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Poppet is home!

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Clangnuts - 11 Jun 2006 11:49 GMT
Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday to
say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been there for
some months, but no one could get near enough to read her tag.

On friday she calmly strolled into the members bar, and jumped up on the
table!

We are keeping her in for a couple of weeks as to make sure she knows where
home is. At least now we have an idea where to go looking for her next time.

Phew - it's hot here and we have to keep all the windows shut for the next
two weeks, but it's good to have her home.

http://clangnuts.blogspot.com/2006/05/love-cats.html

Now I can make Love Cats II :-)

Clangnuts

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Lois - 11 Jun 2006 12:03 GMT
> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday to
> say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been there
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Clangnuts

Great news but I sincerely hope there is not a next time.

Purrs that she settles back in quickly.

Lois
Helen Miles - 11 Jun 2006 13:54 GMT
> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday to
> say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been there for
> some months, but no one could get near enough to read her tag.///

YAY!!

Helen M
Adrian A - 11 Jun 2006 14:20 GMT
> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last
> Friday to say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Clangnuts

That's wonderful news! <g>
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Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
Cats leave pawprints on your heart.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

wafflycat - 11 Jun 2006 17:12 GMT
Excellent news.

Cheers, helen s
kilikini - 11 Jun 2006 17:34 GMT
> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday to
> say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been there for
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> --
> http://clangnuts.blogspot.com/

That's wonderful!  Hugs, kisses, and purrs to Poppet.

kili
Monique Y. Mudama - 11 Jun 2006 17:39 GMT
> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last
> Friday to say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> knows where home is. At least now we have an idea where to go
> looking for her next time.

Wow.  I'm very glad.

Given that she ran off and didn't come back, is there any chance of
converting her to an indoor lifestyle?

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

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Clangnuts - 11 Jun 2006 18:07 GMT
>> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last
>> Friday to say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Given that she ran off and didn't come back, is there any chance of
> converting her to an indoor lifestyle?

No chance. She's an outdoors cat. She climbs the walls if we keep her in for
too long.
Clangnuts
Monique Y. Mudama - 11 Jun 2006 18:52 GMT
> No chance. She's an outdoors cat. She climbs the walls if we keep
> her in for too long.  Clangnuts

Is there any indication of *why* she decided to camp out very close to
your home without returning?

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H. Adam Stevens - 11 Jun 2006 22:43 GMT
"Given that she ran off and didn't come back, is there any chance of
> converting her to an indoor lifestyle?

No chance. She's an outdoors cat. She climbs the walls if we keep her in for
too long.
"

Max said it is better to live absolutely free for six years than to be caged
for an eternity.
Glad Poppet dodged the bullet this time;
Obviously had the sense to ask people for help.
Cherish every little purring head-butt.
You only get so many.
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 11 Jun 2006 23:28 GMT
> Max said it is better to live absolutely free for six years than
> to be caged for an eternity.

This makes sense to me, and Smudge offers an emphatic agreement!

It depends on the cat, really. My other two don't show much interest
in going out, and I'm certainly not going to encourage them in that
direction. I'd rather keep a cat inside where they are safer and will
live longer, but not at the expense of their ability to enjoy life.
There are other considerations besides safety. I think it would be
terribly cruel to keep Smudge indoors all the time. She might end up
having a shorter life because she goes out, but it will be a much
happier one.

Joyce
H. Adam Stevens - 12 Jun 2006 00:56 GMT
> > Max said it is better to live absolutely free for six years than
> > to be caged for an eternity.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Joyce

It's finite either way.
Max would never have been Max without his absolute freedom.
It was like having Mozart and Leonardo around.
Only together in a cat suit.

Rock on Smudge!!

Lucille would literally take a door apart to get back in the house, but
Lucille was another cat.
She is only eclipsed by Max in my 50 years of kitty cats.
And that includes the likes of Woodrow T. Kitty.

Lucille was yet another stray, I named her for Frank Zappa's "Lucille";
And BB King's guitar.
Lucille was a family cat.
Both her humans have college degrees now.

One's a Magna Cum Cat
Or something like that.

And they both have cats of their own.

Cheers
H.
rrb - 12 Jun 2006 03:12 GMT
> No chance.

