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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / May 2006Purrs needed please
I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. She isn't in the position financially or without time/responsibility constraints to be trying to raise 5 kittens plus try to keep the mama cat inside right now. I have been begging her to let me take the whole bunch now that they're 4 weeks old and they will be more work than just letting them suckle on Amber. Her house is a wreck, if they get out they will be lost. She's a single mom of 6 year old twins, and her daughter loves to hold the kittens, but I was with her the other day and she's ROUGH with them. Too rough. I had to keep taking them out of her hands. I know my sister isn't watching things that closely, though she is at least secluding the kittens, and the room is off limits to my niece and nephew without supervision. But she isn't securing the room sufficientley to keep the kittens from getting out, and soon they will be exploring more than just this room. "Amber needs to be able to get in and out" she says. Bullshit. Amber already terrorizes Tigger, which is why she wants to rehome her in the first place. I'm so emotional about this situation and I feel such a need to take care of them all right now. I am even prepared to use the rest of my tax refund to have them all neutered before they are homed, and of course I'll do that even if she won't give them to me. It's just that I've seen how they're living, and they really need to get away from there, and my sister really can't take care of them. We don't live close enough to each other for me to check on them every day, and I worry so much. When I was over there last weekend I had to clean the room they were in because I found a pin and staples and tacks on the floor. How can I reason with her about this, short of ruining our relationship, and not getting the kittens in the end any way? I asked our mom to help convince her to let me have them, but she's afraid it will alienate them again. We've been through similar situations before, and when my mom agrees with me on something, my sis accuses her of "siding with me against her" and then mom doesn't get to see the grandkids for a long time.  SignatureCheryl Purrs on the way >I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. She isn't in the > position financially or without time/responsibility constraints to [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > sis accuses her of "siding with me against her" and then mom > doesn't get to see the grandkids for a long time. On Wed 24 May 2006 10:29:05p, Matthew aka NMR wrote in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes (news:RD8dg.2021$h01.582 @tornado.tampabay.rr.com): > Purrs on the way Thanks Matthew. OH my God, the worst part is that she wants to keep one of the kittens because her daughter insists, and otherwise, I'd tell her I have someone who wants to adopt all 6 of them, Amber included, and take them all to my house. I feel that responsibly she needs to teach her kids that it's important not to try to live beyond ones means. They can't even afford to neuter one that they keep. I would be paying. SignatureCheryl > I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. She isn't in the > position financially or without time/responsibility constraints to [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > sis accuses her of "siding with me against her" and then mom > doesn't get to see the grandkids for a long time. I wish I had some advice to give. It does sound like a bad situation. I hope your sister sees sense and lets you take care of Amber and her kittens. Many purrs and meatloaf meditations on the way. SignatureMarina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/ Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki Sorry but you really can't make another adult do something like this. You said yourself that going to your Mom would only make things worse. I know how well trying to get my mom to make my brother or sister do something for me didn't work when we were kids. It would have never occurred to me after I was six or seven years old. Try very hard to only offer your help, not to find fault with how she handles things. I'd say that;s the only chance you've got. Jo >I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. She isn't in the > position financially or without time/responsibility constraints to [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > sis accuses her of "siding with me against her" and then mom > doesn't get to see the grandkids for a long time. Purrs on the way. Just know that you can't "make" her do anything she doesn't want to do. The only way to force her to give up the kittens would be to report her - and you don't want to do that (unless you think the kittens are in real danger and then you have a tough decision to make). Neither can you keep beating yourself up about what's happening - that won't help it will only make it more difficult for you to cope with what's happening. Sometimes really bad things happen in this world, sometimes it happens to us or to those closest to us and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it except just hang on, pray to Whomever it is we pray to, and ask our friends to do the same for us. Keep trying to talk some sense into her, but be prepared to be ignored. Come here and vent whenever you need to, we'll be here for you. SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ >I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. She