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Annoyed with a friend (TW-ish)

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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 08:10 GMT
This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this
is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and
her irresponsibility with her dog.

This friend of mine has had her dog for about 7 years. He's a wonderful
dog and I'm pretty attached to him. My issue is with the fact that she
often lets him off his leash in areas where I think it's not appropriate.
She used to walk him off-leash all the time, in the middle of an urban
area. These walks were almost always late at night, so it's not like
there were a lot of people around. But he liked to chase cats, and would
sometimes go off running after them. She thought that was just fine,
that he was having his doggy fun, and that no-one was harmed by it.

Then he started having a number of encounters with cats that usually went
badly for him (scratches, including one that was bad enough to require
vet care). One time, he almost got himself killed chasing a cat across
the street, and getting hit by a car. (That required serious veterinary
treatment.) But sometimes it goes badly for the cat. About a year ago,
he killed one, right in front of my friend.

After that happened, she swore she wouldn't let him off his leash
anymore. But she wasn't very diligent about it, and would sometimes
be too lazy (or perhaps, didn't want to "restrict his freedom"), so
she'd take him out and let him run free. He is mostly well-trained and
obeys my friend's commands, but when he sees a cat, he can't control
himself - or, more to the point, my friend can't control him.

Anyway, since the first cat killing, he's had another run-in with a
cat, that time getting scratched up himself. Then, a few weeks ago, my
friend told me that her dog had once again killed a cat (in front of
her). Her excuse: "It was right in my neighborhood, I didn't think it
would happen so close to home." HUH? A dog is supposed to understand
this?

And she still lets him out when she goes to her car or does some
other thing in her yard, etc. He'll wander one or two houses up the
street. And today, she told me that he had gotten scratched up by
yet another encounter with a cat.

I told her that I thought she was being really irresponsible and that
she couldn't keep letting him get out without a leash. She said that
she was unwilling to keep him inside when she went out in the yard. So
I said, "then put him on the leash." Her: "That's too much trouble
for just a few minutes of being outside." She just refused to budge
on this. I said, "Next time he might kill a cat that's someone's pet,
and that person is going to be just as heartbroken as you would be if
your dog was killed." That gave her pause, but I don't think it changed
her mind. She actually said she'd feel "horrible" if he killed another
cat, but apparently, not horrible enough to make sure he can't ever do
it.

I don't know what do to at this point. I've given her all the arguments
I can think of, and she's unwilling to change her mind. She feels that
if people let their cats out, then they're irresponsible, too. I think
that's blaming the victim. Maybe one can't control what other people do,
but she could certainly choose to be responsible with her own dog.

And I'm not blaming her dog - he's just being a dog. He's not vicious -
he's a wonderfully socialized animal who is mostly well-trained and
obedient. It's just this one area where my friend is unable to control
him through commands, and is unwilling to make sure he's always on a
leash when outside.

Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?

Thanks,
Joyce
Yoj - 13 Feb 2006 09:04 GMT
> This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this
> is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> Thanks,
> Joyce

She is being unreasonable and irresponsible.  There isn't anything you can
do.  Oh, you could report her to animal control, but they'd have to catch
her in the act, which is unlikely, and then she'd probably get just a small
fine, which is probably less than some of the vet bills have been.

Joy
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 21:19 GMT
> She is being unreasonable and irresponsible.  There isn't anything you can
> do.  Oh, you could report her to animal control, but they'd have to catch
> her in the act, which is unlikely, and then she'd probably get just a small
> fine, which is probably less than some of the vet bills have been.

Also, it would really damage our friendship. As much as I hate how she's
behaving, she is a very good friend, and has been for 14 years. I don't
take that lightly. It's not out of the question (for me to report her),
but I'm not at that point yet.

Thanks for the reply!

Joyce
Adrian - 13 Feb 2006 21:57 GMT
>  > She is being unreasonable and irresponsible.  There isn't anything
>  you can > do.  Oh, you could report her to animal control, but
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Joyce

I honestly don't know how you can continue a friendship with someone so
selfish. :-(
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 22:18 GMT
> I honestly don't know how you can continue a friendship with
> someone so selfish. :-(

One thing I don't want to do here is defend my choice to be this
woman's friend. That's not why I posted here. I don't think that I
should be in the hot seat - I'm not the one who is doing anything
objectionable. Let's keep the focus where it belongs.

I don't mean to single you out, Adrian, because one or two other people
have responded similarly. So this is for everyone who has suggested I
dump this friend. I don't dump people easily, and while I think what
she's doing is wrong, I don't automatically cut people off because they
do something I don't approve of. (If I did that, I'd have no friends at
all - everyone does *something* I disapprove of, sooner or later.)

I'm not saying that I don't judge her - I do. But judging someone and
ending a relationship with them are two different things. I think it's
possible to remain a friend to her, while being honest about my opinion,
and holding her accountable for her behavior. As Chak suggested, this
friend does indeed have many other qualities I love, and we've been
close a long time. I feel at this point that I would do more good re:
this issue if I hung in there and continued to pressure her about it.

Please don't turn this issue into a question of whether I should
continue to have a friendship with this person. Please trust that I
have my reasons. All I'm asking for is support so that I can continue
to confront her about her behavior when it comes up.

Thanks,
Joyce
Takayuki - 14 Feb 2006 03:37 GMT
>I'm not saying that I don't judge her - I do. But judging someone and
>ending a relationship with them are two different things. I think it's
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>have my reasons. All I'm asking for is support so that I can continue
>to confront her about her behavior when it comes up.

