Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / October 2004
A cat legend
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Singh - 26 Sep 2004 00:49 GMT Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some call the Mark of Mohammed, and was probably brought into Europe by merchants who traded with Arabs and the Arabic-speaking peoples of North Africa.
It is said that as the Prophet Mohammed was studying scripture, a kitten crawled into the sleeve of his robe. In peace with the Prophet and the quiet atmosphere of spiritual study, the kitty curled up and slept in the sleeve; and Mohammed, very touched by this gesture, cut the sleeve from the robe rather than awaken the kitten. And then, as a sign of favor, the Prophet set his initial on the kitty's forehead for her and her descendants to carry forever.
I told my husband and he joked with me that it should have been the Arabic M-letter, but I figured that this legend came into Europe through Spain, via the Moors and traders who dealt with Muslim merchants.
Blessed be, Baha
jmcquown - 26 Sep 2004 01:32 GMT > Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Blessed be, > Baha What a lovely legend! Thank you for sharing this. Persia is not a tabby but when she gets concerned I can see an "m" shape between her eyes, like she is frowning.
Jill
HD - 29 Sep 2004 07:45 GMT >> Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above >> the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Jill The prophet Mohammed also was supposed to have endowed the cat with the ability to always land on it's feet.
Singer709 - 29 Sep 2004 09:18 GMT > > Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above > > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Jill Interesting legend, one I've heard before but not the "M" part. But isn't Mohammed going to spell his name in Arabic rather than Roman letters?
Tish Silberbauer - 29 Sep 2004 09:25 GMT A lovely legend. I grew up on a farm in the country and our neighbours were a family with the surname of Morris. There were three Morris kids and the youngest told all the kids in the community that the M above tabbys' eyes was "M for Morris". Naturally, they had a barn full of tabby cats (I think they only had three or four cats, but it seemed like a lot more at the time). tee hee
Tish
>> > Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above >> > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> > Blessed be, >> > Baha Singh - 07 Oct 2004 02:59 GMT My husband made the argument over the Arabic M-letter. I told him I figured that the legend arose from an earlier story of Mohammed cutting off his sleeve so as not to disturb the kitten, and had the "Mark of Mohammed" part added by European traders.
Blessed be,
Baha
> > > Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above > > > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > isn't Mohammed going to spell his name in Arabic rather than Roman > letters? CatNipped - 26 Sep 2004 02:32 GMT I heard a different version of the legend about the "M". I heard that the baby Jesus was fussy one cold night in the stable where He was born, and would not go to sleep no matter how much the Virgin Mary rocked him. A lamb came to lay beside him to try to warm and comfort Him, but it didn't help, the baby Jesus still cried. A donkey came, chicks came, and a camel came, all the animals in the stable came to His crib to try and soothe Him, but none of the animals were able to make him sleep. Then a tabby kitten crawled up beside Him and started to purr. Within just a few minutes the baby Jesus calmed down and drifted off to sleep. In gratitude the Virgin Mary placed her hand on the kitten's head to give it her blessing. And tabby kittens, to this day, have the "M", the mark of Mary, on their foreheads.
Hugs,
CatNipped
> Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Blessed be, > Baha Steve Touchstone - 26 Sep 2004 03:11 GMT >I heard a different version of the legend about the "M". I heard that the >baby Jesus was fussy one cold night in the stable where He was born, and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >tabby kittens, to this day, have the "M", the mark of Mary, on their >foreheads. hmmm, hadn't heard that one before, though I have heard the Mohammed story.
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Jo Firey - 26 Sep 2004 04:06 GMT >>I heard a different version of the legend about the "M". I heard that the >>baby Jesus was fussy one cold night in the stable where He was born, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hmmm, hadn't heard that one before, though I have heard the Mohammed > story. That one is new to me as well. But I like them both.
Jo
Singh - 27 Sep 2004 02:04 GMT Now that's really beautiful! Where did you learn this story? I've never heard it. But I like it. Who among us has not fallen asleep to the purring of a cat; and what mother would not br grateful for a kitty calming down a colicky baby!