isn't in the > position financially or without time/responsibility constraints to [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > sis accuses her of "siding with me against her" and then mom > doesn't get to see the grandkids for a long time. > I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. <snip> Purrs that the situation can be resolved. SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera) Cats leave pawprints on your heart. http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk >I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. She isn't in the > position financially or without time/responsibility constraints to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > closely, though she is at least secluding the kittens, and the room > is off limits to my niece and nephew without supervision. Its *impossible* to keep a hawk's eye on kids every second of every minute of every day, but it is good that your neice & nephew can't go into the kitten's room unsupervised. That being said, if a two year old can be taught 'gentle' and how to pat cats and dogs withough being too rough (even if he does forget which is the right direction to stroke a cat on occasion), a 6 year old can *definately* learn. Did you show your neice how to handle a kitten correctly? Did you tell her it *hurt* the kitten if she did it wrong? Your neice coudl well become an advocate of hte kittens with a small amount of education. Most kids just want to be nice to the critters, they just don't really know how. They have to be shown. > But she > isn't securing the room sufficientley to keep the kittens from [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > situation and I feel such a need to take care of them all right > now. She can't keep an adult cat in a room by itself for the rest of its life, let alone an adult cat and 5 kittens. They will have to be let out eventually, if they don't become practiced in escaping first anyway. > I am even prepared to use the rest of my tax refund to have > them all neutered before they are homed, and of course I'll do that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sis accuses her of "siding with me against her" and then mom > doesn't get to see the grandkids for a long time. Your neice is the key, IMHO. With a small amount of education in catology, she can bug her mum about cat keeping far more than you could. She *likes* cats, will care for them, and do the right thing by them - she just needs to be shown how. Your sister is probably just too overwhelmed with all the responsibilities of being a single mum to do much about the kittens either way. There's only so much time in the day, and only so much one person can do. I'm sure she intends the best for them, but may not be able to provide it (I know how she feels). Don't turn it into a fight, but offer your knowledge on how to make the kittens and cats less of a hassle for your sister - and that might mean doing her a favour by 'adoptng the kittens yourself'. Good luck Yowie > >I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. Many purrs. This reminds me of Dylan's big horror...when he was a little kid, he accidentally killed a kitten. He didn't know he was being too rough with her, and didn't understand what had happened to her at first. He feels hideous about it to this day, though if Bast has punished him for it, she has punished him doubly, being as he is the momdad of TWO bitties now. I think your best bet is to show your neice how to handle the kittens. Don't bring your mom into it as she is only risking her own relationship with her grandkids. Support them as much as you can, and after that, recognize that there are limits to what you can do. --Fil > This reminds me of Dylan's big horror...when he was a little > kid, he accidentally killed a kitten. He didn't know he was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you can, and after that, recognize that there are limits to what > you can do. I'm sorry that happened to Dylan. I hope he can take it easier on himself. Thanks you guys for the purrs. I'm overwhelmed. Yowie, I did show my niece the way to hold the kitten, but she just didn't get it. 6-year-old coordination problems. She tried, though, and she understood what I was talking about. I doubt my sis will decide to let me home the kittens and Amber. Oh well. SignatureCheryl > Thanks you guys for the purrs. I'm overwhelmed. Yowie, I did show > my niece the way to hold the kitten, but she just didn't get it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I doubt my sis will decide to let me home the kittens and Amber. Oh > well. I'm sorry, Cheryl. I can imagine how helpless and powerless you must feel. I hate those situations. I hope it somehow all works out. Sometimes bad things happen but *sometimes* animals are amazingly resilient and everything turns out okay. Hopefully, your sis will get worried about all the responsibility and turn them over to you. Candace >> This reminds me of Dylan's big horror...when he was a little >> kid, he accidentally killed a kitten. He didn't know he was [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > 6-year-old coordination problems. She tried, though, and she > understood what I was talking about. Part of the problem is simple child development. Psychologists have determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy - they're still living in an egocentric universe - this doesn't mean a child is evil, stupid, or any other negatives, it's just how nature works. Children from 6 to 10 have a limited concept of empathy. A child who has never been *taught* empathy (and others who are clinically insane) grow up to be sociopaths. SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ > I doubt my sis will decide to let me home the kittens and Amber. Oh > well. > Part of the problem is simple child development. Psychologists have > determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy - [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > child who has never been *taught* empathy (and others who are > clinically insane) grow up to be sociopaths. Maybe they're not evil, but they certainly have the capacity to do great harm. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >> Part of the problem is simple child development. Psychologists have >> determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy - [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Maybe they're not evil, but they certainly have the capacity to do > great harm. True, which is why they should be closely supervised and have good role models. SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ >>> Part of the problem is simple child development. Psychologists >>> have determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > True, which is why they should be closely supervised and have good > role models. Agreed. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >Psychologists have >determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy I wonder about this one. I would say that when my younger sister, age 2 or 3, heard the baby cry in the basinet and said, "Mommy, ow in the basket!" that she was displaying empathy -- extrapolating from "I cry when hurt" to "The baby cries because she hurts". Of course, her concern may not have been directly for the baby's pain, but more to be helpful to her mother and point out a situation that Mommy usually reacted to. But I've also seen children of that age react in sympathy to adult pain and try the kiss-it-to-make-it-better approach. SignatureWayne M. > >Psychologists have > >determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > also seen children of that age react in sympathy to adult pain > and try the kiss-it-to-make-it-better approach. I agree with you, Wayne. I have seen many children younger than 5 display what I consider to be empathy. My son, particularly, was sensitive to the feelings of others. Joy >> Psychologists have >> determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > also seen children of that age react in sympathy to adult pain > and try the kiss-it-to-make-it-better approach. I agree with you, I recently posted about the 3 year old that sympathised when Snoopy scratched my arm. SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera) Cats leave pawprints on your heart. http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk >>> Psychologists have >>> determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I agree with you, I recently posted about the 3 year old that sympathised > when Snoopy scratched my arm. When my grandson was 2, he came across the room to inspect my sprained ankle. He then planted a kiss on the bandage and said kiss -- feel better". (Gee, what a long time ago.) MLB >>> Psychologists have >>> determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I agree with you, I recently posted about the 3 year old that sympathised > when Snoopy scratched my arm. I'd agree that htere is a certain amount of upset-that-another-person-is-upset, but I'm not sure I could call Cary's behaviour *empathy*, just that he doens't like seeing people (fur or otherwise) upset. Empathy is about being able to put yourself in another's shoes, to see things from their perspective. Cary does't have that ability yet. But he does have *sympathy* which although subltey different, doesn't mean he has to be able to put himself in another's place, merely that he has to recognise someone else's tears or sad face (which is much easier). When he hurts me (its *always* accidental), I always put on a big sad face. that way he might be able to lear that "If I do 'x', Mum will be sad. I don't like Mum being sad so I won't do 'x' ". Only later will it change over to "Mum gets upset when I do 'x', Its not nice being upset, therefore I won't do 'x' " I don't know when that change over occurs. I could well be quite late. I do know that children don't really understad 'morally grey issues' until puberty hits. Eg. "A man's wife is really really sick. She needs very expensive medicine or she'll die. The man can't afford to buy the medicine, so he steals it, and his wife lives. Was the man wrong to do what he did?" A child under puberty will probably recogise that stealing is wrong, and say the man was wrong, eh shouldn't have stolen. A child over puberty (even just a few months older than the non-pubescent child) will um and ahh, recognising that its both wrong to steal, but there's value in human life. They might ask quetions about whether the man had tried to get money for the medicine before stealing it, or even why the medicine that saved lives was so expensive when its not fair that poor people can't use it. Etc etc. Wish I could quote you this study, but I can assure you that it was real. I thik it was on a recent documentary about the mind of the child. Yowie > >>> Psychologists have > >>> determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Yowie I get you. I supposed "sympathy" was more what I was thinking of. RE: "Empathy by definition: I don't think that's necessary for a child to learn to be kind to animals. I've