Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / February 2006
Annoyed with a friend (TW-ish)
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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 08:10 GMT This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and her irresponsibility with her dog.
This friend of mine has had her dog for about 7 years. He's a wonderful dog and I'm pretty attached to him. My issue is with the fact that she often lets him off his leash in areas where I think it's not appropriate. She used to walk him off-leash all the time, in the middle of an urban area. These walks were almost always late at night, so it's not like there were a lot of people around. But he liked to chase cats, and would sometimes go off running after them. She thought that was just fine, that he was having his doggy fun, and that no-one was harmed by it.
Then he started having a number of encounters with cats that usually went badly for him (scratches, including one that was bad enough to require vet care). One time, he almost got himself killed chasing a cat across the street, and getting hit by a car. (That required serious veterinary treatment.) But sometimes it goes badly for the cat. About a year ago, he killed one, right in front of my friend.
After that happened, she swore she wouldn't let him off his leash anymore. But she wasn't very diligent about it, and would sometimes be too lazy (or perhaps, didn't want to "restrict his freedom"), so she'd take him out and let him run free. He is mostly well-trained and obeys my friend's commands, but when he sees a cat, he can't control himself - or, more to the point, my friend can't control him.
Anyway, since the first cat killing, he's had another run-in with a cat, that time getting scratched up himself. Then, a few weeks ago, my friend told me that her dog had once again killed a cat (in front of her). Her excuse: "It was right in my neighborhood, I didn't think it would happen so close to home." HUH? A dog is supposed to understand this?
And she still lets him out when she goes to her car or does some other thing in her yard, etc. He'll wander one or two houses up the street. And today, she told me that he had gotten scratched up by yet another encounter with a cat.
I told her that I thought she was being really irresponsible and that she couldn't keep letting him get out without a leash. She said that she was unwilling to keep him inside when she went out in the yard. So I said, "then put him on the leash." Her: "That's too much trouble for just a few minutes of being outside." She just refused to budge on this. I said, "Next time he might kill a cat that's someone's pet, and that person is going to be just as heartbroken as you would be if your dog was killed." That gave her pause, but I don't think it changed her mind. She actually said she'd feel "horrible" if he killed another cat, but apparently, not horrible enough to make sure he can't ever do it.
I don't know what do to at this point. I've given her all the arguments I can think of, and she's unwilling to change her mind. She feels that if people let their cats out, then they're irresponsible, too. I think that's blaming the victim. Maybe one can't control what other people do, but she could certainly choose to be responsible with her own dog.
And I'm not blaming her dog - he's just being a dog. He's not vicious - he's a wonderfully socialized animal who is mostly well-trained and obedient. It's just this one area where my friend is unable to control him through commands, and is unwilling to make sure he's always on a leash when outside.
Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?
Thanks, Joyce
Yoj - 13 Feb 2006 09:04 GMT > This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this > is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > Thanks, > Joyce She is being unreasonable and irresponsible. There isn't anything you can do. Oh, you could report her to animal control, but they'd have to catch her in the act, which is unlikely, and then she'd probably get just a small fine, which is probably less than some of the vet bills have been.
Joy
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 21:19 GMT > She is being unreasonable and irresponsible. There isn't anything you can > do. Oh, you could report her to animal control, but they'd have to catch > her in the act, which is unlikely, and then she'd probably get just a small > fine, which is probably less than some of the vet bills have been. Also, it would really damage our friendship. As much as I hate how she's behaving, she is a very good friend, and has been for 14 years. I don't take that lightly. It's not out of the question (for me to report her), but I'm not at that point yet.
Thanks for the reply!
Joyce
Adrian - 13 Feb 2006 21:57 GMT > > She is being unreasonable and irresponsible. There isn't anything > you can > do. Oh, you could report her to animal control, but [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Joyce I honestly don't know how you can continue a friendship with someone so selfish. :-(
 Signature Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera) A House is not a home, without a cat. http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 22:18 GMT > I honestly don't know how you can continue a friendship with > someone so selfish. :-( One thing I don't want to do here is defend my choice to be this woman's friend. That's not why I posted here. I don't think that I should be in the hot seat - I'm not the one who is doing anything objectionable. Let's keep the focus where it belongs.
I don't mean to single you out, Adrian, because one or two other people have responded similarly. So this is for everyone who has suggested I dump this friend. I don't dump people easily, and while I think what she's doing is wrong, I don't automatically cut people off because they do something I don't approve of. (If I did that, I'd have no friends at all - everyone does *something* I disapprove of, sooner or later.)
I'm not saying that I don't judge her - I do. But judging someone and ending a relationship with them are two different things. I think it's possible to remain a friend to her, while being honest about my opinion, and holding her accountable for her behavior. As Chak suggested, this friend does indeed have many other qualities I love, and we've been close a long time. I feel at this point that I would do more good re: this issue if I hung in there and continued to pressure her about it.
Please don't turn this issue into a question of whether I should continue to have a friendship with this person. Please trust that I have my reasons. All I'm asking for is support so that I can continue to confront her about her behavior when it comes up.
Thanks, Joyce
Takayuki - 14 Feb 2006 03:37 GMT >I'm not saying that I don't judge her - I do. But judging someone and >ending a relationship with them are two different things. I think it's [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >have my reasons. All I'm asking for is support so that I can continue >to confront her about her behavior when it comes up. I think that's a good policy, Joyce. You're friends because you're friends. I don't see any reason to have to give that up. You've had a scary experience with Smudge having been attacked and almost killed, *and* you're her friend, so you're a credible source for an opposing point of view. Keep subtly working on her. :)
Stormin Mormon - 14 Feb 2006 14:32 GMT It surely would be a test of the friendship. I'm a little surprised that you've written to a kitty message board and said you know of a d-g who has killed two cats to date. And that you aren't taking legal action to protect the next several cats who are endangered. It sounds as if your so-called friendship with this documented cat killer is more important than protecting cats.