Blessed be! Baha
> I heard a different version of the legend about the "M". I heard that the > baby Jesus was fussy one cold night in the stable where He was born, and [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Blessed be, > > Baha CatNipped - 27 Sep 2004 01:51 GMT > Now that's really beautiful! Where did you learn this story? I've never heard > it. But I like it. Who among us has not fallen asleep to the purring of a cat; > and what mother would not br grateful for a kitty calming down a colicky baby! > > Blessed be! > Baha I heard it ages ago - I don't remember when or from whom, but it has stuck with me because I've always had a tabby cat and every time I see the "M" on the forehead I think of the story.
Hugs,
CatNipped
Singer709 - 29 Sep 2004 09:22 GMT > I heard a different version of the legend about the "M". I heard that the > baby Jesus was fussy one cold night in the stable where He was born, and [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Blessed be, > > Baha Again, "Mary" mother of Jesus would actually be named "Mara" (an English equivalent of the Hebrew name.) And there is no "M" in Hebrew. "Mary" is a Europeanized name.
For example, "Jesus" is actually "Yeshua", so Jesus' name would actually be "Yeshua bar Yussif ben Dahveed" (Jesus son of Joseph from the house of David).
John F. Eldredge - 26 Sep 2004 03:03 GMT >Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark >above the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Blessed be, >Baha In ancient China, the most common term for male homosexuality was "the love of the cut sleeve", going back to an incident where the last Han emperor, Han Ai Ti, cut off his sleeve rather than awake his boy (or, in some versions, eunuch) lover. Han Ai Ti ruled from 6 BC to 1 AD, several centuries before Mohammed, so this cat legend is probably a bowdlerized version of the Chinese account. See http://www.arapacana.com/Glossary/H.htm, and search for the phrase "love of the cut sleeve".
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Singh - 27 Sep 2004 02:06 GMT I'll have to check that one out. Many thanks!
Blessed be, Baha
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better > than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria Takayuki - 26 Sep 2004 18:15 GMT >It is said that as the Prophet Mohammed was studying scripture, a kitten >crawled into the sleeve of his robe. In peace with the Prophet and the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >favor, the Prophet set his initial on the kitty's forehead for her and >her descendants to carry forever. I'm also often very touched by kitties, so maybe in the future, we'll see lots of cats with the letter "T" on their foreheads. ;)
This reminds me how once I was telling a friend how it's interesting that you never see any sculptures or paintings of Mohammed, and how that makes his legends somewhat more difficult to visualize. I thought it would be a great idea if someone could start a business specializing in likenesses of Mohammed, but he thought that was a dumb idea.
Seanette Blaylock - 26 Sep 2004 19:54 GMT Takayuki <Takayuki9z@yahoo.com> had some very interesting things to say about Re: A cat legend:
>This reminds me how once I was telling a friend how it's interesting >that you never see any sculptures or paintings of Mohammed, and how >that makes his legends somewhat more difficult to visualize. I >thought it would be a great idea if someone could start a business >specializing in likenesses of Mohammed, but he thought that was a dumb >idea. I may be wrong, not being an expert on Islam, but ISTR that images of actual people are highly frowned on in that religion.
 Signature "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.
:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL Singh - 27 Sep 2004 02:14 GMT > Takayuki <Takayuki9z@yahoo.com> had some very interesting things to > say about Re: A cat legend: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I may be wrong, not being an expert on Islam, but ISTR that images of > actual people are highly frowned on in that religion. Not so much the representing of people. Having pictures of your loved ones in your wallet or on your dresser is one thing. What's forbidden is representing holy men or angels for icons or idols to worship, or trying to make an image of God--Streng Verboten in the Quran as much as in the Bible.
I'm afraid that we Westerners have become jaded in one such area: we have become conditioned to believe that God sounds like Charlton Heston.
Blessed be, Baha
> -- > "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be > doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. > :-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL William Hamblen - 26 Sep 2004 04:47 GMT >I'm afraid that we Westerners have become jaded in one such area: we have >become conditioned to believe that God sounds like Charlton Heston. Everybody knows that Moses sounded like Charlton Heston.
Howard Berkowitz - 01 Oct 2004 21:36 GMT > >I'm afraid that we Westerners have become jaded in one such area: we have > >become conditioned to believe that God sounds like Charlton Heston. > > Everybody knows that Moses sounded like Charlton Heston. No, no, no! Mel Brooks. "I bring you 15...ooops...crash...Ten Commandments!"
