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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / May 2006Pls comment on barking dogs letter (OT)
After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors that I plan to print and deliver today (wish I knew their email address... not sure my printer will work, haven't hooked it up in years, ink may be dried out), but first I want to check if you think it is OK. If you got one like it from a neighbor, would it persuade you to correct the problem? If not, why not? See letter at http://fidnet.com/~pdavis/dogs.rtf (WordPad file) Thanks in advance for any feedback. > After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors > that I plan to print and deliver today (wish I knew their email address... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks in advance for any feedback. "Pat" <pdavis@fidnetspam.com> wrote: > After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors > that I plan to print and deliver today (wish I knew their email address... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > See letter at http://fidnet.com/~pdavis/dogs.rtf (WordPad file) I think it's worded in an angry-sounding tone, and would probably be interpreted as unfriendly by your neighbors. I would certainly feel that way if I got that letter from a new neighbor I didn't know. The word "yapping" to describe the dogs' barks sounds negative to me. I realize that you experience it very negatively, but remember that they probably love their dogs and might feel insulted to hear their behavior described in a disrespectful way. So I would change that word to "barking". Also, I don't think it's necessary for you to tell them all the specifics of your sleep problems, which hours you get a second wind, etc. If you just tell them when you need the quiet, that seems reasonable to me. Also, I wouldn't include all that stuff at the end. It sounds like you're ready for a fight, and you want to throw the book at them. Who knows? Maybe their first reaction will be to say how sorry they are, and to do something to keep their dogs quiet. One time, I made more then the usual amount of noise a little too late at night, and a couple of days later, I received a letter, *in the mail*, from my next door neighbor, which detailed the house rules copied from his lease. Considering that we live in the same building and his front door is about 15 feet from my front door, this seemed like overkill and felt much too formal. (We had also met and had several conversations, as he's lived next door for a few years.) It seemed like he was starting a paper trail, in case I turned out to be a jerk about it. But that left me feeling like he didn't even give me a chance to be reasonable about it. As it was, I apologized profusely and was much quieter after that. Anyway, my point is, for the first contact, it's better to assume that the person is going to be reasonable and cooperative, and is simply unaware of how much her dogs are bothering you. That may seem very unlikely to you, but it is still quite possible. Bad relationships with neighbors can be hell, so I would do whatever I could to preserve a good relationship while letting her know that something needs to change. Good luck! Joyce > I think it's worded in an angry-sounding tone, and would probably be > interpreted as unfriendly by your neighbors. I would certainly feel > that way if I got that letter from a new neighbor I didn't know. These folks are new to the neighborhood as well. We moved in about the same time, and have had several friendly encounters. > The word "yapping" to describe the dogs' barks sounds negative to me. > I realize that you experience it very negatively, but remember that > they probably love their dogs and might feel insulted to hear their > behavior described in a disrespectful way. So I would change that word > to "barking". Your point is well taken. I had quite a time choosing the right word to describe what those dogs do, and it really can't by any stretch of the imagination be properly referred to as "barking" unless I want to be dishonest. I considered "yelping" but that implies they are being whipped or something. And "yipping" doesn't quite fit either... nor are they whining or squealing or howling. Yapping is precisely what they do. It sounds exactly like they are saying "yap! yap! yap! yap!" ad infinitum. They are small dogs and the sound is very high-pitched. I guess I'm just having a hard time seeing why the word yapping might be considered disrespectful. > Also, I don't think it's necessary for you to tell them all the > specifics of your sleep problems, which hours you get a second wind, > etc. If you just tell them when you need the quiet, that seems > reasonable to me. I did that to hopefully enable them to understand that the noise doesn't merely keep me awake a little longer than I would like at night but rather is preventing sleep most of the time. I figured it would be more likely to sink in that this is a serious matter that has to be corrected, rather than a silly old lady complaining for the sake of complaining about something. > Also, I wouldn't include all that stuff at the end. It sounds like > you're ready for a fight, and you want to throw the book at them. > Who knows? Maybe their first reaction will be to say how sorry they > are, and to do something to keep their dogs quiet. I did cut that part out of the revised version and now have it down to one page. Have you seen it? >> Also, I don't think it's necessary for you to tell them all the >> specifics of your sleep problems, which hours you get a second [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > has to be corrected, rather than a silly old lady complaining for > the sake of complaining about something. If you haven't sent it yet, I would also agree that they don't need to know about the details of when you can and can't sleep, what specifically lack of sleep does to you, etc. Everyone who's ever had trouble sleeping (ie, just about everyone, period) knows what sleep deprivation does. Besides which, it's immaterial -- even