seen some children be very gentle and careful with animals at a very young age. Sherry >>Psychologists have >>determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > also seen children of that age react in sympathy to adult pain > and try the kiss-it-to-make-it-better approach. As Yowie said so well in another post, there's a difference between "empathy" and "sympathy". Young children can be sympathetic (whether through genuine concern, or mimicking adult behavior, or just trying to reduce the amount of punishment for hitting little sister) without being empathetic. A human infant is the most egotistical creature in the universe - again, that's not a bad thing, it's just how nature decided it was going to be be. Every action seems to revolve around him/her, e.g. I cry - I get fed, I cry - I get held, etc. Every other person in that infant's universe seems to be put on the planet for no other reason than to cater to that infant's needs. A child has to be old enough to conceptualize the universe, rather than looking at the universe from the unique perspective of "self", before he can understand that others may feel the same things he feels when he is hurt. One more time, that doesn't mean that a child under 5 is evil, mean, or unusually self-centered, it only means that they need adult supervision and a good role model until they *can* conceptualize the universe. Hugs, CatNipped >>>Psychologists have >>>determined that a child 5 and under has *NO* concept of empathy [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > self-centered, it only means that they need adult supervision and a good > role model until they *can* conceptualize the universe. An interesting experiment last night. "Cary, who's that?", I said, pointing to Joel. "Daddy!" he said. "Who am I?" I asked "Mummy!" he replied "Who are you?" I enquired. He didn't know how to answer and got all confused. We tried it a few times with slight variations in the question, but he just didn't get it. Its not a matter of him not being able to wrap his toungue around a word that would refer to himself, as he's quite capable of saying "Bubby" and "Bear" (his two nicknames). He has not yet said ever said "Cary" though, and has never used "Bubby" or "Bear" to refer to himself. My conclusion, he hasn't got to the stage where he's realises he's a seperate entity. All he knows is that there are things in his world that have a name. He doens't know that he himself is a thing in other people's worlds and therefore has a name. He does, however, *answer* to Cary, Bubby or Bear, so he knows that we are talking to him specifically, just hasn't figured out he too has a name that he canuse to describe hismelf. Weird, huh? Yowie . > An interesting experiment last night. > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Yowie What's his reaction if you hold him before a mirror and say "Who's that?". ? Would be interesting to hear his response. What a cutie. If I had him, I'd throw the TV out the door. He'd be enough entertainment for me. BTW, and OT: Yowie, I have a six-foot-four, two hundred pound son. Everybody *still* calls him "Bubby." LOL. Sherry > . > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > BTW, and OT: Yowie, I have a six-foot-four, two hundred pound son. > Everybody *still* calls him "Bubby." LOL. We tried the mirror thing. He giggled alot. Eventually we got him to point to "Cary", although he wouldn't say it. Then I put a sweater on him, and he couldn't find "Cary" anymore. He had associated "Cary" with the shark on his t-shirt. Interesting experiment! Will have to try it again in a few months time to see when he learns that he is indeed a seperate entity. Yowie > Interesting experiment! Will have to try it again in a few months time to > see when he learns that he is indeed a seperate entity. I know you're pressed for time, but if you find some extra, read some Jacques Lacan. He's explored the 'me in the mirror' thing. SignatureMarina, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Frank and Nikki. Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/ Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki > We tried the mirror thing. He giggled alot. Eventually we got him to point > to "Cary", although he wouldn't say it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Yowie It's so great to read Cary updates! Thanks, Vicky. Best wishes, Polonca and Soncek > >> This reminds me of Dylan's big horror...when he was a little > >> kid, he accidentally killed a kitten. He didn't know he was [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > CatNipped That does not sound right. Children under five--particularly age 4 & 5.. DO demonstrate empathy. I've seen it in children. Maybe at age 2 & under it isn't developed yet, but by age 5 it certainly is. Sherry Sherry Purrs on the way for a good resolution for all. SignatureSam, closely supervised by Mistletoe > I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. Purrs for the kittens. What an uncomfortable family situation for you =/ Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > I could use some purrs for my sisters kittens. She isn't in the > position financially or without time/responsibility constraints to > be trying to raise 5 kittens plus try to keep the mama cat inside > right now. I have been begging her to let me take the whole bunch > now that they're 4 weeks old and they will be more work than just > letting them suckle on Amber. <snip> Lots and lots of purrs and best wishes, Polonca and Soncek
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