Have you even tried? If not than give it a try for a month or so. If so
then for how long? Any why did you cave in?

 She's an outdoors cat. She climbs the walls if we keep her in for too
long.

Please define "She climbs the walls if we keep her in for too long."
What exactly does she do? Plus who is in charge you or her? I suggest
getting some Feliway diffusers and maybe the Feliway Spray pumps and
keep her inside. You need to suck it up, and not cave in. I bet once she
realizes you will NOT let her outside she settles down nicely.  But if
she knows you will cave if she does action A, she will continue action
A, because you cave in every time.

> Clangnuts
Adrian A - 12 Jun 2006 08:41 GMT
>> No chance.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>> Clangnuts

Clangnuts lives in the UK. You have to understand that 99% of UK cats are
indoor/outdoor, it is a much safer environment here with almost no
predators. Cats live as long, if not longer, in the UK as anywhere else.
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Monique Y. Mudama - 12 Jun 2006 15:06 GMT
> Clangnuts lives in the UK. You have to understand that 99% of UK
> cats are indoor/outdoor, it is a much safer environment here with
> almost no predators. Cats live as long, if not longer, in the UK as
> anywhere else.

Right.  I want to clarify that my main concern is that the cat was
apparently very nearby for months but didn't want to come home.  That
makes me think that if nothing changes and the cat is let out again, the
same thing is likely to happen.

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

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EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 12 Jun 2006 17:17 GMT
>>Clangnuts lives in the UK. You have to understand that 99% of UK
>>cats are indoor/outdoor, it is a much safer environment here with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> makes me think that if nothing changes and the cat is let out again, the
> same thing is likely to happen.

But now they'll know where to look for her, right?  Also,
cats take a while to learn to recognize a new home.  I had
one who disappeared for a month, when I made the mistake of
letting him out into the patio, shortly after moving.  The
patio walls weren't as high as I'd thought, so he promptly
scaled them.  When he reappeared he was skinny and dirty and
had managed to injure the tip of his tail (requiring
amputation of about an inch of it).  I've always believed he
went in search of his old home, finally gave up, and managed
to find his way back to me.
Helen Miles - 13 Jun 2006 21:59 GMT
Clangnuts lives in the UK. You have to understand that 99% of UK cats
are
> indoor/outdoor, it is a much safer environment here with almost no
> predators. Cats live as long, if not longer, in the UK as anywhere else.

It's also worth noting that in the UK, both the main rescue
organisations (That's RSPCA and Cats Protection) PREFER to rehome cats
to indoor/outdoor homes, although they don't complain at "Indoors only".
They do however advocate keeping cats in at night.

In the USA, the Majority of rescues won't rehome to a home which is not
going to keep cats indoor only.

Speaking from experience, Robbie was sent back to the UK in January so
that he could spend the summer going in and out through the catflap and
using the garden, instead of being stuck as an indoor only cat in the
USA. He *is* much more relaxed and happy because he's allowed out.

I really do appreciate that in the USA, indoor is much safer and indeed,
used the same arguments for my cats when they lived there. I also see
how much happier they are being allowed outside.

Helen M
H. Adam Stevens - 13 Jun 2006 22:06 GMT
snip
> In the USA, the Majority of rescues won't rehome to a home which is not
> going to keep cats indoor only.

Helen
I can't speak to the States as a whole, but here in Central Texas that isn't
true.
Regards
H.

> Speaking from experience, Robbie was sent back to the UK in January so
> that he could spend the summer going in and out through the catflap and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Helen M
Dan M - 13 Jun 2006 22:32 GMT
>> In the USA, the Majority of rescues won't rehome to a home which is not
>> going to keep cats indoor only.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Regards
> H.

It is in our part of southern California.

Dan
H. Adam Stevens - 13 Jun 2006 22:47 GMT
>>> In the USA, the Majority of rescues won't rehome to a home which is not
>>> going to keep cats indoor only.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Dan

There ya go.
Califoria vs Texas.
Things are more diverse in the States than the UK.
I imagine the greater the urban congestion, the more likely they are to
encourage indoor kittys.
Regards
H.
Monique Y. Mudama - 13 Jun 2006 22:54 GMT
>>> In the USA, the Majority of rescues won't rehome to a home which
>>> is not going to keep cats indoor only.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It is in our part of southern California.