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Yoj <joygaylord@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> She is being unreasonable and irresponsible. There isn't anything you can > do. Oh, you could report her to animal control, but they'd have to catch > her in the act, which is unlikely, and then she'd probably get just a small > fine, which is probably less than some of the vet bills have been. Also, it would really damage our friendship. As much as I hate how she's behaving, she is a very good friend, and has been for 14 years. I don't take that lightly. It's not out of the question (for me to report her), but I'm not at that point yet.
Thanks for the reply!
Joyce
Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 22:42 GMT > It surely would be a test of the friendship. I'm a little surprised that > you've written to a kitty message board and said you know of a d-g who has [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > protecting > cats. What??? This reminds me why I once had you killfiled. You are going back in again. You talk such rubbish I just don't want to hear it. Tweed
idontmind@gmail.com - 13 Feb 2006 09:39 GMT > This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this > is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and > her irresponsibility with her dog. <snip>
Well, if she doesn't care enough about anyone else's cat to keep him on lead, then she needs to think about his own life. If he's running after prey, it's just a matter of time before he gets hit by a car and killed.
There are plenty of places she can let him run off-lead that are safe; to do so in an urban setting is irresponsible, not just to her neighbors, but to HIM.
Two dead cats, and being hit by one car SHOULD be enough for her to realize the error of her ways. How many will it take before she "gets" that being off-lead for him is a REALLY bad idea? No dog can be trusted 100%, especially when it comes to chasing prey.
Print out these responses and send them to her. Tell her you are really upset about this. I would be, too.
-L.
Adrian - 13 Feb 2006 10:16 GMT <snip>
> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she? > > Thanks, > Joyce Your 'friend' should be reported to animal control, she is being totally irresponsible. That dog has shown on more than one occasion that it is out of control and can't be trusted, if if kills cats, then it could just as easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child.
 Signature Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera) A House is not a home, without a cat. http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk
Magic Mood Jeep© - 13 Feb 2006 12:40 GMT > <snip> >> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that it is out of control and can't be trusted, if it kills cats, > then it could just as easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child. I agree with Adrian. Over here they have what is a 'vicious and dangerous dog' status, but unfortunately, it needs to be documented - in other words, someone other than your friend needs to witness and report (I say other than your friend because we know *she's* not going to report it, is she?) the dog attack something, be it a cat, another dog, or a person, to the proper authorities. This would mean that her dog would *have* to remain on leash or in a fenced enclosure at all times. And the authorities *would* watch to make sure that the dog *is* kept as such, and if the dog is caught just *once* off-leash or out of the enclosure, it would be euthanized because it is classified as "vicious and dangerous" and the owner as irresponsible to own such a dog. She would probably not be allowed to own any other dogs after that one is euthanized, either.
Christina Websell - 14 Feb 2006 02:28 GMT > <snip> >> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of control and can't be trusted, if if kills cats, then it could just as > easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child. I don't agree. A lot of dogs (terriers in particular) will kill cats given the opportunity but are perfectly safe with children. I have never read anything that suggests that a dog that will kill a cat is therefore a danger to humans. Is this just your gut reaction, Adrian, or do you know something I don't?
Tweed
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 02:59 GMT > > if if kills cats, then it could just as > > easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child.
> I don't agree. A lot of dogs (terriers in particular) will kill > cats given the opportunity but are perfectly safe with children. I know this dog pretty well and I don't think he would hurt a child. However, he has always been very uneasy around drunk people. I don't know if it's the smell of alcohol, or the weird energy people have when they're drunk, but I've seen him react to them on the street, and he does get aggressive. So far, no incidents, as my friend keeps him away from drunks with "stay off" commands. However, if she's occupied with something, and the dog wanders off and then attacks a drunk person, this could be a big problem. It's unlikely this dog would kill an adult human - he's not that big a dog. But he could bite someone and draw blood, which could result in a lawsuit or even criminal charges.
Joyce
Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 21:27 GMT > > > if if kills cats, then it could just as > > > easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Joyce How difficult is it to keep your dog away from drunks?? For goodness sake. Is this some sort of excuse to say he is aggressive and should be put down? Many dogs will react to people who are acting strangely in a different way from the way they will be usually. Some will be afraid and will try to get away, others will be afraid and could attack. It depends on their temperament. I don't know the neighbourhood where your friend lives, obviously. Are drunks all over the place all the time there? Surely not.
Tweed
CatNipped - 15 Feb 2006 21:48 GMT >> > > if if kills cats, then it could just as >> > > easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Tweed I haven't joined in this discussion yet because this is another sore subject for me. You're absolutely right about how a dog might react to different people. I am extremely afraid of dogs because I was attacked by one when I was a child. Dogs can sense this fear and they tend to attack me where they might not attack anyone else. I get terrified when I'm riding my bike and I see a dog running loose - and even worse afraid when I'm walking (I feel that at least I have some chance of riding away fast enough on my bike, but I know I couldn't out run a dog on foot). It really pisses me off when people allow their dogs to run loose - even if they don't attack me they cause me a *LOT* of stress and I don't think that's fair and it's definitely against the law here.
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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 15 Feb 2006 21:55 GMT > I don't know the neighbourhood where your friend lives, obviously. Are > drunks all over the place all the time there? Surely not. Well, maybe not all over the place, but probably more than in some neighborhoods. It is a very poor area. Also, this friend tends to go out very late at night, and there are often one or two folks stumbling home from a night of partying, or are high on something (probably not alcohol).
Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 15 Feb 2006 22:17 GMT > Well, maybe not all over the place, but probably more than in some > neighborhoods. It is a very poor area. Also, this friend tends to go [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Joyce Joyce, is it possible that she keeps the dog off-leash in part because she reasons that he will be more able to defend her if she is attacked?
Going out late at night in what you've repeatedly described as, well, not a great place to be out at night, must be at least somewhat risky for her.
I wonder if she keeps the dog in part as a hedge against attack. If so, she might be reluctant to curb behaviors that she sees as contributing to her potential safety.
If all of that is the case, then you might need to take a slightly different route in encouraging her to be responsible. Rather than talking to her about pet responsibility and damage, you might brainstorm ways in which she can be safe without needing her dog to be off leash.
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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 15 Feb 2006 22:34 GMT > Joyce, is it possible that she keeps the dog off-leash in part because > she reasons that he will be more able to defend her if she is > attacked? Actually, I don't think so. When she takes him for long walks in the neighborhood, she does put him on the leash. The only time she lets him out off-leash is if she has to go out to her storage area, or the car, to bring out the trash barrels, etc. What I don't like about that is that she's not paying full attention to him at that time, since she's occupied with some other activity. And that's when he wanders off and gets in trouble.
Before the first cat-killing, she used to walk him off-leash, and he was mostly very well-behaved. He would trot ahead, but stop and wait at every street corner until she caught up, and gave him permission to cross the street. I used to go with them pretty often, actually. At first it was unnerving - it's really not a great neighborhood, but the three of us (me, her, and the dog) would take hour-long walks at 3 in the morning! We hardly ever saw anyone. Once in a while someone would come by, and yes, they did look drunk or high. She was able to keep her dog away from them by saying "Stay off! Stay off!" He does respond to voice commands. (Except when chasing prey!)
The people we encountered were always afraid of the dog, though. Which I found amazing, since to me, he doesn't *look* dangerous at all. He's a corgi/shepard mix, and has a shepard face, but he's very short. It's not like he's some 60-lb pit bull or something. Obviously, he's very predatory around cats, but I'm not sure why people are so afraid of him. But then, I know him, and he's very sweet to me, so it's hard for me to imagine seeing him as dangerous to *me*.
I do think I'm lucky not to have had any bad experiences on the street during those days of late-night walks. Actually, most of the time we chose other, much safer neighborhoods walk in, but sometimes she wanted to stay close to home. It wasn't my favorite place to walk at that hour, but nothing ever happened to us, so maybe the fear was overrated.
Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 15 Feb 2006 22:11 GMT > How difficult is it to keep your dog away from drunks?? For > goodness sake. Is this some sort of excuse to say he is aggressive [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > don't know the neighbourhood where your friend lives, obviously. > Are drunks all over the place all the time there? Surely not. I've heard that most animals will react negatively to people on a variety of drugs.
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Adrian - 14 Feb 2006 09:21 GMT >> <snip> >>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Tweed When I was very small a friend's cat was attacked by a dog, my friend tried to intervene and was badly bitten.
 Signature Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera) A House is not a home, without a cat. http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk
Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 21:41 GMT >>> <snip> >>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > tried > to intervene and was badly bitten. That is not at all the same as saying that a dog that will attack a cat will attack a child. I have been bitten on two occasions by my own dogs when I tried to break up a fight by prising jaws apart. They didn't even know they'd done it. I regarded this as totally different from "my dog bit me" I would never tolerate this and my dogs would have never dreamt of doing it, either.
Tweed
Adrian - 15 Feb 2006 21:51 GMT >>>> <snip> >>>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Tweed Can't you read, the dog did attack a child, requiring hospital treatment!
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Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 22:23 GMT >>>>> <snip> >>>>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Can't you read, the dog did attack a child, requiring hospital treatment! Yes, Adrian, I *can* read, thank you. I did not see a post which said the dog attacked a child. I have 793 unread messages on this group at this moment. I go to work and can't keep up with reading each and every one. There is no need to be rude and bad-mannered. How much nicer to have said "you might have missed the post that said the dog attacked a child.."
Tweed
Adrian - 15 Feb 2006 22:57 GMT >>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Tweed But it was the post you replied to.
Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 23:27 GMT >>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > But it was the post you replied to. Which dog attacked which child? Are you talking about your childhood friend who interfered between cat and dog? I'm getting lost here.
Tweed
Adrian - 16 Feb 2006 09:30 GMT <snip>
>>>>>> When I was very small a friend's cat was attacked by a dog, my >>>>>> friend tried [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Tweed It happend in 1963 so I don't remember all the details. I do remember the dog was chasing the cat and when my friend picked up the cat the dog attacked him, his arms were badly bitten.
 Signature Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera) A House is not a home, without a cat. http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk
Adrian - 16 Feb 2006 09:33 GMT > <snip> >>>>>>> When I was very small a friend's cat was attacked by a dog, my [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > the dog was chasing the cat and when my friend picked up the cat the > dog attacked him, his arms were badly bitten. PS I apologise for being snappy yesterday, I was having a very bad day.
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Christina Websell - 21 Feb 2006 00:54 GMT >> <snip> >>>>>>>> When I was very small a friend's cat was attacked by a dog, my [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > PS I apologise for being snappy yesterday, I was having a very bad day. Apology accepted.
Tweed
NMR - 21 Feb 2006 01:19 GMT > "Adrian" <anca@bigfoot.com> wrote in message None one can be mad at you Adrian :-)
Christina Websell - 24 Feb 2006 20:32 GMT >> "Adrian" <anca@bigfoot.com> wrote in message > > None one can be mad at you Adrian :-) Oh yes they can. I was annoyed by his post - "can't you read?" !!! Adrian was extremely rude to me, he knows it, he apologised, and as far as I'm concerned it's sorted with no hard feelings.
