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Coming clean...

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meeee - 08 Sep 2006 03:34 GMT
Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some
time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy
talking to like minded people without a lot of the superficial judging that
is attached to real life. I am not naiive enough to expect a total lack of
prejudice on usenet; I merely refer to the lack of physical/ethnic etc
prejudice that is less prevalent here and makes it easier for us all to
relate as people. I dislike hiding things, as you can't keep it up for very
long. I have been aware for some time that some of you are involved with
animal cruelty organisations, and noticed, especially in American groups
(not this one so much) that breeding is viewed as evil in all it's forms,
and never mentioned other than critically. However, I am a registered
breeder of Siamese and Balinese (some of you may already be aware of this as
I mentioned my website in other groups). I know a little bit about breeding
in the US from what you have said, and what I have observed during my
research, and it is very different to Australian breeding. I realize that
many of you will disagree with me on ethical basis about breeding cats
altogether, but the fact remains that we do. I am not opening this topic in
order to start a debate, but because I have enjoyed being part of this group
immensely, but cannot continue to take part while ignoring half my family. I
will elaborate briefly on my practises, and if the overall consensus is that
you cannot stand being in the same room as myself, then so be it, I have
enjoyed my time here and will leave you in peace.
   I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society. We
breed, sell, and show our cats, but on a much smaller scale than overseas.
Shows are quite informal and very friendly,with very little 'competitive
spirit' and with a lot of teamwork. Older breeders mentor younger ones
readily, however are usually very selective about who they choose to give a
breeding cat to. Most of us desex kittens before sale as pets; I do, and the
only breeders who don't desex would if they could. Unfortunately vets here
are a bit 'behind the times' and will not desex before the age of 6 months.
There is only one breeder in my city who desexes at 3 months. Breeders who
cannot desex withhold papers until proof of desexing is shown, and can take
a cat back if not desexed. I keep my cats all indoors with me, and my
kittens are raised indoors and with people. I carefully vet would-be owners
and make sure they are educated about their new charge. I educate them if
necessary, and keep in touch to provide support. People who purchase a cat
from me are not buying one in lieu of buying a shelter cat. They are wanting
a Siamese specifically. If anything, people buy a cat from me instead of
buying one from a pet shop. So that is me. They are part of my family, and I
see no reason to pretend to anyone. Feel free to disagree, or question, I
will answer questions but not argue. I have enjoyed being part of this
group, and will miss it heaps, but this is part of my life and I see no
reason to hide it.
Jo Firey - 08 Sep 2006 03:55 GMT
> Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some
> time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> have enjoyed being part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is
> part of my life and I see no reason to hide it.

Now doesn't that feel better?

Just kidding.  Personally, I love Siamese cats.  Not Siamese show cats
particularly, but purebred Siamese cats.  No two of them are alike, but they
are totally different from "ordinary" cats.  We have over a lifetime usually
had one Siamese in residence and one DSH.  The domestics have all been
rescue feral cats.

Without getting into all the arguments, I love beauty in its many and varied
forms.  I think purebred animals embody a form of beauty that would be lost
without careful and dedicated breeders that try to preserve and improve the
lines.

Jake is our fourth Siamese cat.  Each of them has been a wonderful
experience.  One we could not have enjoyed without breeders such as
yourself.

Jo
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 04:14 GMT
> Now doesn't that feel better?
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Jo

Thankyou for being so kind. I understand where people who disagree with
breeding come from, but dislike being tarred with the same brush as breeders
who practise unethical breeding.

I have always wanted a Siamese, for their character as well as beauty, and
try to raise them so people can enjoy them. They are incredible to know, and
watching them grow up is proving to be wonderful. i am actually a very new
breeder, and Cougher has just had her first litter, so i thought i'd just
come clean before I accidentally bubbled over with joy about the kittens and
got flamed by someone. Without putting down my beloved moggies, who are no
less beautiful and interesting than Siamese, in fact someone is trying to
get the Aussie Moggie registered as a distinct breed (Antipodean Shorthair)
I believe it is important to maintain the breeds, especially 'native' breeds
like the Siamese. I am glad to find another Siamese-o-phile; they are not
quite cats, but furry people (well they think they are!!) I will be putting
up kitten pics soon if you want a drool.....:)
Karen - 08 Sep 2006 04:08 GMT
> Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had
> some time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is part of my life
> and I see no reason to hide it.

The main thing people have trouble with is indescriminate backyard
breeders which are no better than puppy mills. Lois on this group also
breeds. I don't consider responsible breeders to be nearly the cause of
the pet overpopulation in the U.S. as I do people who simply don't get
their pets fixed and dumpers. Dumpers reeeeaaally p*ss me off.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 04:52 GMT
> The main thing people have trouble with is indescriminate backyard
> breeders which are no better than puppy mills. Lois on this group also
> breeds. I don't consider responsible breeders to be nearly the cause of
> the pet overpopulation in the U.S. as I do people who simply don't get
> their pets fixed and dumpers. Dumpers reeeeaaally p*ss me off.

Yes I agree. We think someone dumped my Jasmine. I also have rescued several
kittens from similar situations. I am thinking of having my kittens
microchipped in my name so if they are dumped they will be tracked back to
me, but I am still researching the logistics; whether the owner can change
the address etc. Ideally I would like to microchip in my name permanently so
it doesn't matter where they go, they can always be traced back to me. We
keep an eye out in the papers and pet shops for backyard breeders; that way
we can make sure we tell each other and don't give them any of our cats. It
makes me very angry, especially if I found out it had happened to one of my
babies. One of the reasons I never found homes for Jasmine's is that i
couldn't be sure people would look after them; I've put so much effort into
them, as much as my pure breds, but as they are 'free' and don't cost $400
and come with papers, it attracts the people who want a 'free' cat meaning a
worthless and disposable cat. And I was not about to give my boys to anyone
like that....thank god my landlord likes cats!!!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 08 Sep 2006 18:20 GMT
> Yes I agree. We think someone dumped my Jasmine. I also have rescued several
> kittens from similar situations. I am thinking of having my kittens
> microchipped in my name so if they are dumped they will be tracked back to
> me, but I am still researching the logistics; whether the owner can change
> the address etc. Ideally I would like to microchip in my name permanently so
> it doesn't matter where they go, they can always be traced back to me.

Since I'm contemplating a move to another state, and will
not have an address or phone number until I get there and
find and apartment, I asked my vet about microchipping. At
least here, the agency that people call to report finding
the cat maintian a list of several contact numbers,
including that of the original vet inserting the chip. then
so long as you keep them in the loop and notify them and the
agency when you change addresses (or the cat does) it should
work out for you.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:28 GMT
>> Yes I agree. We think someone dumped my Jasmine. I also have rescued
>> several kittens from similar situations. I am thinking of having my
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> keep them in the loop and notify them and the agency when you change
> addresses (or the cat does) it should work out for you.