Ditto for northern Virginia and western Colorado.

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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Jun 2006 00:27 GMT
> Ditto for northern Virginia and western Colorado.

Yes, well your part of Colorado is Predator Central - no wonder people
keep their kitties indoors!

Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 14 Jun 2006 01:05 GMT
> > Ditto for northern Virginia and western Colorado.
>
> Yes, well your part of Colorado is Predator Central - no wonder
> people keep their kitties indoors!

True, although I suspect it also has a lot to do with Boulder
politics.  It would be interesting to find out if the same rules apply
in Colorado Springs, which I'm told is extremely politically
conservative.

And people don't necessarily keep their kitties indoors; we were
talking about the contracts rescue organizations require before
relinquishing a pet to you!

Anyway, I was just mentioning this as a data point and not to continue
the in/out debate.

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Jun 2006 01:33 GMT
> > Yes, well your part of Colorado is Predator Central - no wonder
> > people keep their kitties indoors!

> True, although I suspect it also has a lot to do with Boulder
> politics.  It would be interesting to find out if the same rules apply
> in Colorado Springs, which I'm told is extremely politically
> conservative.

How do the politics influence predation? Is it like what I was saying
about the book "The Beast in the Garden"?

Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 14 Jun 2006 03:11 GMT
> > > Yes, well your part of Colorado is Predator Central - no wonder
> > > people keep their kitties indoors!
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> How do the politics influence predation? Is it like what I was
> saying about the book "The Beast in the Garden"?

They don't, which is why I said "also" =P

Um, interesting idea with the book.  But I was thinking more along the
lines of, the particular culture of Boulder might be more likely to come
up with things like "cats should be kept indoors," vs. Colorado Springs
which might not.  My best explanation is that Boulder, being fairly
liberal, is going to be concerned with caring properly for pets (ie, our
legislation refers to "guardians", not "owners"), perhaps to the point
of overdoing it ("it's for your own good"), and that would naturally
lead to asking people not to let their cats roam.  Whereas the more
conservative CS might not be so concerned pet care.

I'm a little too tired to explain it well, I guess =/  It makes sense
in my head, and honestly it does so without trying to attach too much
of a "right" or "wrong" to either position.

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Jun 2006 04:12 GMT
> > How do the politics influence predation? Is it like what I was
> > saying about the book "The Beast in the Garden"?

> They don't, which is why I said "also" =P

> Um, interesting idea with the book.  But I was thinking more along the
> lines of, the particular culture of Boulder might be more likely to come
> up with things like "cats should be kept indoors," vs. Colorado Springs
> which might not.

Ah, OK. I thought maybe you were referring to Boulder people being "into
nature" and therefore encouraging everything from rabbits to deer to
coyotes to mountain lions to hang out in their back yards, making it a
rather hazardous environment for pet cats to roam around in. Whereas a
more conservative population might just tell you to shoot the varmints. :)

Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 14 Jun 2006 04:22 GMT
> > Um, interesting idea with the book.  But I was thinking more along
> > the lines of, the particular culture of Boulder might be more
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> in. Whereas a more conservative population might just tell you to
> shoot the varmints. :)

There's that, too.  Although I don't see too many Boulderites thrilled
about wildlife in their back yards.  I think it's just that with park
land so close to the city, it's inevitable that there will be some
interaction.

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H. Adam Stevens - 14 Jun 2006 04:27 GMT
"shoot the varmints"

How satisfying, I once (April of 2002) dropped a running coyote at 700
yards, but spey the varmints and let them loose to defend their territory
works better

> > > How do the politics influence predation? Is it like what I was
> > > saying about the book "The Beast in the Garden"?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 14 Jun 2006 04:44 GMT
> "shoot the varmints"
>
> How satisfying, I once (April of 2002) dropped a running coyote at
> 700 yards, but spey the varmints and let them loose to defend their
> territory works better

I know that there are varying cultures in effect here, but I'd rather
not read about shooting animals being "satisfying" on a pet-oriented
newsgroup =/

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

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H. Adam Stevens - 14 Jun 2006 05:00 GMT
The coyote was eyeing a newborn calf.

