
polonca12000 - 18 Nov 2006 12:25 GMT
> Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
> mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Pam S.

I'm relieved to hear Honor is with you where she is safe and loved. I
can't understand Jim's mom and his sister. I wish declawing would be
forbidden by law everywhere.
Lots of purrs and hugs,
Polonca and Soncek
tanada - 19 Nov 2006 18:41 GMT
> I'm relieved to hear Honor is with you where she is safe and loved. I
> can't understand Jim's mom and his sister. I wish declawing would be
> forbidden by law everywhere.

Me too, Polonca.  Me too.

Pam S.
glsummer@neptunelink.com - 23 Nov 2006 20:43 GMT
>Today, Jim (daughter Amanda's boyfriend) got a phone call over here from his
>mom.  His cat, Honor, scratched his six year old nephew.  She was either
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Pam S.

Absolutely!  Welcome home, Honor.  You are a lucky kitty.  And a
pthhhthhhhissssssspitttt to Jim's mom and sister.

Ginger-lyn

Home Pages:
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