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Can a tomcat be "re-neutered"?

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Pat - 31 Jan 2006 03:30 GMT
Among horsepeople it is known that sometimes the vet does not "get
everything" when a colt is gelded, and you end up with a gelding that
behaves more like a stud. I don't know if this is a remediable situation in
a horse or if the same thing can happen with a male cat, but I was thinking
it could be the cause of Eli's extremely aggressive behaviour.

Aside from attacking the other cats constantly, he sprays - even in the
house at times. There has to be a cure.... Is it possible the vet left part
of his testes, and if so, is it possible to have the situation corrected by
more surgery?
sriddles@aol.com - 31 Jan 2006 03:44 GMT
> Among horsepeople it is known that sometimes the vet does not "get
> everything" when a colt is gelded, and you end up with a gelding that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of his testes, and if so, is it possible to have the situation corrected by
> more surgery?

Gosh, Pat, I've never heard of that. If both testicles are gone, then
what else is there to "get"?
The spraying part isn't that unusual. WAs he an adult when he was
neutered? Sometimes they just keep spraying, particularly if they're
older when they're castrated.
But it wouldn't hurt to ask. Do you have a pretty good vet you can call
and ask?

Sherry
Pat - 31 Jan 2006 04:01 GMT
> Gosh, Pat, I've never heard of that. If both testicles are gone, then
> what else is there to "get"?

I can't imagine....

> The spraying part isn't that unusual. WAs he an adult when he was
> neutered? Sometimes they just keep spraying, particularly if they're
> older when they're castrated.

No, he was about 6-7 months old at the time. I took him and Tommy in
together.

> But it wouldn't hurt to ask. Do you have a pretty good vet you can call
> and ask?

I think I'd be embarrassed to ask a vet!
Monique Y. Mudama - 31 Jan 2006 16:37 GMT
>> But it wouldn't hurt to ask. Do you have a pretty good vet you can
>> call and ask?
>
> I think I'd be embarrassed to ask a vet!

Er, why?

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Pat - 01 Feb 2006 01:02 GMT
>> I think I'd be embarrassed to ask a vet!
>
> Er, why?

Well it's probably something the vet knows for sure and if I asked he would
know that I don't know for sure, and then maybe even if it was not possible
he might say it is possible because he might be thinking I would pay big
bucks for a useless surgery, and I wouldn't know what was really going on.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 01 Feb 2006 07:03 GMT
>>>I think I'd be embarrassed to ask a vet!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> he might say it is possible because he might be thinking I would pay big
> bucks for a useless surgery, and I wouldn't know what was really going on.

If you have no more confidence that that in your vet, I'd
suggest changing vets!
blkcatgal - 31 Jan 2006 04:29 GMT
You could have his testosterone level checked.  My cat was like
this...agressive behavior and sprayed.  I consulted an animal behaviorist
that suggested, among other things, I have my cat's testosterone level
checked to see if he was properly neutered.  I did and he was.  But it's
worth a try.

S.
> Among horsepeople it is known that sometimes the vet does not "get
> everything" when a colt is gelded, and you end up with a gelding that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> part of his testes, and if so, is it possible to have the situation
> corrected by more surgery?
Pat - 01 Feb 2006 01:03 GMT
> You could have his testosterone level checked.  My cat was like
> this...agressive behavior and sprayed.  I consulted an animal behaviorist
> that suggested, among other things, I have my cat's testosterone level
> checked to see if he was properly neutered.  I did and he was.  But it's
> worth a try.

What would your options have been if he was not properly neutered, or had
too much testosterone for some other reason?
blkcatgal - 01 Feb 2006 04:42 GMT
If the testosterone level had been high, guess I would have asked my vet
what to do.  But fortunately, I didn't have to do that.

>> You could have his testosterone level checked.  My cat was like
>> this...agressive behavior and sprayed.  I consulted an animal behaviorist
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> What would your options have been if he was not properly neutered, or had
> too much testosterone for some other reason?
Tish - 31 Jan 2006 04:42 GMT
Spock sometimes behaves like this and it is usually a response to
stress - in his case visiting children or noisy dogs.  He is neutered
too (at 6 months old).