Sorry, but I've had rattlesnakes in the house.
Max was quite useful in setting them off, then I dispatched them.
I shall miss his help, fatally perhaps.

Reality.
Deal with it.
H.

>> "shoot the varmints"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> not read about shooting animals being "satisfying" on a pet-oriented
> newsgroup =/
Christina Websell - 13 Jun 2006 23:00 GMT
> Clangnuts lives in the UK. You have to understand that 99% of UK cats
> are
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> used the same arguments for my cats when they lived there. I also see
> how much happier they are being allowed outside.

It's also a cultural thing.  It's normal for USA cats to be kept inside and
normal for UK cats to go outside whenever they want to.
If cats weren't allowed outside here, my two would never had arrived here.
If you asked me if I would have a cat to keep it entirely indoors for all of
its life, I would probably say no: that I didn't have the facilities to keep
one, and so I wouldn't get one.
The USA/UK idea of cat-keeping is very different.
Most of our UK cats go outside daily and come back safely when they've
threatened some wildlife and snooze on the spare bed .  (What, you,
Boyfriend?)
Yeh, me, zzzzz

Tweed
badwilson - 14 Jun 2006 02:36 GMT
> Clangnuts lives in the UK. You have to understand that 99% of UK cats
> are
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Helen M

Yes, I can attest to that.  Vino is like a whole different cat now that
he's allowed outside.  He sleeps for several hours less per day, races
around full speed, is even more playful when *inside*.  He smells like
freshly washed laundry and his fur is thick and pelty.
Of course, I wouldn't let him out of the front door, but am very lucky
to have this fully fenced back yard with a solid wood 9 foot high fence
on the sides and 7 foot high in the front.  I suppose some cats would
attempt to scale that, but I know Vino and he never would be capable of
it.  No reason to anyway, he's very content with the present situation.
Signature

Britta
Purring is an automatic safety valve device for dealing with happiness
overflow.
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 12 Jun 2006 17:09 GMT
>> No chance.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> she knows you will cave if she does action A, she will continue action
> A, because you cave in every time.

WHY do some people insist that, just because THEY believe
all cats should be "indoor only", everyone else must agree
with them?  There have been a number of studies that
indicate cats live healthier, happier lives when they are
free to hunt and spend time outdoors at will.  Many of us
feel that their "quality of life" is better if they can be
allowed to follow their natural inclinations in the matter.
 Of COURSE it depends upon the environment - proximity of
heavy traffic, etc. - but that's something only their people
are in a position to determine!  (Along with the individual
cat's personality - mine were always indoor/outdoor when
possible, but nevertheless I've had cats who never went
outside because they CHOSE to be indoor cats.)
H. Adam Stevens - 13 Jun 2006 21:09 GMT
>>> No chance.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> nevertheless I've had cats who never went outside because they CHOSE to be
> indoor cats.)

"It is better to live for six years in freedom than an eternity in a cage."
-Max

I'm just glad your Poppet found the way home.
Christina Websell - 13 Jun 2006 23:15 GMT
>>>> No chance.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> cage."
> -Max

I think Kitty Farmcat would agree with this.  She has lived wild for a lot
of her life.  She thinks cat food is for emergencies only for when she's
hungry and Boyfriend has not arrived in time with a collared dove or a
mousie.

Tweed
H. Adam Stevens - 13 Jun 2006 23:06 GMT
> "H. Adam Stevens" <hstevens@totalaccess.net> wrote in message
snip
>> "It is better to live for six years in freedom than an eternity in a
>> cage."
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Tweed

Kindred spirits.
Max loved rabbits.
Cheers
H.
CatNipped - 13 Jun 2006 23:40 GMT
>>>>> No chance.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Tweed

Not to put a damper on anyone's enthusiasm, but someone in another thread
asked that we not go into the old indoor/outdoor debate again (and then
proceeded to sing the praises of outdoor life for cats).

I have been keeping quiet about how I feel about this (and so have other
indoor only proponents that I know of here), and will continue to do so, but
the continual promotion of outdoor life for cats is very grating.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.  ;>

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Hugs,

CatNipped

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H. Adam Stevens - 14 Jun 2006 00:06 GMT
I once had a cat named Lucille who literally tore the bottom of the door off
to get back in; Solid core wood exterior door.
She lived a long and very happy life; Almost all of it indoors and it was
her choice.
To each his own, it's just that Max, the cat of a lifetime for me (so far)
was actually wild.
Depends on the cat.
I'll stop now.
H.

