Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / September 2006
Coming clean...
|
|
Thread rating:  |
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 03:34 GMT Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy talking to like minded people without a lot of the superficial judging that is attached to real life. I am not naiive enough to expect a total lack of prejudice on usenet; I merely refer to the lack of physical/ethnic etc prejudice that is less prevalent here and makes it easier for us all to relate as people. I dislike hiding things, as you can't keep it up for very long. I have been aware for some time that some of you are involved with animal cruelty organisations, and noticed, especially in American groups (not this one so much) that breeding is viewed as evil in all it's forms, and never mentioned other than critically. However, I am a registered breeder of Siamese and Balinese (some of you may already be aware of this as I mentioned my website in other groups). I know a little bit about breeding in the US from what you have said, and what I have observed during my research, and it is very different to Australian breeding. I realize that many of you will disagree with me on ethical basis about breeding cats altogether, but the fact remains that we do. I am not opening this topic in order to start a debate, but because I have enjoyed being part of this group immensely, but cannot continue to take part while ignoring half my family. I will elaborate briefly on my practises, and if the overall consensus is that you cannot stand being in the same room as myself, then so be it, I have enjoyed my time here and will leave you in peace. I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society. We breed, sell, and show our cats, but on a much smaller scale than overseas. Shows are quite informal and very friendly,with very little 'competitive spirit' and with a lot of teamwork. Older breeders mentor younger ones readily, however are usually very selective about who they choose to give a breeding cat to. Most of us desex kittens before sale as pets; I do, and the only breeders who don't desex would if they could. Unfortunately vets here are a bit 'behind the times' and will not desex before the age of 6 months. There is only one breeder in my city who desexes at 3 months. Breeders who cannot desex withhold papers until proof of desexing is shown, and can take a cat back if not desexed. I keep my cats all indoors with me, and my kittens are raised indoors and with people. I carefully vet would-be owners and make sure they are educated about their new charge. I educate them if necessary, and keep in touch to provide support. People who purchase a cat from me are not buying one in lieu of buying a shelter cat. They are wanting a Siamese specifically. If anything, people buy a cat from me instead of buying one from a pet shop. So that is me. They are part of my family, and I see no reason to pretend to anyone. Feel free to disagree, or question, I will answer questions but not argue. I have enjoyed being part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is part of my life and I see no reason to hide it.
Jo Firey - 08 Sep 2006 03:55 GMT > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > have enjoyed being part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is > part of my life and I see no reason to hide it. Now doesn't that feel better?
Just kidding. Personally, I love Siamese cats. Not Siamese show cats particularly, but purebred Siamese cats. No two of them are alike, but they are totally different from "ordinary" cats. We have over a lifetime usually had one Siamese in residence and one DSH. The domestics have all been rescue feral cats.
Without getting into all the arguments, I love beauty in its many and varied forms. I think purebred animals embody a form of beauty that would be lost without careful and dedicated breeders that try to preserve and improve the lines.
Jake is our fourth Siamese cat. Each of them has been a wonderful experience. One we could not have enjoyed without breeders such as yourself.
Jo
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 04:14 GMT > Now doesn't that feel better? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Jo Thankyou for being so kind. I understand where people who disagree with breeding come from, but dislike being tarred with the same brush as breeders who practise unethical breeding.
I have always wanted a Siamese, for their character as well as beauty, and try to raise them so people can enjoy them. They are incredible to know, and watching them grow up is proving to be wonderful. i am actually a very new breeder, and Cougher has just had her first litter, so i thought i'd just come clean before I accidentally bubbled over with joy about the kittens and got flamed by someone. Without putting down my beloved moggies, who are no less beautiful and interesting than Siamese, in fact someone is trying to get the Aussie Moggie registered as a distinct breed (Antipodean Shorthair) I believe it is important to maintain the breeds, especially 'native' breeds like the Siamese. I am glad to find another Siamese-o-phile; they are not quite cats, but furry people (well they think they are!!) I will be putting up kitten pics soon if you want a drool.....:)
Karen - 08 Sep 2006 04:08 GMT > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had > some time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is part of my life > and I see no reason to hide it. The main thing people have trouble with is indescriminate backyard breeders which are no better than puppy mills. Lois on this group also breeds. I don't consider responsible breeders to be nearly the cause of the pet overpopulation in the U.S. as I do people who simply don't get their pets fixed and dumpers. Dumpers reeeeaaally p*ss me off.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 04:52 GMT > The main thing people have trouble with is indescriminate backyard > breeders which are no better than puppy mills. Lois on this group also > breeds. I don't consider responsible breeders to be nearly the cause of > the pet overpopulation in the U.S. as I do people who simply don't get > their pets fixed and dumpers. Dumpers reeeeaaally p*ss me off. Yes I agree. We think someone dumped my Jasmine. I also have rescued several kittens from similar situations. I am thinking of having my kittens microchipped in my name so if they are dumped they will be tracked back to me, but I am still researching the logistics; whether the owner can change the address etc. Ideally I would like to microchip in my name permanently so it doesn't matter where they go, they can always be traced back to me. We keep an eye out in the papers and pet shops for backyard breeders; that way we can make sure we tell each other and don't give them any of our cats. It makes me very angry, especially if I found out it had happened to one of my babies. One of the reasons I never found homes for Jasmine's is that i couldn't be sure people would look after them; I've put so much effort into them, as much as my pure breds, but as they are 'free' and don't cost $400 and come with papers, it attracts the people who want a 'free' cat meaning a worthless and disposable cat. And I was not about to give my boys to anyone like that....thank god my landlord likes cats!!!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 08 Sep 2006 18:20 GMT > Yes I agree. We think someone dumped my Jasmine. I also have rescued several > kittens from similar situations. I am thinking of having my kittens > microchipped in my name so if they are dumped they will be tracked back to > me, but I am still researching the logistics; whether the owner can change > the address etc. Ideally I would like to microchip in my name permanently so > it doesn't matter where they go, they can always be traced back to me. Since I'm contemplating a move to another state, and will not have an address or phone number until I get there and find and apartment, I asked my vet about microchipping. At least here, the agency that people call to report finding the cat maintian a list of several contact numbers, including that of the original vet inserting the chip. then so long as you keep them in the loop and notify them and the agency when you change addresses (or the cat does) it should work out for you.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:28 GMT >> Yes I agree. We think someone dumped my Jasmine. I also have rescued >> several kittens from similar situations. I am thinking of having my [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > keep them in the loop and notify them and the agency when you change > addresses (or the cat does) it should work out for you. Thanks for that!! I hope they do that here; I'll be asking the vet when I take the babies in for desex. in a few months.
