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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / May 2006Something off my chest.
I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one is really getting me. And I've seen lots of ugly things re: animals and shelters and such, lots of graphic pictures and RL things too. Yesterday the animal control officer from the city came in the shelter and stuck this 8x10 photo in my face and said "Now I guess this will change your mind about pit bulls". It made me mad first because I never was particularly a defender of pits and second she didn't give me any warning. It was a two-year-old child whose face was pretty well gone from the nose down. They were visiting relatives from out of state. The dog was a "nice dog", never been aggressive in it's life. They were sitting around the living room, as I heard the story, and the little girl went running across the room to throw herself into the lap of the owner, as toddlers do. The dog just went berserk. For the first time in its life. Parents have just got to hear stories like this, I think. I am doing a piece in the newsletter I think. Parents just have to do a better job protecting their small children from strange dogs. All dogs. They are, after all, animals, and all animals are unpredicable. I can even see Happy doing something like that; he was never exposed to children, and the ones that visited, he didn't much like. When my sisters wild-child twin grandsons visited, I always locked him up somewhere. I think he'd have bitten, although his dachshund self wouldn't have caused as much damage. That poor little girl is going to have years of surgeries ahead of her. Sorry for the OT, I wish I had something like a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser I could just rub across my head and get that picture out. Sherry >I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one > is really getting me. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I could just rub across my head and get that picture out. > Sherry Not exactly "far-out" OT - we've sure heard enough from those posting sympathy for the "poor pitbulls" here. This is exactly what happened to the ten-year-old I mentioned before in this locality: lower half of his face still being reconstructed; fractured mandible (lower jaw) from pitbulls attacking him in his yard. Thank God his photo was not shown in media till much work had been done surgically. I'm sorry you had to have that vision put in your memory bank, Sherry.....but I'm not about to analyze animal control officers' actions......here it's fairly simple: owning pitbulls = breaking the law; dogs are seized, taken to animal control HQ, and PTS. People here were fed up. >......here it's fairly simple: owning >pitbulls = >breaking the law; dogs are seized, taken to animal control HQ, and PTS. I should hope not. My only dog was a pitbull. I didn't know what he was when I found him. He loved the cats and accepted the fact that he was second fiddle to them. If he wasn't sitting in the driveway when the mail was delivered, sometimes the mailman would ring the bell and ask if Neptune was OK. The dog had personality in spades. If I were to ever own another dog, there's no doubt what kind it would be. Art The question is not "pitbull" or "not pitbull." The question is: How far do you trust an animal? ANY animal. There are pitbulls who would never attack anyone and there are labrador retrievers who are vicious. Though much depends on the animal's mental state, how well it is trained, and the conditions it lives in, animals CAN attack without warning. Yes, some breeds are more dangerous or more likely to attack for various reasons, but probabilities do not mean certainties, nor do they mean that other animals are "safe." I would go in the barn at a very young age. I had to be extra careful around the bull because he was statistically more likely to be dangerous (like a pitbull, next to the cows who were more like labs.) But that doesn't mean I could provoke the cows or trust them to be gentle. My Smokey-poke--Everyone's Ham Buddy and the most social cat I've ever met--hauled off and bit my friend Jon for no apparent reason, quite deeply and bloodily. It was bizarre, because Smokey liked Jon before and liked him afterwards, but at that moment, something caused Smokey to attack for real. --Fil Years ago I used to work with a woman who had a Doberman. She got it when it was a puppy from a reputable source (I can't remember if it was a breeder now or not) and adored it. She used to take it to work with her, it never left her side. One night while she was sleeping it went "mad", ran upstairs, attacked her and bit her nose practically off. She had to have it put to sleep (she had no choice) and had years of surgery afterwards. Marcia > The question is not "pitbull" or "not pitbull." > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > --Fil > Years ago I used to work with a woman who had a Doberman. She got it > when it was a puppy from a reputable source (I can't remember if it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > She had to have it put to sleep (she had no choice) and had years of > surgery afterwards. The woman in France that recently had the face transplant, she was bitten by her own labrador. I was surprised when I read that, against the wishes of her family, she refused to have the dog put down, I believe it still lives with her.  SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera) Cats leave pawprints on your heart. http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk >The woman in France that recently had the face transplant, she was bitten by >her own labrador. I was surprised when I read that, against the wishes of >her family, she refused to have the dog put down, I believe it still lives >with her. That's not what I read. In People magazine there was an article on her. It said the dog has been put down. She took a bunch of sleeping pills intending to commit suicide (which she later denied was her intention) that night and the next thing she knew she woke up with her face bleeding. Sounds to me like that dog was trying to rouse her awake and went too far. The ironic thing is he may have saved her life; I was disappointed to hear he was put down. What he did is so unusual for a Lab and the circumstances were so unusual that I think he should have been given another chance. >> The woman in France that recently had the face transplant, she was >> bitten by her own labrador. I was surprised when I read that, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > did is so unusual for a Lab and the circumstances were so unusual > that I think he should have been given another chance. Her family must have got their way, a very sad case. SignatureAdrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera) Cats leave pawprints on your heart. http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk > The woman in France that recently had the face