Thanks for that!! I hope they do that here; I'll be asking the vet when I
take the babies in for desex. in a few months.
Cheryl - 08 Sep 2006 04:09 GMT
> Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline
> I had some time to think about things, and the reason I started
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> altogether, but the fact remains that we do. I am not opening
> this topic in order to start a debate,
[...]

Liz, I am against the breeding of dogs and cats because of over-
population, but there is a time and a place for arguing that. I
don't take every opportunity, like in this group for example, to
stand on my soapbox and scream and point fingers. I have a very
good friend who breeds poodles, and while I'm against it, I respect
her belief that she is helping to improve the breed she loves and
shows. Showing is another activity that gets me a little upset,
depending on how it's done, but I understand that those who show
[dogs or cats or chickens or name-your-favorite] usually have a
deep love of their favorite species/breed, and are dedicated to
trying to eliminate genetic defects. When the line crosses to
abuse/collecting/fraud/lack of caring about the breed in leu of
money, well that's another story.

Please feel free to be yourself. That's all we can be.

Signature

Cheryl

meeee - 08 Sep 2006 04:57 GMT
> Liz, I am against the breeding of dogs and cats because of over-
> population, but there is a time and a place for arguing that. I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Please feel free to be yourself. That's all we can be.

Thankyou Cheryl :) I agree with you on showing; it can cross the line
sometimes, where apparently normal people become temporarily insane. I don't
know what your show are like; I have only been to regional QLd shows where
its more of a get together and look at each other's babies affair; quite low
key and fun. I am totally with you on inappropriate breeding; no one I know
earns any money breeding; and my association is quite strict about ethics; I
had to be vouched for by another breeder who'd checked me out thoroughly
before being allowed to join. Thankyou for being accepting :)
Lois - 08 Sep 2006 04:37 GMT
> Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some
> time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> have enjoyed being part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is
> part of my life and I see no reason to hide it.

Very well put meee, you and I would get on so well, I am a registered
breeder of Burmese, my ethic's are much the same as your's, am fussy where
my "babies" go and desex before leaving home. I have been breeding now for
20 years.
My litter of 5 left home this week, the house is quiet.
Can you put up your web address so I can have a look - thanks

Good luck to you, you are in for fun, laugher and yes from time to time
heartache as you travel this road in your chosen hobby

Best wishes

Lois

Signature

http://zeotropeburmese.kiwiwebhost.net.nz

Burmese are like potato chips, you can't just have one!

meeee - 08 Sep 2006 04:57 GMT
, > Very well put meee, you and I would get on so well, I am a registered
> breeder of Burmese, my ethic's are much the same as your's, am fussy where
> my "babies" go and desex before leaving home. I have been breeding now for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Lois

Thankyou Lois! I have a litter of 6 at the moment; my first litter (aside
from Jasmine's) and so much fun!! I haven't got any pics of the babies up
yet as I just got back online today, but I'll be putting them up tomorrow.
Here's the website;

www.pacificsiamese.bravehost.com

Thanks for your kind words Lois :)

Signature

'Yes, Life,' said the Cat, 'with its dim, delicious half-tones and veiled
indeterminate distances. Its surprisals, escapes, encounters, and dizzying
leaps - its full-throated choruses in honour of the morning star, and its
melting reveries beneath the sun-warmed wall.'
Kipling

Victor Martinez - 08 Sep 2006 05:03 GMT
>     I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society. We

I don't see a problem with ethical breeders. If it weren't for them, I
wouldn't have my beloved Basho, Issa, Maya and Luna!

Signature

Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com

meeee - 08 Sep 2006 06:07 GMT
Thankyou Victor!! :) Remind me again (6 months absence I'm sorry, I've got a
shocking memory) what breeds you have?

>>     I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society.
>> We
>
> I don't see a problem with ethical breeders. If it weren't for them, I
> wouldn't have my beloved Basho, Issa, Maya and Luna!
Victor Martinez - 08 Sep 2006 16:25 GMT
> Thankyou Victor!! :) Remind me again (6 months absence I'm sorry, I've got a
> shocking memory) what breeds you have?

Our purebreds siblings are two tonkinese boys (Basho and Issa) and two
bengal girls (Luna and Maya). We also have 3 gorgeous mutts, brothers
Fez and Rufous (orange tabbies) and our senior guy Xoxo (black and white
DLH).

Signature

Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com

meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:21 GMT
> Our purebreds siblings are two tonkinese boys (Basho and Issa) and two
> bengal girls (Luna and Maya). We also have 3 gorgeous mutts, brothers Fez
> and Rufous (orange tabbies) and our senior guy Xoxo (black and white DLH).

Ah, that's right....I remember telling you I want a bengal one day....DH,
since being converted to catdom by Jasmine and her babies, has been lusting
after bengals.....
sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 05:17 GMT
> Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some
> time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> group, and will miss it heaps, but this is part of my life and I see no
> reason to hide it.

I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons,
besides the obvious one.  But, that said, this forum isn't the place to
get on a soapbox about it, so I don't. My daughter bought a purebred
Maine Coon and showed him for many years. I did go to the shows and
cheered the grandcat on, and managed to keep my mouth shut there, too.
:-)

And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical
overpopulation problem that the United States does.

Sherry
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 06:12 GMT
> I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons,
> besides the obvious one.  But, that said, this forum isn't the place to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Sherry

Thanks for being accepting Sherry. Australia has cat-related problems as
well, but I saw a recent doco on feral cats in the US and it seems your
problem is different. We have an established feral population that has
snowballed in country areas, but in city areas not too many. Australia is
quite harsh in climate so people usually (IME anyway) keep their cats
indoors most of the time. It is more the dogs who suffer.
sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 06:17 GMT
> > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons,
> > besides the obvious one.  But, that said, this forum isn't the place to
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> quite harsh in climate so people usually (IME anyway) keep their cats
> indoors most of the time. It is more the dogs who suffer.

I looked at your website; very nice. You sound very particular about
placement of your babies. I did have a question that I wonder if you
can answer, since you're very knowledgeable about Balinese:
My Frank came from a kitten mill; dozens of little Applehead kittens
(and cats)  in a filthy house. Then there was this one little
longhaired kitten. Looked exactly like the others, but had very long,
Angora-silky fur. Someone told me that's how the Balinese crop up; from
Siamese parents. Is that true?
(of course, it's possible he isn't purebred at all; a lot of the
registration papers they had were bogus. They were horrible breeders of
the worst kind). I'd dig around and try to find a picture of him.