Cheryl - 08 Sep 2006 04:09 GMT > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline > I had some time to think about things, and the reason I started [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > altogether, but the fact remains that we do. I am not opening > this topic in order to start a debate, [...]
Liz, I am against the breeding of dogs and cats because of over- population, but there is a time and a place for arguing that. I don't take every opportunity, like in this group for example, to stand on my soapbox and scream and point fingers. I have a very good friend who breeds poodles, and while I'm against it, I respect her belief that she is helping to improve the breed she loves and shows. Showing is another activity that gets me a little upset, depending on how it's done, but I understand that those who show [dogs or cats or chickens or name-your-favorite] usually have a deep love of their favorite species/breed, and are dedicated to trying to eliminate genetic defects. When the line crosses to abuse/collecting/fraud/lack of caring about the breed in leu of money, well that's another story.
Please feel free to be yourself. That's all we can be.
 Signature Cheryl
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 04:57 GMT > Liz, I am against the breeding of dogs and cats because of over- > population, but there is a time and a place for arguing that. I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Please feel free to be yourself. That's all we can be. Thankyou Cheryl :) I agree with you on showing; it can cross the line sometimes, where apparently normal people become temporarily insane. I don't know what your show are like; I have only been to regional QLd shows where its more of a get together and look at each other's babies affair; quite low key and fun. I am totally with you on inappropriate breeding; no one I know earns any money breeding; and my association is quite strict about ethics; I had to be vouched for by another breeder who'd checked me out thoroughly before being allowed to join. Thankyou for being accepting :)
Lois - 08 Sep 2006 04:37 GMT > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > have enjoyed being part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is > part of my life and I see no reason to hide it. Very well put meee, you and I would get on so well, I am a registered breeder of Burmese, my ethic's are much the same as your's, am fussy where my "babies" go and desex before leaving home. I have been breeding now for 20 years. My litter of 5 left home this week, the house is quiet. Can you put up your web address so I can have a look - thanks
Good luck to you, you are in for fun, laugher and yes from time to time heartache as you travel this road in your chosen hobby
Best wishes
Lois
 Signature http://zeotropeburmese.kiwiwebhost.net.nz
Burmese are like potato chips, you can't just have one!
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 04:57 GMT , > Very well put meee, you and I would get on so well, I am a registered
> breeder of Burmese, my ethic's are much the same as your's, am fussy where > my "babies" go and desex before leaving home. I have been breeding now for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Lois Thankyou Lois! I have a litter of 6 at the moment; my first litter (aside from Jasmine's) and so much fun!! I haven't got any pics of the babies up yet as I just got back online today, but I'll be putting them up tomorrow. Here's the website;
www.pacificsiamese.bravehost.com
Thanks for your kind words Lois :)
 Signature 'Yes, Life,' said the Cat, 'with its dim, delicious half-tones and veiled indeterminate distances. Its surprisals, escapes, encounters, and dizzying leaps - its full-throated choruses in honour of the morning star, and its melting reveries beneath the sun-warmed wall.' Kipling
Victor Martinez - 08 Sep 2006 05:03 GMT > I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society. We I don't see a problem with ethical breeders. If it weren't for them, I wouldn't have my beloved Basho, Issa, Maya and Luna!
 Signature Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 06:07 GMT Thankyou Victor!! :) Remind me again (6 months absence I'm sorry, I've got a shocking memory) what breeds you have?
>> I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society. >> We > > I don't see a problem with ethical breeders. If it weren't for them, I > wouldn't have my beloved Basho, Issa, Maya and Luna! Victor Martinez - 08 Sep 2006 16:25 GMT > Thankyou Victor!! :) Remind me again (6 months absence I'm sorry, I've got a > shocking memory) what breeds you have? Our purebreds siblings are two tonkinese boys (Basho and Issa) and two bengal girls (Luna and Maya). We also have 3 gorgeous mutts, brothers Fez and Rufous (orange tabbies) and our senior guy Xoxo (black and white DLH).
 Signature Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:21 GMT > Our purebreds siblings are two tonkinese boys (Basho and Issa) and two > bengal girls (Luna and Maya). We also have 3 gorgeous mutts, brothers Fez > and Rufous (orange tabbies) and our senior guy Xoxo (black and white DLH). Ah, that's right....I remember telling you I want a bengal one day....DH, since being converted to catdom by Jasmine and her babies, has been lusting after bengals.....
sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 05:17 GMT > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > group, and will miss it heaps, but this is part of my life and I see no > reason to hide it. I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons, besides the obvious one. But, that said, this forum isn't the place to get on a soapbox about it, so I don't. My daughter bought a purebred Maine Coon and showed him for many years. I did go to the shows and cheered the grandcat on, and managed to keep my mouth shut there, too.
:-) And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical overpopulation problem that the United States does.
Sherry
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 06:12 GMT > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons, > besides the obvious one. But, that said, this forum isn't the place to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sherry Thanks for being accepting Sherry. Australia has cat-related problems as well, but I saw a recent doco on feral cats in the US and it seems your problem is different. We have an established feral population that has snowballed in country areas, but in city areas not too many. Australia is quite harsh in climate so people usually (IME anyway) keep their cats indoors most of the time. It is more the dogs who suffer.
sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 06:17 GMT > > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons, > > besides the obvious one. But, that said, this forum isn't the place to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > quite harsh in climate so people usually (IME anyway) keep their cats > indoors most of the time. It is more the dogs who suffer. I looked at your website; very nice. You sound very particular about placement of your babies. I did have a question that I wonder if you can answer, since you're very knowledgeable about Balinese: My Frank came from a kitten mill; dozens of little Applehead kittens (and cats) in a filthy house. Then there was this one little longhaired kitten. Looked exactly like the others, but had very long, Angora-silky fur. Someone told me that's how the Balinese crop up; from Siamese parents. Is that true? (of course, it's possible he isn't purebred at all; a lot of the registration papers they had were bogus. They were horrible breeders of the worst kind). I'd dig around and try to find a picture of him.
Sherry
Sherry
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 07:48 GMT >> > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons, >> > besides the obvious one. But, that said, this forum isn't the place to [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Sherry Yes, it's entirely possible. There is some debate about how Balinese began; some say it is a naturally occurring gene that pops up; others that it is the result of occasional Siamese/Persian interbreeding. I am inclined to think it's natural, as Balinese fur texture is so different to Persians. What was probably the case in the kitten you saw is that there may have been a Balinese grand-parent or great-grandparent and he was a throwback; in my state a Balinese/Siamese cross is registered as either balinese or siamese depending on fur length but in most places it's not allowed.