if you slept all day and worked at home all night, it would still be irritating. Besides which, if I got a letter referring to your inability to afford A/C and need to keep the windows open, I would file it under "not my problem." Your inability to afford A/C isn't relevant. It doesn't matter why you have your windows open. I bet you'd hear them through the windows, anyway. What's important is that their dogs are barking, and they need to stop. Keep it focused on their problem; don't give them an easy out where they could say, "Oh, but have you tried this?" Short and simple. I also agree with everyone who has said that this would be a matter much better handled in person, at least initially, but given that you absolutely can't bring yourself to do this, the letter should be as friendly, straight-forward, and short as possible. Dear so and so, I apologize for writing a letter rather than speaking to you in person, but I find it much easier to express myself in writing. While I like your dogs, their barking is keeping me up all night. Could you please keep them in your house so that they don't disturb the neighborhood? Thanks so much, ... I really think that's all that needs to be in the letter. Everything else is just fluff and, because of your mood (understandable -- with no sleep and constantly barking dogs, I'd be at the end of my tether, too), the annoyance will seep into the tone of the letter and make them less inclined to help you out.  Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors > that I plan to print and deliver today (wish I knew their email address... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks in advance for any feedback. Though it may not seem like it sometimes, I've read "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Based on its contents, I'd say that, unless the tone of this letter is altered, it will not have the affect that you seem to desire. While it is succinct and to-the-point, and while I can understand that the problem that you suffer could vex you, I must humbly request that you strive for a more diplomatic tone. I offer my experience as a fiction editor--pro bono--to help you in this if you wish. > Though it may not seem like it sometimes, I've read "How to Win > Friends and Influence People." Based on its contents, I'd say [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > strive for a more diplomatic tone. I offer my experience as > a fiction editor--pro bono--to help you in this if you wish. Offer accepted. But, what's wrong with the tone? It was written in college level English. That was my first thought. SignatureChristopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. . Though it may not seem like it sometimes, I've read "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Based on its contents, I'd say that, unless the tone of this letter is altered, it will not have the affect that you seem to desire. While it is succinct and to-the-point, and while I can understand that the problem that you suffer could vex you, I must humbly request that you strive for a more diplomatic tone. I offer my experience as a fiction editor--pro bono--to help you in this if you wish. > After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors > that I plan to print and deliver today (wish I knew their email address... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks in advance for any feedback. If I got that letter, it would probably just make me angry. The tone "you *must*...etc.) is kind of bossy and mean. They say you can catch more flies with honey, etc.etc. I'd probably knock on the door and say "I'm a real problem sleeping because of the barking. I wanted to ask if there's some way to keep the dogs quiet during the night time hours." If they're receptive, great. If they are not, I'd not say another word or give them another warning. I would then file the complaint and be done with it. Sherry > If I got that letter, it would probably just make me angry. The tone > "you *must*...etc.) is kind of bossy and mean. They say you can catch [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If they are not, I'd not say another word or give them another warning. > I would then file the complaint and be done with it. They would blame others' dogs and say theirs are quiet - like they blamed another dog for the crap left in my yard. Well that other dog is much too small to leave the size of turd I got on my shoe. >> After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors >> that I plan to print and deliver today (wish I knew their email [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > If they are not, I'd not say another word or give them another warning. > I would then file the complaint and be done with it. I'd also add to that conversation. "When I had dogs, the method I used to keep them quiet at night was....., and my friend had success with .........." This shows that you like dogs and understand them, and also that you are willing to help, rather than just complain. I fyou see one of hte dogs, be openly friendly towards it, and say how cute / adorable / lovely it is and pet it lovlingly, even if you are lying through your teeth. Then the neighbours will see you are not a dog-hater. Yowie >> If I got that letter, it would probably just make me angry. The tone >> "you *must*...etc.) is kind of bossy and mean. They say you can catch [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > keep them quiet at night was....., and my friend had success with > .........." Hehehe. I never could keep them quiet at night, and have never known anyone who could keep their dog(s) quiet at night. The best I was ever able do was keep them inside (which these folks have to do anyway). This group next door is being kept in a utility room on the opposite side of the house from where the owners sleep, with the door to the utility room from within the house closed. Obviously, they can't sleep with the dogs in other parts of the house, so they shut them in that room and leave the outside door open with one of those gadgets in the bottom like you use