Sherry

Sherry
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 07:48 GMT
>> > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons,
>> > besides the obvious one.  But, that said, this forum isn't the place to
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Sherry

Yes, it's entirely possible. There is some debate about how Balinese began;
some say it is a naturally occurring gene that pops up; others that it is
the result of occasional Siamese/Persian interbreeding. I am inclined to
think it's natural, as Balinese fur texture is so different to Persians.
What was probably the case in the kitten you saw is that there may have been
a Balinese grand-parent or great-grandparent and he was a throwback; in my
state a Balinese/Siamese cross is registered as either balinese or siamese
depending on fur length but in most places it's not allowed.
Will in New Haven - 08 Sep 2006 15:54 GMT
> >> > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons,
> >> > besides the obvious one.  But, that said, this forum isn't the place to
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> state a Balinese/Siamese cross is registered as either balinese or siamese
> depending on fur length but in most places it's not allowed

Four of the six fur-people in our house are Himilayans. As I am sure
you know, that means that they are part Siamese and part Persian,
although Himmies are generally bred to one another now. I think that
the large differences, in fur texture, between the Balinese and the
Himalayan proves you right that the Balinese is a natural variant of
the Siamese. If they were both the result of Persian/Siamese crosses,
wouldn't the fur texture be similar to one another? Solid-color Himmies
are shown as Persians.

Micki bred Himalayans for awhile but she gave it up as her job is too
demanding. She kept two retired mommy-cats, Maggy May, who has
wonderful Siamese markings on a grey background, and Sunrise, a perfect
red solid. She also kept Maggy May's little boy Winnie, a white solid,
because he is adorable and gallant and did not want to leave and Maggy
May's daugher Missy because she hates all primates and has to stay here
where we knew it and loved her anyway. And we know how to handle a
homicidal three-pound cat without going to the emergency room.

Our big cat WooToo came to us when my Mom passed away. She was my Mom's
first non-persian, a large domestic shorthair with some vague Persian
markings.

Anyway, no one here, not even bear the d*g, thinks you are bad because
you breed cats. Of course, Missy hates you but that comes with the
territory.

Will in New Haven
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:21 GMT
> Four of the six fur-people in our house are Himilayans. As I am sure
> you know, that means that they are part Siamese and part Persian,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> wouldn't the fur texture be similar to one another? Solid-color Himmies
> are shown as Persians.

Yes, that's what I reckon too....Balinese fur is very fine and silky,
without the fluff of the Persian based breeds. What are they like
personality
wise? More persian or oriental?

> Micki bred Himalayans for awhile but she gave it up as her job is too
> demanding. She kept two retired mommy-cats, Maggy May, who has
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> where we knew it and loved her anyway. And we know how to handle a
> homicidal three-pound cat without going to the emergency room.

LMAO!! That's the Siamese coming out....my boy Mango adores me, and was
convinced I was his mum from the word go but he view all other hoomins as a
bad
smell he will barely tolerate being in the same room with! He is very sweet
to the
other cats though, especially Cougher and his kittens.

> Our big cat WooToo came to us when my Mom passed away. She was my Mom's
> first non-persian, a large domestic shorthair with some vague Persian
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you breed cats. Of course, Missy hates you but that comes with the
> territory.

Thankyou :) I can handle Missy hating me I think....;) some cats are just
born
with the knowledge that homo sapiens exists only to serve and should not be
noticed outside giving orders and punishing for failing to follow orders...

Signature

'Yes, Life,' said the Cat, 'with its dim, delicious half-tones and veiled
indeterminate distances. Its surprisals, escapes, encounters, and dizzying
leaps - its full-throated choruses in honour of the morning star, and its
melting reveries beneath the sun-warmed wall.'
Kipling

Will in New Haven - 09 Sep 2006 01:22 GMT
> > Four of the six fur-people in our house are Himilayans. As I am sure
> > you know, that means that they are part Siamese and part Persian,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> personality
> wise? More persian or oriental?

They are such individuals it is hard to categorize them. I think Maggy
May, who looks the most Siamese save for her coat, is the most Persian.
Not that she isn't quick and somewhat feisty but she is calmer. Winnie
is a little bit more like a Siamese in build and temperment but he
looks like a slender Persian. Sunrise is a purr-fect, although
unfashionably slim. red Persian with copper-fire eyes but she has a
great deal of the Siamese diva in her. However, our morning
interaction, where she lies on my chest and combs out my beard and
mustache with her claws, does wonders for my grooming. Missy, like her
mom Maggy-May looks like a long-haired Siamese , even moreso because
she is slimmer. Her temperment is loving and sweet, to the other cats
and especially to Bear the d*g. Humans just have to stay away from her.

> > Micki bred Himalayans for awhile but she gave it up as her job is too
> > demanding. She kept two retired mommy-cats, Maggy May, who has
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> with the knowledge that homo sapiens exists only to serve and should not be
> noticed outside giving orders and punishing for failing to follow orders...

If we stay out of her way, we are in no immediate danger. She wuvs Bear
and none of the cats fear him at all. They will humor him and scramble
away if he gives a playful woof but they think he's a teddy-Bear.

Will in New Haven

--
Near this spot are deposited the remains of one who possessed Beauty
without Vanity, Strength without Insolence, Courage without Ferocity,
and all the Virtues of Man, without his Vices.  This Praise, which
would be unmeaning Flattery if inscribed over human ashes, is but a
just tribute to the Memory of Boatswain, a Dog.  ~George Gordon, Lord
Byron, "Inscription on the Monument of a Newfoundland Dog"

> --
> 'Yes, Life,' said the Cat, 'with its dim, delicious half-tones and veiled
> indeterminate distances. Its surprisals, escapes, encounters, and dizzying
> leaps - its full-throated choruses in honour of the morning star, and its
> melting reveries beneath the sun-warmed wall.'
> Kipling
meeee - 09 Sep 2006 01:52 GMT
> They are such individuals it is hard to categorize them. I think Maggy
> May, who looks the most Siamese save for her coat, is the most Persian.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> she is slimmer. Her temperment is loving and sweet, to the other cats
> and especially to Bear the d*g. Humans just have to stay away from her.

Wow you have a mixed bag there! They sound beyoootiful. Interesting that
Missy prefers animals...can't say I blame her though!!

...

> If we stay out of her way, we are in no immediate danger. She wuvs Bear
> and none of the cats fear him at all. They will humor him and scramble
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>> melting reveries beneath the sun-warmed wall.'
>> Kipling
sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 19:52 GMT
> >> > I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons,
> >> > besides the obvious one.  But, that said, this forum isn't the place to
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> state a Balinese/Siamese cross is registered as either balinese or siamese
> depending on fur length but in most places it's not allowed.

I tend to agree with you. Frank's fur is long and fine, but not like
Persian fur at all. It never matts and lays nice, so soft. I found some
pics to show you:

This one he's pretending to be Bast:

http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/frankstatue.jpg

This one shows his face pretty well:

http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/frankgarden.jpg

You can see most of his coat in this one:

http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/kittenfrank.jpg

Sherry
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 23:05 GMT
>> > Sherry
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Sherry

Awwww!!!! he is a real stunner!! Those eyes are to die for. And the coat is
different, isn't it, it looks silkier like Balinese more than persian.
badwilson - 09 Sep 2006 02:01 GMT
>>>>> I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of
>>>>> reasons, besides the obvious one.  But, that said, this forum
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> Sherry

Frank looks like a Birman to me.
Signature

Britta
Purring is an automatic safety valve device for dealing with happiness
overflow.
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

meeee - 09 Sep 2006 03:00 GMT
pretending to be Bast:

>> http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/frankstatue.jpg
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Frank looks like a Birman to me.