I think that's a good policy, Joyce.  You're friends because you're
friends.  I don't see any reason to have to give that up.  You've had
a scary experience with Smudge having been attacked and almost killed,
*and* you're her friend, so you're a credible source for an opposing
point of view.  Keep subtly working on her. :)
Stormin Mormon - 14 Feb 2006 14:32 GMT
It surely would be a test of the friendship. I'm a little surprised that
you've written to a kitty message board and said you know of a d-g who has
killed two cats to date. And that you aren't taking legal action to protect
the next several cats who are endangered. It sounds as if your so-called
friendship with this documented cat killer is more important than protecting
cats.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

Yoj <joygaylord@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> She is being unreasonable and irresponsible.  There isn't anything you can
> do.  Oh, you could report her to animal control, but they'd have to catch
> her in the act, which is unlikely, and then she'd probably get just a small
> fine, which is probably less than some of the vet bills have been.

Also, it would really damage our friendship. As much as I hate how she's
behaving, she is a very good friend, and has been for 14 years. I don't
take that lightly. It's not out of the question (for me to report her),
but I'm not at that point yet.

Thanks for the reply!

Joyce
Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 22:42 GMT
> It surely would be a test of the friendship. I'm a little surprised that
> you've written to a kitty message board and said you know of a d-g who has
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> protecting
> cats.

What???  This reminds me why I once had you killfiled. You are going back in
again.  You talk such rubbish I just don't want to hear it.
Tweed
idontmind@gmail.com - 13 Feb 2006 09:39 GMT
> This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this
> is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and
> her irresponsibility with her dog.
<snip>

Well, if she doesn't care enough about anyone else's cat to keep him on
lead, then she needs to think about his own life.  If he's running
after prey, it's just a matter of time before he gets hit by a car and
killed.

There are plenty of places she can let him run off-lead that are safe;
to do so in an urban setting is irresponsible, not just to her
neighbors, but to HIM.

Two dead cats, and being hit by one car SHOULD be enough for her to
realize the error of her ways.  How many will it take before she "gets"
that being off-lead for him is a REALLY bad idea?  No dog can be
trusted 100%, especially when it comes to chasing prey.

Print out these responses and send them to her.  Tell her you are
really upset about this.  I would be, too.

-L.
Adrian - 13 Feb 2006 10:16 GMT
<snip>
> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?
>
> Thanks,
> Joyce

Your 'friend' should be reported to animal control, she is being totally
irresponsible. That dog has shown on more than one occasion that it is out
of control and can't be trusted, if if kills cats, then it could just as
easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

Magic Mood Jeep© - 13 Feb 2006 12:40 GMT
> <snip>
>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that it is out of control and can't be trusted, if it kills cats,
> then it could just as easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child.

I agree with Adrian.  Over here they have what is a 'vicious and dangerous
dog' status, but unfortunately, it needs to be documented - in other words,
someone other than your friend needs to witness and report (I say other than
your friend because we know *she's* not going to report it, is she?) the dog
attack something, be it a cat, another dog, or a person, to the proper
authorities.  This would mean that her dog would *have* to remain on leash
or in a fenced enclosure at all times.  And the authorities *would* watch to
make sure that the dog *is* kept as such, and if the dog is caught just
*once* off-leash or out of the enclosure, it would be euthanized because it
is classified as "vicious and dangerous" and the owner as irresponsible to
own such  a dog.  She would probably not be allowed to own any other dogs
after that one is euthanized, either.
Christina Websell - 14 Feb 2006 02:28 GMT
> <snip>
>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of control and can't be trusted, if if kills cats, then it could just as
> easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child.

I don't agree.  A lot of dogs (terriers in particular) will kill cats given
the opportunity but are perfectly safe with children.
I have never read anything that suggests that a dog that will kill a cat is
therefore a danger to humans.
Is this just your gut reaction, Adrian, or do you know something I don't?

Tweed
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 02:59 GMT
> > if if kills cats, then it could just as
> > easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child.

> I don't agree.  A lot of dogs (terriers in particular) will kill
> cats given the opportunity but are perfectly safe with children.

I know this dog pretty well and I don't think he would hurt a child.
However, he has always been very uneasy around drunk people. I don't
know if it's the smell of alcohol, or the weird energy people have
when they're drunk, but I've seen him react to them on the street,
and he does get aggressive. So far, no incidents, as my friend keeps
him away from drunks with "stay off" commands. However, if she's
occupied with something, and the dog wanders off and then attacks a
drunk person, this could be a big problem. It's unlikely this dog
would kill an adult human - he's not that big a dog. But he could
bite someone and draw blood, which could result in a lawsuit or even
criminal charges.

Joyce
Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 21:27 GMT
> > > if if kills cats, then it could just as
> > > easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Joyce

How difficult is it to keep your dog away from drunks??  For goodness sake.
Is this some sort of excuse to say he is aggressive and should be put down?
Many dogs will react to people who are acting strangely in a different way
from the way they will be usually.  Some will be afraid and will try to get
away, others will be afraid and could attack.  It depends on their
temperament.
I don't know the neighbourhood where your friend lives, obviously.  Are
drunks all over the place all the time there?  Surely not.

Tweed
CatNipped - 15 Feb 2006 21:48 GMT
>> > > if if kills cats, then it could just as
>> > > easily kill, or seriously injure, a small child.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Tweed

I haven't joined in this discussion yet because this is another sore subject
for me.  You're absolutely right about how a dog might react to different
people.  I am extremely afraid of dogs because I was attacked by one when I
was a child.  Dogs can sense this fear and they tend to attack me where they
might not attack anyone else.  I get terrified when I'm riding my bike and I
see a dog running loose - and even worse afraid when I'm walking (I feel
that at least I have some chance of riding away fast enough on my bike, but
I know I couldn't out run a dog on foot).  It really pisses me off when
people allow their dogs to run loose - even if they don't attack me they
cause me a *LOT* of stress and I don't think that's fair and it's definitely
against the law here.

Signature

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 15 Feb 2006 21:55 GMT
> I don't know the neighbourhood where your friend lives, obviously.  Are
> drunks all over the place all the time there?  Surely not.

Well, maybe not all over the place, but probably more than in some
neighborhoods. It is a very poor area. Also, this friend tends to go
out very late at night, and there are often one or two folks stumbling
home from a night of partying, or are high on something (probably not
alcohol).

Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 15 Feb 2006 22:17 GMT
> Well, maybe not all over the place, but probably more than in some
> neighborhoods. It is a very poor area. Also, this friend tends to go
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Joyce

Joyce, is it possible that she keeps the dog off-leash in part because
she reasons that he will be more able to defend her if she is
attacked?

Going out late at night in what you've repeatedly described as, well,
not a great place to be out at night, must be at least somewhat risky
for her.

I wonder if she keeps the dog in part as a hedge against attack.  If
so, she might be reluctant to curb behaviors that she sees as
contributing to her potential safety.

If all of that is the case, then you might need to take a slightly
different route in encouraging her to be responsible.  Rather than
talking to her about pet responsibility and damage, you might
brainstorm ways in which she can be safe without needing her dog to be
off leash.

Signature

monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 15 Feb 2006 22:34 GMT
> Joyce, is it possible that she keeps the dog off-leash in part because
> she reasons that he will be more able to defend her if she is
> attacked?

Actually, I don't think so. When she takes him for long walks in the
neighborhood, she does put him on the leash. The only time she lets
him out off-leash is if she has to go out to her storage area, or the
car, to bring out the trash barrels, etc. What I don't like about that
is that she's not paying full attention to him at that time, since
she's occupied with some other activity. And that's when he wanders
off and gets in trouble.

Before the first cat-killing, she used to walk him off-leash, and he
was mostly very well-behaved. He would trot ahead, but stop and wait at
every street corner until she caught up, and gave him permission to
cross the street. I used to go with them pretty often, actually. At
first it was unnerving - it's really not a great neighborhood, but the
three of us (me, her, and the dog) would take hour-long walks at 3 in
the morning! We hardly ever saw anyone. Once in a while someone would
come by, and yes, they did look drunk or high. She was able to keep her
dog away from them by saying "Stay off! Stay off!" He does respond to
voice commands. (Except when chasing prey!)

The people we encountered were always afraid of the dog, though. Which
I found amazing, since to me, he doesn't *look* dangerous at all. He's
a corgi/shepard mix, and has a shepard face, but he's very short. It's
not like he's some 60-lb pit bull or something. Obviously, he's very
predatory around cats, but I'm not sure why people are so afraid of him.
But then, I know him, and he's very sweet to me, so it's hard for me to
imagine seeing him as dangerous to *me*.

I do think I'm lucky not to have had any bad experiences on the street
during those days of late-night walks. Actually, most of the time we
chose other, much safer neighborhoods walk in, but sometimes she wanted
to stay close to home. It wasn't my favorite place to walk at that hour,
but nothing ever happened to us, so maybe the fear was overrated.

Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 15 Feb 2006 22:11 GMT
> How difficult is it to keep your dog away from drunks??  For
> goodness sake.  Is this some sort of excuse to say he is aggressive
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> don't know the neighbourhood where your friend lives, obviously.
> Are drunks all over the place all the time there?  Surely not.

I've heard that most animals will react negatively to people on a
variety of drugs.

Signature

monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Adrian - 14 Feb 2006 09:21 GMT
>> <snip>
>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Tweed

When I was very small a friend's cat was attacked by a dog, my friend tried
to intervene and was badly bitten.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 21:41 GMT
>>> <snip>
>>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> tried
> to intervene and was badly bitten.

That is not at all the same as saying that a dog that will attack a cat will
attack a child.  I have been bitten on two occasions by my own dogs when I
tried to break up a fight by prising jaws apart. They didn't even know
they'd done it.
I regarded this as totally different from "my dog bit me"  I would never
tolerate this and my dogs would have never dreamt of doing it, either.

Tweed
Adrian - 15 Feb 2006 21:51 GMT
>>>> <snip>
>>>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Tweed

Can't you read, the dog did attack a child, requiring hospital treatment!
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 22:23 GMT
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Can't you read, the dog did attack a child, requiring hospital treatment!

Yes, Adrian, I *can* read, thank you.  I did not see a post which said the
dog attacked a child.  I have 793 unread messages on this group at this
moment.  I go to work and can't keep up with reading each and every one.
There is no need to be rude and bad-mannered.
How much nicer to have said "you might have missed the post that said the
dog attacked a child.."

Tweed
Adrian - 15 Feb 2006 22:57 GMT
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Tweed

But it was the post you replied to.
Christina Websell - 15 Feb 2006 23:27 GMT
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> But it was the post you replied to.

Which dog attacked which child?  Are you talking about your childhood friend
who interfered between cat and dog?  I'm getting lost here.

Tweed
Adrian - 16 Feb 2006 09:30 GMT
<snip>
>>>>>> When I was very small a friend's cat was attacked by a dog, my
>>>>>> friend tried
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Tweed

It happend in 1963 so I don't remember all the details. I do remember the
dog was chasing the cat and when my friend picked up the cat the dog
attacked him, his arms were badly bitten.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

Adrian - 16 Feb 2006 09:33 GMT
> <snip>
>>>>>>> When I was very small a friend's cat was attacked by a dog, my
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> the dog was chasing the cat and when my friend picked up the cat the
> dog attacked him, his arms were badly bitten.

PS I apologise for being snappy yesterday, I was having a very bad day.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

Christina Websell - 21 Feb 2006 00:54 GMT
>> <snip>
>>>>>>>> When I was very small a friend's cat was attacked by a dog, my
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> PS I apologise for being snappy yesterday, I was having a very bad day.

Apology accepted.

Tweed
NMR - 21 Feb 2006 01:19 GMT
> "Adrian" <anca@bigfoot.com> wrote in message

None one can be mad at you Adrian :-)
Christina Websell - 24 Feb 2006 20:32 GMT
>> "Adrian" <anca@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>
> None one can be mad at you Adrian :-)

Oh yes they can.   I was annoyed by his post - "can't you read?" !!!
Adrian was extremely rude to me, he knows it, he apologised, and as far as
I'm concerned it's sorted with no hard feelings.