With cats, I don't think it's possible to be "half neutered" unless the
cat had an undecended testicle - which the vet should have checked for
during the proceedure (can the vet count to "2"? - LOL).  I've watched
vets neutering male cats a couple of times and, at the risk of grossing
people out, the vet makes a small incision in the scrotum and kind-of
pops the tescicles out and ties and cuts them at the "neck" near the
body.  That should ensure that the entire testicle is removed.

My father used to have an extremely aggressive cat, a desexed girlcat
called Diamond. Dad and his family (including a girl who was 5 years
old when Diamond arrived) lived with it for years until a knowedgeable
vet diagnosed an inborn, internal medical problem for poor Diamond.  I
can't remember the details of the problem, but the upshot was that
Diamond was in a lot of pain most of the time, which accounted for her
behaviour.  After the confirmation of the diagnosis and information
that it was incurable, Dad thought the best thing was to have Diamond
PTS and to end her life of painful misery in the most humane way
possible.

I doubt this is the problem with Eli - it sounds as though he really
needs to have some "me" time, but it might be worth checking with a vet
once your house-buying and moving are finished.

Tish
Pat - 31 Jan 2006 06:55 GMT
> Spock sometimes behaves like this and it is usually a response to
> stress - in his case visiting children or noisy dogs.  He is neutered
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> needs to have some "me" time, but it might be worth checking with a vet
> once your house-buying and moving are finished.

He gets his fair share of "me" time but too little of "get rid of everyone
else" time.
-L. - 31 Jan 2006 07:26 GMT
> Among horsepeople it is known that sometimes the vet does not "get
> everything" when a colt is gelded, and you end up with a gelding that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of his testes, and if so, is it possible to have the situation corrected by
> more surgery?

It's possible but not likely.  Testes in a cat are extremely easy to
remove.  It is more likely that he was neutered late and/or is in a
situation where intact males are constantly marking territory.

-L.
-L. - 31 Jan 2006 07:26 GMT
> Among horsepeople it is known that sometimes the vet does not "get
> everything" when a colt is gelded, and you end up with a gelding that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of his testes, and if so, is it possible to have the situation corrected by
> more surgery?

It's possible but not likely.  Testes in a cat are extremely easy to
remove.  It is more likely that he was neutered late and/or is in a
situation where intact males are constantly marking territory.

-L.
Pat - 31 Jan 2006 16:32 GMT
"-L." <gentleboa@peacemail.com>

> It is more likely that he was neutered late and/or is in a
> situation where intact males are constantly marking territory.

Is 6-7 months of age considered "late" for neutering a cat?

There was one (1) intact male cat around here briefly a few times last year
but he hasn't been seen since last summer. No others.
-L. - 31 Jan 2006 17:17 GMT
> Is 6-7 months of age considered "late" for neutering a cat?

Only if he was already sexually mature.  I advocate neutering before 6
months, preferrably at 4.

> There was one (1) intact male cat around here briefly a few times last year
> but he hasn't been seen since last summer. No others.

Hummm.  Are there any intact females?  He may also just be stressed by
the other cats.  Spraying and aggressiveness are both territorial
behaviors.

-L.
Pat - 01 Feb 2006 01:08 GMT
>> Is 6-7 months of age considered "late" for neutering a cat?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the other cats.  Spraying and aggressiveness are both territorial
> behaviors.

No intact females for miles around.

The other cats mostly leave him alone except for Beatrice who often chases
him around trying to get him to play with her. She's the baby of the bunch
(around 9-10 months).
Dan M - 31 Jan 2006 16:52 GMT
> Aside from attacking the other cats constantly, he sprays - even in the
> house at times. There has to be a cure.... Is it possible the vet left part
> of his testes, and if so, is it possible to have the situation corrected by
> more surgery?

Does he spend a fair amount of time indoors? More to the point, does he
drink water while indoors? If so, adding Rescue Remedy to his water source
might help a bit with his aggression.
Pat - 01 Feb 2006 01:11 GMT
> Does he spend a fair amount of time indoors? More to the point, does he
> drink water while indoors? If so, adding Rescue Remedy to his water source
> might help a bit with his aggression.