Will in New Haven - 08 Sep 2006 15:54 GMT > >> > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons, > >> > besides the obvious one. But, that said, this forum isn't the place to [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > state a Balinese/Siamese cross is registered as either balinese or siamese > depending on fur length but in most places it's not allowed Four of the six fur-people in our house are Himilayans. As I am sure you know, that means that they are part Siamese and part Persian, although Himmies are generally bred to one another now. I think that the large differences, in fur texture, between the Balinese and the Himalayan proves you right that the Balinese is a natural variant of the Siamese. If they were both the result of Persian/Siamese crosses, wouldn't the fur texture be similar to one another? Solid-color Himmies are shown as Persians.
Micki bred Himalayans for awhile but she gave it up as her job is too demanding. She kept two retired mommy-cats, Maggy May, who has wonderful Siamese markings on a grey background, and Sunrise, a perfect red solid. She also kept Maggy May's little boy Winnie, a white solid, because he is adorable and gallant and did not want to leave and Maggy May's daugher Missy because she hates all primates and has to stay here where we knew it and loved her anyway. And we know how to handle a homicidal three-pound cat without going to the emergency room.
Our big cat WooToo came to us when my Mom passed away. She was my Mom's first non-persian, a large domestic shorthair with some vague Persian markings.
Anyway, no one here, not even bear the d*g, thinks you are bad because you breed cats. Of course, Missy hates you but that comes with the territory.
Will in New Haven
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:21 GMT > Four of the six fur-people in our house are Himilayans. As I am sure > you know, that means that they are part Siamese and part Persian, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wouldn't the fur texture be similar to one another? Solid-color Himmies > are shown as Persians. Yes, that's what I reckon too....Balinese fur is very fine and silky, without the fluff of the Persian based breeds. What are they like personality wise? More persian or oriental?
> Micki bred Himalayans for awhile but she gave it up as her job is too > demanding. She kept two retired mommy-cats, Maggy May, who has [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > where we knew it and loved her anyway. And we know how to handle a > homicidal three-pound cat without going to the emergency room. LMAO!! That's the Siamese coming out....my boy Mango adores me, and was convinced I was his mum from the word go but he view all other hoomins as a bad smell he will barely tolerate being in the same room with! He is very sweet to the other cats though, especially Cougher and his kittens.
> Our big cat WooToo came to us when my Mom passed away. She was my Mom's > first non-persian, a large domestic shorthair with some vague Persian [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you breed cats. Of course, Missy hates you but that comes with the > territory. Thankyou :) I can handle Missy hating me I think....;) some cats are just born with the knowledge that homo sapiens exists only to serve and should not be noticed outside giving orders and punishing for failing to follow orders...
 Signature 'Yes, Life,' said the Cat, 'with its dim, delicious half-tones and veiled indeterminate distances. Its surprisals, escapes, encounters, and dizzying leaps - its full-throated choruses in honour of the morning star, and its melting reveries beneath the sun-warmed wall.' Kipling
Will in New Haven - 09 Sep 2006 01:22 GMT > > Four of the six fur-people in our house are Himilayans. As I am sure > > you know, that means that they are part Siamese and part Persian, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > personality > wise? More persian or oriental? They are such individuals it is hard to categorize them. I think Maggy May, who looks the most Siamese save for her coat, is the most Persian. Not that she isn't quick and somewhat feisty but she is calmer. Winnie is a little bit more like a Siamese in build and temperment but he looks like a slender Persian. Sunrise is a purr-fect, although unfashionably slim. red Persian with copper-fire eyes but she has a great deal of the Siamese diva in her. However, our morning interaction, where she lies on my chest and combs out my beard and mustache with her claws, does wonders for my grooming. Missy, like her mom Maggy-May looks like a long-haired Siamese , even moreso because she is slimmer. Her temperment is loving and sweet, to the other cats and especially to Bear the d*g. Humans just have to stay away from her.
> > Micki bred Himalayans for awhile but she gave it up as her job is too > > demanding. She kept two retired mommy-cats, Maggy May, who has [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > with the knowledge that homo sapiens exists only to serve and should not be > noticed outside giving orders and punishing for failing to follow orders... If we stay out of her way, we are in no immediate danger. She wuvs Bear and none of the cats fear him at all. They will humor him and scramble away if he gives a playful woof but they think he's a teddy-Bear.
Will in New Haven
-- Near this spot are deposited the remains of one who possessed Beauty without Vanity, Strength without Insolence, Courage without Ferocity, and all the Virtues of Man, without his Vices. This Praise, which would be unmeaning Flattery if inscribed over human ashes, is but a just tribute to the Memory of Boatswain, a Dog. ~George Gordon, Lord Byron, "Inscription on the Monument of a Newfoundland Dog"
> -- > 'Yes, Life,' said the Cat, 'with its dim, delicious half-tones and veiled > indeterminate distances. Its surprisals, escapes, encounters, and dizzying > leaps - its full-throated choruses in honour of the morning star, and its > melting reveries beneath the sun-warmed wall.' > Kipling meeee - 09 Sep 2006 01:52 GMT > They are such individuals it is hard to categorize them. I think Maggy > May, who looks the most Siamese save for her coat, is the most Persian. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > she is slimmer. Her temperment is loving and sweet, to the other cats > and especially to Bear the d*g. Humans just have to stay away from her. Wow you have a mixed bag there! They sound beyoootiful. Interesting that Missy prefers animals...can't say I blame her though!!
...
> If we stay out of her way, we are in no immediate danger. She wuvs Bear > and none of the cats fear him at all. They will humor him and scramble [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> melting reveries beneath the sun-warmed wall.' >> Kipling sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 19:52 GMT > >> > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons, > >> > besides the obvious one. But, that said, this forum isn't the place to [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > state a Balinese/Siamese cross is registered as either balinese or siamese > depending on fur length but in most places it's not allowed. I tend to agree with you. Frank's fur is long and fine, but not like Persian fur at all. It never matts and lays nice, so soft. I found some pics to show you:
This one he's pretending to be Bast:
http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/frankstatue.jpg
This one shows his face pretty well:
http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/frankgarden.jpg
You can see most of his coat in this one:
http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/kittenfrank.jpg
Sherry
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 23:05 GMT >> > Sherry >> > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Sherry Awwww!!!! he is a real stunner!! Those eyes are to die for. And the coat is different, isn't it, it looks silkier like Balinese more than persian.
badwilson - 09 Sep 2006 02:01 GMT >>>>> I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of >>>>> reasons, besides the obvious one. But, that said, this forum [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Sherry Frank looks like a Birman to me.