Tweed
Monique Y. Mudama - 15 Feb 2006 22:10 GMT
> I don't agree.  A lot of dogs (terriers in particular) will kill
> cats given the opportunity but are perfectly safe with children.  I
> have never read anything that suggests that a dog that will kill a
> cat is therefore a danger to humans.  Is this just your gut
> reaction, Adrian, or do you know something I don't?

I have the same reservations.  And one example of a dog attacking both
a cat and a human doesn't prove that all dogs that attack cats will
attack humans.

Signature

monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Yowie - 13 Feb 2006 11:21 GMT
> This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this
> is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> him through commands, and is unwilling to make sure he's always on a
> leash when outside.

Show her this post I made back on March 19th, 2001, then ask her what she'd
say to you if it was your cat that had accidently got out.

Subject: [Gore][R] Fred
Author: Yowie

I promised a friend that I would post this. It is not a happy story and some
sections will rate an R in the gore scale. I did not write it. The author is
Michael msweet@despammed.com (which is a genuine e-mail address - its a
resender that edits spam if you wish to contact him). I can also fill in
some of the details if you to want me to, since I heard the story first hand
from both Michael & his wife.

Unfortunately its a true story, and I therefore don't recommend reading it
if you can't stomach violence. You have been warned.

<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>
<gore warning space>

FRED

We have a cat. His name is Fred. He is 20 years old. This is very old for a
cat.

Fred sits in the corner of our front yard most of the time, except when he
is hungry. When Fred is hungry he miaows. If he can he comes inside the
house and miaows at us until we feed him. Fred eats steak. Fred used to be
big, but now he is thin. Fred is old. When we come home we find him in the
driveway, waiting for us. He wants a pat. Fred is very friendly, and seems
to like people a lot. No one has ever been bitten by Fred, or even
scratched. Fred is very gentle.

A baby lives in the house. When Fred comes inside the baby tries to cuddle
him. Babies are not very good at cuddling cats. Fred miaows when his hair is
pulled. After a while Fred hisses. Then we have to go and save Fred, because
Fred is old. Fred doesn't move very quickly. Sometimes he runs a bit, but
then he sits down. Fred is almost deaf, and nearly blind.

One morning I woke up to the sound of a dogfight. The fight sounded like it
was happening next door, so I stayed I bed. Then the barking got louder, and
I heard a hissing. I thought, the dogs must be frightening poor old Fred! So
I ran to the door, not even stopping to put any pants on.

There were 2 dogs in our front yard. A pig-dog, and a brown dog. The pig
dog had the skin of Fred's neck in its jaws, and Fred was hissing. The other
dog was biting at the bottom part of Fred.  Fred was stretched sideways
between the dogs. It was very noisy and frightening. I shouted at them, and
ran out. The brown dog looked scared, and ran away. The pig dog ran around
the side of the house. It had Fred. I chased after them, and trapped the pig
dog near the back of the house. The pig dog was scary. I wondered how could
I make the dog drop Fred. I picked up a big concrete brick and threw it down
hard on the pig-dog's back. Then I hit the dog with a roof tile. The dog let
go of Fred and whimpered.

Fred was making little miaowing sounds, again and again. There were white
and pink tubes inside Fred. Fred's mouth opened and closed and the little
sounds came out. The pig dog wagged its tail.

I tied up the pig dog with garden hose. Fred miaowed. I didn't know what to
do. Fred looked awful.

I buried Fred in the garden. I tied the dog with rope. The men from the
pound came, but when I looked the dog had got away. The men from the pound
said I should have used a chain.

Later I went back to where Fred died. There was a red bit there. It looked
like Fred's liver. I used some dead grass to pick it up. There were ants
crawling on it. I threw the red thing on top of Fred's grave. Fred was dead.

Michael msweet@despammed.com
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 21:24 GMT
> There were 2 dogs in our front yard. A pig-dog, and a brown dog. The pig
> dog had the skin of Fred's neck in its jaws, and Fred was hissing. The other
> dog was biting at the bottom part of Fred.  Fred was stretched sideways
> between the dogs. It was very noisy and frightening....

Oh, this sounds much too close to my recent experience with Smudge and the
two pit bulls! Poor Fred, he wasn't as lucky as Smudge. :(

Joyce
Marina - 14 Feb 2006 04:06 GMT
>  > There were 2 dogs in our front yard. A pig-dog, and a brown dog. The pig
>  > dog had the skin of Fred's neck in its jaws, and Fred was hissing. The other
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Oh, this sounds much too close to my recent experience with Smudge and the
> two pit bulls! Poor Fred, he wasn't as lucky as Smudge. :(

I suppose your friend knows what happened to Smudge? Did that not sway
her in any way?

Signature

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marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi
Stories and pics at http://koti.welho.com/mkurten/
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 04:13 GMT
> I suppose your friend knows what happened to Smudge? Did that not sway
> her in any way?

She does. And I think it's swayed her some, but not enough.

Joyce
Jane - 16 Feb 2006 14:26 GMT
> > There were 2 dogs in our front yard. A pig-dog, and a brown dog. The pig
> > dog had the skin of Fred's neck in its jaws, and Fred was hissing. The other
> > dog was biting at the bottom part of Fred.  Fred was stretched sideways
> > between the dogs. It was very noisy and frightening....

Oh darn!  how am I supposed to go to the morning meeting with a teary
face now?  It's all your fault.  Poor poor Fred.  At least he's playing
by the Rainbow Bridge now, out of pain and no longer old and achy.
Poor Fred.

Jane
- owned and operated by Rita
Takayuki - 14 Feb 2006 03:46 GMT
>Unfortunately its a true story, and I therefore don't recommend reading it
>if you can't stomach violence. You have been warned.

Thank you for the warning.  I thought I could stomach violence because
I watched "Freddy vs Jason", but this was too much for me.