Yes, he drinks water indoors, but there is just one water dish for all seven
cats so they'd all be getting RR if I put it in the water. Could I just give
it to him by mouth instead? He's very cooperative with anything I need to do
with him.
Dan M - 01 Feb 2006 16:30 GMT
> Yes, he drinks water indoors, but there is just one water dish for all seven
> cats so they'd all be getting RR if I put it in the water. Could I just give
> it to him by mouth instead? He's very cooperative with anything I need to do
> with him.

You could actually just dose up the water and let everyone drink it. RR is
not a drug, and it's not harmful, so it wouldn't hurt the others to get it
as well. It will just help to reduce any tension they might be feeling. I
put it in all the water dishes at my place.

I know that you're dealing with a lot of expenses with the move and all,
and it's not particularly inexpensive, so if you want to e-mail me a
mailing address I'll be glad to have a bottle shipped to you.

Dan
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 31 Jan 2006 17:10 GMT
> Among horsepeople it is known that sometimes the vet does not "get
> everything" when a colt is gelded, and you end up with a gelding that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of his testes, and if so, is it possible to have the situation corrected by
> more surgery?

I think in all male mammals a condition involving
"undescended" testicles is possible.  I've heard of it in
dogs, so it's probably possible in cats, too (and humans,
although I think they take care of it more-or-less at birth,
in that case).  However, all cats - male or female, neutered
or not - will spray and exhibit aggressive behaviour if
there are territorial issues.  How many other cats do you
have, and how does Eli get along with them?
Pat - 31 Jan 2006 18:54 GMT
> there are territorial issues.  How many other cats do you have, and how
> does Eli get along with them?

Six other cats here, and he gets along fine with them MOST of the time -
sleeps in the pile on the bed, grooms them and lets them groom him, plays
with them, etc. But at least a few times a week he will pick a fight with
one of them. His favorite to pick on is Lily, then Baby Eyes (who he
otherwise seems to think is his mommy), then Abelard (who has learned to
stand his ground to some extent). Lily runs from him even if he's not in an
aggressive mode. Baby Eyes hisses at him if he looks cross at her and she
does fight back. Occasionally Tommy will get after him for picking on the
others. He runs away from Tommy (who I think he considers as his "big
brother").

I see him spraying outside all the time and occasionally inside as well. He
backs up to my leg when I'm sitting on the commode and sprays my jeans! Or
the cabinet in the bathroom. He does it where I can see him so I think it
might be a form of defiance.
Effexorjunkie - 31 Jan 2006 23:04 GMT
To me it sounds like he may be trying to challenge the Alpha male, who
in this case is unquestionably Tommy.  But he can't challenge Tommy, so
he challenges whoever he believes to be next in the heirarchy.  Sort of
like Richard III.  He has to get rid of the Duke of Clarence first.

>>there are territorial issues.  How many other cats do you have, and how
>>does Eli get along with them?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> the cabinet in the bathroom. He does it where I can see him so I think it
> might be a form of defiance.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 01 Feb 2006 07:01 GMT
>>there are territorial issues.  How many other cats do you have, and how
>>does Eli get along with them?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> the cabinet in the bathroom. He does it where I can see him so I think it
> might be a form of defiance.

Definitely sounds liker a territorial dispute - especially
if he's "marking" you as his property!
Effexorjunkie - 31 Jan 2006 23:00 GMT
My theory is that being a "male" is as much mental as it is hormonal.
If the cats testes have secreted enough testosterone to wire his brain
as "male," he's going to have a "male" brain.  I have four neutered
cats.  All were neutered about 8 months into their lives and all seem to
have very male identities.  Aggression, territoriality, facial
expressions, toughness, etc.

> Among horsepeople it is known that sometimes the vet does not "get
> everything" when a colt is gelded, and you end up with a gelding that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of his testes, and if so, is it possible to have the situation corrected by
> more surgery?
Chakolate - 01 Feb 2006 00:36 GMT
> Among horsepeople it is known that sometimes the vet does not "get
> everything" when a colt is gelded, and you end up with a gelding that
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> left part of his testes, and if so, is it possible to have the
> situation corrected by more surgery?

This may just be legend or myth, but I have heard of cats that had more
than two testicles - a third one that isn't descended, that the vet
misses.  You can have a blood test, you know, to check his testosterone
level.

Chak

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