 Signature Britta Purring is an automatic safety valve device for dealing with happiness overflow. Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
meeee - 09 Sep 2006 03:00 GMT pretending to be Bast:
>> http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/frankstatue.jpg >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Frank looks like a Birman to me. I was going to say Himalayan, but I'm not sure on what the names are in the US; we have different names over here for some breeds. His fur is similar to the Balinese in that it's not so fluffy, but silky looking but it's a lot thicker than Balinese, although that might be the colder weather where you are, I'm not sure. Balinese also tend to have longer fur at their back legs than front.
badwilson - 09 Sep 2006 15:02 GMT > pretending to be Bast: >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > the colder weather where you are, I'm not sure. Balinese also tend to > have longer fur at their back legs than front. This is a Birman: http://www.cfa.org/breeds/profiles/birman.html Friends of mine have 2 purebreds and Vino's dad is supposedly one. They are very adorable.
 Signature Britta Purring is an automatic safety valve device for dealing with happiness overflow. Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
meeee - 10 Sep 2006 22:34 GMT >> pretending to be Bast: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Friends of mine have 2 purebreds and Vino's dad is supposedly one. They > are very adorable. Wow what an interesting history; I never knew that about the Birman!! They must have been similar in status in Burma to the siamese in Thailand; a kind of 'sacred cat'...very interesting.
tanada - 10 Sep 2006 22:11 GMT > I tend to agree with you. Frank's fur is long and fine, but not like > Persian fur at all. It never matts and lays nice, so soft. I found some [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/kittenfrank.jpg Frank is berry bootiful. And he has a sense of humor as well.
Pam S. who'd love to have a Siamese or reasonable facsimile thereof
tension_on_the_wire - 08 Sep 2006 06:17 GMT > > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some > > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Sherry Nor the critical attitude problem at the shows. Every cat I have ever had was a rescue and a worthy one at that. No matter that the cat was free, they were of inestimable value to me as friends and companions and in the most difficult times of my life....they were the only ones that remained loyal.
Out of curiosity, and to entertain my then four-year-old daughter, we went to see the American Cat Fancier's Assn International Cat Show, in Menlo Park, near San Francisco...it was a first for me and her both. You would think it was the Preakness Stakes or the Kentucky Derby. The cats mostly seemed content and happy, I will admit....but the owners holy moly it would have taken a beer keg of valium to settle these people down. You could cut the tension in the room with a blunt butter knife. My daughter could not cough in the room without a dozen baleful evil eyes cast her way, as if the cats could actually have gotten AIDS from her or something! The general attitude in the room was that this was the be-all and end-all of cat-dom and that a lot of these people really only valued their cats for the prize they might win. I know it isn't true, and that many of these people turn into ordinary cat lovers when they get home but I'll tell you.....they morphed into other creatures entirely on that day, worse than anything you might see on Hallowe'en! In Britain, and I am gathering in Austrailia, and also in Canada, it is a much more relaxed affair with people realizing the biggest fun of it is in getting together with other cat owners and swapping great anecdotes!
---tension
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 07:50 GMT > Nor the critical attitude problem at the shows. Every cat I have ever > had was a rescue and a worthy one at that. No matter that the cat was [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > ---tension That doesn't sound like much fun to me; I still haven't heard any of the breeders being critical of each other's cats at shows, although there was a lot of,'Did you see her lilac kitten? Absolutely beautiful; I'll be interested to see how she does' which was very nice!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 08 Sep 2006 18:24 GMT > And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical > overpopulation problem that the United States does. Perhaps the U.S. should do a little more to promote "ethical ownership"? (It's not breeders who dump the kid's "summer" pets when vacation time is over and they leave their summer homes for the city, again!)
Cheryl Perkins - 08 Sep 2006 19:20 GMT > Perhaps the U.S. should do a little more to promote "ethical > ownership"? (It's not breeders who dump the kid's "summer" > pets when vacation time is over and they leave their summer > homes for the city, again!) If the US is anything like Canada, there are lots of people promoting responsible pet ownership, but the people who need to listen never seem to. There are invariably people who don't get their cats and dogs spayed or neutered and then dump the ones they can't find homes for, and people - especially highly mobile people like students who maybe don't really have permission from a landlord to have a pet in the first place - who simply make no arrangments for their pets when they move. And I've lost count of the ad campaigns, the interviews with representatives of the SPCA or other groups etc I've heard all trying to persuade people not to do this and other stuff, too, like abandoning beagles in the woods if they aren't good hunters.
 Signature Cheryl
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:39 GMT > If the US is anything like Canada, there are lots of people promoting > responsible pet ownership, but the people who need to listen never seem [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other stuff, too, like abandoning beagles in the woods if they aren't good > hunters. And rural areas are the worst offenders; usually no RSPCA to regulate anything, or look after abandoned pets, so they are dumped, drowned, poisoned, hunted, and thousands of other horrible things. As country animals are usually working animals, cats wander free to control rodents, which is often useful to people but dangerous for the cat, and dogs are usually guard or hunting dogs and little else. They are chained, or used to hunt pigs and ripped open, sometimes fatally. The problem is that no-one cares....and there is so much of rural Australia that it's very hard to control.
sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 20:00 GMT > > And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical > > overpopulation problem that the United States does. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pets when vacation time is over and they leave their summer > homes for the city, again!) It isn't a simple case of "breeders vs. irresponsible owners" though. It's that third category in there that is responsible for a vast part of the problem. It's the backyard breeder, the ones who have the perennial "kittens 4 sale" sign in front of their house.
Aside from passing laws, I don't kniow what else can be done honestly. We already subsidize neutering for people who can't afford it. We already preach and preach about it, advertise on the radio, TV and billboards. And we *still* have the "free kittens" people, and the kitten mill people. (Kitten millers, BTW, at least here, are almost always applehead Siamese and Persian. I always thought that was peculiar. Guess they're just the most common ones.) And I don't mean the responsible breeders. I don't even know how many ethical breeders we have, because quite frankly, they don't advertise in the newspaper, or on posters tacked on telephone poles. Their kittens are usually already spoken for when they're born, and if they're not, about the only way to hook up with one is through the cat shows.