Tweed
Monique Y. Mudama - 15 Feb 2006 22:10 GMT > I don't agree. A lot of dogs (terriers in particular) will kill > cats given the opportunity but are perfectly safe with children. I > have never read anything that suggests that a dog that will kill a > cat is therefore a danger to humans. Is this just your gut > reaction, Adrian, or do you know something I don't? I have the same reservations. And one example of a dog attacking both a cat and a human doesn't prove that all dogs that attack cats will attack humans.
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Yowie - 13 Feb 2006 11:21 GMT > This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this > is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > him through commands, and is unwilling to make sure he's always on a > leash when outside. Show her this post I made back on March 19th, 2001, then ask her what she'd say to you if it was your cat that had accidently got out.
Subject: [Gore][R] Fred Author: Yowie
I promised a friend that I would post this. It is not a happy story and some sections will rate an R in the gore scale. I did not write it. The author is Michael msweet@despammed.com (which is a genuine e-mail address - its a resender that edits spam if you wish to contact him). I can also fill in some of the details if you to want me to, since I heard the story first hand from both Michael & his wife.
Unfortunately its a true story, and I therefore don't recommend reading it if you can't stomach violence. You have been warned.
<gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space> <gore warning space>
FRED
We have a cat. His name is Fred. He is 20 years old. This is very old for a cat.
Fred sits in the corner of our front yard most of the time, except when he is hungry. When Fred is hungry he miaows. If he can he comes inside the house and miaows at us until we feed him. Fred eats steak. Fred used to be big, but now he is thin. Fred is old. When we come home we find him in the driveway, waiting for us. He wants a pat. Fred is very friendly, and seems to like people a lot. No one has ever been bitten by Fred, or even scratched. Fred is very gentle.
A baby lives in the house. When Fred comes inside the baby tries to cuddle him. Babies are not very good at cuddling cats. Fred miaows when his hair is pulled. After a while Fred hisses. Then we have to go and save Fred, because Fred is old. Fred doesn't move very quickly. Sometimes he runs a bit, but then he sits down. Fred is almost deaf, and nearly blind.
One morning I woke up to the sound of a dogfight. The fight sounded like it was happening next door, so I stayed I bed. Then the barking got louder, and I heard a hissing. I thought, the dogs must be frightening poor old Fred! So I ran to the door, not even stopping to put any pants on.
There were 2 dogs in our front yard. A pig-dog, and a brown dog. The pig dog had the skin of Fred's neck in its jaws, and Fred was hissing. The other dog was biting at the bottom part of Fred. Fred was stretched sideways between the dogs. It was very noisy and frightening. I shouted at them, and ran out. The brown dog looked scared, and ran away. The pig dog ran around the side of the house. It had Fred. I chased after them, and trapped the pig dog near the back of the house. The pig dog was scary. I wondered how could I make the dog drop Fred. I picked up a big concrete brick and threw it down hard on the pig-dog's back. Then I hit the dog with a roof tile. The dog let go of Fred and whimpered.
Fred was making little miaowing sounds, again and again. There were white and pink tubes inside Fred. Fred's mouth opened and closed and the little sounds came out. The pig dog wagged its tail.
I tied up the pig dog with garden hose. Fred miaowed. I didn't know what to do. Fred looked awful.
I buried Fred in the garden. I tied the dog with rope. The men from the pound came, but when I looked the dog had got away. The men from the pound said I should have used a chain.
Later I went back to where Fred died. There was a red bit there. It looked like Fred's liver. I used some dead grass to pick it up. There were ants crawling on it. I threw the red thing on top of Fred's grave. Fred was dead.
Michael msweet@despammed.com
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 21:24 GMT > There were 2 dogs in our front yard. A pig-dog, and a brown dog. The pig > dog had the skin of Fred's neck in its jaws, and Fred was hissing. The other > dog was biting at the bottom part of Fred. Fred was stretched sideways > between the dogs. It was very noisy and frightening.... Oh, this sounds much too close to my recent experience with Smudge and the two pit bulls! Poor Fred, he wasn't as lucky as Smudge. :(
Joyce
Marina - 14 Feb 2006 04:06 GMT > > There were 2 dogs in our front yard. A pig-dog, and a brown dog. The pig > > dog had the skin of Fred's neck in its jaws, and Fred was hissing. The other [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Oh, this sounds much too close to my recent experience with Smudge and the > two pit bulls! Poor Fred, he wasn't as lucky as Smudge. :( I suppose your friend knows what happened to Smudge? Did that not sway her in any way?
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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 04:13 GMT > I suppose your friend knows what happened to Smudge? Did that not sway > her in any way? She does. And I think it's swayed her some, but not enough.
Joyce
Jane - 16 Feb 2006 14:26 GMT > > There were 2 dogs in our front yard. A pig-dog, and a brown dog. The pig > > dog had the skin of Fred's neck in its jaws, and Fred was hissing. The other > > dog was biting at the bottom part of Fred. Fred was stretched sideways > > between the dogs. It was very noisy and frightening.... Oh darn! how am I supposed to go to the morning meeting with a teary face now? It's all your fault. Poor poor Fred. At least he's playing by the Rainbow Bridge now, out of pain and no longer old and achy. Poor Fred.
Jane - owned and operated by Rita
Takayuki - 14 Feb 2006 03:46 GMT >Unfortunately its a true story, and I therefore don't recommend reading it >if you can't stomach violence. You have been warned. Thank you for the warning. I thought I could stomach violence because I watched "Freddy vs Jason", but this was too much for me.