I was going to say Himalayan, but I'm not sure on what the names are in the
US; we have different names over here for some breeds. His fur is similar to
the Balinese in that it's not so fluffy, but silky looking but it's a lot
thicker than Balinese, although that might be the colder weather where you
are, I'm not sure. Balinese also tend to have longer fur at their back legs
than front.
badwilson - 09 Sep 2006 15:02 GMT
> pretending to be Bast:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> the colder weather where you are, I'm not sure. Balinese also tend to
> have longer fur at their back legs than front.

This is a Birman:
http://www.cfa.org/breeds/profiles/birman.html
Friends of mine have 2 purebreds and Vino's dad is supposedly one.  They
are very adorable.
Signature

Britta
Purring is an automatic safety valve device for dealing with happiness
overflow.
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

meeee - 10 Sep 2006 22:34 GMT
>> pretending to be Bast:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Friends of mine have 2 purebreds and Vino's dad is supposedly one.  They
> are very adorable.

Wow what an interesting history; I never knew that about the Birman!! They
must have been similar in status in Burma to the siamese in Thailand; a kind
of 'sacred cat'...very interesting.
tanada - 10 Sep 2006 22:11 GMT
> I tend to agree with you. Frank's fur is long and fine, but not like
> Persian fur at all. It never matts and lays nice, so soft. I found some
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/kittenfrank.jpg

Frank is berry bootiful.  And he has a sense of humor as well.

Pam S. who'd love to have a Siamese or reasonable facsimile thereof
tension_on_the_wire - 08 Sep 2006 06:17 GMT
> > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some
> > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Sherry

Nor the critical attitude problem at the shows.  Every cat I have ever
had was a rescue and a worthy one at that.  No matter that the cat was
free, they were of inestimable value to me as friends and companions
and in the most difficult times of my life....they were the only ones
that remained loyal.

Out of curiosity, and to entertain my then four-year-old daughter, we
went to see the American Cat Fancier's Assn International Cat Show, in
Menlo Park, near San Francisco...it was a first for me and her both.
You would think it was the Preakness Stakes or the Kentucky Derby.  The
cats mostly seemed content and happy, I will admit....but the owners
holy moly it would have taken a beer keg of valium to settle these
people down.  You could cut the tension in the room with a blunt butter
knife.  My daughter could not cough in the room without a dozen baleful
evil eyes cast her way, as if the cats could actually have gotten AIDS
from her or something!  The general attitude in the room was that this
was the be-all and end-all of cat-dom and that a lot of these people
really only valued their cats for the prize they might win.  I know it
isn't true, and that many of these people turn into ordinary cat lovers
when they get home but I'll tell you.....they morphed into other
creatures entirely on that day, worse than anything you might see on
Hallowe'en!  In Britain, and I am gathering in Austrailia, and also in
Canada, it is a much more relaxed affair with people realizing the
biggest fun of it is in getting together with other cat owners and
swapping great anecdotes!

---tension
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 07:50 GMT
> Nor the critical attitude problem at the shows.  Every cat I have ever
> had was a rescue and a worthy one at that.  No matter that the cat was
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> ---tension

That doesn't sound like much fun to me; I still haven't heard any of the
breeders being critical of each other's cats at shows, although there was a
lot of,'Did you see her lilac kitten? Absolutely beautiful; I'll be
interested to see how she does' which was very nice!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 08 Sep 2006 18:24 GMT
> And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical
> overpopulation problem that the United States does.

Perhaps the U.S. should do a little more to promote "ethical
ownership"?  (It's not breeders who dump the kid's "summer"
pets when vacation time is over and they leave their summer
homes for the city, again!)
Cheryl Perkins - 08 Sep 2006 19:20 GMT
> Perhaps the U.S. should do a little more to promote "ethical
> ownership"?  (It's not breeders who dump the kid's "summer"
> pets when vacation time is over and they leave their summer
> homes for the city, again!)

If the US is anything like Canada, there are lots of people promoting
responsible pet ownership, but the people who need to listen never seem
to. There are invariably people who don't get their cats and dogs spayed
or neutered and then dump the ones they can't find homes for, and people -
especially highly mobile people like students who maybe don't really have
permission from a landlord to have a pet in the first place - who simply
make no arrangments for their pets when they move. And I've lost count of
the ad campaigns, the interviews with representatives of the SPCA or other
groups etc I've heard all trying to persuade people not to do this and
other stuff, too, like abandoning beagles in the woods if they aren't good
hunters.

Signature

Cheryl

meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:39 GMT
> If the US is anything like Canada, there are lots of people promoting
> responsible pet ownership, but the people who need to listen never seem
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> other stuff, too, like abandoning beagles in the woods if they aren't good
> hunters.

And rural areas are the worst offenders; usually no RSPCA to regulate
anything, or look after abandoned pets, so they are dumped, drowned,
poisoned, hunted, and thousands of other horrible things. As country animals
are usually working animals, cats wander free to control rodents, which is
often useful to people but dangerous for the cat, and dogs are usually guard
or hunting dogs and little else. They are chained, or used to hunt pigs and
ripped open, sometimes fatally. The problem is that no-one cares....and
there is so much of rural Australia that it's very hard to control.
sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 20:00 GMT
> > And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical
> > overpopulation problem that the United States does.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> pets when vacation time is over and they leave their summer
> homes for the city, again!)

It isn't a simple case of "breeders vs. irresponsible owners" though.
It's that third category in there that is responsible for a vast part
of the problem. It's the backyard breeder, the ones who have the
perennial "kittens 4 sale" sign in front of their house.

Aside from passing laws, I don't kniow what else can be done honestly.
We already subsidize neutering for people who can't afford it. We
already preach and preach about it, advertise on the radio, TV and
billboards. And we *still* have the "free kittens" people, and the
kitten mill people. (Kitten millers, BTW, at least here, are almost
always applehead Siamese and Persian. I always thought that was
peculiar. Guess they're just the most common ones.)
And I don't mean the responsible breeders. I don't even know how many
ethical breeders we have, because quite frankly, they don't advertise
in the newspaper, or on posters tacked on telephone poles. Their
kittens are usually already spoken for when they're born, and if
they're not, about the only way to hook up with one is through the cat
shows.