Sherry
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:39 GMT > It isn't a simple case of "breeders vs. irresponsible owners" though. > It's that third category in there that is responsible for a vast part [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Sherry Yep, that's about the same here; you only occasionally see registered breeders advertise, if they are retiring from breeding usually, but even then we normally sell them to other breeders or enthusiasts. Most of us rehome kittens through the Cat Council website, our own websites, or breeder groups. People who want a pedigree usually contact the Cat Councils (CFA, ACF, etc) and find the breeders that way.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:28 GMT >> And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical >> overpopulation problem that the United States does. > > Perhaps the U.S. should do a little more to promote "ethical ownership"? > (It's not breeders who dump the kid's "summer" pets when vacation time is > over and they leave their summer homes for the city, again!) That's right, and breeders are usually (I know there are some exceptions) very selective about where they send cats, and most desex before sale now. Unfortunately pet shops have 'stock' that is readily available, and encourage backyard breeding....petshops in my area are deperate for purebreds as no breeders will give them any, it's strongly discouraged by the Cat Councils, so it encourages people to try and get purebreds and farm them. I know of at least one woman up here who is backyard breeding a Siamese and a Himalayan.....we think she must have bought them interstate, and bought two different breeds to avoid suspicion....not good, but nothing we can do really, other than ensure all breeders up here know about her....
Marina - 09 Sep 2006 06:31 GMT > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons, > besides the obvious one. But, that said, this forum isn't the place to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical > overpopulation problem that the United States does. I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding for some quirk of nature and promoting a defective gene (like hairlessness) really ticks me off. <snipped start of soapbox rant about genetic defects> Then again, breeds like Siamese and - yes - Russian Blues generally seem to be quite healthy. Of course I'm the proud slave of a purebred cat now, and I marvel at Miranda's beauty and wit every day.
We also don't have a serious cat overpopulation problem here in Finland. I had to get my stray cat all the way from Estonia, for Bast's sake! ;o) There are still irresponsible people who don't speuter their cats here, but it seems that the trend is towards more responsible pet ownership.
 Signature Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/ Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki
tension_on_the_wire - 09 Sep 2006 08:19 GMT > I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is > bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > There are still irresponsible people who don't speuter their cats here, > but it seems that the trend is towards more responsible pet ownership. Hah!! Speuter...how graphic!!
--tension
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 09 Sep 2006 20:00 GMT > I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is > bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding > for some quirk of nature and promoting a defective gene (like > hairlessness) really ticks me off. ARE Sphinx cats the product of a defective gene? How about Rex cats (whihc are almost hairless)? Mexican Hairless dogs are not - they've been around since the Aztecs.
Katrina - 10 Sep 2006 01:01 GMT >> I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is >> bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (whihc are almost hairless)? Mexican Hairless dogs are not - they've > been around since the Aztecs. Well, it depends on how you define "defective gene"... from an evolutionary standpoint, a "defective" gene is one that creates a characteristic or trait which is non-adaptive in a particular environment. If the environment includes living in the wild in cold areas, then yes, hairlessness is a defect (even in Mexican Hairless dogs... can they survive in the wild in the mountains in winter?). Survival with traits like hairlessness in animals that usually have hair is usually associated with human intervention. If the environment is one in which humans protect the animal and keep it warm, then it's not a "defect", and could actually be considered an asset since humans will actually *choose* those who exibit it.
Katrina
 Signature History: special people in special places at special times Anthropology: everyone else the rest of the time -KWorley, 1997
sriddles@aol.com - 10 Sep 2006 01:20 GMT > > I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is > > bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Rex cats (whihc are almost hairless)? Mexican Hairless dogs > are not - they've been around since the Aztecs. AFAIK, yes, the Sphinx cat began as a natural spontaneous mutation. Some human developed the breed from there. Like someone else said, I have a *real problem* with humans who think they should "create" a new breed, or "improve" an existing breed. (cosmetically). Devon Rex was "created" the same way. "Scottish Folds" too. I did notice that in the cat shows, the rosettes started going to the Maine Coons with lynx tips and "furnishings" (hairy ears). Whoa Nellie, the breeders got scurrying trying to breed selectively so that all their litters had lynx tips. It's like the *judges* decide what's favorable insofar as the cats appearance. That can really go awry and the Twisty Cat thing completely scared me. So did the person who advertised a while back trying to start a polydactyl registry. I HOPE that was squashed. Because those things aren't just cosmetic. They have to walk on those feet.
Sherry
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 10 Sep 2006 02:22 GMT > That can really go awry and the Twisty Cat thing completely scared me. > So did the person who advertised a while back trying to start a > polydactyl registry. I HOPE that was squashed. Because those things > aren't just cosmetic. They have to walk on those feet. DO polydactl feet cause problems with walking? I've never had a cat with more than the requisite number of toes - what do those whose cats have more say? (IMO, cats are pretty expert at managing with whatever nature - or humans - have provided them.)
I don't believe in declawing, but having inherited a cat who is, I find her behaviour is no different from any other cat - she kneads and "sharpens" her claws, climbs and jumps as well as any I've ever had. Actually, SHE's the one who always manages to get up into high places none of my other cats ever essayed - like the top of the refrigerator. (I'm STILL scratching my head over that one!)
Will in New Haven - 10 Sep 2006 03:38 GMT > > That can really go awry and the Twisty Cat thing completely scared me. > > So did the person who advertised a while back trying to start a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > cats ever essayed - like the top of the refrigerator. (I'm > STILL scratching my head over that one!)
>From what Feather (RB) used to do, claws have nothing to do with getting to the top of the refrigerator. He learned to do it when my Friend Bruce dropped by with his Aredale Terrorist and Feather felt uncomfortable on the ground. So he simply vanished from his spot on the floor and re-materialized on the top of the refrigorator. _Then_ he threw a hissy-fit, threatening the d*g with dire punishment, if she came up there. By the way, the Airedale was cat-friendly but Feather didn't wanna take chances.
He did it many times once he learned how to beam himself up. My Mom, who just didn't know better, de-clawed WooToo and WooToo gets up and down on things perfectly well for an <overweight> older cat.