But this is the reality, and if I were ever in a position to allow a cat to come to harm like that, I hope that I'll remember this story and not let it happen.
wafflycat - 13 Feb 2006 11:49 GMT > Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she? > > Thanks, > Joyce You are not being unreasonable. She is. She is being selfish, thoughtless, stupid, moronic, dim, pathetic and in reality, I doubt she *really* cares for her dog. If she really cares for her dog, she would not continue allowing it to act in such a way that it may one day end up being impounded and euthanised after being caught in the act of killing another creature. The more her dog is allowed to continue this way, the more it will realise that its owner sees this as acceptable, so it is entirely possible that the dog's killing sprees could escalate. How will your friend feel if her dog ends up attacking another dog: and possibly ending up as the dead victim in such an instance. How will she feel if her dog is killed by a motor vehicle?
Dogs are perfectly able to be controlled if they have owners with more than half a brain willing to put in the time & effort of training. This benefits the dog and the owner, as the dog & owner develop a very close bond. How would your friend feel if it was one of your cats her dog killed? Over here in the UK, if a dog kills in the way you describe, the owner would be held liable for damages as in law, dogs are rightly seen as controllable by their owners. If a dog is run over by a motor vehicle, again, the dog owner is liable for any damage to the vehicle etc., not the other way around. Your friend is being incredibly stupid. If she can't be bothered to have her dog on a leash, she really shouldn't have a dog. Stupid, stupid, stupid woman that she is. Mind you, the stupidity of some dog owners never fails to astound me. We've been having some TV progammes over here about owners with 'uncontrollable' dogs. In every case it's the stupid owner's fault. Once the owner is trained by someone who understands dogs being a pack animal and gets the owner to make sure the dog understands its correct place in what it perceives to be its pack (dog + owner + any family): the bottom, and the humans are placed above the dog in the 'pack', then a well-trained dog results. It's the reason I don't have a dog, I'd make a not very good dog owner, as I don't have the time to put in on training that would be needed, as well as look after husband, son, cats & household!
If she were my friend, the friendship would be over.
Cheers, helen s
MaryL - 13 Feb 2006 13:27 GMT > This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this > is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and > her irresponsibility with her dog. > > Thanks, > Joyce It's obvious that your friend has absolutely no sense of responsibility. So, you might inform her (correctly) that she can be held personally liable if he kills someone's pet and that person decides to sue. In some jurisdictions, the dog can be labeled a "risk" because of his past pattern of killing cats and could be euthanized under court order. Finally, she could face criminal charges if anything were to happen to a person who tried to intervene to save a pet, especially since your friend has full knowledge that her dog has a history of killing cats. If he ever attacks a person -- which can happen even with friendly dogs when they are in the act of attacking a smaller animal -- then your friend could face *serious* jail time.
I know, I'm deliberately making this sound as bad as possible, and she would not face the most serious consequences in most jurisdictions. However, all of this can and *has* happened in some areas. If she is not willing to do anything for the sake of her dog, perhaps she will do something to protect herself.
MaryL
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 21:44 GMT > It's obvious that your friend has absolutely no sense of responsibility. > So, you might inform her (correctly) that she can be held personally liable > if he kills someone's pet and that person decides to sue. In some > jurisdictions, the dog can be labeled a "risk" because of his past pattern > of killing cats and could be euthanized under court order. Thank you for this perspective. I hadn't thought of this, and considering this dog's pattern, it's only a matter of time before something else happens. So far, she's gotten away with the killings because they happened late at night, so nobody except her saw them happen. Neither of the cats had collars, so she didn't know who they belonged to. (If it had been my dog, I would have put up signs, trying to find the owners. It's only right - the poor people must have been heartbroken not to know what had happened to their cats. Although her neighborhood is full of ferals, so they might not have had homes.)
This friend is in serious denial about what could happen. Even after having the truth right in her face any number of times (not just the killings, but the many times he's gotten into tussles with cats and got himself scratched up, as well as the time he was hit by a car running after a cat), she refuses to see it, and uses lame excuses ("But it's right in front of my house," as if that's some kind of safety bubble) to justify her bad judgement.
I will collect these posts and email them to her. I think she needs more pressure than I have been able to put on her up to now.
Thanks, Joyce
P C - 13 Feb 2006 18:19 GMT On Date: Mon, Feb 13, 2006, 8:10am (EST+5) From: jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net
>This post contains some parts that are sad to >read, but mostly this is about an ongoing issue >(ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and her
>irresponsibility with her dog. I'd be willing to write her and tell here about Notter, my cat that was attcked in his own yard by loose dogs after hurricane Charley or Sammy my elderly neighbors cat that was more recently killed by 2 roaming dogs or how Bo my mother's cat spent over 12 hours in the tippy top of a tree where he'd been chased on the same night by those same dogs that killed Sammy, while my mother mourned him thinking he was dead. p
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 21:35 GMT > I'd be willing to write her and tell here about Notter, my cat that was > attcked in his own yard by loose dogs after hurricane Charley or Sammy > my elderly neighbors cat that was more recently killed by 2 roaming dogs Well, this friend knows all about how Smudge was attacked and nearly killed by two loose dogs just a few months ago. But more importantly, she *witnessed* the two cat killings that he has already done. She was very upset by it, but apparently, not upset enough to make sure he's kept under strict control at all times. She doesn't want to keep him from having the chance to "go out and sniff the night air, have a pee, and stretch his legs", other than his daily walk, that is. Why can't she just take him out for 5 or 10 minutes, *on a leash*, a few times an evening (in addition to his longer daily walk), if that's what he needs??)