Sherry
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:39 GMT
> It isn't a simple case of "breeders vs. irresponsible owners" though.
> It's that third category in there that is responsible for a vast part
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Sherry

Yep, that's about the same here; you only occasionally see registered
breeders advertise, if they are retiring from breeding usually, but even
then we normally sell them to other breeders or enthusiasts. Most of us
rehome kittens through the Cat Council website, our own websites, or breeder
groups. People who want a pedigree usually contact the Cat Councils (CFA,
ACF, etc) and find the breeders that way.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:28 GMT
>> And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical
>> overpopulation problem that the United States does.
>
> Perhaps the U.S. should do a little more to promote "ethical ownership"?
> (It's not breeders who dump the kid's "summer" pets when vacation time is
> over and they leave their summer homes for the city, again!)

That's right, and breeders are usually (I know there are some exceptions)
very selective about where they send cats, and most desex before sale now.
Unfortunately pet shops have 'stock' that is readily available, and
encourage backyard breeding....petshops in my area are deperate for
purebreds as no breeders will give them any, it's strongly discouraged by
the Cat Councils, so it encourages people to try and get purebreds and farm
them. I know of at least one woman up here who is backyard breeding a
Siamese and a Himalayan.....we think she must have bought them interstate,
and bought two different breeds to avoid suspicion....not good, but nothing
we can do really, other than ensure all breeders up here know about her....
Marina - 09 Sep 2006 06:31 GMT
> I am completely opposed to deliberate breeding for a myriad of reasons,
> besides the obvious one.  But, that said, this forum isn't the place to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> And, too, I do realize that other countries do not have the critical
> overpopulation problem that the United States does.

I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is
bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding
for some quirk of nature and promoting a defective gene (like
hairlessness) really ticks me off. <snipped start of soapbox rant about
genetic defects> Then again, breeds like Siamese and - yes - Russian
Blues generally seem to be quite healthy. Of course I'm the proud slave
of a purebred cat now, and I marvel at Miranda's beauty and wit every day.

We also don't have a serious cat overpopulation problem here in Finland.
I had to get my stray cat all the way from Estonia, for Bast's sake! ;o)
There are still irresponsible people who don't speuter their cats here,
but it seems that the trend is towards more responsible pet ownership.

Signature

Marina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki.
Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

tension_on_the_wire - 09 Sep 2006 08:19 GMT
> I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is
> bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> There are still irresponsible people who don't speuter their cats here,
> but it seems that the trend is towards more responsible pet ownership.

Hah!!  Speuter...how graphic!!

--tension
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 09 Sep 2006 20:00 GMT
> I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is
> bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding
> for some quirk of nature and promoting a defective gene (like
> hairlessness) really ticks me off.

ARE Sphinx cats the product of a defective gene?  How about
Rex cats (whihc are almost hairless)?  Mexican Hairless dogs
are not - they've been around since the Aztecs.
Katrina - 10 Sep 2006 01:01 GMT
>> I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is
>> bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> (whihc are almost hairless)?  Mexican Hairless dogs are not - they've
> been around since the Aztecs.

Well, it depends on how you define "defective gene"...  from an
evolutionary standpoint, a "defective" gene is one that creates a
characteristic or trait which is non-adaptive in a particular
environment.  If the environment includes living in the wild in cold
areas, then yes, hairlessness is a defect (even in Mexican Hairless
dogs... can they survive in the wild in the mountains in winter?).  
Survival with traits like hairlessness in animals that usually have
hair is usually associated with human intervention.  If the environment
is one in which humans protect the animal and keep it warm, then it's
not a "defect", and could actually be considered an asset since humans
will actually *choose* those who exibit it.

Katrina
Signature

History: special people in special places at special times
Anthropology: everyone else the rest of the time
                -KWorley, 1997

sriddles@aol.com - 10 Sep 2006 01:20 GMT
> > I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is
> > bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Rex cats (whihc are almost hairless)?  Mexican Hairless dogs
> are not - they've been around since the Aztecs.

AFAIK, yes, the Sphinx cat began as a natural spontaneous mutation.
Some human developed the breed from there. Like someone else said, I
have a *real problem* with humans who think they should "create" a new
breed, or "improve" an existing breed. (cosmetically). Devon Rex was
"created" the same way. "Scottish Folds" too.
I did notice that in the cat shows, the rosettes started going to the
Maine Coons with lynx tips and "furnishings" (hairy ears). Whoa Nellie,
the breeders got scurrying trying to breed selectively so that all
their litters had lynx tips. It's like the *judges* decide what's
favorable insofar as the cats appearance.
That can really go awry and the Twisty Cat thing completely scared me.
So did the person who advertised a while back trying to start a
polydactyl registry. I HOPE that was squashed. Because those things
aren't just cosmetic. They have to walk on those feet.

Sherry
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 10 Sep 2006 02:22 GMT
> That can really go awry and the Twisty Cat thing completely scared me.
> So did the person who advertised a while back trying to start a
> polydactyl registry. I HOPE that was squashed. Because those things
> aren't just cosmetic. They have to walk on those feet.

DO polydactl feet cause problems with walking?  I've never
had a cat with more than the requisite number of toes - what
do those whose cats have more say?  (IMO, cats are pretty
expert at managing with whatever nature - or humans - have
provided them.)

I don't believe in declawing, but having inherited a cat who
is, I find her behaviour is no different from any other cat
- she kneads and "sharpens" her claws, climbs and jumps as
well as any I've ever had.  Actually, SHE's the one who
always manages to get up into high places none of my other
cats ever essayed - like the top of the refrigerator.  (I'm
STILL scratching my head over that one!)
Will in New Haven - 10 Sep 2006 03:38 GMT
> > That can really go awry and the Twisty Cat thing completely scared me.
> > So did the person who advertised a while back trying to start a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> cats ever essayed - like the top of the refrigerator.  (I'm
> STILL scratching my head over that one!)

>From what Feather (RB) used to do, claws have nothing to do with
getting to the top of the refrigerator. He learned to do it when my
Friend Bruce dropped by with his Aredale Terrorist and Feather felt
uncomfortable on the ground. So he simply vanished from his spot on the
floor and re-materialized on the top of the refrigorator. _Then_ he
threw a hissy-fit, threatening the d*g with dire punishment, if she
came up there. By the way, the Airedale was cat-friendly but Feather
didn't wanna take chances.

He did it many times once he learned how to beam himself up. My Mom,
who just didn't know better, de-clawed WooToo and WooToo gets up and
down on things perfectly well for an <overweight> older cat.

Will in New Haven

--

"Don't worry too much about being bluffed. D*gs DO bite."
_Poker for Cats_ by Feather
sriddles@aol.com - 10 Sep 2006 04:50 GMT
> > That can really go awry and the Twisty Cat thing completely scared me.
> > So did the person who advertised a while back trying to start a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> expert at managing with whatever nature - or humans - have
> provided them.)