Will in New Haven
--
"Don't worry too much about being bluffed. D*gs DO bite." _Poker for Cats_ by Feather
sriddles@aol.com - 10 Sep 2006 04:50 GMT > > That can really go awry and the Twisty Cat thing completely scared me. > > So did the person who advertised a while back trying to start a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > expert at managing with whatever nature - or humans - have > provided them.) Polys usually (IME) have trouble with the extra toes. Nothing major, but the claws on the "extras" don't retract, and they have to be kept clipped or they curl & grow back into the pad. In Yoda's case, he had a claw growing out of nowhere, between two toes. It had to be removed. I didn't even know it was there till he started limping. If I neglect to trim his claws, they curl down and start to ingrow. They're all different. Some have six toes, some have seven. Some have six or seven toes on all feet, some just the front. I can just imagine what would happen if someone like the Twisty Cat lady started trying to breed kittens with more and more toes. (IIRC, the Twisty Cat idiot woman actually started with polydactyls)
Sherry
CATherine - 10 Sep 2006 02:24 GMT >> I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is >> bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Rex cats (whihc are almost hairless)? Mexican Hairless dogs >are not - they've been around since the Aztecs. From my Encyclopedia of Cats:(paraphrased) The modern Sphynx cat was bred as a breed from a hairless kitten born in a normal litter in Ontario in 1966. But hairless kittens have been a mutation in various breeds in many countries. There are stories of hairless kittens in Mexico and South America since the time of the Aztecs.
The Cornish Rex and the Devon Rexare natural mutations that were refined by breeders. The Devon Rex first appeared in Germany in 1946; but wasn't in a breeding program until 1951. The Cornish Rex appeared in 1950 in Cornwall.
The two Rex lines were interbred as an experiment. But only straight hair resulted. The curly coat is a recessive gene; different in each cat. The breeding had to be pursued separately.
The Scottish Fold and the American Curl are natural mutations, also.
-- CATherine
Shiral - 08 Sep 2006 06:29 GMT > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > group, and will miss it heaps, but this is part of my life and I see no > reason to hide it. Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o) My kids happen to be rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred (Pet Quality) if I can ever get the shekels together. WHAT kind of purebred, I don't know except that I'd probably choose a short haired breed for the easier upkeep. There is something about having a stunningly beautiful animal around the house that I can appreciate. I have slightly more problems with cat shows, as that life does not seem to me what any cat in its right mind would choose for itself. But I am equally against human pre-teen beauty pageants. In neither case do I go out and picket the places where such shows are held. =o)
But come right down to it, and all cats are very much their own, honest selves with very definite personalities. Purebreds are no more or less capable of love than a shelter cat, and vice versa. And humans need to earn the love and trust of the cats they bring home with them.
Melissa
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 07:53 GMT > But come right down to it, and all cats are very much their own, honest > selves with very definite personalities. Purebreds are no more or less > capable of love than a shelter cat, and vice versa. And humans need to > earn the love and trust of the cats they bring home with them. > > Melissa Absolutely right. Thanks for your kindness :) Each cat, no matter what breed has it's own personality and the most important thing is picking a cat you will get on with.
Karen - 08 Sep 2006 15:12 GMT > > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some > > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Melissa I think I would like an exotic shorthair, but then siamese are SUCH characters. And I know a guy with three Sphinxes that are total characters. *sigh* That's why it's good there are moggies that just pick us because I don't think I'd ever be able to decide.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:09 GMT > I think I would like an exotic shorthair, but then siamese are SUCH > characters. And I know a guy with three Sphinxes that are total > characters. > *sigh* That's why it's good there are moggies that just pick us because I > don't think I'd ever be able to decide. I'de lurve to get an exotic shorthair too one day....they were developed from the best Siamese stock so they are absolutely stunning cats. Siamese are real purrsonalities for sure....I have to make sure new owners know this and are expecting an active, highly sociable cat who demands attention constantly, and not a pretty couch decoration. The beauty of the Siamese is their personality and intelligence!!
sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 22:21 GMT > > I think I would like an exotic shorthair, but then siamese are SUCH > > characters. And I know a guy with three Sphinxes that are total [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > constantly, and not a pretty couch decoration. The beauty of the Siamese is > their personality and intelligence!! When cat-owners would start bringing in their cats, and "setting up" before show time, you always knew which carriers had the Siamese in the them. They would announce their presence. :-)
Sherry
Enfilade - 08 Sep 2006 18:26 GMT > Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o) While I choose to take in life's castaways, I have no problems with ethical breeders. One of my friends is a breeder of Sloughi dogs, and without people like her, the breed would die out and leave the world the poorer for its passing, IMHO. The fact that you obviously care about your cats and take responsibility for their welfare means that, though I will not buy from you, I will consider it a pleasure to associate with you :)
--Fil
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:45 GMT >> Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > --Fil Thankyou very much :) I am very grateful to be met with such graciousness from everyone. And life's castaways need people like you; Jasmine is still my lucky cat, and I am determined that she has a dream life for the rest of her days, to make up for having a bad start. I feel sad for her, thinking of her kittenhood; her babies, and my other kittens, have such charmed lives; they've never been hungry and cold, never been abused, and lived indoors their whole lives...while I hate to think what her kittenhood was like. She seems to be re-living it now though....she's behaving in the most infantile way with her sons right now.....they have the zoomies, and they are, well, hefty......the house is now in chaos....thanks jasmine!!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 08 Sep 2006 18:30 GMT > Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o) My kids happen to be > rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred > (Pet Quality) if I can ever get the shekels together. WHAT kind of > purebred, I don't know except that I'd probably choose a short haired > breed for the easier upkeep. I'd love to have a Sphinx (they're so wrinkled and ugly they're adorable), but unless I win a lottery, I'll have to be content with my family of plain "cat" cats who managed to find me.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:45 GMT >> Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o) My kids happen to be >> rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > but unless I win a lottery, I'll have to be content with my family of > plain "cat" cats who managed to find me. How much do pedigrees cost in the US? I know in Sydney you are looking at $500 min, more likely $800 to $1000 but up here (Nth Qld) maximum price is $400, which just covers costs.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 09 Sep 2006 02:46 GMT >>>Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o) My kids happen to be >>>rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > $500 min, more likely $800 to $1000 but up here (Nth Qld) maximum price is > $400, which just covers costs. I'd heard they could easily cost $1,000. (Possibly less, now, since they are not quite so rare as they were ten or more years ago.)
meeee - 10 Sep 2006 22:23 GMT >>>>Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o) My kids happen to be >>>>rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'd heard they could easily cost $1,000. (Possibly less, now, since they > are not quite so rare as they were ten or more years ago.) Good because I know for a fact that breeders who charge that amount and say ' I don't make any money out of breeding' would be lying. Unless their vet charges $400 for vaccination.....my charges only just cover costs, and if I have an all-female litter I will lose money. I don't believe in breeding for profit...that's their choice, though.