<GRRRR>
Joyce
jmcquown - 14 Feb 2006 01:10 GMT > > I'd be willing to write her and tell here about Notter, my cat > that was > attcked in his own yard by loose dogs after hurricane [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Joyce Is there someplace she can rig up a long lead with a clip on the end and just keep the clip by the door? Then she just clips the lead onto the collar and the dog can roam as far as it wants (if she joins several together) without going out of the yard. They also sell these heavy-duty leads that are attached to a long metal spiral hook you screw into the ground with a lead & clip attached for this purpose. Then the dog can "go out and sniff the night air, have a pee, and stretch his legs" and she doesn't have to step beyond the doorway to let the dog out and back in.
Jill
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 02:54 GMT > Is there someplace she can rig up a long lead with a clip on the end and > just keep the clip by the door? I've been thinking of suggesting just that. Then he can hang out with her while she's doing whatever it is she's doing in her yard, or car, or storage area, etc. If he's on a leash, then she wouldn't need to pay strict attention to him. And it wouldn't be such a big hassle for her to get him on the leash every time she goes out. This is not unlike the set-up I used to have for Smudge when I used to keep her on a leash in front of my building.
Joyce
Stormin Mormon - 14 Feb 2006 14:37 GMT In hooman terms, she's an accessory to the crime. A material witness who has not yet come forward to testify. Complicit conspirator.
 Signature Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .
But more importantly, she *witnessed* the two cat killings that he has already done. She was very upset by it, but apparently, not upset enough to make sure he's kept under strict control at all times. She doesn't want to keep him from having the chance to "go out and sniff the night air, have a pee, and stretch his legs", other than his daily walk, that is. Why can't she just take him out for 5 or 10 minutes, *on a leash*, a few times an evening (in addition to his longer daily walk), if that's what he needs??)
<GRRRR>
Joyce
NMR - 13 Feb 2006 20:40 GMT Joyce
This is a dilemma between you and your friend it sucks big time. Personally how would you feel if it was your cat that it happen to. What if it is not a cat next time but a small child. Your friend is irresponsible and should be turned in.
The quote " he's just being a dog. He's not vicious -he's a wonderfully socialized animal who is mostly well-trained and obedient." That is not true I know plenty of dogs that could care less about cats the dog is far from well trained or obedient. Your friend needs a slap of reality big time. the comment "She feels that if people let their cats out, then they're irresponsible, too" well that would have ended my friendship right there what if the cat got out by accident. IMO your friend is being selfish and stubborn if she believes that. That way of thinking is going to come back and bite her in the a.s big time
I just had an recent encounter where a unleashed dog charged my family in a park. It went ok for the dog instead of my shooting it I carry at all times I have a CWL. Luckily I ended up macing the dog. I always have carried some since I started doing rescue work with the shelter; too many dog bites or idiot animal abusers. Before anyone jumps my a.s that may sound bad but if it was a choice between the dog and my family the dog would die if I had no choice or other option.
The dog got seized by animals control ( was released the owner ticketed) but the owner comments was I always have him under control he never does this. As someone who has worked with animal control I have heard that so many times that I want to drag the person to the child that got maimed and show them the damage their dogs did. That is why there is a leash law almost everywhere in the US. Orlando, Florida just made a law that all dogs have to be on a leash or chained during the daylight hours while they are in their own yards even if there is a proper fence.
NMR - 13 Feb 2006 22:15 GMT > Joyce Joyce here is something to email her every where in the USA if a dog that is off their property and or required to be on a leash injuries, damages, destroys property(s) or person(s). the owner is under full civil liability and is likely criminal at fault automatically. Watch judge Judy and the people court any dog owner that the dog is described as above losses always
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 23:04 GMT > Joyce here is something to email her every where in the USA if a dog that > is off their property and or required to be on a leash injuries, damages, > destroys property(s) or person(s). the owner is under full civil liability > and is likely criminal at fault automatically. Watch judge Judy and the > people court any dog owner that the dog is described as above losses always Also on Animal Precinct, Animal Cops, etc. (On Animal Planet.) Yep, I agree with this.
Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 15 Feb 2006 22:05 GMT > Orlando, Florida just made a law that all dogs have to be on a leash > or chained during the daylight hours while they are in their own yards > even if there is a proper fence. I am so glad that around here, the rule is "leash OR voice control." That is to say, there may be leash laws in neighborhoods, but you can take your dog hiking without leash, and there are dog parks where unleashed dogs are expected. And certainly a dog within a fence doesn't need to be leashed.
I can't imagine why anyone would want to own a dog that must be tied down at all times. If I lived in Orlando and wanted a dog, I'd move.
That being said, I've never met a vicious dog here, and the dogs I've met on the trail have all been very well behaved. They'd have to be; trails often go past prarie dogs, cattle, and horses, or you have to pass by riders on horseback.
All of that being said, I also can't imagine keeping a dog offleash on neighborhood walks when the dog has already killed and injured several cats, and been injured himself while offleash. If putting the leash on the dog for a short walk seems like "too much trouble," I wonder if the dog is so poorly behaved it won't even sit still for the leash to be attached. That doesn't sound like a well-trained dog to me.
Sounds to me like the woman has blinders on. I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince her to change her ways. She may be a great person in other respects, but she has a blind spot here that has already hurt and killed several cats, not to mention sending her dog to the vet.
 Signature monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully
pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca
Chakolate - 13 Feb 2006 21:21 GMT jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net wrote in news:43f03f0b$0$58075 $742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:
> This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this > is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and > her irresponsibility with her dog. I'm assuming here that your friend has good qualities in other areas or she wouldn't be your friend. Now you must decide just how much you want to keep her as your friend.