CatNipped - 01 Oct 2004 21:50 GMT > No, no, no! Mel Brooks. "I bring you 15...ooops...crash...Ten > Commandments!" ROTFLMAO!!!! Yeah, that was hilarious (didn't you always wonder what the other 5 were?).
Oh, you say they were for cats??? Well, maybe something like this...
11. Thou shalt not hark up a hairball unless it be on thy slave's most expensive furniture. 12. Thou shalt not eat the food offered to thee, of which there be an abundance in thy slave's larder, but instread thou must demand the food that has not been purchased by thy slave. 13. Thou shalt always lay thy body across the scrolls that thy's slave is trying to read. 14. Thou shalt make sure that thy's slave is always provided with the sustenance of the hindquarters of the rodents that plague thy property, properly placed in thy slave's sandals. 15. Thou shalt not provide too much of the bedroll of which thy slave shares with thee lest thy slave become too lazy and must be beaten about the head and face with thy claws.
Hugs,
CatNipped
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 01 Oct 2004 23:53 GMT > Oh, you say they were for cats??? Well, maybe something like this...
> 11. Thou shalt not hark up a hairball unless it be on thy slave's most > expensive furniture.
> 12. Thou shalt not eat the food offered to thee, of which there be an > abundance in thy slave's larder, but instread thou must demand the food that > has not been purchased by thy slave.
> 13. Thou shalt always lay thy body across the scrolls that thy's slave is > trying to read.
> 14. Thou shalt make sure that thy's slave is always provided with the > sustenance of the hindquarters of the rodents that plague thy property, > properly placed in thy slave's sandals.
> 15. Thou shalt not provide too much of the bedroll of which thy slave > shares with thee lest thy slave become too lazy and must be beaten about the > head and face with thy claws. A keeper!!! :)
Joyce
Marina - 02 Oct 2004 04:40 GMT > Oh, you say they were for cats??? Well, maybe something like this... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > shares with thee lest thy slave become too lazy and must be beaten about the > head and face with thy claws. LOL! And all cats abide by them.
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Singh - 07 Oct 2004 02:59 GMT OY!!! I stand corrected!
Blessed be, Baha Too much a Mel Brooks fan for my own good
> > >I'm afraid that we Westerners have become jaded in one such area: we have > > >become conditioned to believe that God sounds like Charlton Heston. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No, no, no! Mel Brooks. "I bring you 15...ooops...crash...Ten > Commandments!" Howard Berkowitz - 07 Oct 2004 05:06 GMT > OY!!! I stand corrected! > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > No, no, no! Mel Brooks. "I bring you 15...ooops...crash...Ten > > Commandments!" I can't remember who it was doing the Moses role that said "Well, I have good news and bad news.
"The good news is that I got him down to ten.
"The bad news is that adultery is still in."
CatNipped - 27 Sep 2004 01:53 GMT > I'm afraid that we Westerners have become jaded in one such area: we have > become conditioned to believe that God sounds like Charlton Heston. > > Blessed be, > Baha ROTFLMAO! I love you Baha, your wit is unparalleled!!
Hugs,
CatNipped
SUQKRT - 27 Sep 2004 18:04 GMT >> I'm afraid that we Westerners have become jaded in one such area: we >have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >ROTFLMAO! I love you Baha, your wit is unparalleled!! He doesn't you mean Cecil B lied. Does he sound like Mel Gibson? Suz Macmoosette Thank Heavens There's Only One =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^=
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dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers - 27 Sep 2004 19:41 GMT >Does he sound like Mel Gibson? No, only Mel Gibson thinks god sounds like Mel Gibson ;-)
Cheers, helen s
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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 28 Sep 2004 08:43 GMT >>Does he sound like Mel Gibson?
> No, only Mel Gibson thinks god sounds like Mel Gibson ;-) LOL! :)
Joyce
Seanette Blaylock - 27 Sep 2004 02:24 GMT Singh <bahadur@localnet.com> had some very interesting things to say about Re: A cat legend:
>> >This reminds me how once I was telling a friend how it's interesting >> >that you never see any sculptures or paintings of Mohammed, and how [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >representing holy men or angels for icons or idols to worship, or trying to >make an image of God--Streng Verboten in the Quran as much as in the Bible. Ah, I understand the distinction. Thanks for clarifying that for me.