But this is the reality, and if I were ever in a position to allow a
cat to come to harm like that, I hope that I'll remember this story
and not let it happen.
wafflycat - 13 Feb 2006 11:49 GMT
> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?
>
> Thanks,
> Joyce

You are not being unreasonable. She is. She is being selfish, thoughtless,
stupid, moronic, dim, pathetic and in reality, I doubt she *really* cares
for her dog. If she really cares for her dog, she would not continue
allowing it to act in such a way that it may one day end up being impounded
and euthanised after being caught in the act of killing another creature.
The more her dog is allowed to continue this way, the more it will realise
that its owner sees this as acceptable, so it is entirely possible that the
dog's killing sprees could escalate. How will your friend feel if her dog
ends up attacking another dog: and possibly ending up as the dead victim in
such an instance. How will she feel if her dog is killed by a motor vehicle?

Dogs are perfectly able to be controlled if they have owners with more than
half a brain willing to put in the time & effort of training. This benefits
the dog and the owner, as the dog & owner develop a very close bond. How
would your friend feel if it was one of your cats her dog killed? Over here
in the UK, if a dog kills in the way you describe, the owner would be held
liable for damages as in law, dogs are rightly seen as controllable by their
owners. If a dog is run over by a motor vehicle, again, the dog owner is
liable for any damage to the vehicle etc., not the other way around. Your
friend is being incredibly stupid. If she can't be bothered to have her dog
on a leash, she really shouldn't have a dog. Stupid, stupid, stupid woman
that she is. Mind you, the stupidity of some dog owners never fails to
astound me. We've been having some TV progammes over here about owners with
'uncontrollable' dogs. In every case it's the stupid owner's fault. Once the
owner is trained by someone who understands dogs being a pack animal and
gets the owner to make sure the dog understands its correct place in what it
perceives to be its pack (dog + owner + any family): the bottom, and the
humans are placed above the dog in the 'pack', then a well-trained dog
results. It's the reason I don't have a dog, I'd make a not very good dog
owner, as I don't have the time to put in on training that would be needed,
as well as look after husband, son, cats & household!

If she were my friend, the friendship would be over.

Cheers, helen s
MaryL - 13 Feb 2006 13:27 GMT
> This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this
> is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and
> her irresponsibility with her dog.
>
> Thanks,
> Joyce

It's obvious that your friend has absolutely no sense of responsibility.
So, you might inform her (correctly) that she can be held personally liable
if he kills someone's pet and that person decides to sue.  In some
jurisdictions, the dog can be labeled a "risk" because of his past pattern
of killing cats and could be euthanized under court order.  Finally, she
could face criminal charges if anything were to happen to a person who tried
to intervene to save a pet, especially since your friend has full knowledge
that her dog has a history of killing cats.  If he ever attacks a person --  
which can happen even with friendly dogs when they are in the act of
attacking a smaller animal -- then your friend could face *serious* jail
time.

I know, I'm deliberately making this sound as bad as possible, and she would
not face the most serious consequences in most jurisdictions.  However, all
of this can and *has* happened in some areas.  If she is not willing to do
anything for the sake of her dog, perhaps she will do something to protect
herself.

MaryL
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 21:44 GMT
> It's obvious that your friend has absolutely no sense of responsibility.
> So, you might inform her (correctly) that she can be held personally liable
> if he kills someone's pet and that person decides to sue.  In some
> jurisdictions, the dog can be labeled a "risk" because of his past pattern
> of killing cats and could be euthanized under court order.  

Thank you for this perspective. I hadn't thought of this, and considering
this dog's pattern, it's only a matter of time before something else
happens. So far, she's gotten away with the killings because they happened
late at night, so nobody except her saw them happen. Neither of the cats
had collars, so she didn't know who they belonged to. (If it had been my
dog, I would have put up signs, trying to find the owners. It's only right -
the poor people must have been heartbroken not to know what had happened
to their cats. Although her neighborhood is full of ferals, so they might
not have had homes.)

This friend is in serious denial about what could happen. Even after
having the truth right in her face any number of times (not just the
killings, but the many times he's gotten into tussles with cats and got
himself scratched up, as well as the time he was hit by a car running
after a cat), she refuses to see it, and uses lame excuses ("But it's
right in front of my house," as if that's some kind of safety bubble)
to justify her bad judgement.

I will collect these posts and email them to her. I think she needs
more pressure than I have been able to put on her up to now.

Thanks,
Joyce
P C - 13 Feb 2006 18:19 GMT
On
Date: Mon, Feb 13, 2006, 8:10am (EST+5) From: jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net
>This post contains some parts that are sad to >read, but mostly this is
about an ongoing issue >(ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and her
>irresponsibility with her dog.

I'd be willing to write her and tell here about Notter, my cat that was
attcked in his own yard by loose dogs after hurricane Charley or Sammy
my elderly neighbors cat that was more recently killed by 2 roaming dogs
or how Bo my mother's cat spent over 12 hours in the tippy top of a tree
where he'd been chased on the same night by those same dogs that killed
Sammy, while my mother mourned him thinking he was dead.   p
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 21:35 GMT
> I'd be willing to write her and tell here about Notter, my cat that was
> attcked in his own yard by loose dogs after hurricane Charley or Sammy
> my elderly neighbors cat that was more recently killed by 2 roaming dogs

Well, this friend knows all about how Smudge was attacked and nearly
killed by two loose dogs just a few months ago. But more importantly, she
*witnessed* the two cat killings that he has already done. She was very
upset by it, but apparently, not upset enough to make sure he's kept
under strict control at all times. She doesn't want to keep him from
having the chance to "go out and sniff the night air, have a pee, and
stretch his legs", other than his daily walk, that is. Why can't she just
take him out for 5 or 10 minutes, *on a leash*, a few times an evening
(in addition to his longer daily walk), if that's what he needs??)