Reporting her to animal control will either do nothing or quite likely result in the euthanizing of the dog. (It's a damn shame that the owners aren't the ones to be put down.) I don't say don't do it, I just say it might not do any good.
I think I would not only call animal control, I would also tell her that as a cat owner (as if anybody ever owned a cat) I could not in good conscience continue to be her friend. She is letting a known cat-killer run loose, and she is endangering your cat. After all, you can't be sure that your cat won't get out by accident just when her dog is out running the streets.
I feel very sorry for the dog. He deserves better.
Chak
 Signature In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. --Stephen Jay Gould
Stormin Mormon - 14 Feb 2006 14:37 GMT Wonder if the dog is any relation to the shooters at Columbine school? Might be the dog is poorly parented even as those kids were poorly parented.
Wonder if the dog is on ritalin?
 Signature Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net wrote in news:43f03f0b$0$58075 $742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:
> This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this > is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and > her irresponsibility with her dog. I'm assuming here that your friend has good qualities in other areas or she wouldn't be your friend. Now you must decide just how much you want to keep her as your friend.
Reporting her to animal control will either do nothing or quite likely result in the euthanizing of the dog. (It's a damn shame that the owners aren't the ones to be put down.) I don't say don't do it, I just say it might not do any good.
I think I would not only call animal control, I would also tell her that as a cat owner (as if anybody ever owned a cat) I could not in good conscience continue to be her friend. She is letting a known cat-killer run loose, and she is endangering your cat. After all, you can't be sure that your cat won't get out by accident just when her dog is out running the streets.
I feel very sorry for the dog. He deserves better.
Chak
 Signature In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. --Stephen Jay Gould
Annie Wxill - 13 Feb 2006 22:57 GMT ...>
> I don't know what do to at this point. I've given her all the arguments > I can think of, and she's unwilling to change her mind. She feels that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >...> > Joyce Does your community have a leash law? Does it apply to cats as well as dogs?
If the answers are yes and no, your friend is breaking the law, and the cat owners are not. Perhaps your friend should be made aware of any penalties involved.
If your friend's dog is killing and injuring cats that are on their owner's property, or, at least not on her property, there probably is a law and penalty against that, too. She may also be liable for vet bills for the injured cats and maybe more, should the owner choose to take her to court. Perhaps your friend should also be made aware of legal consequences.
If your friend walks her dog on a regular basis, eventually someone will recognize the dog and her and make the connection between the loose dog and the maiming and killing of cats in the neighborhood. Someone will call the police, and she may have to go to court and lose ownership of her dog or have it sentenced to death as the worse outcome, or will be required to keep it on a leash and muzzled as the best outcome. Talk about hassles.
Annie
Enfilade - 13 Feb 2006 23:12 GMT > Does your community have a leash law? Does it apply to cats as well as > dogs? If she wants to risk her own dog's life by letting it run around off leash, that is her business...but since the dog has been proven to kill cats before, then it is now HER RESPONSIBILITY to make sure this dog is no longer in a position to attack cats (or children).
If your area has a leash law, then she is doing something illegal by letting her dog loose that way.
What she is doing is reckless endangerment, of the neighbourhood cats and neighbourhood people.
I do not know what you could do to "make" her change at this point, save calling the police every time you see her dog off leash to make a complaint and organizing others to do the same. Or putting around flyers in the neighborhood warning cat owners to keep their pets indoors.
--Fil
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 23:47 GMT > If your area has a leash law, then she is doing something illegal by > letting her dog loose that way. There are definitely leash laws in my area.
> I do not know what you could do to "make" her change at this point, > save calling the police every time you see her dog off leash to make a > complaint and organizing others to do the same. Or putting around > flyers in the neighborhood warning cat owners to keep their pets > indoors. Unfortunately, she lives in a neighborhood where there are lots of other irresponsible pet owners, as well as many stray dogs and cats, and a big feral cat population. It's not the kind of area where people are going to call the police because there's a loose dog. I could put up flyers, but I'm not so sure people would care. They let their cats out anyway, even though there are plenty of dogs wandering around. In fact, despite all I've said about her, my friend is more responsible than many people in her neighborhood, regarding pets. But I don't know them, and I do know her, so I'm focusing my energy where I might be able to do some good.
It's also not an area where the police will bother responding in a timely manner, even for violent crimes, much less to deal with a loose dog. It's a poor minority neighborhood, people are living in survival mode, and I don't think you could count on the police to do anything about it, considering they can barely deal with the violent crime perpetrated by humans against each other. I don't mean to imply that animals count less than people, but to the police, I think they do, so if they can't even address human-on-human crime adequately, they're not going to bother with irresponsible pet owners. Given the environment, I don't think that involving officials will be much help, unfortunately.
Thanks, Joyce
Enfilade - 14 Feb 2006 15:09 GMT > It's also not an area where the police will bother responding in a > timely manner, even for violent crimes, much less to deal with a loose [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not going to bother with irresponsible pet owners. Given the environment, > I don't think that involving officials will be much help, unfortunately. Boy do I know what that's like. If you call about noise or drug users, they ask if your life is in danger and if it's not, they'll get back to you in a few days.
That being the case, maybe you can't really "Do" anything but ask yourself how much you can deal with being in the company of a person who apparently does not care about the welfare of cats. I know I have had to make some unpleasant ethical choices to stay in contact with certain members of my family, so, it's not as easy as "dump her," but you might have to minimize contact or avoid her when her dog is running about loose.