Joy - 08 Sep 2006 07:44 GMT > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > have enjoyed being part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is > part of my life and I see no reason to hide it. I think by now it's obvious that you won't have to miss the group. One of the things I like about this group is that people can be respectful, even when responding to those with whom they disagree. For the record, I don't have a problem with ethical breeders, although my current two cats come from the shelter. And I have always thought Siamese cats were special, so I don't blame you for wanting to breed them.
Joy
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 08:10 GMT > I think by now it's obvious that you won't have to miss the group. One of > the things I like about this group is that people can be respectful, even [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Joy Yes, and thankyou to everyone for being so nice, I realise there are a lot of different viewpoints on breeding so I am a bit hesitant about talking about it; I'm like that with most things though, I prefer to get to know people before divulging. Everyone here is very accepting though, so I can relax now. And Siamese are very special. Quite mad though!!
Ollie - 08 Sep 2006 13:50 GMT I have Bengals because I love the breed and since they seem to be less allergy provoking I can have two where in the past I've only been able to have one non-Bengal kitty (and I was always sneezing). When we bought our new little boy Tank, we were interviewed by the breeder as much as we were interviewing the potential member of our family. We were required to sign an agreement that he would never be an outside cat and that he would go back to them if we ever had to give him up. He was nuetered before we picked him up. They had originally planned to keep him for a breeder so he was older (8 months) and had been with them for awhile. I noticed his previous family sniffling a little as we left.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:09 GMT :) Thanks for sharing that Ollie! That's a lovely story. The breeder I bought my two from still visits regularly and sits and chats to my two; she missed them so much at first that she visited every other week....I love bengals too...they are a bit hard to find here and very expensive! Are they really as wild as they say? Do they act like little leopards?
>I have Bengals because I love the breed and since they seem to be less > allergy provoking I can have two where in the past I've only been able to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > months) and had been with them for awhile. I noticed his previous family > sniffling a little as we left. Jo Firey - 08 Sep 2006 18:38 GMT >> I think by now it's obvious that you won't have to miss the group. One >> of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > people before divulging. Everyone here is very accepting though, so I can > relax now. And Siamese are very special. Quite mad though!! So now we get to hear about the kittens and you will post pictures at some point right?
I had more fun when we were breeding toy poodles than with about any thing I've ever done in my life. They had a terrific mother so were easy to care for and we would sit and watch them from the time they were born until they were old enough to go to their new homes.
I swear one of these days I'll talk Charlie into letting me foster a pregnant cat. I hope Jake and Molly live forever, but if they don't we will be too old to make a lifetime commitment to a kitten.
Jo
Jo
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 08 Sep 2006 19:05 GMT > I swear one of these days I'll talk Charlie into letting me foster a > pregnant cat. I would love to do this, too. But with 3 already in the house, it seems impractical. Not to mention dangerous. :) (In terms of my in-house feline population, that is.)
Joyce
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:56 GMT > > I swear one of these days I'll talk Charlie into letting me foster a > > pregnant cat. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Joyce Lol yes, I spend a lot of time pulling kittens out of the couch or from odd places...and the boys are utterly terrified of them. It's hilarious; the kittens are so tiny, they fit into your hand, but they are incredibly feisty and playful, and not afraid of anything, and they're always bailing up the boys, trying to play with them!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 09 Sep 2006 02:52 GMT >>I would love to do this, too. But with 3 already in the house, it seems >>impractical. Not to mention dangerous. :) (In terms of my in-house feline [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and playful, and not afraid of anything, and they're always bailing up the > boys, trying to play with them! When Melisande first arrived, she took one look at Patches (a somewhat battle-scarred twenty pound former stray), and fell instantly in love! Whenever he walked in the door, she'd be all over him. (You never saw such a disgusted expression on a cat's face!) He was always gentle with her, though, and ultimately they became the best of friends. (One reason I adopted Cendrillon was because Melisande seemed so lonely, even though it had been over a year since I had to have Patches PTS.)
meeee - 10 Sep 2006 22:28 GMT >>>I would love to do this, too. But with 3 already in the house, it seems >>>impractical. Not to mention dangerous. :) (In terms of my in-house feline [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > adopted Cendrillon was because Melisande seemed so lonely, even though it > had been over a year since I had to have Patches PTS.) Oh, that's so adorable....my boy and girl (siamese) are like that....I got them both together, although they're different ages from different litters, they bonded straight away and are inseperable. He always grooms her and I often find them snuggled up together.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:53 GMT > So now we get to hear about the kittens and you will post pictures at some > point right? Oh, did you have to ask....you'll start me raving about what little angels they are....here's the website
www.pacificsiamese.bravehost.com
I'm doing the pics right now, so if they're not on the 'kittens' page yet, look in 'photo album' and 'my family' and they'll be there!
> I had more fun when we were breeding toy poodles than with about any thing > I've ever done in my life. They had a terrific mother so were easy to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jo EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 08 Sep 2006 18:10 GMT I realize that
> many of you will disagree with me on ethical basis about breeding cats > altogether, but the fact remains that we do. I am not opening this topic in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you cannot stand being in the same room as myself, then so be it, I have > enjoyed my time here and will leave you in peace. Although I believe in desexing ferals and household pets, I wonder if the folk who advocate it for ALL companion animals have ever wondered what would happen if the entire world adopted their beliefs? (Rather like the radical fringe of the animal rights movement, who would free ALL captive animals, with no consideration of how animals who had never lived in the wild could survive there - let alone set free in an urban environment!)
Of course we all bemoan the senseless euthanizing of unwanted pets, but if no dogs or cats were allowed to breed, ever, the world would soon be totally devoid of kittens and puppies! Since humans live much longer than dogs and cats, that might mean our grandchildren would never know the joy of companion animals.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:21 GMT > Although I believe in desexing ferals and household pets, I wonder if the > folk who advocate it for ALL companion animals have ever wondered what [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > dogs and cats, that might mean our grandchildren would never know the joy > of companion animals. Our council is currently discussing mandatory registration of cats, similar to their dog policy. The cost of dog rego,. is $120 for an entire and $20 for a desex, and the animal welfare runs a drive once a year paying for half the price of desexing. Mandatory rego. would be great, as it would also help combat cat hoarding. Most kittens born are 'accidents' and not deliberate.