>>>>>> No chance.
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.  ;>
CatNipped - 14 Jun 2006 00:16 GMT
>I once had a cat named Lucille who literally tore the bottom of the door
>off to get back in; Solid core wood exterior door.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I'll stop now.
> H.

I haven't met any animal (or human, for that matter) whose behavior I
couldn't change in a week's time.  How your animals (or children) behave
depends on *you*, not them.

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Hugs,

CatNipped

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EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 14 Jun 2006 03:22 GMT
> I haven't met any animal (or human, for that matter) whose behavior I
> couldn't change in a week's time.

Boy, I'm sure glad you're not in a position to change MINE!!!!!!
Adrian A - 14 Jun 2006 10:29 GMT
>> I once had a cat named Lucille who literally tore the bottom of the
>> door off to get back in; Solid core wood exterior door.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> couldn't change in a week's time.  How your animals (or children)
> behave depends on *you*, not them.

If someone kept a child indoors all the time, never letting it outside, it
would rightly be called abuse. Many people outside North America feel the
same about cats.
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Cats leave pawprints on your heart.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

badwilson - 14 Jun 2006 10:58 GMT
>> I once had a cat named Lucille who literally tore the bottom of the
>> door off to get back in; Solid core wood exterior door.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> couldn't change in a week's time.  How your animals (or children)
> behave depends on *you*, not them.

Oh, the arrogance!  Wow, you must be a better woman than I.
When we got Vino, he was 7 weeks old.  He lived in a high rise condo for
the first 3 years of his life and was content with that.  But as soon as
we moved into a house, where he could see the ground outside, he
immediately wanted to be out there.
We never let him out in Thailand because of various dangers.  Someone
was home with him almost all the time, he had plenty of cat condos,
toys, entertainment, potted grass.
But still, he pined at the window for many hours *every single day for 5
years*!  He meowed, he paced, he scratched at the door.  Also, he tried
to escape out the door at every oportunity, often rushing out to the
grass to munch frantically for 5 seconds before we would scoop him up
and bring him in again.
Nothing we did could change his behaviour, so I'm interested in what you
would have done differently.
Not that it matters, he goes out in the back yard now, is 100 times
happier and I am thrilled for him.
Signature

Britta
Purring is an automatic safety valve device for dealing with happiness
overflow.
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

CatNipped - 14 Jun 2006 13:46 GMT
>>> I once had a cat named Lucille who literally tore the bottom of the
>>> door off to get back in; Solid core wood exterior door.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Oh, the arrogance!  Wow, you must be a better woman than I.

Not arrogance, just technique.  I actually learned it in parenting classes -
it's called the "Three Cs" and it's simply Control, Consequences, and
Consistance.  Control of yourself so that the "subject" can not affect
*your* behavior, consequences as in rewarding the behavior you want and
failing to reward the behavior you don't, and consistance to do this *every*
*single* *time*.  Because of the nature of sentient beings (working towards
pleasure and away from that which does not bring pleasure), it works every
time.  It simply the laws of nerve endings.  Every animal, child, or adult
I've used this technique with *voluntarily* changed behavior - even when
they knew that their behavior was being changed.

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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

> When we got Vino, he was 7 weeks old.  He lived in a high rise condo for
> the first 3 years of his life and was content with that.  But as soon as
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Not that it matters, he goes out in the back yard now, is 100 times
> happier and I am thrilled for him.
badwilson - 14 Jun 2006 14:09 GMT
>>>> I once had a cat named Lucille who literally tore the bottom of the
>>>> door off to get back in; Solid core wood exterior door.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> adult I've used this technique with *voluntarily* changed behavior -
> even when they knew that their behavior was being changed.

I bow down before you.  It's really too bad you were not able to come
visit me in Thailand and help me out with my problem with Vino.
Signature

Britta <---- grasshoppa
Purring is an automatic safety valve device for dealing with happiness
overflow.
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

Adrian A - 14 Jun 2006 15:40 GMT
>>>> I once had a cat named Lucille who literally tore the bottom of the
>>>> door off to get back in; Solid core wood exterior door.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> adult I've used this technique with *voluntarily* changed behavior -
> even when they knew that their behavior was being changed.