to keep babies from falling down stairs. > This shows that you like dogs and understand them, and also that you are > willing to help, rather than just complain. I fyou see one of hte dogs, be > openly friendly towards it, and say how cute / adorable / lovely it is and > pet it lovlingly, even if you are lying through your teeth. Then the > neighbours will see you are not a dog-hater. I've been out with these dogs on many occasions in the presence of the owners and have petted them profusely, spoken to them, told the owners how adorable they are - and they really ARE adorable, and I really DO love dogs... But I hate it when they bark needlessly and keep me awake. So they know I am not just a dog-hating idiot. > Hehehe. I never could keep them quiet at night, and have never known anyone > who could keep their dog(s) quiet at night. The best I was ever able do was > keep them inside (which these folks have to do anyway). A big "me too" to that. The kids' dog would bark all night, beginning at 10 p.m. She would be the only dog in Moore, Oklahoma that was barking, so we knew there was nothing she was barking *at*. We'd bring her inside, and that would be that. Puppo was just a barker. She barked when she was bored, she barked at the smoke coming off the charcoal grill, and sometimes she just barked to hear herself bark. She was a Doxie. Sherry >> Hehehe. I never could keep them quiet at night, and have never known >> anyone [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > She was a Doxie. > Sherry All my firewalls dug in their heels and refuse to let me see Pat's letter, so good luck w/that, anyway. I saw my now RB Akita in "attack mode" several times during his long (for a large dog) life.....and never did he make one sound before, during, or after. He made "snuffling" noises when playing w/his cat companions but that was it......I guess there are other dogs that don't bark (besides Basenji, who "learn" to bark if around other breeds that bark, LOL) but I only know about the one I had. >All my firewalls dug in their heels and refuse to let me see Pat's letter, >so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Basenji, who "learn" to bark if around other breeds that bark, LOL) >but I only know about the one I had. My father's akita doesn't bark (she can, but choses not to), but she does have an extraordinary range of sounds; comments on the state of things. If my father has been out, she will yodel when he returns; very cute. Tish > All my firewalls dug in their heels and refuse to let me see Pat's letter, Here's the very latest revision, minus my phone number - and note, the people I mention in the first paragraph are the deaf couple who lived here before me. Hello Myles, I just wanted to let you know that the vocalizations of your dogs at various times of the day and night has been causing sleep loss for me. Terry & Donna could handle what I cannot. Do you think it's possible to keep your dogs quiet? My house is quite close to yours and, regrettably, it is not soundproof, nor do I have an air conditioner (can't afford to run one), so in summer if I want to be comfortable inside, I must open the windows at night and close them in the early morning. However, with the windows open at night, and your dogs carrying on, I never get a decent amount of sleep. Moving my bedroom to the far side of the house and keeping the windows closed hasn't worked, the dogs are simply too loud. At night, they only quit after I get my "second wind" and then can't sleep until almost dawn. An hour or so after I finally get to sleep, they start up again, which incites replies from all the dogs in the neighborhood. They quiet down for a while after you get up, which allows me to get a bit more sleep, but I miss the cool part of the day and can't get any work done outside without getting miserably hot, and it‘s hot inside as well. Not that I want to sleep in the daytime, but I do have to get some rest, and soon!!! There comes a point -- I reached it yesterday -- where concern for my own health and welfare takes precedence over being on good terms with neighbors. That's why at about 1:00 AM yesterday morning I closed the door on the east side of your house. I still got very little sleep, and being overly tired, have accomplished next to nothing all weekend. Ava City Ordinance No. 432 reads, in pertinent part, "No person shall own, keep or harbor any dog which by loud, continual or frequent barking, howling or yelping shall annoy or disturb any neighborhood or person ... no violation under this section shall be prosecuted without there first being filed by an injured party a signed complaint formally charging such violator under this section." I'd like very much to solve this problem amicably, with your cooperation a formal complaint will be unnecessary. Please pardon the tone of this letter, as sleep deprivation takes a heavy toll on my diplomacy skills. To better understand my situation, please read "The Deleterious Impact of Exposing People to Chronic Barking" which is published under Section Six at www.barkingdogs.net. Many thanks, Pat P.S. The website www.ultimatebarkcontrol.com has a product that looks like a solution. >>All my firewalls dug in their heels and refuse to let me see Pat's letter, > > Here's the very latest revision, minus my phone number - and note, the > people I mention in the first paragraph are the deaf couple who lived here > before me. That is a novel. I think I'd just use Monique's example, rather than a long drawn out explanation that no one other than your friends are going to be interested in reading. Dear Myles, I'm sorry to bother you, but your dogs are keeping me awaked every night with their barking. Is there some way we can work this problem out? I have tried several possible solutions but none of them have worked. I know that we can work together to solve this problem to all of our satisfaction. Sincerely, Pat >> Hehehe. I never could keep them quiet at night, and have never known >> anyone [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Sherry I swear the thing I may like best about