Polys usually (IME) have trouble with the extra toes. Nothing major,
but the claws on the "extras" don't retract, and they have to be kept
clipped or they curl & grow back into the pad. In Yoda's case, he had a
claw growing out of nowhere, between two toes. It had to be removed. I
didn't even know it was there till he started limping. If I neglect to
trim his claws, they curl down and start to ingrow.
They're all different. Some have six toes, some have seven. Some have
six or seven toes on all feet, some just the front. I can just imagine
what would happen if someone like the Twisty Cat lady started trying to
breed kittens with more and more toes. (IIRC, the Twisty Cat idiot
woman actually started with polydactyls)

Sherry
CATherine - 10 Sep 2006 02:24 GMT
>> I'm ambiguous about breeding. It depends very much on why the animal is
>> bred. I have a deep-rooted hatred of messing with nature, so breeding
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Rex cats (whihc are almost hairless)?  Mexican Hairless dogs
>are not - they've been around since the Aztecs.

From my Encyclopedia of Cats:(paraphrased)
The modern Sphynx cat was bred as a breed from a hairless kitten born
in a normal litter in Ontario in 1966. But hairless kittens have been
a mutation in various breeds in many countries. There are stories of
hairless kittens in Mexico and South America since the time of the
Aztecs.

The Cornish Rex and the Devon Rexare natural mutations that were
refined by breeders. The Devon Rex first appeared in Germany in 1946;
but wasn't in a breeding program until 1951. The Cornish Rex appeared
in 1950 in Cornwall.

The two Rex lines were interbred as an experiment. But only straight
hair resulted. The curly coat is a recessive gene; different in each
cat. The breeding had to be pursued separately.

The Scottish Fold and the American Curl are natural mutations, also.

--
CATherine
Shiral - 08 Sep 2006 06:29 GMT
> Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some
> time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> group, and will miss it heaps, but this is part of my life and I see no
> reason to hide it.

Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o)  My kids happen to be
rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred
(Pet Quality) if I can ever get the shekels together.  WHAT kind of
purebred, I don't know except that I'd probably choose a short haired
breed for the easier upkeep. There is something about having a
stunningly  beautiful animal around  the house that I can appreciate. I
have slightly more problems with cat shows, as that life does not seem
to me what any cat in its right mind would choose for itself.  But I am
equally against human pre-teen beauty pageants.  In neither case do I
go out and picket the places where such shows are held. =o)

But come right down to it, and all cats are very much their own, honest
selves with very definite personalities. Purebreds are no more or less
capable of love than a shelter cat, and vice versa.  And humans need to
earn the love and trust of the cats they bring home with them.

Melissa
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 07:53 GMT
> But come right down to it, and all cats are very much their own, honest
> selves with very definite personalities. Purebreds are no more or less
> capable of love than a shelter cat, and vice versa.  And humans need to
> earn the love and trust of the cats they bring home with them.
>
> Melissa

Absolutely right. Thanks for your kindness :) Each cat, no matter what breed
has it's own personality and the most important thing is picking a cat you
will get on with.
Karen - 08 Sep 2006 15:12 GMT
> > Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some
> > time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to enjoy
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> Melissa

I think I would like an exotic shorthair, but then siamese are SUCH
characters. And I know a guy with three Sphinxes that are total characters.
*sigh* That's why it's good there are moggies that just pick us because I
don't think I'd ever be able to decide.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:09 GMT
> I think I would like an exotic shorthair, but then siamese are SUCH
> characters. And I know a guy with three Sphinxes that are total
> characters.
> *sigh* That's why it's good there are moggies that just pick us because I
> don't think I'd ever be able to decide.

I'de lurve to get an exotic shorthair too one day....they were developed
from the best Siamese stock so they are absolutely stunning cats. Siamese
are real purrsonalities for sure....I have to make sure new owners know this
and are expecting an active, highly sociable cat who demands attention
constantly, and not a pretty couch decoration. The beauty of the Siamese is
their personality and intelligence!!
sriddles@aol.com - 08 Sep 2006 22:21 GMT
> > I think I would like an exotic shorthair, but then siamese are SUCH
> > characters. And I know a guy with three Sphinxes that are total
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> constantly, and not a pretty couch decoration. The beauty of the Siamese is
> their personality and intelligence!!

When cat-owners would start bringing in their cats, and "setting up"
before show time, you always knew which carriers had the Siamese in the
them. They would announce their presence. :-)

Sherry
Enfilade - 08 Sep 2006 18:26 GMT
> Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o)

While I choose to take in life's castaways, I have no problems with
ethical breeders.  One of my friends is a breeder of Sloughi dogs, and
without people like her, the breed would die out and leave the world
the poorer for its passing, IMHO.  The fact that you obviously care
about your cats and take responsibility for their welfare means that,
though I will not buy from you, I will consider it a pleasure to
associate with you :)

--Fil
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:45 GMT
>> Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o)
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> --Fil

Thankyou very much :) I am very grateful to be met with such graciousness
from everyone. And life's castaways need people like you; Jasmine is still
my lucky cat, and I am determined that she has a dream life for the rest of
her days, to make up for having a bad start. I feel sad for her, thinking of
her kittenhood; her babies, and my other kittens, have such charmed lives;
they've never been hungry and cold, never been abused, and lived indoors
their whole lives...while I hate to think what her kittenhood was like. She
seems to be re-living it now though....she's behaving in the most infantile
way with her sons right now.....they have the zoomies, and they are, well,
hefty......the house is now in chaos....thanks jasmine!!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 08 Sep 2006 18:30 GMT
> Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o)  My kids happen to be
> rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred
> (Pet Quality) if I can ever get the shekels together.  WHAT kind of
> purebred, I don't know except that I'd probably choose a short haired
> breed for the easier upkeep.

I'd love to have a Sphinx (they're so wrinkled and ugly
they're adorable), but unless I win a lottery, I'll have to
be content with my family of plain "cat" cats who managed to
find me.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:45 GMT
>> Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o)  My kids happen to be
>> rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> but unless I win a lottery, I'll have to be content with my family of
> plain "cat" cats who managed to find me.

How much do pedigrees cost in the US? I know in Sydney you are looking at
$500 min, more likely $800 to $1000 but up here (Nth Qld) maximum price is
$400, which just covers costs.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 09 Sep 2006 02:46 GMT
>>>Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o)  My kids happen to be
>>>rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> $500 min, more likely $800 to $1000 but up here (Nth Qld) maximum price is
> $400, which just covers costs.

I'd heard they could easily cost $1,000.  (Possibly less,
now, since they are not quite so rare as they were ten or
more years ago.)
meeee - 10 Sep 2006 22:23 GMT
>>>>Ethical breeders are not a problem for me. =o)  My kids happen to be
>>>>rescue cats from the shelter, but one day, I'd like to have a purebred
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I'd heard they could easily cost $1,000.  (Possibly less, now, since they
> are not quite so rare as they were ten or more years ago.)

Good because I know for a fact that breeders who charge that amount and say
' I don't make any money out of breeding' would be lying. Unless their vet
charges $400 for vaccination.....my charges only just cover costs, and if I
have an all-female litter I will lose money. I don't believe in breeding for
profit...that's their choice, though.
Joy - 08 Sep 2006 07:44 GMT
> Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some
> time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> have enjoyed being part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is
> part of my life and I see no reason to hide it.