Cheryl - 09 Sep 2006 05:34 GMT > Of course we all bemoan the senseless euthanizing of > unwanted pets, but if no dogs or cats were allowed to breed, > ever, the world would soon be totally devoid of kittens and > puppies! Even if you, me, everyone we know, and those that know the ones we know, and those that know them ALL spay/neuter and don't breed their animals, the species will not die. Do not fear. :)
 Signature Cheryl
tension_on_the_wire - 09 Sep 2006 08:16 GMT > > Of course we all bemoan the senseless euthanizing of > > unwanted pets, but if no dogs or cats were allowed to breed, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Cheryl Yes indeed. It is refered to as Chaos Theory.
---tension
Christina Websell - 08 Sep 2006 19:00 GMT > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > have enjoyed being part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is > part of my life and I see no reason to hide it. I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred animals/birds/whatever. I bred whippets (not often and very selectively) myself until a few years ago. I still occasionally breed pure bred poultry although I must cut down a lot through ill health.
Some pure breeds of whatever species offer just what someone might want in terms of temperament, behaviour and what they offer in other ways to suit their lifestyle.
I don't agree in any way for anyone to vilify a breeder of a pure bred animal/bird with the view that "the world is overpopulated with animals that need to be rescued" and therefore you shouldn't do it.
Yes. People who decide they would like a pure bred will continue to want one. The adoption of a rescue, well, I can't see it will be affected at all. In some way over-zealous people think that disapproving of the breeding of purebreds will somehow impact on the uptake of rescues homed. It won't.
Tweed
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:59 GMT > I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred > animals/birds/whatever. I bred whippets (not often and very selectively) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Tweed Thankyou Christina, and yes, I agree with you. People come to me because they have 'always wanted a siamese' and you just cannot find them in a shelter; the majority of shelter cats in australia are 'accidental' kittens, dumped or confiscated animals, and victims of kitten mills. I know of one local pet shop that is responsible, as they mainly sell fish and reptiles (which you need a licence for) and no cats or dogs. But I believe a lot of the overcrowding problem would be solved if pet shops, primarily the chain stores, didn't exist.
Jo Firey - 09 Sep 2006 02:10 GMT >> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred >> animals/birds/whatever. I bred whippets (not often and very selectively) [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > believe a lot of the overcrowding problem would be solved if pet shops, > primarily the chain stores, didn't exist. That will give you an idea of the cat population problem in the US. My experience is that about one in thirty shelter cats will be a purebred or close Siamese. You don't see so many Persians types, but I think there are rescue groups that keep an eye out to keep them out of public shelters.
Jo
meeee - 09 Sep 2006 03:00 GMT >>> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred >>> animals/birds/whatever. I bred whippets (not often and very [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Jo OMG that is horrible. Of course I don't work in a shelter (small children you see) but they regularly advertise in papers/internet and I have never seen a purebred of any kind in those ads. There are a lot of pure-bred dogs; possibly Australians prefer dogs? I'm not sure.
sriddles@aol.com - 09 Sep 2006 04:40 GMT > >> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred > >> animals/birds/whatever. I bred whippets (not often and very selectively) [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Jo 1 in 30 sounds about right to me, Jo. Of course, with our un-trained eyes, we really don't know for sure about them, unless they come in with papers. Like this one:
http://members.aol.com/sriddles/persian.jpg
I'm pretty sure she is a persian, or "mostly" persian, from her face. But whether she is purebred is anybody's guess. Siamese are hard to tell, unless you're well-versed wrt breed standards. There are so many masked cats that come in, but some of them may not have a drop of Siamese blood. We got a Devon Rex w/papers once, and a Japanese Bobtail with papers. The rest of the suspected purebreds were either Siamese (old fashioned ones) or Persian or Maine Coon. They were either purebred or very close wannabes. The weird thing is, (and I know this irritates a lot of breeders)....if you hang a "breed" on a cat, like refer to a big furry tabby as a "Maine Coon", it helps them get adopted. It really does.
Sherry
Jo Firey - 09 Sep 2006 06:30 GMT >> >> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred >> >> animals/birds/whatever. I bred whippets (not often and very [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > refer to a big furry tabby as a "Maine Coon", it helps them get > adopted. It really does. When we got Rosie, the breeder was adamant that we register her, even though we would not be breeding her. Said that if she ever needed a home it would increase her chances dramatically. Now this little girl had purebred Siamese show cat written all over her.
We never bothered to register Jake. Henry was register as Firey Henry the First, and Sam was registered as Firey's Dammit Sam. (He was addressed more often as dammit Sam in his first year than he was as just plain Sam.)
Jo
Will in New Haven - 09 Sep 2006 14:53 GMT > >> >> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred > >> >> animals/birds/whatever. I bred whippets (not often and very [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > Jo My friend Ken has a cat with the given name Dewey. However, he answers also to "stop that." It's what he heard.
Will in New Haven
--
"Never try to outstubborn a cat." - Robert Heinlein "I am not stubborn, Mr. Heinlein, I am just in charge." - Feather
tanada - 10 Sep 2006 22:02 GMT >> When we got Rosie, the breeder was adamant that we register her, even >> though [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > My friend Ken has a cat with the given name Dewey. However, he answers > also to "stop that." It's what he heard. For a long time Pine Cone thought his name was "Pine Cone, You Freak!" and would answer to that. He still looks up if he hears himself being called "You Freak" and then gives the person talking the tail and walks off.
Pam S.
Takayuki - 09 Sep 2006 05:54 GMT > I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society. We >breed, sell, and show our cats, but on a much smaller scale than overseas. I personally don't think that responsible breeders are a problem. If breeders were the only source of kittens, that would be great.
If I were a breeder, I'd want to help breed out predilection to diseases like cancer, diabetes, and hyperthyroid, and make happy, healthy pets.
meeee - 10 Sep 2006 22:34 GMT >> I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society. We >>breed, sell, and show our cats, but on a much smaller scale than overseas. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > diseases like cancer, diabetes, and hyperthyroid, and make happy, > healthy pets. Yes, that's what we aim to do. Although we have to be careful who we get breeding cats from; the breeder who gave me my two told me several stories of other breeders deliberatley selling her cats with known genetic or infectious conditions, and warned me to be very careful who I associate with...not all 'ethical' breeders are actually ethical. I struck lucky with this lady; both mine are healthy and disease free, and she doesn't breed the super-fine type with it's associated health problems. We are also allowed to out cross to Orientals and balinese in my state, which means that we have a bigger gene pool to draw from and are able to keep relatively safe from inbreeding.
|
|
|