Kayla is she does not bark. (Except when Jake backs her into a corner) When we got her, I asked the breeder for advice to keep a dog from barking, as our last two seemingly never shut up. She said "My dogs do not bark" and she is right. Jo >>> If I got that letter, it would probably just make me angry. The tone >>> "you *must*...etc.) is kind of bossy and mean. They say you can catch [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Hehehe. I never could keep them quiet at night, and have never known > anyone who could keep their dog(s) quiet at night. I seemed to manage it. The most dogs I had at any one time was 11, none of them were allowed to bark in the night (unless in an emergency) so they never did. I don't understand why any owner would allow it. Unless mine had been alerting me to a fire or something they knew very well that they must be quiet at night, and they were. Makes me wonder why these dogs are barking all night, why would they? They ought to be asleep, so why aren't they? Tweed "Christina Websell" wrote > Makes me wonder why these dogs are barking all night, why would they? > They ought to be asleep, so why aren't they? The owners have been leaving that door open so they see/hear every bit of stimulus from outside - cars passing on the street, birds, other critters, people, my cats in the window, whatever, and their response is to YAP incessantly. >> Makes me wonder why these dogs are barking all night, why would >> they? They ought to be asleep, so why aren't they? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > other critters, people, my cats in the window, whatever, and their > response is to YAP incessantly. Seems that's because they haven't been trained not to. I'm with Tweed on this one. There's no reason except laziness on the part of the owner to have an incessently barking dog. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > Makes me wonder why these dogs are barking all night, why would they? They > ought to be asleep, so why aren't they? Usually they seem to bark at each other. Sometimes at night you can hear a canine telegraph: a dog barks and is answered by a distant dog who is answered by a still more distant dog ... and the message is passed across the county. >> Makes me wonder why these dogs are barking all night, why would they? >> They [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > by a distant dog who is answered by a still more distant dog > ... and the message is passed across the county. Yes, I have heard this myself but no way would I have allowed my dogs to do it. Tweed > I seemed to manage it. The most dogs I had at any one time was 11, none of > them were allowed to bark in the night (unless in an emergency) so they [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Tweed The only time Speedy barks is if there is someone in the back yard that he doesn't know. He doesn't even bark when someone is at the front door, just goes over and stands in guard position. Whoever dumped him on I-95 trained him well first. Pam S. > Hehehe. I never could keep them quiet at night, and have never known > anyone who could keep their dog(s) quiet at night. The best I was > ever able do was keep them inside (which these folks have to do > anyway). Odd. Puma spent many evenings indoors, but even when he slept outdoors he rarely barked. What's so exciting out there that they're barking all the time? Maybe the difference is that there was only one of him, no other dogs to contend with? Or the more rural setting? We were in the suburbs, but there were plenty of squirrels around, and certainly other animals here and there. I grew up in a neighborhood with an extremely strict covenant; a dog barking all night would have gotten the owners into deep (expensive) trouble, and I don't recall it ever being a problem for anyone. Seems like this is a matter of behavioral training, and they haven't bothered with it. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >> Hehehe. I never could keep them quiet at night, and have never known >> anyone who could keep their dog(s) quiet at night. The best I was [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Seems like this is a matter of behavioral training, and they haven't > bothered with it. Well, in the dogs defense, they are new in the neighborhood too and I'd guess strange sounds and sights are keeping them awake. Only dogs we couldn't shut up was when we had two small poodles that were litter mates. One would think she heard something, and yip. The other would take that as a signal to rouse the troops and yap. That would confirm the first ones fears and she would bark. By now neither of them can hear anything but each other but both are convinced they are in imminent danger. And are in full alert. And that was enough to rouse all the dogs in the neighborhood who then got blamed for all the racket. Now these were 4 lb poodles and they slept with us. If I had it to do over today, I'd never keep twins. Too hard to train both at the same time as you seldom are sure who misbehaved. Both were very well trained in obedience. But you can separate them to do that. And I don't know if they make shock collars that small, but while I don't like the idea of them, I'd try it before I went through 20 more years of that infernal barking. Charlie has been threatening to get a shock collar for Kayla to make her leave the cats alone. Yesterday for the first time I was able to get her to sit quietly off leash while the cats walked across the room in front of her. We're getting there Jo > Well, in the dogs defense, they are new in the neighborhood too and > I'd guess strange sounds and sights are keeping them awake. Yeah, that could be, I suppose. Maybe they just need more attention and exercise during the day so that they're less energetic at night. > Charlie has been threatening to get a shock collar for Kayla to make > her leave the cats alone. Yesterday for the first time I was able > to get her to sit quietly off leash while the cats walked across the > room in front of her. We're getting there Nice. It's slow, but so rewarding ... Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors > that I plan to print and deliver today (wish I knew their email address... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks in advance for any feedback. It would be more my style to just tell my neighbors that their dogs are keeping me up at night. But that's just me. I don't hear well enough anymore for a barking dog at night to be a problem either. Maybe they don't hear it and don't realize how bothersome it can be. In any case, if I were going to write to them, I'd start with a short note to make them aware there is a problem and asking for some help in resolving it. ie. Your dogs are keeping me awake and I can't sleep with the windows closed. Then again I'd be pretty quick to call animal control if that didn't solve the problem. Jo >After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors >that I plan to print and deliver today (wish I knew their email address... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Thanks in advance for any feedback. I think I would vote with the other respondents, here. Just let them know there's a problem. If they're receptive and try to deal with it, great. If not, file the complaint and let the city handle it. I would keep track of when the dogs are barking, and when I spoke/contacted them about it. A letter is fine as a contact if you don't feel comfortable knocking on their door. (I wouldn't..). As a stopgap measure in the meantime, try ear plugs and/or a fan for white noise. I've used both effectively before, when I lived in apartments. --Kim > I think I would vote with the other respondents, here. Just let them > know there's a problem. If they're receptive and try to deal with it, > great. If not, file the complaint and let the city handle it. I > would keep track of when the dogs are barking, and when I > spoke/contacted them about it. A letter is fine as a contact if you > don't feel comfortable knocking on their door. (I wouldn't..). I don't feel comfortable facing them. It's real hard for me to confront anyone. > stopgap measure in the meantime, try ear plugs and/or a fan for white > noise. I've used both effectively before, when I lived in apartments. Couldn't find a fan last night after searching for an hour. Same story on the earplugs. I've got four fans (two are quite large) and at least a dozen sets of earplugs. Somewhere.... Amazing, isn't it, to be unable to find a BOX FAN? > I don't feel comfortable facing them. It's real hard for me to confront > anyone. Pat, for what it's worth, I'm the same way. In my case it's possibly paralyzing. I am deathly afraid of confrontation and will go to ridiculous lengths to avoid it. Dan > After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors <snip> > See letter at http://fidnet.com/~pdavis/dogs.rtf (WordPad file) Pat, I understand your problem with not sleeping with barking dogs next door. However, the tone of the letter is confrontational. I agree with several others on the group who suggested starting with a shorter letter, stating that you are having problems sleeping because of the barking dogs in the room across from you. Try asking them if they have a solution that would be be acceptable and resolve this issue before it becomes worse. People tend to respond better when they are asked to help solve or explain the problem than if they are told to do something because it a) is the right thing to do, or b) there is an ordinance against xyz. I do understand about not wanting to confront the people, I don't like to do it either. If you want to meet them face to face, you might try something like, I've been having a hard time sleeping. It seems as if your dogs are barking frequently during the night, is there something I can do to help you with keeping them quiet? Just a couple of suggestions, that were learned while I was a facilitator. Diane >> After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Just a couple of suggestions, that were learned while I was a facilitator. Well said. I tend to be a confrontation type person. It was very hard for me to learn to ask someone for help in solving a problem rather than telling them how to solve a problem. But even I eventually learned what works. Jo >> I understand your problem with not sleeping with barking dogs next door. >> However, the tone of the letter is confrontational. I agree with several [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> Just a couple of suggestions, that were learned while I was a >> facilitator. > Well said. I tend to be a confrontation type person. It was very hard > for me to learn to ask someone for help in solving a problem rather than > telling them how to solve a problem. But even I eventually learned what > works. The technique you're describing is a good one, for sure, but I'm having trouble seeing an honest way to adapt it to this situation. I really cannot nor do I wish to help these people keep their dogs quiet. What on earth could I do, aside from strapping muzzles on their faces or shooting them? The only reasonable thing I could think of doing to help them was to suggest would be that special collar product, so I included information about it. If someone asked me if they could help me find a way to silence my dogs, I would be looking askance at them and thinking "Don't even hint at interfering with my dogs!" OK I've whittled the letter down quite a bit and tried to make it more friendly, less confrontational. This is probably the best I can do without some actual writing help. Hope it passes muster now. Actually I'm hoping that they got the message already when they found that door closed this morning, and I won't even need to send a letter. > After yet another sleepless night, I've written a letter to my neighbors > that I plan to print and deliver today (wish I knew their email address... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks in advance for any feedback. Hmm. I wouldn't want to get a letter like this myself from a neighbour. I would prefer if they knocked on my door and said " your dogs are barking all night and keeping me awake, can we sort this out together somehow?" Otherwise send a letter in the same tone, can we sort it out between ourselves? If I had a letter that seemed threatening to report me to the authorities before we'd been talking about how we might sort this out I would be very annoyed and probably not very co-operative. Tweed > Hmm. I wouldn't want to get a letter like this myself from a neighbour. > I would prefer if they knocked on my door and said " your dogs are barking [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > before we'd been talking about how we might sort this out I would be very > annoyed and probably not very co-operative. OK I've changed the letter one more time and I think now it ought to be found acceptable to all. Please do re-read and let me know! Thanks again. P.S. May need to refresh page to see current version! Kept working on it for another half hour after last post here so if you read it in the last 30 minutes go back again. I changed it about 20 times more! > Kept working on it for another half hour after last post here so if > you read it in the last 30 minutes go back again. I changed it about > 20 times more! I'd forget the letter and just go over, knock on the door, smile and say "Hi, you're dogs are are keeping me awake at night. Is there anything you can do?" Jill > I'd forget the letter and just go over, knock on the door, smile and say > "Hi, you're dogs are are keeping me awake at night. Is there anything you > can do?" If only I had the gumption! I think I'm an eternal wimp when it comes to in-person confrontations. I don't even like to try something like this on the phone! > > I'd forget the letter and just go over, knock on the door, smile and say > > "Hi, you're dogs are are keeping me awake at night. Is there anything you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in-person confrontations. I don't even like to try something like this on > the phone! You could try this: Bake (or buy) a cake, go over and invite them to morning / afternoon tea "to get to know each other". Talk to them, get to know them. Whilst having a nice conversation, ask about their dogs. What sort are they? How many do they have? How did they get them? etc etc. Mention that they seem to bark alot, and wonder if they've had any complaints from the neighbours about it. Keep it casual & friendly. Then keep talking about other stuff, not making any fuss over it at all. Not confrontational in the slightest. If that doesn't work, mention it specifically next time you talk to them. And only after that, put it in writing. If I got a letter from my neighbour, even the friendliest letter, I'd wonder why the heck they'd be putting things in writing before telling me about it to my face. Putting things in writing seems to be .... far too formal, IMHO. Yowie Yowie > You could try this: Bake (or buy) a cake, go over and invite them to > morning > / afternoon tea "to get to know each other". They both work during the day. They watch TV at night and do NOT like to be disturbed. > Talk to them, get to know them. We've been through this part already. > Whilst having a nice conversation, ask about their dogs. What sort are > they? > How many do they have? Two Bichon Frisés and one mutt (part Aus. Shepherd, part Lab). > How did they get them? etc etc. Mention that they > seem to bark alot, and wonder if they've had any complaints from the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And only after that, put it in writing. Honey, I'll be dead from sleep deprivation LONG before I could accomplish all of the above!!! > If I got a letter from my neighbour, even the friendliest letter, I'd > wonder > why the heck they'd be putting things in writing before telling me about > it > to my face. Putting things in writing seems to be .... far too formal, > IMHO. I know, I'd feel the same way, but still I cannot repeat CAN NOT confront anyone to their face about ANYTHING. <snip> > > And only after that, put it in writing. > > Honey, I'll be dead from sleep deprivation LONG before I could accomplish > all of the above!!! Fair enough. > > If I got a letter from my neighbour, even the friendliest letter, I'd > > wonder [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I know, I'd feel the same way, but still I cannot repeat CAN NOT confront > anyone to their face about ANYTHING. I hate confrontation too. Can't stand it. Makes me want to puke even thinking about it. I have learnt however, that its a necessary evil, particularly when I have to stand up for Cary. May I humbly suggest that you do a bit of assertiveness training if you get a chance. Its not about being agressive or pushy, but rather, being confident enough in yourself to not be treated like a doormat and knowing how to make a stand when you are being mistreated. *You* are worth it. Anyway, onto the question at hand: could you start the letter "I'd have liked to chat to you about this, but would feel uncomfortable doing so because I am really very shy"? That way, it explains why there's a letter rather than a usual friendly chat over the fence. If I received a letter that started like that, at least I would understand that the letter format wasn't because someone had got all formal on my arse, but because they had an issue with confrontation. If you already get along with them reasonably well, it would probably put them more at ease than a sudden 'written notification'. Good luck, we'll be purring for you. Yowie > I hate confrontation too. Can't stand it. Makes me want to puke even > thinking about it. I have learnt however, that its a necessary evil, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > treated like a doormat and knowing how to make a stand when you are being > mistreated. *You* are worth it. Good idea, little chance of implementation, due to lack of opportunity. > Anyway, onto the question at hand: could you start the letter "I'd have > liked to chat to you about this, but would feel uncomfortable doing so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > well, it would probably put them more at ease than a sudden 'written > notification'. Will do that. Thanks. > Good luck, we'll be purring for you. Thanks! > > I hate confrontation too. Can't stand it. Makes me want to puke even > > thinking about it. I have learnt however, that its a necessary evil, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Good idea, little chance of implementation, due to lack of opportunity. Just had a poke around on-line and thought that checking out this web page wouldn't hurt: http://www.confidenceclub.net/ This is the description of myself, which is surprisingly right: " You are a crusader. When you believe in a particular course of action, you are not afraid to make your views known. You perform at your best with an audience. You would describe yourself as 'shy', and identify closely with performers who use their performances to obscure their shyness and insecurity. People notice you. You are not afraid to take charge of difficult situations when you feel that this is necessary. Your personal qualities seem contradictory to some of your friends and colleagues; they have difficulty understanding how you can have such presence, and yet also project so much insecurity. You can achieve significant gains in your personal life and career through personal development. Improved interpersonal skills will help you to form and sustain personal relationships which bring you joy. You have the capability to become a leader; by enhancing your sense of self worth you may find that you become a better listener, more empathic to the needs of others. This increased awareness of, and responsiveness to, the emotional state of others can help you to manage working relationships with a much lighter, more assured, touch. " I used to be a depressed doormat. Whilst there are a myriad of things that helped, this group is partially responsible for that change. Self confidence is *so* important, and people enjoying the stproes I"ve written helped so so much (They'll never know how much). I still consider myself shy naturally, but if I *have* to be assertive, or do public speaking, or be a leader, then I can be. I don't *like* it, but I can do it. Yowie > http://www.confidenceclub.net/ I checked it out. It's partly definitely right and partly definitely wrong, for me =P (The major statements are right, but the analysis of some of the details is wrong.) But then, I was wishy washy about which of some of the answers I would choose -- depends on the day =) Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > > I'd forget the letter and just go over, knock on the door, smile and say > > "Hi, you're dogs are are keeping me awake at night. Is there anything you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in-person confrontations. I don't even like to try something like this on > the phone! Oh, I understand that. I am the same way sort of. Only sometimes I prefer letters because for some reason I am way more articulate in writing than in person. In person, I get flustered and get intimidated easily. I liked your second letter a lot better. I think leave out the city ordinance and weblink. That way, it just sounds more friendly and not threatening. They're bound to know there exists a city ordinance. You should not have to warn them. And still, if they don't do something after the letter, I'd file the complaint. Sherry > They're bound to know there exists a city ordinance. You should not > have to warn them. I'm sure they either don't know about it or don't think I'd ever try to get it enforced on them. I had hoped maybe they got the message via my shutting their utility room door, but I see it is open again, with the little gate across the bottom. Another night without sleep just might finish me off. So if I disappear off this group, you'll know why. >> I'd forget the letter and just go over, knock on the door, smile and >> say "Hi, you're dogs are are keeping me awake at night. Is there [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to in-person confrontations. I don't even like to try something like > this on the phone! I don't like personal confrontations, either, but really. A letter is a bit riduculous. Just go over there and say "hi". What are they going to do, shoot you? It's just a neighbor, unless you're trying to shut down their still... in which case I'd move to another town! Jill >> I'd forget the letter and just go over, knock on the door, smile and say >> "Hi, you're dogs are are keeping me awake at night. Is there anything you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in-person confrontations. I don't even like to try something like this on > the phone! In 1899 Elbert Hubbard wrote a small book entitled "A Letter to Garcia". I wish you would do a computer search or go to the library and find this book. It is worth reading. MLB May 28, 2006 Dear Mr./Mrs. Walsh: The vocalizations of your dogs at various times of the day and night has been causing sleep deprivation for me. Do you think you could find a way to keep them quiet? CY: Most folks don't talk, or write at college level. How about "Your barking dogs are making it impossible for me to sleep." My house is quite close to yours and, regrettably, it is not soundproof, nor do I have an air conditioner, so in summer if I want to be comfortable inside, I must open the windows at night and close them in the early morning. However, with the windows open at night, and your dogs carrying on, I never get a decent amount of sleep. CY: How about "As hot as it is, I open my windows at night. The sound from the dogs barking is very loud, and keeps me awake." Even keeping the windows closed and moving my bedroom to the other side of the house hasn't worked, the dogs are simply too loud. At night they only quit after I get my "second wind" and then can't sleep for hours, and then an hour or two after I finally get to sleep, they start up again, which incites replies from all the dogs in the neighborhood. CY: This is good. Shows that you've tried to solve the problem yourself, without bothering them. After you get up they quiet down for a while, which allows me to get a bit more sleep, but I miss the cool part