Does that mean you've stopped your husband smoking? If not then I agree with
Britta.
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CatNipped - 14 Jun 2006 15:45 GMT
>>>>> I once had a cat named Lucille who literally tore the bottom of the
>>>>> door off to get back in; Solid core wood exterior door.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> with
> Britta.

Yes, I have.  ;>

I think I'd better duck out of the argument now, I'm totally out-gunned (and
I have to admit I tend to get on a soapbox when it comes to behavior
modification since it literally saved my son's life).

Signature

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

CatNipped - 14 Jun 2006 00:11 GMT
> WHY do some people insist that, just because THEY believe all cats should
> be "indoor only", everyone else must agree with them?  There have been a
> number of studies that indicate cats live healthier, happier lives when
> they are free to hunt and spend time outdoors at will.  Many of us feel
> that their "quality of life" is better if they can be allowed to follow
> their natural inclinations in the matter.

You haven't referenced any of those "number of studies", so I thought to
reference a few...

Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc
Leslie Larson Cooper, DVM, Diplomate,
American College of Veterinary Behaviorists.

"Cats can be happily kept inside all the time. Many people do so and would
have it no other way. They say they have deeper and more satisfying
relationships with their cats and that those cats are healthier and live
longer. While living happily inside, cats are not getting hit by cars, being
injured in cat fights, catching infections such as feline leukemia virus and
feline immunodeficiency virus (Feline "AIDS"), being stolen, hunting and
possibly killing wildlife, urinating and defecating on neighbors'
properties, and harassing or being harassed by other animals. Clearly there
are many good reasons for permanently keeping cats indoors and outdoors in a
protected area.

An outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat, and stress
leads to a myriad of physical and psychological disorders.  When faced with
a challenge, the cat "gears up"; the heart rate increases, blood flow to the
internal organs increases, and stored sugar is released into the
bloodstream, ready to meet increased demands for energy. Many of these
immediate effects are triggered by the release of the hormone adrenalin from
the adrenal glands. The body is now ready to "fight" or "flee," depending on
the circumstances.  If the challenge persists, other hormones are released,
among them ACTH (adrenocorticotropic hormone) from the pituitary gland. ACTH
in turn causes the release of still more hormones, such as cortisone and
hydrocortisone from the adrenal glands. These hormones help to continue the
supply of energy-sustaining sugars. Finally, should the perceived threat
continue, the previously adaptive system starts to break down.  Chronic
exposure to corticosteroids and other substances can cause organ systems to
start degenerating, resulting in such negative effects as decreased immune
response, stomach ulcers, and decreased growth to name but a few. Variation
in the body's response is based on the type of threat it is exposed to.

Outdoor cats on the street, or even in the country, are faced every day with
territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars,
environmental noises which cause panic, and situations which generate pure
fear and stress. Indoor  cats generally live longer, healthier and happier
lives than outdoor cats - a fact that cannot be disputed."

Peter Neville, world renowned feline behaviorist:
Bristol University, Department of Veterinary Medicine, Langford House,
Langford, Avon BS18 7DU, UK
(Excerpted from: Handbook of Feline Medicine, Willis J, Wolf A; Pergamon
Press, Oxford OX3 OBW, England)

"The human/cat relationship is based on many, often contrasting factors.
Indoors the cat is valued for its cleanliness, affection and playfulness,
and admired for its highly evolved play behaviour. Although not a group
hunter, the cat retains an enormous capacity to be sociable and accepts the
benefits of living in the human family and den without compromising its
self-determining and independent behaviour.

The cat views the members of its human family largely as maternal figures.
In their company, the adult cat continues much of its kitten behaviour, such
as relaxed purring, initiation of playful and affectionate encounters and
willingness to respond to vocal and tactile cues."

Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of
the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and
internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research,
states:

"Its a lot safer to keep cats indoors.  The average lifespan of an indoor
cat is around twelve to fourteen years, while outdoor cats are lucky to
reach double digits.   I personally have lost three cats prematurely to
trauma over the past fifteen years.  Two were struck by vehicles on a fairly
quiet road, and the other was killed by a roaming neighborhood dog. Because
of experiences like this I have certainly had cause to think long and hard
about letting future cats out. At present, our cats remain indoors where
they're safest."

Hugs,

CatNipped
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Jun 2006 00:32 GMT
> > WHY do some people insist that, just because THEY believe all cats should
> > be "indoor only", everyone else must agree with them?  There have been a
> > number of studies that indicate cats live healthier, happier lives when
> > they are free to hunt and spend time outdoors at will.  Many of us feel
> > that their "quality of life" is better if they can be allowed to follow
> > their natural inclinations in the matter.

> You haven't referenced any of those "number of studies", so I thought to
> reference a few...

[snip]

Um... Evelyn was referring to studies that indicate that cats are
healthier and happier *when free to go in and out*. How is it that
you are claiming to reference the studies Evelyn mentioned by listing
studies that claim the opposite? Is this some sort of rhetorical trick?

Not exactly sitting on your hands, are you?

Joyce
Tish Silberbauer - 14 Jun 2006 00:43 GMT
Give it a rest everyone.  
This argument is old and BORING and this line of discussion is not
going to change anyone's mind.  
There are numerous studies that show both sides of the situation and
the only thing that differs between the two groups is the precise
situation of "outdoors".  It might be more fruitful to think about the
relative merits of free roaming vs
outdoors-but-restricted-to-a-yard/enclosure.
You have  to believe that there are places where its perfectly safe to
have indoor/outdoor cats.  Indeed, it is also possible to have
indoor/outdoor cats where you confine them to a yard.  
Likewise, the other half have to believe that there are places where
its inconcievable to allow cats to roam due to the danger for the
cats.

No big deal.  Other things are FAR more important than this debate.  

Tish

> > > WHY do some people insist that, just because THEY believe all cats should
> > > be "indoor only", everyone else must agree with them?  There have been a
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Joyce
CatNipped - 14 Jun 2006 00:51 GMT
> Give it a rest everyone.
> This argument is old and BORING and this line of discussion is not
> going to change anyone's mind.

Oh, most definitely agreed!

> No big deal.  Other things are FAR more important than this debate.

And agree even more to that!

Signature

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

H. Adam Stevens - 14 Jun 2006 02:19 GMT
Thank you!!

Max was a very rare experience as human/cat relations go.

Certainly in urban environments and

*when the cat didn't spend it's first year completely wild in thousands of
acres of woods,*

a big house can be a safe place to get old and have a happy life.

Turns out what killed Max was sepsis which the vet really couldn't pin on
anything.
It kills people who eat raw shellfish from time-to-time.

Sheesh

I just came here to mourn a fine friend, not to debate freedom vs slavery.

Night
H.

PS
I am still glad Poppet is home.

>> Give it a rest everyone.
>> This argument is old and BORING and this line of discussion is not
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> And agree even more to that!
CatNipped - 14 Jun 2006 00:49 GMT
> > > WHY do some people insist that, just because THEY believe all cats
> > > should
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Joyce

I have been *VERY* restrained..... for me!  ;>

Signature

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 14 Jun 2006 03:21 GMT
> You haven't referenced any of those "number of studies", so I thought to
> reference a few...

You're the one who was going to "keep out" of the
indoor/outdoor controversy?  They why make such an
inflamatory post defending your point of view?  I didn't
reference the studies I'd read about, because I didn't want
to keep this idiotic controversy alive.  Why can't you agree
to disagree, as most people here have?   You're not going to
change my mind, I'm not going to change yours, and what you
do with your cats is your own affair.  If I chose to let
mine out whenever I've lived where it was feasible, it was
no one's business but mine.  (And my cats', of course - I
simply made the outdoors acessible to those who wanted to go
out, some of them did not).
CatNipped - 14 Jun 2006 13:50 GMT
>> You haven't referenced any of those "number of studies", so I thought to
>> reference a few...
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> simply made the outdoors acessible to those who wanted to go out, some of
> them did not).

Agreed, and I didn't write anything until about the 20th or 30th unopposed
post singing the praises of outdoor life for a cat.  Sorry, I lost it!  ;>
When one asks not to debate a subject, and then goes on to espouse their
point of view in post after post, it's a bit unfair don't you think?