I think by now it's obvious that you won't have to miss the group.  One of
the things I like about this group is that people can be respectful, even
when responding to those with whom they disagree.  For the record, I don't
have a problem with ethical breeders, although my current two cats come from
the shelter.  And I have always thought Siamese cats were special, so I
don't blame you for wanting to breed them.

Joy
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 08:10 GMT
> I think by now it's obvious that you won't have to miss the group.  One of
> the things I like about this group is that people can be respectful, even
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Joy

Yes, and thankyou to everyone for being so nice, I realise there are a lot
of different viewpoints on breeding so I am a bit hesitant about talking
about it; I'm like that with most things though, I prefer to get to know
people before divulging. Everyone here is very accepting though, so I can
relax now. And Siamese are very special. Quite mad though!!
Ollie - 08 Sep 2006 13:50 GMT
I have Bengals because I love the breed and since they seem to be less
allergy provoking I can have two where in the past I've only been able to
have one non-Bengal kitty (and I was always sneezing).  When we bought our
new little boy Tank, we were interviewed by the breeder as much as we were
interviewing the potential member of our family.  We were required to sign an
agreement that he would never be an outside cat and that he would go back to
them if we ever had to give him up.  He was nuetered before we picked him up.
They had originally planned to keep him for a breeder so he was older (8
months) and had been with them for awhile.  I noticed his previous family
sniffling a little as we left.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:09 GMT
:) Thanks for sharing that Ollie! That's a lovely story. The breeder I
bought my two from still visits regularly and sits and chats to my two; she
missed them so much at first that she visited every other week....I love
bengals too...they are a bit hard to find here and very expensive! Are they
really as wild as they say? Do they act like little leopards?

>I have Bengals because I love the breed and since they seem to be less
> allergy provoking I can have two where in the past I've only been able to
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> months) and had been with them for awhile.  I noticed his previous family
> sniffling a little as we left.
Jo Firey - 08 Sep 2006 18:38 GMT
>> I think by now it's obvious that you won't have to miss the group.  One
>> of
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> people before divulging. Everyone here is very accepting though, so I can
> relax now. And Siamese are very special. Quite mad though!!

So now we get to hear about the kittens and you will post pictures at some
point right?

I had more fun when we were breeding toy poodles than with about any thing
I've ever done in my life.  They had a terrific mother so were easy to care
for and we would sit and watch them from the time they were born until they
were old enough to go to their new homes.

I swear one of these days I'll talk Charlie into letting me foster a
pregnant cat.  I hope Jake and Molly live forever, but if they don't we will
be too old to make a lifetime commitment to a kitten.

Jo

Jo
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 08 Sep 2006 19:05 GMT
> I swear one of these days I'll talk Charlie into letting me foster a
> pregnant cat.

I would love to do this, too. But with 3 already in the house, it seems
impractical. Not to mention dangerous. :) (In terms of my in-house feline
population, that is.)

Joyce
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:56 GMT
> > I swear one of these days I'll talk Charlie into letting me foster a
> > pregnant cat.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Joyce

Lol yes, I spend a lot of time pulling kittens out of the couch or from odd
places...and the boys are utterly terrified of them. It's hilarious; the
kittens are so tiny, they fit into your hand, but they are incredibly feisty
and playful, and not afraid of anything, and they're always bailing up the
boys, trying to play with them!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 09 Sep 2006 02:52 GMT
>>I would love to do this, too. But with 3 already in the house, it seems
>>impractical. Not to mention dangerous. :) (In terms of my in-house feline
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> and playful, and not afraid of anything, and they're always bailing up the
> boys, trying to play with them!

When Melisande first arrived, she took one look at Patches
(a somewhat battle-scarred twenty pound former stray), and
fell instantly in love!  Whenever he walked in the door,
she'd be all over him.  (You never saw such a disgusted
expression on a cat's face!)  He was always gentle with her,
though, and ultimately they became the best of friends.
(One reason I adopted Cendrillon was because Melisande
seemed so lonely, even though it had been over a year since
I had to have Patches PTS.)
meeee - 10 Sep 2006 22:28 GMT
>>>I would love to do this, too. But with 3 already in the house, it seems
>>>impractical. Not to mention dangerous. :) (In terms of my in-house feline
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> adopted Cendrillon was because Melisande seemed so lonely, even though it
> had been over a year since I had to have Patches PTS.)

Oh, that's so adorable....my boy and girl (siamese) are like that....I got
them both together, although they're different ages from different litters,
they bonded straight away and are inseperable. He always grooms her and I
often find them snuggled up together.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:53 GMT
> So now we get to hear about the kittens and you will post pictures at some
> point right?

Oh, did you have to ask....you'll start me raving about what little angels
they are....here's the website

www.pacificsiamese.bravehost.com

I'm doing the pics right now, so if they're not on the 'kittens' page yet,
look in 'photo album' and 'my family' and they'll be there!
> I had more fun when we were breeding toy poodles than with about any thing
> I've ever done in my life.  They had a terrific mother so were easy to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Jo
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 08 Sep 2006 18:10 GMT
I realize that
> many of you will disagree with me on ethical basis about breeding cats
> altogether, but the fact remains that we do. I am not opening this topic in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you cannot stand being in the same room as myself, then so be it, I have
> enjoyed my time here and will leave you in peace.

Although I believe in desexing ferals and household pets, I
wonder if the folk who advocate it for ALL companion animals
have ever wondered what would happen if the entire world
adopted their beliefs?  (Rather like the radical fringe of
the animal rights movement, who would free ALL captive
animals, with no consideration of how animals who had never
lived in the wild could survive there - let alone set free
in an urban environment!)

Of course we all bemoan the senseless euthanizing of
unwanted pets, but if no dogs or cats were allowed to breed,
ever, the world would soon be totally devoid of kittens and
puppies!  Since humans live much longer than dogs and cats,
that might mean our grandchildren would never know the joy
of companion animals.
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:21 GMT
> Although I believe in desexing ferals and household pets, I wonder if the
> folk who advocate it for ALL companion animals have ever wondered what
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> dogs and cats, that might mean our grandchildren would never know the joy
> of companion animals.

Our council is currently discussing mandatory registration of cats, similar
to their dog policy. The cost of dog rego,. is $120 for an entire and $20
for a desex, and the animal welfare runs a drive once a year paying for half
the price of desexing. Mandatory rego. would be great, as it would also help
combat cat hoarding. Most kittens born are 'accidents' and not deliberate.
Cheryl - 09 Sep 2006 05:34 GMT
> Of course we all bemoan the senseless euthanizing of
> unwanted pets, but if no dogs or cats were allowed to breed,
> ever, the world would soon be totally devoid of kittens and
> puppies!