<GRRRR>

Joyce
jmcquown - 14 Feb 2006 01:10 GMT
>  > I'd be willing to write her and tell here about Notter, my cat
>  that was > attcked in his own yard by loose dogs after hurricane
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Joyce

Is there someplace she can rig up a long lead with a clip on the end and
just keep the clip by the door?  Then she just clips the lead onto the
collar and the dog can roam as far as it wants (if she joins several
together) without going out of the yard.  They also sell these heavy-duty
leads that are attached to a long metal spiral hook you screw into the
ground with a lead & clip attached for this purpose.  Then the dog can "go
out and sniff the night air, have a pee, and stretch his legs" and she
doesn't have to step beyond the doorway to let the dog out and back in.

Jill
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 02:54 GMT
> Is there someplace she can rig up a long lead with a clip on the end and
> just keep the clip by the door?

I've been thinking of suggesting just that. Then he can hang out with
her while she's doing whatever it is she's doing in her yard, or car, or
storage area, etc. If he's on a leash, then she wouldn't need to pay
strict attention to him. And it wouldn't be such a big hassle for her
to get him on the leash every time she goes out. This is not unlike the
set-up I used to have for Smudge when I used to keep her on a leash in
front of my building.

Joyce
Stormin Mormon - 14 Feb 2006 14:37 GMT
In hooman terms, she's an accessory to the crime. A material witness who has
not yet come forward to testify. Complicit conspirator.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

But more importantly, she
*witnessed* the two cat killings that he has already done. She was very
upset by it, but apparently, not upset enough to make sure he's kept
under strict control at all times. She doesn't want to keep him from
having the chance to "go out and sniff the night air, have a pee, and
stretch his legs", other than his daily walk, that is. Why can't she just
take him out for 5 or 10 minutes, *on a leash*, a few times an evening
(in addition to his longer daily walk), if that's what he needs??)

<GRRRR>

Joyce
NMR - 13 Feb 2006 20:40 GMT
Joyce

   This is a dilemma between you and your friend it sucks big time.
Personally  how would you feel if it was your cat that it happen to.  What
if it is not a cat next time but a small child.  Your friend is
irresponsible and should be turned in.

    The quote " he's just being a dog. He's not vicious -he's a wonderfully
socialized animal who is mostly well-trained and obedient."  That is not
true I know plenty of dogs that could care less about cats the dog is far
from well trained or obedient.
   Your friend needs a slap of reality big time. the comment "She feels
that if people let their cats out, then they're irresponsible, too"  well
that would have ended my friendship right there what if the cat got out by
accident.  IMO your friend is being selfish and stubborn if she believes
that.  That way of thinking is going to come back and bite her in the a.s 
big time

 I just had an recent encounter where a unleashed dog charged my family in
a park.  It went ok for the dog instead of my shooting it I carry at all
times I have a CWL.  Luckily  I ended up macing the dog. I always have
carried some since I started doing rescue work with the shelter; too many
dog bites or idiot animal abusers.
   Before anyone jumps my a.s that may sound bad  but if it was a choice
between the dog and my family the dog would die if I had no choice or other
option.

The dog got seized by animals control ( was released the owner ticketed)
but the owner comments was I always have him under control he never does
this.  As someone who has worked with animal control I have heard that so
many times that I want to drag the person to the child that got maimed and
show them the damage their dogs did.
 That is why there is a leash law almost everywhere in the US.  Orlando,
Florida just made a law that all dogs have to be on a leash or chained
during the daylight hours while they are in their own yards even if there is
a proper fence.
NMR - 13 Feb 2006 22:15 GMT
> Joyce

Joyce here is something to email her  every where in the USA  if a dog that
is off their property and or required to be on a leash injuries, damages,
destroys property(s) or person(s).  the owner is under full civil liability
and is likely criminal at fault automatically.  Watch judge Judy and the
people court any dog owner that the dog is described as above losses always
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 23:04 GMT
> Joyce here is something to email her  every where in the USA  if a dog that
> is off their property and or required to be on a leash injuries, damages,
> destroys property(s) or person(s).  the owner is under full civil liability
> and is likely criminal at fault automatically.  Watch judge Judy and the
> people court any dog owner that the dog is described as above losses always

Also on Animal Precinct, Animal Cops, etc. (On Animal Planet.) Yep, I
agree with this.

Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 15 Feb 2006 22:05 GMT
> Orlando, Florida just made a law that all dogs have to be on a leash
> or chained during the daylight hours while they are in their own yards
> even if there is a proper fence.

I am so glad that around here, the rule is "leash OR voice control."
That is to say, there may be leash laws in neighborhoods, but you can
take your dog hiking without leash, and there are dog parks where
unleashed dogs are expected.  And certainly a dog within a fence
doesn't need to be leashed.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to own a dog that must be tied
down at all times.  If I lived in Orlando and wanted a dog, I'd move.

That being said, I've never met a vicious dog here, and the dogs I've
met on the trail have all been very well behaved.  They'd have to be;
trails often go past prarie dogs, cattle, and horses, or you have to
pass by riders on horseback.

All of that being said, I also can't imagine keeping a dog offleash on
neighborhood walks when the dog has already killed and injured several
cats, and been injured himself while offleash.  If putting the leash
on the dog for a short walk seems like "too much trouble," I wonder if
the dog is so poorly behaved it won't even sit still for the leash to
be attached.  That doesn't sound like a well-trained dog to me.

Sounds to me like the woman has blinders on.  I don't think anyone is
going to be able to convince her to change her ways.  She may be a
great person in other respects, but she has a blind spot here that has
already hurt and killed several cats, not to mention sending her dog
to the vet.

Signature

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pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Chakolate - 13 Feb 2006 21:21 GMT
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net wrote in news:43f03f0b$0$58075
$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this
> is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and
> her irresponsibility with her dog.

I'm assuming here that your friend has good qualities in other areas or
she wouldn't be your friend.  Now you must decide just how much you want
to keep her as your friend.  

Reporting her to animal control will either do nothing or quite likely
result in the euthanizing of the dog.  (It's a damn shame that the owners
aren't the ones to be put down.)  I don't say don't do it, I just say it
might not do any good.