of the day and can't get any work done outside without getting miserably hot, and it's hot inside as well. Not that I want to sleep in the daytime, but I do have to get some rest, and soon!!! CY: Also good. While I vastly prefer to be on good terms with neighbors, there comes a point -- I reached it yesterday -- where concern for my own health and welfare take precedence. That's why this morning at about 1:00 I closed the door on the east side of your house, but I still got very little sleep, and once again being overly tired, I will accomplish next to nothing today. CY: I wouldn't tell them about going over and closing thier door. Too much like trespassing. Ava City Ordinance No. 432 reads, in pertinent part, "No person shall own, keep or harbor any dog which by loud, continual or frequent barking, howling or yelping shall annoy or disturb any neighborhood or person ... no violation under this section shall be prosecuted without there first being filed by an injured party a signed complaint formally charging such violator under this section." CY: As someone else said, for the first letter please don't mention codes or law. I'd like very much to solve this problem amicably, with your cooperation a formal complaint will be unnecessary. Please pardon the tone of this letter, as chronic sleep loss is taking a heavy toll on my diplomacy skills. CY: too college level. Maybe "Sorry if this letter seems crabby and witchy. But after so many weeks of losing sleep, I *AM* crabby and witchy". To better understand my situation, please read "The Deleterious Impact of Exposing People to Chronic Barking" which is published under Section Six at www.barkingdogs.net <http://www.barkingdogs.net/>. CY: I usually like to request a low level solution. "As we are nieghbors, I think we can work together to find a good solution without involving the code enforcement people." Many thanks, Pat Davis - 683-1565 P.S. http://www.ultimatebarkcontrol.com/DS_Ultimate.htm may be helpful also. > CY: Most folks don't talk, or write at college level. How about "Your > barking dogs are making it impossible for me to sleep." I originally wrote "yapping" because that describes the sound better than "barking" does. Someone said "yapping" would be an insult, so I changed it to the only other word that seemed to fit. > CY: How about "As hot as it is, I open my windows at night. The sound > from the dogs barking is very loud, and keeps me awake." That's good. > CY: I wouldn't tell them about going over and closing thier door. Too > much like trespassing. I wanted them to know how desperate I was. > CY: As someone else said, for the first letter please don't mention > codes or law. This was gonna be the only letter, not the first one. > CY: too college level. Maybe "Sorry if this letter seems crabby and > witchy. But after so many weeks of losing sleep, I *AM* crabby and > witchy". That's good, too. But I don't see what's wrong with writing at the college level. These folks are college grads. > CY: I usually like to request a low level solution. "As we are > nieghbors, I think we can work together to find a good solution > without involving the code enforcement people." You're right again. I haven't given them any letter yet. I think they got the message from finding that door closed. The dogs have been quieter since then. But if it starts back up, now I have a better letter prepared. Thanks! >> CY: too college level. Maybe "Sorry if this letter seems crabby and >> witchy. But after so many weeks of losing sleep, I *AM* crabby and >> witchy". > > That's good, too. But I don't see what's wrong with writing at the > college level. These folks are college grads. I don't know about this whole "college level" business, but in general it comes down to tone. When you use big words where smaller ones would do, it comes across as unnecessarily formal, possibly even stuffy. It's like when people are really pissed at each other and use exaggeratedly polite turns of phrase. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > On 2006-05-30, Pat penned: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > stuffy. It's like when people are really pissed at each other and > use exaggeratedly polite turns of phrase. See, that's why I asked for comments on this whole thing. I know stuff like that, but haven't used it in ages, due to being a virtual hermit. Also, in a sleep-deprived state that kind of knowledge is not so accessible. >> I don't know about this whole "college level" business, but in >> general it comes down to tone. When you use big words where [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > hermit. Also, in a sleep-deprived state that kind of knowledge is > not so accessible. It's a fine line, and I know exactly what you mean -- one night of poor sleep and I'm pretty much useless the next day. More than one night, and I'm not just useless, I'm also so raw that I'll pick a fight with just about anyone, and see offense where none was intended. The big word vs. small word thing has been a sore point to me for years. I always figured I was using the most precise and accurate word for the situation, and if the reader didn't know the word, that was their problem, not mine. Then I attended an excellent writing class (two or three days, sponsored by my old company). I learned a lot, but the most helpful bit for me was a long talk I had with the instructor about using my extensive vocabulary. His point was, you write to communicate, and if your intended audience doesn't know the word, it doesn't matter how precise it is. If you're trying to accomplish something, you need to write in the way that is accessible to your audience. So, if you're writing poetry, go ahead and flaunt the vocabulary. If you're writing a business document, keep it simple. I don't think you were doing this with your letter, but the topic seemed close enough that I felt like talking about it. I'm glad the dogs have been quieter the last few nights. Hope the trend continues. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca |
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