Even if you, me, everyone we know, and those that know the ones we
know, and those that know them ALL spay/neuter and don't breed their
animals, the species will not die.  Do not fear.  :)

Signature

Cheryl

tension_on_the_wire - 09 Sep 2006 08:16 GMT
> > Of course we all bemoan the senseless euthanizing of
> > unwanted pets, but if no dogs or cats were allowed to breed,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> Cheryl

Yes indeed.  It is refered to as Chaos Theory.

---tension
Christina Websell - 08 Sep 2006 19:00 GMT
> Well, I want to broach a topic with you all. In my time offline I had some
> time to think about things, and the reason I started usenetting was to
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> have enjoyed being part of this group, and will miss it heaps, but this is
> part of my life and I see no reason to hide it.

I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred
animals/birds/whatever.  I bred whippets (not often and very selectively)
myself until a few years ago.  I still occasionally breed pure bred poultry
although I must cut down a lot through ill health.

Some pure breeds of whatever species offer just what someone might want in
terms of temperament, behaviour and what they offer in other ways to suit
their lifestyle.

I don't agree in any way for anyone to vilify a breeder of a pure bred
animal/bird with the view that "the world is overpopulated with animals that
need to be rescued" and therefore you shouldn't do it.

Yes.  People who decide they would like a pure bred will continue to want
one.  The adoption of a rescue, well, I can't see it will be affected at
all.  In some way over-zealous people think that disapproving of the
breeding of purebreds will somehow impact on the uptake of rescues homed.
It won't.

Tweed
meeee - 08 Sep 2006 22:59 GMT
> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred
> animals/birds/whatever.  I bred whippets (not often and very selectively)
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Tweed

Thankyou Christina, and yes, I agree with you. People come to me because
they have 'always wanted a siamese' and you just cannot find them in a
shelter; the majority of shelter cats in australia are 'accidental' kittens,
dumped or confiscated animals, and victims of kitten mills. I know of one
local pet shop that is responsible, as they mainly sell fish and reptiles
(which you need a licence for) and no cats or dogs. But I believe a lot of
the overcrowding problem would be solved if pet shops, primarily the chain
stores, didn't exist.
Jo Firey - 09 Sep 2006 02:10 GMT
>> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred
>> animals/birds/whatever.  I bred whippets (not often and very selectively)
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> believe a lot of the overcrowding problem would be solved if pet shops,
> primarily the chain stores, didn't exist.

That will give you an idea of the cat population problem in the US.  My
experience is that about one in thirty shelter cats will be a purebred or
close Siamese.  You don't see so many Persians types, but I think there are
rescue groups that keep an eye out to keep them out of public shelters.

Jo
meeee - 09 Sep 2006 03:00 GMT
>>> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred
>>> animals/birds/whatever.  I bred whippets (not often and very
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Jo

OMG that is horrible. Of course I don't work in a shelter (small children
you see) but they regularly advertise in papers/internet and I have never
seen a purebred of any kind in those ads. There are a lot of pure-bred dogs;
possibly Australians prefer dogs? I'm not sure.
sriddles@aol.com - 09 Sep 2006 04:40 GMT
> >> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred
> >> animals/birds/whatever.  I bred whippets (not often and very selectively)
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Jo

1 in 30 sounds about right to me, Jo. Of course, with our un-trained
eyes, we really don't know for sure about them, unless they come in
with papers. Like this one:

http://members.aol.com/sriddles/persian.jpg

I'm pretty sure she is a persian, or "mostly" persian, from her face.
But whether she is purebred is anybody's guess. Siamese are hard to
tell, unless you're well-versed wrt breed standards. There are so many
masked cats that come in, but some of them may not have a drop of
Siamese blood. We got a Devon Rex w/papers once, and a Japanese Bobtail
with papers. The rest of the suspected purebreds were either Siamese
(old fashioned ones) or Persian or Maine Coon. They were either
purebred or very close wannabes. The weird thing is, (and I know this
irritates a lot of breeders)....if you hang a "breed" on a cat, like
refer to a big furry tabby as a "Maine Coon", it helps them get
adopted. It really does.

Sherry
Jo Firey - 09 Sep 2006 06:30 GMT
>> >> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred
>> >> animals/birds/whatever.  I bred whippets (not often and very
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> refer to a big furry tabby as a "Maine Coon", it helps them get
> adopted. It really does.

When we got Rosie, the breeder was adamant that we register her, even though
we would not be breeding her.  Said that if she ever needed a home it would
increase her chances dramatically.  Now this little girl had purebred
Siamese show cat written all over her.

We never bothered to register Jake.  Henry was register as Firey Henry the
First, and Sam was registered as Firey's Dammit Sam.  (He was addressed more
often as dammit Sam in his first year than he was as just plain Sam.)

Jo
Will in New Haven - 09 Sep 2006 14:53 GMT
> >> >> I have no problem at all with ethical breeders of pure bred
> >> >> animals/birds/whatever.  I bred whippets (not often and very
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> Jo

My friend Ken has a cat with the given name Dewey. However, he answers
also to "stop that." It's what he heard.

Will in New Haven

--

"Never try to outstubborn a cat." - Robert Heinlein
"I am not stubborn, Mr. Heinlein, I am just in charge." - Feather
tanada - 10 Sep 2006 22:02 GMT
>> When we got Rosie, the breeder was adamant that we register her, even
>> though
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> My friend Ken has a cat with the given name Dewey. However, he answers
> also to "stop that." It's what he heard.

For a long time Pine Cone thought his name was "Pine Cone, You Freak!"  and
would answer to that.  He still looks up if he hears himself being called
"You Freak" and then gives the person talking the tail and walks off.

Pam S.
Takayuki - 09 Sep 2006 05:54 GMT
>    I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society. We
>breed, sell, and show our cats, but on a much smaller scale than overseas.

I personally don't think that responsible breeders are a problem.  If
breeders were the only source of kittens, that would be great.

If I were a breeder, I'd want to help breed out predilection to
diseases like cancer, diabetes, and hyperthyroid, and make happy,
healthy pets.
meeee - 10 Sep 2006 22:34 GMT
>>    I am an ethical breeder, and member of an ethical breeding society. We
>>breed, sell, and show our cats, but on a much smaller scale than overseas.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> diseases like cancer, diabetes, and hyperthyroid, and make happy,
> healthy pets.

Yes, that's what we aim to do. Although we have to be careful who we get
breeding cats from; the breeder who gave me my two told me several stories
of other breeders deliberatley selling her cats with known genetic or
infectious conditions, and warned me to be very careful who I associate
with...not all 'ethical' breeders are actually ethical. I struck lucky with
this lady; both mine are healthy and disease free, and she doesn't breed the
super-fine type with it's associated health problems. We are also allowed to
out cross to Orientals and balinese in my state, which means that we have a
bigger gene pool to draw from and are able to keep relatively safe from
inbreeding.
 
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