I think I would not only call animal control, I would also tell her that
as a cat owner (as if anybody ever owned a cat) I could not in good
conscience continue to be her friend.  She is letting a known cat-killer
run loose, and she is endangering your cat.  After all, you can't be sure
that your cat won't get out by accident just when her dog is out running
the streets.  

I feel very sorry for the dog.  He deserves better.  

Chak

Signature

In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it
would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples
might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal
time in physics classrooms.
 --Stephen Jay Gould

Stormin Mormon - 14 Feb 2006 14:37 GMT
Wonder if the dog is any relation to the shooters at Columbine school? Might
be the dog is poorly parented even as those kids were poorly parented.

Wonder if the dog is on ritalin?

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net wrote in news:43f03f0b$0$58075
$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this
> is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and
> her irresponsibility with her dog.

I'm assuming here that your friend has good qualities in other areas or
she wouldn't be your friend.  Now you must decide just how much you want
to keep her as your friend.

Reporting her to animal control will either do nothing or quite likely
result in the euthanizing of the dog.  (It's a damn shame that the owners
aren't the ones to be put down.)  I don't say don't do it, I just say it
might not do any good.

I think I would not only call animal control, I would also tell her that
as a cat owner (as if anybody ever owned a cat) I could not in good
conscience continue to be her friend.  She is letting a known cat-killer
run loose, and she is endangering your cat.  After all, you can't be sure
that your cat won't get out by accident just when her dog is out running
the streets.

I feel very sorry for the dog.  He deserves better.

Chak

Signature

In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it
would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples
might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal
time in physics classrooms.
 --Stephen Jay Gould

Annie Wxill - 13 Feb 2006 22:57 GMT
...>
> I don't know what do to at this point. I've given her all the arguments
> I can think of, and she's unwilling to change her mind. She feels that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>...>
> Joyce

Does your community have a leash law?  Does it apply to cats as well as
dogs?

If the answers are yes and no, your friend is breaking the law, and the cat
owners are not.
Perhaps your friend should be made aware of any penalties involved.

If your friend's dog is killing and injuring cats that are on their owner's
property, or, at least not on her property, there  probably is a law and
penalty against that, too.  She may also be liable for vet bills for the
injured cats and maybe more, should the owner choose to take her to court.
Perhaps your friend should also be made aware of legal consequences.

If your friend walks her dog on a regular basis, eventually someone will
recognize the dog and her and make the connection between the loose dog and
the maiming and killing of cats in the neighborhood.  Someone will call the
police, and she may have to go to court and lose ownership of her dog or
have it sentenced to death as the worse outcome, or will be required to keep
it on a leash and muzzled as the best outcome.  Talk about hassles.

Annie
Enfilade - 13 Feb 2006 23:12 GMT
> Does your community have a leash law?  Does it apply to cats as well as
> dogs?

If she wants to risk her own dog's life by letting it run around off
leash, that is her business...but since the dog has been proven to kill
cats before, then it is now HER RESPONSIBILITY to make sure this dog is
no longer in a position to attack cats (or children).

If your area has a leash law, then she is doing something illegal by
letting her dog loose that way.

What she is doing is reckless endangerment, of the neighbourhood cats
and neighbourhood people.

I do not know what you could do to "make" her change at this point,
save calling the police every time you see her dog off leash to make a
complaint and organizing others to do the same.  Or putting around
flyers in the neighborhood warning cat owners to keep their pets
indoors.

--Fil
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 13 Feb 2006 23:47 GMT
> If your area has a leash law, then she is doing something illegal by
> letting her dog loose that way.

There are definitely leash laws in my area.

> I do not know what you could do to "make" her change at this point,
> save calling the police every time you see her dog off leash to make a
> complaint and organizing others to do the same.  Or putting around
> flyers in the neighborhood warning cat owners to keep their pets
> indoors.

Unfortunately, she lives in a neighborhood where there are lots of
other irresponsible pet owners, as well as many stray dogs and cats,
and a big feral cat population. It's not the kind of area where people
are going to call the police because there's a loose dog. I could put
up flyers, but I'm not so sure people would care. They let their cats
out anyway, even though there are plenty of dogs wandering around. In
fact, despite all I've said about her, my friend is more responsible
than many people in her neighborhood, regarding pets. But I don't know
them, and I do know her, so I'm focusing my energy where I might be
able to do some good.

It's also not an area where the police will bother responding in a
timely manner, even for violent crimes, much less to deal with a loose
dog. It's a poor minority neighborhood, people are living in survival
mode, and I don't think you could count on the police to do anything
about it, considering they can barely deal with the violent crime
perpetrated by humans against each other. I don't mean to imply that
animals count less than people, but to the police, I think they do,
so if they can't even address human-on-human crime adequately, they're
not going to bother with irresponsible pet owners. Given the environment,
I don't think that involving officials will be much help, unfortunately.

Thanks,
Joyce
Enfilade - 14 Feb 2006 15:09 GMT
> It's also not an area where the police will bother responding in a
> timely manner, even for violent crimes, much less to deal with a loose
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> not going to bother with irresponsible pet owners. Given the environment,
> I don't think that involving officials will be much help, unfortunately.

Boy do I know what that's like.  If you call about noise or drug users,
they ask if your life is in danger and if it's not, they'll get back to
you in a few days.

That being the case, maybe you can't really "Do" anything but ask
yourself how much you can deal with being in the company of a person
who apparently does not care about the welfare of cats.  I know I have
had to make some unpleasant ethical choices to stay in contact with
certain members of my family, so, it's not as easy as "dump her," but
you might have to minimize contact or avoid her when her dog is running
about loose.

--Fil
Stormin Mormon - 14 Feb 2006 17:54 GMT
Reminds me of the guy who called to report a burglar in the yard. The cops
said they couldn't be there for an hour. He rung off, and called back about
two minutes later, and said he'd just gone out with his gun, and shot the
burglar dead, and the guy was laying in the yard.