Signature

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Christina Websell - 15 Jun 2006 23:08 GMT
>> WHY do some people insist that, just because THEY believe all cats should
>> be "indoor only", everyone else must agree with them?  There have been a
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> fear and stress. Indoor  cats generally live longer, healthier and happier
> lives than outdoor cats - a fact that cannot be disputed."

Not in England they don't.  I agree that the outdoor life in America is more
dangerous.
Kitty has somehow managed to live to nearly 20 as an indoor/outdoor cat.
mainly outdoor until the last few years.   Boyfriend managed to survive for
a while as an outdoor cat.  More to do with his inability to hunt enough for
himself at the time that he finally had to give in.
It's so totally different for cats in England.  I don't personally know
anyone who keeps their cats inside.  Oh, I did, until last week.  I have a
work colleague who has a (I forget now, one of those cats that are like
small tigers)  Bengals, that's it!  She kept him in all the time. He was a
nightmare confined to the house.  He accidentally got out and came back
happy.  He is now microchipped and let out supervised; he is not a nightmare
any more.
Tweed
Karen - 11 Jun 2006 19:19 GMT
> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday
> to say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Clangnuts

YEAH! That's a really cute video on your site.
Singh - 11 Jun 2006 23:12 GMT
YIPPEE!!! I love a good reunion story! Glad to see that the Prodigal Kitty has
come back to you.

Blessed be,
Baha

> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday to
> say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been there for
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> --
> http://clangnuts.blogspot.com/
rrb - 12 Jun 2006 03:04 GMT
> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday to
> say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been there for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Phew - it's hot here and we have to keep all the windows shut for the next
> two weeks, but it's good to have her home.

I'm glad that she was found and returned home with any harm to her. You
really should keep her inside from now on!
Jo Firey - 12 Jun 2006 03:48 GMT
>> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday
>> to say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I'm glad that she was found and returned home with any harm to her. You
> really should keep her inside from now on!

Yeah right.  This is why we have agreed to disagree on in vs. out.

I would be a great deal happier if my cats stayed in.  We live in a place
where it is relatively safe for them to go out.  No heavy traffic or
predators.

My cats on the other hand have made it perfectly clear that in only is not
an option.  And they have my DH Charlie on their side.  We compromise by
getting mostly feral rescues that would be hard for anyone to keep in full
time.

Jo
Clangnuts - 12 Jun 2006 12:55 GMT
>>> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday
>>> to say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Jo

We are keeping her in just to get used to the idea of where home is. The
other cat we have is much younger, and a little too boisterous for her. He's
the type of cat that thinks all other cats want to play with him. I suspect
she stays away sometimes just to have a break from her troublesome little
brother, although she would stay away for a week at a time before he was
around.

She's quite happy at the moment staying indoors. She's just sleeping and
eating and generally chillin' out after her big adventure. Our house backs
onto fields, woods and further then that the Golf Course. I suspect that she
stayed away, and then forgot how to get back. There must be 500 acres out
there for her to explore. She's a very independent cat. Everything is on her
terms! She makes the first move when she wants some affection. If we had a
bigger house then maybe keeping her as a house cat would work, but believe
me, this house isn't really big enough for a cat to spend it's whole life.
She was a house cat the first two years of her life, when we lived in a
flat. Once she go used to the outdoors life, there's been no stopping her.

In winter she won't wander far - usually out for just a few hours each time.
I think she prefers the natural diet, she has obviously been eating out
there. She's in surprisingly good health, to say she's had no human contact
for 5 months! We will let her out in a couple of weeks. It's her nature to
be outside. It would be cruel to deny her that which she loves doing.

Thanks for all the support and best wishes. Knowing she's OK, and where she
is going is good.
Clangnuts
polonca12000 - 14 Jun 2006 21:44 GMT
> Poppet has been missing since Febuary - we had a phone call last Friday to
> say she was at the Golf Club 1/4 mile away. Apparently she's been there for
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Clangnuts

I was worried about Poppet since she's been missing for so long. I'm so
glad she is back home now.
Best wishes,
Polonca and Soncek
 
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