transplant, she was > bitten by her own labrador. "Face transplant"? Her new face was donated by someone who died? Kind of freaky for the people who knew the deceased. :) My feeling about pit bulls is that, while they may not be more vicious than other dogs (as a breed), they have the physical apparatus to do a lot more damage than the average dog. They're highly muscled and they have jaws from hell. Other dogs might bite you, but most won't kill you. A pitbull can kill doing the same behaviors any other dog might also do with less disasterous results. It's like the difference between playing with a cat and playing with a mountain lion. Both animals might respond in a similar manner, and might scratch or bite. But while the cat most likely won't do you any lasting harm, the mountain lion could kill you without even meaning to. That's how I think of the difference between pit bulls and most other breeds (and mutts). Psychologically, they might not be very different, but physically they really are. Joyce Sig and Roy are prime examples of that > > The woman in France that recently had the face transplant, she was > > bitten by her own labrador. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Joyce > The question is not "pitbull" or "not pitbull." > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > state, how well it is trained, and the conditions it lives in, animals > CAN attack without warning.////// I would concur with that. My dog Bonnie is the sweetest dog on the planet, seriously, she's a loving dope. She's well mannered, well socialised and well trained. However, when my friends husband died when I was staying with her, Bonnie became very over protective of her two young daughters, Rochel and Rivka. To the point she bacame downright *dangerous* to anyone she didn't know, positioning herself between them and the kids at all times and giving *very* threatening behaviour. She became so unpredictable that we had to kennel her outside in the dog run whenever anyone was in the house apart from me, my friend and the kids. At one point I almost had to drag her off the neighbour as she approached the kids before we could grab Bonnie and I thought Bonnie was going to bite her. This is the dog who babysits sick kittens, and basically mothered Lily stupid. Her first reaction when introduced to a new furry baby is to wash it. She loves everybody, and is very sweet. But I still don't trust her 100% with new people and *her* kids Rochel and Rivka. Helen M > The question is not "pitbull" or "not pitbull." > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > and liked him afterwards, but at that moment, something caused Smokey > to attack for real. I still remember one early morning when for no reason I know of, one of my little poodles bit my hand. Hard. Right down to the bone. We had both been asleep and were in what she would have considered a strange place. (A motel room at the beach) I don't know if she had a nightmare or woke in strange surroundings and panicked or what. But I was very glad she was a very small dog, and far more concerned for her than upset with her. Jo > The question is not "pitbull" or "not pitbull." > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > and liked him afterwards, but at that moment, something caused Smokey > to attack for real. At work we rate the seriousness of a risk by adding two things together: the likelihood of an event happening, and the seriousness of the event happening. I don't know whether pitbulls - all other things being equal - are more likely than other dog breeds to become agressive. I personally don't think so; even Fluffy barks, growls and snaps if you push her buttons. However, that doesn't take into account *training*. I would suspect that pitbulls are more likely to be *trained* to be agressive than other breeds of dog. Therefore, although I don't think pitbulls are particularly agressive just by nature, I think the odds of a pitbull being trained to be agressive is quite a bit higher than a teacup poodle for example being trained to be agressive. Therefore the *likelihood* of a pitbll being agressive because of training, not nature, is higher than for other dogs, IMHO. What is the seriousness of an attack from a pitbull comapred to other breeds? Whilst I'm sure a teacup poodle can produce a painful bite if provoked, a pitbull's very makeup is designed to cause maximum damage - they have extremely powerful jaws, and large amounts of upper body strength. Theyir physique was specifically bred to rip flesh off bones in a rather spectacular way. I would also hazard a guess that the amount of stamina and 'fight' a pitbull has in it is far greater than a teacup poodle (or other dog) and therefore the *seriousness* of a pitbull attack is likely to be much higher than an attack from another sort of dog. So whilst a pitbull is a dog like every other dog, and can be the nicest dog in nature and trained *not* to be agressive, if it does attack, the consequences are much worse than for many other dog breeds, and if you take into account training, pitbulls pose a much greater *risk* than other dog breeds. Again, the only pitbull and hte only rotteweiler I have known were gentle giants, and I loved them to bits, but I'd still prefer to be attacked by a chihuahua than a pitbull or rottie. It is exceptionally unlikely that an encounter with a chihuahua would be anything more than a few puncture holes in my ankles, a rottie or pitbull attack could well be fatal. The same argument could well be mounted against guns - whilst knives and guns can both kill people, the consequence of a gun accident is likely to be far more *serious* than an accident with a knife. Both are deadly weapons in trained hands, as are both useful tools in trained hands. But if I had to have an accident with one of them, I'd prefer to have the accident with a knife than a gun. Yowie >I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one > is really getting me. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Sherry I would have been incensed if I were you. I have a *VERY* low threshhold for images like that - I will weep about them for days and often it will send me spiralling into a bad depression that can last for weeks or months. I get really pissed when people send me pictures like that in email without warning first. I can't even read descriptions of things like that. Having said that, however, I'm afraid I have to agree the animal control officer about pit bulls. Other dogs may bite, and cause damage, but pit bulls 1) always go for the face or throat, and 2) won't let go once their jaws clamp down. More people, especially children, are killed and maimed by pit bulls than any other breed of dog. It's not their fault, it's what they were bred to do. Just as border collies will instinctively try to herd other animals (including their own humans), pit bulls instinctively go for the face/throat at the least provocation - often with no provocation at all! I don't think all pit bulls should be euthanized, but I do believe they should stop being bred. Cite: "Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.) Other breeds were also responsible for homicides, but to a much lesser extent. A 1997 study of dog bite fatalities in the years 1979 through 1996 revealed that the following breeds had killed one or more persons: pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas. (Dog Bite Related Fatalities," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, May 30, 1997, Vol. 46, No. 21, pp. 463 et. seq.) Hugs, CatNipped > >I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one > > is really getting me. [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > CatNipped I'm starting to agree with this, sheerly from unscientific data, from personal experience. I know all animals are unpredictable--and it's the parent's responsibility to drill that into children, and to closely supervise the ones that are too little to understand. They've just got to expect the unthinkable when a strange dog is around, and to prevent it. (or a cat, or horse, or whatever). But it always seems that the pits are the ones making the news. I don't know the reason for this, and I like most all dogs. It's just sad, and scary. Sherry > I'm starting to agree with this, sheerly from unscientific data, > from personal experience. I know all animals are unpredictable--and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > know the reason for this, and I like most all dogs. It's just sad, > and scary. I wonder how accurately the breed is reported. Seems like when I was a kid, everyone was up in arms about how German Shepherds were dangerous to be around. But afaik communities haven't banned them, and yet you rarely hear reports of them being involved in maimins. A few hypotheses: Whatever breed is currently believed to be dangerous, that's going to be the breed reported in all cases where that breed designation is remotely plausible. or Whatever breed is currently perceived to be "bad-a$$", that's the one that lots of inexperienced owners will acquire, either to put forth an image of themselves or as a home security device. When there's a breed mania, there will always be lots of new owners with no experience, and typically these "bad-a$$" dogs require more training than most. Compound this by the fact that most people probably don't know how to properly train a guard dog (I certainly wouldn't) and probably encourage the wrong behavior. or German Shepherds and pit bulls are both potentially dangerous, but german sheps aren't as popular right now as pits. or ... I think I'm emotionally compromised on this one. I can still remember the fuzzy, slightly stiff feel of Romeo, a German shepherd I played with for years. He would carry his buddy Tigerlily, a small cat, all over the place, and we would all three play together. It's just so hard for me to imagine these horrors, even though I know they happen. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > A few hypotheses: > Whatever breed is currently believed to be dangerous, that's going to [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > hard for me to imagine these horrors, even though I know they happen. > monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully I know it is hard; I think it's better to try NOT to imagine the horrors, dear. Unpleasant subject for a cat ng anyway. I really meant it about Sherry's memory bank being polluted by that dog cop: those of us who worked in ER's have sights imprinted in our memory banks that you don't even wanna think about.....most of mine (but not all) are all about what happens to folks not belted in (i.e.: "partially ejected" means zilch to the average bear reading about accidents - that's why I'm such a bitch everywhere re seat belt use). We didn't have dogs when I gew up, only lotsa cats! There will be quite a crowd of short furry people crossing the RB when I get there...all felines, all in their prime and beautiful again, all my former owners together. For the record, I don't like killing anything (just like Norm, I threw the lizards out the door in FL instead of down the watery throne). >> I'm starting to agree with this, sheerly from unscientific data, >> from personal experience. I know all animals are unpredictable--and [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >over the place, and we would all three play together. It's just so >hard for me to imagine these horrors, even though I know they happen. I have been thoroughly exhausted by arguments over pit bulls, breed panic and breed-specific legislation recently, but . . . You and other dog lovers might be interested in this: "Troublemakers: What pit bulls can teach us about racial profiling" by Malcolm Gladwell: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060206fa_fact Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com Make Levees, Not War > I have been thoroughly exhausted by arguments over pit bulls, breed > panic and breed-specific legislation recently, but . . . You and > other dog lovers might be interested in this: "Troublemakers: What > pit bulls can teach us about racial profiling" by Malcolm Gladwell: > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060206fa_fact This is an amazing article. Thank you for sharing it. It seems to lend some credence to my "gut" feel that outlawing breeds misses the point. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >> I have been thoroughly exhausted by arguments over pit bulls, breed >> panic and breed-specific legislation recently, but . . . You and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >lend some credence to my "gut" feel that outlawing breeds misses the >point. Yes, but it's faster, easier and cheaper than enforcing responsible pet ownership. :( Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com Make Levees, Not War > I have been thoroughly exhausted by arguments over pit bulls, breed > panic and breed-specific legislation recently, but . . . > You and other dog lovers might be interested in this: "Troublemakers: > What pit bulls can teach us about racial profiling" by Malcolm > Gladwell: > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060206fa_fact That's probably the best-written article on the subject(s) I have ever read. Thanks for posting it. -L. >> I'm starting to agree with this, sheerly from unscientific data, >> from personal experience. I know all animals are unpredictable--and [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > over the place, and we would all three play together. It's just so > hard for me to imagine these horrors, even though I know they happen. I have a cousin who was badly maimed by a pair of German Shepherds when he was a child. (Plenty of mutts have hurt kids over the years too) But I do believe that the Shepherds are somewhat easier to train than the pit bulls. And that a big problem with the pit bulls isn't so much their propensity to attack as it is their ability to cause a great deal of damage if they do. Jo > I think I'm emotionally compromised on this one. I can still > remember the fuzzy, slightly stiff feel of Romeo, a German shepherd > I played with for years. He would carry his buddy Tigerlily, a > small cat, all over the place, and we would all three play together. > It's just so hard for me to imagine these horrors, even though I > know they happen. That should read Romeo's ear, not Romeo. Although I guess all of him was fuzzy and slightly stiff. Not the smartest dog, though. His preferred "quiet time" activity was chewing rocks. Seriously. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > I wonder how accurately the breed is reported. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > know how to properly train a guard dog (I certainly wouldn't) and > probably encourage the wrong behavior. I think this is spot on. SignatureShirley http://community.webshots.com/user/shirleycatuk > Having said that, however, I'm afraid I have to agree the animal control > officer about pit bulls. Other dogs may bite, and cause damage, but pit [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I don't think all pit bulls should be euthanized, but I do believe they > should stop being bred. Pit bulls are banned in Ontario. The law came into effect not long ago. It caused quite a stir. The other day it was reported the law faces constituitional challege. "It requires pit bulls to be muzzled in public, leashed and sterilized and also bans the breeding of pit bulls." Winnie > Cite: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > CatNipped > I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one > is really getting me. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and stuck this 8x10 photo in my face and said "Now I guess this will > change your mind about pit bulls". I still vividly recall when I was 6 years old and had my tonsils out sharing a hospital room with a younger child, she was maybe 2 or three, her head swathed in bandages. I was told she had her entire face taken in the mouth of a German Shepherd. It was a rather horrific thought but it also made me very cautious around dogs. I never saw a Pit Bull until I was 11 but the ones my parents' friends had were kept in a dog run and didn't act friendly, as so many people claim they are. These dogs acted like they'd bite if you gave them a moments notice. Having said that, I don't know that all pit bulls are trained to hurt, but they *do* have a different jaw formation. It locks down and you simply can't pull them loose. Once they get a grip, they get a grip and won't be stopped. I'm not saying Pit Bulls should be eradicated, but guess where the name came from? Pit... as it pit fighting. They were bred for it. They are not family pets. Sorry, folks. Jill > I still vividly recall when I was 6 years old and had my tonsils out > sharing [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > are not family pets. Sorry, folks. > Jill I'm not sorry a bit: all I posted was what an entire city (not small town) decided to do....outlaw them 100%, no excuses, by passing legislation locally. Pitbull champions/owners (majority simply moved dogs to friends/relatives in big 'burb where I live, which promptly outlawed them as well...but in my municipality you can register them ($200) and meet specific, strict outlines for enclosing them if you let them in your yard....$1000 fine and same fate as first city (PTS) if animal control catches you w/unregistered dogs) are still holding candlelight "vigils" for the over-1000 pitbulls PTS so far (!!!) and trying to get the law changed..........but I don't think its gonna happen, ever. BTW, as I posted before re my RB Akita downing and pinning drunk neighber w/"Fluffy" prancing through my FL yard....he had her by the *knee*, firmly, no marks on either her knee or pants....he weighed at the time about 130# and she weighed about 110#.......must be true that yes, they're all different. He could very well have got her by the throat, right? At least pitbulls have a chance where I live, if their owners pay up and do required fencing of registration. > I never saw a Pit Bull until I was 11 but the ones my parents' > friends had were kept in a dog run and didn't act friendly, as so > many people claim they are. These dogs acted like they'd bite if > you gave them a moments notice. Well, yeah, if they're in a run, how much socialization do you suppose they get? Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > I never saw a Pit Bull until I was 11 but the ones my parents' friends had > were kept in a dog run and didn't act friendly, as so many people claim [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > are not family pets. Sorry, folks. > Jill Duh....what is a "dog run"? I racked that in on Mozilla and got all kinds of "dog fencing" from places like Home Depot/Lowes and the few photos show kids beside what looks like an ordinary wood fence to me (maybe 6 ft.). Whatever it is, my dear RB Akita never had one in his whole life of 13 years; he lived in the house w/us and the cats and only went in my unfenced yard with me. I do admit when I am ignorant of whatever and this is one.... does anyone have pics of "dog run"? All I get is ads for fences. >> I never saw a Pit Bull until I was 11 but the ones my parents' friends >> had [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > with me. I do admit when I am ignorant of whatever and this is one.... > does anyone have pics of "dog run"? All I get is ads for fences. No pictures, but the dog run our friend has his hunting dogs in is about eight by twenty feet, dog house on one end. Concrete floor sloped to a drain at the far end. Faucet and hose at the near end so its easy to give the dogs water and wash down the floor. Chain link sides and top and locked gate. Twice a day the dog is let out to run in his orchard. The current dog is worth close to $3,000 and I'm pretty sure he added an alarm when he got this dog. Jo >> I never saw a Pit Bull until I was 11 but the ones my parents' friends had >> were kept in a dog run and didn't act friendly, as so many people claim [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > with me. I do admit when I am ignorant of whatever and this is one.... > does anyone have pics of "dog run"? All I get is ads for fences. Picture a big playpen for dogs. MLB >> I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one >> is really getting me. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >name came from? Pit... as it pit fighting. They were bred for it. They >are not family pets. Sorry, folks. But they were not bred to fight humans. They were bred to fight other dogs. In fact, in the dog-fighting world, dogs that attacked humans were immediately killed and taken out of the gene pool. Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com Make Levees, Not War All other considerations aside, shoving that picture in your face like that was a form of assault and the officer should be reported. You just don't go around treating people like that. It was cruel, mean and totally uncalled for. Jo >I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one > is really getting me. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Sherry > All other considerations aside, shoving that picture in your face like that > was a form of assault and the officer should be reported. You just don't go > around treating people like that. It was cruel, mean and totally uncalled > for. > > Jo I know. She is just like that. She is an animal lover, and IMO she shouldn't even work for animal control. It's like she is resentful that the H.S. are "rescuers" and she's the "dog-catcher." I think it comes from her frustration that nobody ever appreciates the things she does try to do help the animals, they think she just catches & kills animals. She's always doing something like that. Or telling the grossest things. Sherry > I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one > is really getting me. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Sorry for the OT, I wish I had something like a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser > I could just rub across my head and get that picture out. I'm so sorry for this little girl. I do think people overreport "pit bull" incidents. In a lot of communities, almost every dog has a bit of pit bull, so I don't know if that means pit bulls or dangerous, or that some percentage of all dogs may get territorial. I do wonder if this dog had ever been exposed to children before. Were they justified in expecting the dog would be comfortable around a child, by definition a creature that moves unpredictably and darts here and there? There's no way to know. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > I do wonder if this dog had ever been exposed to children before. > Were they justified in expecting the dog would be comfortable around [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifull That was absolutely my point in placing responsibility on the parents, not just blame on the dog. There are always going to be viscious dogs of some breed or other. Always going to be dogs that unexpectedly wack out and attack. Parents just really need to protect children from dogs they don't really know. I'm not pointing a finger at the parents either, I'm sure there were times I was lax about my children in assuming a dog was gentle. I don't think I would now though. Sherry > That was absolutely my point in placing responsibility on the parents, > not just blame on the dog. There are always going to be viscious dogs [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > either, I'm sure there were times I was lax about my children in > assuming a dog was gentle. I don't think I would now though. When I was at the vet, I saw a picture of his baby leaning against a big dog. They said the dog is very gentle. Still, I won't want to have a baby sitting next to such a big dog. Guess the vet really knows the dog and what he is doing. Winnie > Sherry >> I do wonder if this dog had ever been exposed to children before. >> Were they justified in expecting the dog would be comfortable [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > about my children in assuming a dog was gentle. I don't think I > would now though. And maybe they really had no reason to expect this would happen with this dog. I just don't know. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > I do think people overreport "pit bull" incidents. In a lot of > communities, almost every dog has a bit of pit bull, so I don't know > if that means pit bulls or dangerous, or that some percentage of all > dogs may get territorial. I went to a web site once called "Spot the Pitbull" or something like that. It was a collection of images of dogs and you were to guess whether or not they had pitbull in their ancestry. Some of them did, and some of them didn't, but it was hard to tell. It also doesn't help that "pit bull" is a generalized term to describe several kinds of bull terrier, and lots of folks generalize it still further so that any unfriendly-looking dog, or any brindle dog, or any dog with cropped ears gets labelled a pit bull. Here's a variant sort of site...not the one I'm thinking of but very similar. http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html --Fil > > I do think people overreport "pit bull" incidents. In a lot of > > communities, almost every dog has a bit of pit bull, so I don't know [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > --Fil Oh, yes, I believe that. We see all kinds of litters with alleged pit bull heritage and you'd never know it. Technically, the "rule" is, don't adopt out pit bulls. . It's a requirement for liability issues. The shelter manager cannot bring herself to send those puppies over the animal control. The Board looks the other way. It's frightening to think about. I just hope we're making the right decision. Sherry > Oh, yes, I believe that. We see all kinds of litters with alleged > pit bull heritage and you'd never know it. Technically, the "rule" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > frightening to think about. I just hope we're making the right > decision. Sherry My local shelter sent flyers to its supporters about "Why we adopt out pit bulls." They explained all of the reasons that this breed can make a good pet. I can only imagine they put a lot of thought into their position and the risk they'd be taking. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > > Oh, yes, I believe that. We see all kinds of litters with alleged > > pit bull heritage and you'd never know it. Technically, the "rule" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > make a good pet. I can only imagine they put a lot of thought into > their position and the risk they'd be taking. > monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully I would hope they have about a zillion dollars in liability insurance, and the ability to sleep at night if something awful happens. Sherry > I would hope they have about a zillion dollars in liability > insurance, and the ability to sleep at night if something awful > happens. Any pet has a chance, I suppose, of attacking a human, or another pet. Several neighborhoods have recently enacted anti-breed legislation, meaning that the question really becomes, can they sleep at night with the certainty that these dogs will be euthanized because no one will shelter them and adopt them out, or can they sleep at night with the hypothetical risk that a dog they adopted out might, just might, be vicious? I'm not sure if they do temperament tests on each animal that comes through their doors, but I do know that they have an extremely detailed document to decide whether or not an animal is adoptable, with very specific policies about aggression. Anyway, I don't want to get into a fight about it. But I do see the lengths to which people on this group will go to save cats from euthanasia, and I was a dog lover long before I met Oscar. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > > I would hope they have about a zillion dollars in liability > > insurance, and the ability to sleep at night if something awful [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > -- > monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully No one, AFAIK, is getting into a fight about anything. It's a highly controversial issue with passionate opinions on both sides. This thread has been very interesting to me, I've seen both sides presented very well. Sherry For me, I love dogs, but I treat any dog I don't know with respect and caution, even if it seems friendly. With that said, I'm more likely to pet a dachshund I don't know than I am to pet a German Shepherd. And yet, I knew a very loving German Shepherd who belonged to a friend of mine. To Mia, I was family, and she always greeted me with a wagging tail. I was never afraid of her, or worried that she would turn on me. I have no wish to see a loving pet that has never attacked anyone put down. And I do believe that the kind of treatment a pit bull terrier or any other similar breed gets from the humans in its life can make all the difference between being a good family pet and a dangerous animal capable of killing or severely wounding a human being.(I think for one thing, a dog like that needs very specific training and an owner who is a good, firm disciplinarian who has the dog's respect.) Ideally, people who own pit bulls should also have plenty of room for the dogs so they can get plenty of exercise, and where the chance of an accident happening to a stranger are minimized. But... while I don't want to see any breed villified, I don't want to see a single child or adult maimed or killed by a vicious dog. There were two very publicized cases here in San Francisco of people being killed by vicious dogs. In the first case, the dogs were genuinely dangerous, and were also owned by a pair of irresponsible lowlifes who kept them in a tiny city apartment. The second was a child who got killed by two supposedly gentle pets. The female of the two was in season, and evidently the male viewed the child as competition,or else as a threat to her. Also the mother put the kid in the basement while she went out and left the dogs the run of hte house. (Duh, you put the DOGS in the basement and let the KID have the run of the house.) The kid got bored in the basement, and the dogs attacked him when he came into the kitchen. The mother truly used terrible judgement, but I have to feel sorry for her, coming home to a tragedy like that, and having to live with the consequences all the rest of her life. My feeling is its kind of like keeping guns in the house. Even if you follow very strict safety rules, there's still the risk that something terrible could happen at a moment when your guard is down. Melissa > The second was a child who got > killed by two supposedly gentle pets. The female of the two was in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > kid got bored in the basement, and the dogs attacked him when he came > into the kitchen. As I remember it, the kid was developmentally disabled and it's possible he behaved in ways that the male dog took to be either aggressive or competitive. The boy didn't really know how to act around the dogs, or maybe he didn't understand the risk. Which means the mother should have taken even *more* care to protect him! I remember that about putting the kid in the basement and letting the dogs have the run of the house. How weird is that?? Joyce Says a lot about her parenting priorities and her attitude toward the kid, doesn't it? And why didn't she get a pair of nice, mellow golden retrievers, instead? I didn't remember the bit about the child being developmentally disabled--in which case, he definitely shouldn't have been left home alone and unsupervised with two potentially dangerous dogs in the first place. Children can be unpredictable, dogs can be unpredictable, but that shouldn't be potentially fatal in either case. Melissa >> I would hope they have about a zillion dollars in liability >> insurance, and the ability to sleep at night if something awful [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > lengths to which people on this group will go to save cats from > euthanasia, and I was a dog lover long before I met Oscar. I don't think anyone wants to fight about it - I know I don't. But this *IS* a discussion I think everyone should be having because of the increase in dog attacks and especially the increase in severity of dog attacks. Coincidentally (or actually not since it happens so often here in Houston), two days ago a woman mail carrier was attacked by 3 pit bulls and needed 84 stitches all over her body. These dogs were not being trained to fight, they lived in a middle class neightbood in a nice big back yard. They had never attacked anyone before and were described by the owner as gentle family pets (which, here in Houston, means they may be give a pardon instead of being PTS). I'm *NOT* saying we should have all "viscious" breeds PTS. What I am saying is that they should be bred into extinction. Just as I've rescued moggy cats all my life, I think that people who want a dog could have one and save a "mutt" from the pound at the same time. You don't need an attack dog in order to protect yourself or your house - *ALL* dogs will instinctively do that (and a burglar will choose a house with no dog over a house with a chihuahua just to avoid the noise factor). The difference is some dogs have the physical attributes that could cause death to a grown human! I can't think of any reason to continue to breed for those attributes except for dog pit fighting - and *NO* dog lover would want to see an animal put through that. SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ > >> I would hope they have about a zillion dollars in liability > >> insurance, and the ability to sleep at night if something awful [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > for those attributes except for dog pit fighting - and *NO* dog lover would > want to see an animal put through that. > Hugs, > > CatNipped The statistics that you posted were pretty compelling to me. I do vascillate about the issue, because I love dogs too. I am curious about the "wack-out" factor re: specific breeds. Not necessarily the known-aggressive pit that attacks, but you know what they always say. "It was such a gentle dog, it was a family pet, it just freaked out and attacked for the first time in its life." How many of *those* are pits WRT severe dog-bite injuries (to children particularly). How many other various breeds/mixed breeds. You always hear about pit bulls. But do you think that's bad press? Or is there something latent within that dog's brain, more so than other breeds? You see the difference between "fight" and "debate", thank you for that. (and to everyone else too; I really needed this input to wrap my brain around that horrible