--Fil
Stormin Mormon - 14 Feb 2006 17:54 GMT Reminds me of the guy who called to report a burglar in the yard. The cops said they couldn't be there for an hour. He rung off, and called back about two minutes later, and said he'd just gone out with his gun, and shot the burglar dead, and the guy was laying in the yard.
About a minute later, the yard is swarming with cop cars, and they catch the burglar.
One of the cops asks the guy "Didn't you say you had a gun and just killed him" and the guy replys "didn't you say you couldn't get here for an hour?"
 Signature Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .
Boy do I know what that's like. If you call about noise or drug users, they ask if your life is in danger and if it's not, they'll get back to you in a few days.
That being the case, maybe you can't really "Do" anything but ask yourself how much you can deal with being in the company of a person who apparently does not care about the welfare of cats. I know I have had to make some unpleasant ethical choices to stay in contact with certain members of my family, so, it's not as easy as "dump her," but you might have to minimize contact or avoid her when her dog is running about loose.
--Fil
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 22:18 GMT > Reminds me of the guy who called to report a burglar in the yard. The cops > said they couldn't be there for an hour. He rung off, and called back about > two minutes later, and said he'd just gone out with his gun, and shot the > burglar dead, and the guy was laying in the yard.
> About a minute later, the yard is swarming with cop cars, and they catch the > burglar.
> One of the cops asks the guy "Didn't you say you had a gun and just killed > him" and the guy replys "didn't you say you couldn't get here for an hour?" LOL!!!! Exactly.
Joyce
Christina Websell - 14 Feb 2006 02:14 GMT > Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she? My opinion is that she is being irresponsible with her dog. She needs to control it far more closely. It is not acceptable to let your dog wander out of your immediate control and let it kill cats. However, if she takes no notice of your advice, this is a difficult one for your friendship. It depends on how much you value her. I might say "if you do not make a real effort to stop your dog killing pet cats I'm not sure if I can continue to be your friend."
Tweed
polonca12000 - 14 Feb 2006 19:13 GMT > This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this > is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > treatment.) But sometimes it goes badly for the cat. About a year ago, > he killed one, right in front of my friend. <snip>
> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she? > > Thanks, > Joyce What if some animal kills her dog just like the dog killed the cat and she didn't really care? And what if the dog is run over by a car like it almost happened? How can she say noone was harmed by the dog being loose when a cat has already been killed by the dog? And what if an owner of a cat that the dog is attacking intervenes and gets bitten by the dog? Authorities would certainly take it seriously and she could lose the dog or worse. There are a lot of cats who are indoor-outdoor and there are feral cats. It gives no right to the dog to kill them just because they are not inside at all times. Your friend isn't prepared to limit her dog's freedom but at the same time says cats need to be confined at all times? I do hope the posts we wrote would convince your friend to stop acting irresponsibly the way she is now. Polonca and Soncek
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 22:21 GMT > There are a lot of cats who are indoor-outdoor and there are feral cats. > It gives no right to the dog to kill them just because they are not > inside at all times. Your friend isn't prepared to limit her dog's > freedom but at the same time says cats need to be confined at all times? I think it's just like saying, to a woman who has just been attacked, "Well, what were you doing out in that neighborhood at that hour?"
> I do hope the posts we wrote would convince your friend to stop acting > irresponsibly the way she is now. Yes, I really appreciate everyone's contributions.
Thanks, Joyce
sriddles@aol.com - 16 Feb 2006 15:23 GMT > Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she? > > Thanks, > Joyce You might tell her what happened to me, it's the ultimate defense for keeping a dog on a leash. My Happy saw a stray dog running, somehow jerked backwards out of his collar and took off chasing it. He ran in front of a car and was killed right in front of me. You just don't know what a chaser is going to do; they don't think about anything but what they're chasing. If that doesn't make her think, I imagine nothing would.
Sherry
Gabey8 - 17 Feb 2006 07:57 GMT Maybe you can find out the laws in your area regarding dogs that have killed other people's pets.
I know from having watched Animal Planet's program about animal control officers based in San Francisco, that they have a court hearing for possible "vicious and dangerous" dogs. Not only can the dog's owner be punished with fines, at the least, but one possible result of the hearing is that the dog can be taken from the owner and put down. :o(
She shouldn't be quick to judge people whose cats are out as "irresponsible". What if the cat accidentally got outside somehow?
Anyway, I don't know what the laws are in your locality, but chances are that there are SERIOUS legal repercussions for owning a pet that has killed or mauled other people's pets.
If she doesn't want to find out the hard way, by having a bereaved cat owner taking legal action against her and her off-leash dog, she should keep the dog ON THE LEASH at all times.
Donna
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 17 Feb 2006 08:33 GMT > I know from having watched Animal Planet's program about animal control > officers based in San Francisco, that they have a court hearing for > possible "vicious and dangerous" dogs. Not only can the dog's owner be > punished with fines, at the least, but one possible result of the hearing > is that the dog can be taken from the owner and put down. :o( Yes, I saw that episode too. (About the two pit bulls who attacked a neighbor's small dog, right? One of the dogs did get put down, but their people got the other dog back, I think.)
We live across the bay in Oakland, so the laws might be different from in SF, but probably not *that* different.
Thanks for your input. This is a helpful perspective.
Joyce
Karen - 17 Feb 2006 15:03 GMT > > I know from having watched Animal Planet's program about animal control > > officers based in San Francisco, that they have a court hearing for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Joyce You might tell her too that more and more people use DNA evidence to pinpoint what killed their cat. I just listend to an Animal forensics scientist on NPR the other day and while they help with crimes the majority of what comes in, besides bloodline proof, is owners of killed cats looking for proof. They mentioned one in which a dog was under suspicion but it turned out to be bobcat DNA.
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