About a minute later, the yard is swarming with cop cars, and they catch the
burglar.

One of the cops asks the guy "Didn't you say you had a gun and just killed
him" and the guy replys "didn't you say you couldn't get here for an hour?"

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

Boy do I know what that's like.  If you call about noise or drug users,
they ask if your life is in danger and if it's not, they'll get back to
you in a few days.

That being the case, maybe you can't really "Do" anything but ask
yourself how much you can deal with being in the company of a person
who apparently does not care about the welfare of cats.  I know I have
had to make some unpleasant ethical choices to stay in contact with
certain members of my family, so, it's not as easy as "dump her," but
you might have to minimize contact or avoid her when her dog is running
about loose.

--Fil
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 22:18 GMT
> Reminds me of the guy who called to report a burglar in the yard. The cops
> said they couldn't be there for an hour. He rung off, and called back about
> two minutes later, and said he'd just gone out with his gun, and shot the
> burglar dead, and the guy was laying in the yard.

> About a minute later, the yard is swarming with cop cars, and they catch the
> burglar.

> One of the cops asks the guy "Didn't you say you had a gun and just killed
> him" and the guy replys "didn't you say you couldn't get here for an hour?"

LOL!!!! Exactly.

Joyce
Christina Websell - 14 Feb 2006 02:14 GMT
> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?

My opinion is that she is being irresponsible with her dog.  She needs to
control it far more closely.  It is not acceptable to let your dog wander
out of your immediate control and let it kill cats.
However, if she takes no notice of your advice, this is a difficult one for
your friendship.  It depends on how much you value her.
I might say "if you do not make a real effort to stop your dog killing pet
cats I'm not sure if I can continue to be your friend."

Tweed
polonca12000 - 14 Feb 2006 19:13 GMT
> This post contains some parts that are sad to read, but mostly this
> is about an ongoing issue (ie, disagreement) I have with a friend and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> treatment.) But sometimes it goes badly for the cat. About a year ago,
> he killed one, right in front of my friend.
<snip>
> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?
>
> Thanks,
> Joyce

What if some animal kills her dog just like the dog killed the cat and
she didn't really care? And what if the dog is run over by a car like it
almost happened? How can she say noone was harmed by the dog being loose
when a cat has already been killed by the dog? And what if an owner of a
cat that the dog is attacking intervenes and gets bitten by the dog?
Authorities would certainly take it seriously and she could lose the dog
or worse.
There are a lot of cats who are indoor-outdoor and there are feral cats.
It gives no right to the dog to kill them just because they are not
inside at all times. Your friend isn't prepared to limit her dog's
freedom but at the same time says cats need to be confined at all times?
I do hope the posts we wrote would convince your friend to stop acting
irresponsibly the way she is now.
Polonca and Soncek
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 14 Feb 2006 22:21 GMT
> There are a lot of cats who are indoor-outdoor and there are feral cats.
> It gives no right to the dog to kill them just because they are not
> inside at all times. Your friend isn't prepared to limit her dog's
> freedom but at the same time says cats need to be confined at all times?

I think it's just like saying, to a woman who has just been attacked,
"Well, what were you doing out in that neighborhood at that hour?"

> I do hope the posts we wrote would convince your friend to stop acting
> irresponsibly the way she is now.

Yes, I really appreciate everyone's contributions.

Thanks,
Joyce
sriddles@aol.com - 16 Feb 2006 15:23 GMT
> Any opinions, suggestions, etc? Am I being unreasonable? Or is she?
>
> Thanks,
> Joyce

You might tell her what happened to me, it's the ultimate defense for
keeping a dog on a leash. My Happy saw a stray dog running, somehow
jerked backwards out of his collar and took off chasing it. He ran in
front of a car and was killed right in front of me.
You just don't know what a chaser is going to do; they don't think
about anything but what they're chasing. If that doesn't make her
think, I imagine nothing would.

Sherry
Gabey8 - 17 Feb 2006 07:57 GMT
Maybe you can find out the laws in your area regarding dogs that have
killed other people's pets.

I know from having watched Animal Planet's program about animal control
officers based in San Francisco, that they have a court hearing for
possible "vicious and dangerous" dogs. Not only can the dog's owner be
punished with fines, at the least, but one possible result of the hearing
is that the dog can be taken from the owner and put down. :o(

She shouldn't be quick to judge people whose cats are out as
"irresponsible". What if the cat accidentally got outside somehow?

Anyway, I don't know what the laws are in your locality, but chances are
that there are SERIOUS legal repercussions for owning a pet that has
killed or mauled other people's pets.

If she doesn't want to find out the hard way, by having a bereaved cat
owner taking legal action against her and her off-leash dog, she should
keep the dog ON THE LEASH at all times.

Donna
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 17 Feb 2006 08:33 GMT
> I know from having watched Animal Planet's program about animal control
> officers based in San Francisco, that they have a court hearing for
> possible "vicious and dangerous" dogs. Not only can the dog's owner be
> punished with fines, at the least, but one possible result of the hearing
> is that the dog can be taken from the owner and put down. :o(

Yes, I saw that episode too. (About the two pit bulls who attacked a
neighbor's small dog, right? One of the dogs did get put down, but their
people got the other dog back, I think.)

We live across the bay in Oakland, so the laws might be different from
in SF, but probably not *that* different.

Thanks for your input. This is a helpful perspective.

Joyce
Karen - 17 Feb 2006 15:03 GMT
>  > I know from having watched Animal Planet's program about animal control
>  > officers based in San Francisco, that they have a court hearing for
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Joyce

You might tell her too that more and more people use DNA evidence to
pinpoint what killed their cat. I just listend to an Animal forensics
scientist on NPR the other day and while they help with crimes the majority
of what comes in, besides bloodline proof, is owners of killed cats looking
for proof. They mentioned one in which a dog was under suspicion but it
turned out to be bobcat DNA.

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