incident) Sherry >> >> I would hope they have about a zillion dollars in liability >> >> insurance, and the ability to sleep at night if something awful [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Sherry I don't know how true it is, but I once heard that the dog breed most likely to bite is a cocker spaniel! However, if it is true, still a cocker spaniel can not inflict the same type of severe injuries pit bulls do. A cocker spaniel (and most dogs) will bark, rush in and bite once, then back off and bark again. A pit bull will give no warning (no growling, no barking) that they are going to attack, and they will not let go of a victim, but will continue to attack even after the death of their victim. Indeed, as described in the article someone posted, pit bulls will continue to attack even when they're being hit over the head with sticks! I don't know why some people find it hard to believe (or admit) that viciousness and attack response can be bred into a particular species of dog. Nobody has a problem believing that border collies were bred to and now have a proclivity to herd, or that terriers were bred to and now have a proclivity to ferret out rats. Neither of those breeds have to be trained in that breed's inbred behavior (although they are trained *further* if they are intended to be a working dog). Pit bulls don't have to be trained (or mistreated) in order to engage in a behavior they were bred to have. I also don't know why anyone would get upset about not breeding, thus causing the extinction of, a vicious breed of dog when there are *SO* many other breeds of dogs, and especially mongrels, who would serve the same needs of a family pet/protector, without being a danger to anyone. As far as adopting out pit bull puppies - I'm sorry, but I wouldn't. Yes it is sad that they might have to be PTS if not adopted, but then again if they get adopted instead of a mongrel puppy, it's sad that the mongrel puppy will then be PTS instead. It's not a matter of whether my shelter would be legally liable, but a matter of worrying about a child (or really anyone) being mauled or killed by a dog I adopted out knowing that this particular breed is dangerous. SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ >>> >> I would hope they have about a zillion dollars in liability >>> >> insurance, and the ability to sleep at night if something awful [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] >is sad that they might have to be PTS if not adopted, but then again if they >get adopted instead of a mongrel puppy But pit bulls *are* mostly mongrels. Pit Bull doesn't refer to a single breed, but a number of related breeds, crosses between those breeds, and crosses between those breeds and other breeds. Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com Make Levees, Not War >>>> >> I would hope they have about a zillion dollars in liability >>>> >> insurance, and the ability to sleep at night if something awful [quoted text clipped - 130 lines] > > Make Levees, Not War From what I understand, many purebred and mongrel dogs are mistaken for pit bulls, but there *is* a specific breed called pit bull: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ > From what I understand, many purebred and mongrel dogs are mistaken > for pit bulls, but there *is* a specific breed called pit bull: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of "pit bull" attacks on humans were not purebred pit bulls. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca > I don't know why some people find it hard to believe (or admit) that > viciousness and attack response can be bred into a particular [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > would serve the same needs of a family pet/protector, without being > a danger to anyone. I don't think that regional anti-breed legislation typically means a pedigreed dog. It often means an animal that appears to be partly that breed. There are many neighborhoods where most of the mutts have some amount of pit in them. Add into that the fact (as has already been mentioned here) that the term "pit bull" typically refers to several different breeds, and that most people identify a far wider variety of dogs as "pit bull" than is actually accurate, and you start to see the problem. It's like the people after 9/11 who beat up people with brown skin -- and not only were the people beat up peaceful, law-abiding citizens who obviously didn't deserve that no matter what their racial background, in many cases they weren't even racially linked to the terrorists! In general, I don't care for breeders, and I would certainly choose a shelter dog rather than getting one from a breeder. But I do tend to believe the article posted elsewhere on this thread -- the primary predictor of a dog that will exhibit antisocial behavior is an *owner* who exhibits antisocial behavior. Pit bulls are the current darlings of such malcontents, and thus you see what you see. Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >> I don't know why some people find it hard to believe (or admit) that >> viciousness and attack response can be bred into a particular [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > who exhibits antisocial behavior. Pit bulls are the current darlings > of such malcontents, and thus you see what you see. Agreed about the owner - drug dealers are especially fond of the breed to both help boost their macho persona and to help protect their drugs! SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ >Agreed about the owner - drug dealers are especially fond of the breed to >both help boost their macho persona and to help protect their drugs! Which was and is the case here. But such people are rarely what you would call reponsible pet owners, and the last thing you would expect of such people is that they would neuter their dogs. The result-- for twenty years, we have been up to our armpits in puppies with pit bull blood-- discarded, rescued, sheltered, and adopted. Where I live, the typical family dog is some kind of pit bull mix. Over a generation, the dog has morphed from drug dealer's toy to family pet. Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com Make Levees, Not War >> "Monique Y. Mudama" > > Any pet has a chance, I suppose, of attacking a human, or another pet. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > lengths to which people on this group will go to save cats from >> > euthanasia, and I was a dog lover long before I met Oscar. >> I don't think anyone wants to fight about it - I know I don't. But this >> *IS* a discussion I think everyone should be having because of the >> increase >> in dog attacks and especially the increase in severity of dog attacks. >> Coincidentally (or actually not since it happens so often here in >> Houston), [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> with no dog over a house with a chihuahua just to avoid the noise >> factor). The difference is some dogs have the physical attributes that could cause >> death to a grown human! I can't think of any reason to continue to breed >> for those attributes except for dog pit fighting - and *NO* dog lover >> would >> want to see an animal put through that. >> Hugs, >> CatNipped > The statistics that you posted were pretty compelling to me. I do > vascillate about the issue, because I love dogs too. I am curious [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > brain around that horrible incident) > Sherry Where I hail from (large east-coast city) - no statistics on this - a fact of life there was that many "dealers" and meth-lab operators used this exclusive breed to be trained to "guard" their enterprise from threats. Everyone just knew this from RL, including the cops. Now why do you suppose they did (do) this? I see things no different here.....every time they bust a meth lab, cops have to fight their way through at least one pitbull guarding it (buh-bye, pitbull!). More input to analyze, LOL, but as you all know....I don't like dogs much, and don't mind admitting it. I sleep very well at night in spite of the anti-breed laws in this city and the bigger one next door. > The statistics that you posted were pretty compelling to me. I do > vascillate about the issue, because I love dogs too. I am curious > about the "wack-out" factor re: specific breeds. Not necessarily the > known-aggressive pit that attacks, but you know what they always say. > "It was such a gentle dog, it was a family pet, it just freaked out and > attacked for the first time in its life." I think that's just people being ignorant of dog behavior. I will bet that for every "whacked out" attack there were other behviors indicative of possessiveness or protection. Or the dog is dog-aggressive or has shown other agressive tendancies (food protection, etc.). Some behaviors not directed at humans can be indicators that a human attack is possible. People just don't associate the two. -L. > I think that's just people being ignorant of dog behavior. I will > bet that for every "whacked out" attack there were other behviors [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > indicators that a human attack is possible. People just don't > associate the two. Until I watched a few of those Animal Planet shows, I'd never heard of being protective of food being a sign of aggression. Most dogs I've known would be unthrilled if you stole their treats ... heck, I've been known to growl if someone tries to take my food away from me! Signaturemonique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca >> I think that's just people being ignorant of dog behavior. I will >> bet that for every "whacked out" attack there were other behviors [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > heck, I've been known to growl if someone tries to take my food away > from me! One of the training deals I use with Kayla is pretty much a game of "who's the boss." She eventually has to allow me to do pretty much anything without protest. Being able to take her food and toys away are good starters. Haven't got to where she will let me clip her nails yet. Jo > > The statistics that you posted were pretty compelling to me. I do > > vascillate about the issue, because I love dogs too. I am curious [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -L. Oh, I see. You mean the dogs have probably in their history shown aggression/extreme possessiveness but the owner just didn't know enough about dogs to red-flag that behavior and be more cautious around children. That sounds quite plausible. The only time one of us ever got bitten by our own dog was my daughter, who decided she ought to "move" Blondie's food bowl somewhere else while she was eating. She nailed her good on the arm. Sherry >> > The statistics that you posted were pretty compelling to me. I do >> > vascillate about the issue, because I love dogs too. I am curious [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > good on the arm. > Sherry I allowed my puppies to show food-defensive behaviour when they were tiny and amongst their own litter. I consider that to be normal. However, it is totally out of order for them to display this behaviour towards humans. It must be "nipped in the bud." Once they were in the house as "pets" if they dared to growl at me over their food, I would take it off them immediately. I'd return it a couple of minutes later, any more growling if I went near their food bowl and I'd take it away again. They soon learnt this lesson, growling over their food gets it taken away..so they stopped doing it. The same applies to being able to examine their ears, paws, mouth, whatever if you need to. Insist on it, and take no excuses. My vet loved me when my dogs had to attend his surgery, because they were no trouble at all. Tweed >> > The statistics that you posted were pretty compelling to me. I do >> > vascillate about the issue, because I love dogs too. I am curious [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >good on the arm. >Sherry I think a lot of people, unfortunately, don't think that owning a dog is a kind of "active" process. They think all you have to do is feed it and walk it. They don't seem to understand that you have to train the dog, or have any kind of intervention with the dog's behavior. I've seen a lot of people who are the same with children. They think that having kids is a passive process, and just let the kids run wild. And interestingly enough, these are often the *same* people as the dog people, or they live right next door. You know what follows. Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com Make Levees, Not War >> I do think people overreport "pit bull" incidents. In a lot of >> communities, almost every dog has a bit of pit bull, so I don't know [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >--Fil I don't think there's a single dog in my neighborhood (except for the tiny, foofy ones) who isn't some sort of pitbull cross. Breed-specific legislation in my town could conceivably depopulate it. Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com Make Levees, Not War > I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one > is really getting me. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Sherry I'm so very sorry! Lots and lots of gentle hugs and purrs, Polonca and Soncek > I usually don't lose sleep or fret about too many things but this one > is really getting me. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Sherry What an a.shole that AC officer is. I'd be pissed. I still don't let my dog and DS play together without me being right there. Accidental bites can happen very easily, and if he were to accidently hurt her, she might bite him. This is a dog who has never shown a vicious act toward a human, ever. But I do not trust her 100%, and never would. The parents of that little girl are to blame. I hope they realize that. Unfortunately they will probably kill the dog. -L. |
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