 Signature "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.
:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL Kreisleriana - 27 Sep 2004 14:21 GMT >> Takayuki <Takayuki9z@yahoo.com> had some very interesting things to >> say about Re: A cat legend: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I'm afraid that we Westerners have become jaded in one such area: we have >become conditioned to believe that God sounds like Charlton Heston. No, that's Moses. :P
God sounds like John Huston. ;)
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Victor Martinez - 29 Sep 2004 02:03 GMT > God sounds like John Huston. ;) And soon will sound like Ellen Degeneres!
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Singh - 29 Sep 2004 03:19 GMT Goddess bless us, everyone!!!
Baha
> > God sounds like John Huston. ;) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov > Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com Singh - 29 Sep 2004 03:19 GMT > >> Takayuki <Takayuki9z@yahoo.com> had some very interesting things to > >> say about Re: A cat legend: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > No, that's Moses. :P I thought Chuckles did a dual role! Maybe it's just that I haven't heard that distinctly Western voice from above? I should look maybe for John Wayne?
Boy, do I need sleep...
Blessed be! Baha
Jeanne Hedge - 29 Sep 2004 03:55 GMT >> >> Takayuki <Takayuki9z@yahoo.com> had some very interesting things to >> >> say about Re: A cat legend: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >I thought Chuckles did a dual role! Maybe it's just that I haven't heard that >distinctly Western voice from above? I should look maybe for John Wayne? No, he thought he was Ghengis Khan.
>Boy, do I need sleep... Don't we all
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Howard Berkowitz - 01 Oct 2004 21:50 GMT > >> >> Takayuki <Takayuki9z@yahoo.com> had some very interesting things to > >> >> say about Re: A cat legend:
> >> >I'm afraid that we Westerners have become jaded in one such area: we > >> >have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > No, he thought he was Ghengis Khan. Didn't Mel Brooks propose a film about Cenghiz Cohen, or was that Monty Python? :-)
Howard Berkowitz - 01 Oct 2004 21:35 GMT > I'm afraid that we Westerners have become jaded in one such area: we have > become conditioned to believe that God sounds like Charlton Heston. God runs the National Rifle Association?
Takayuki - 27 Sep 2004 05:58 GMT >Takayuki <Takayuki9z@yahoo.com> had some very interesting things to >say about Re: A cat legend: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I may be wrong, not being an expert on Islam, but ISTR that images of >actual people are highly frowned on in that religion. Oh, right. I should be careful not to get a fatwa declared against me or anything. :)
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 26 Sep 2004 22:42 GMT > This reminds me how once I was telling a friend how it's interesting > that you never see any sculptures or paintings of Mohammed, and how > that makes his legends somewhat more difficult to visualize. I > thought it would be a great idea if someone could start a business > specializing in likenesses of Mohammed, but he thought that was a dumb > idea. If Islam is like Judaism (from which it sprang), then they wouldn't allow images to be worshipped. There is a prohibition in Judaism against "idolatry" - the worship of statues, pictures, etc, representing a deity or other being. So, for example, you don't see images of Moses or Abraham or any other figure important in Judaism, when you're in a temple, or even in a Jewish home. Christianity broke from that tradition, of course, but I don't know enough about Islam to say whether that's true for that religion as well. Maybe someone here does know?
Joyce
Bridget - 27 Sep 2004 03:23 GMT > > This reminds me how once I was telling a friend how it's interesting > > that you never see any sculptures or paintings of Mohammed, and how [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Joyce I don't know about Islam, but I do know why Christianity broke from that tradition. I have learned all kinds of interesting things in joining the Eastern Orthodox Church. Early in Christianity, we knew what the major players looked like. We had painted pictures of the Apostles, and probably Jesus, although none survive to this day. People would put them up in the Churches. When saints were declared, so were pictures painted of them and also put up in homes and in Churches. And because of the beliefs of early Christians (and Orthodox Christians still) they believed that those who had reposed (no one dies in the Orthodox Church - you repose and go somewhere else - don't ask me too many questions on this as I don't have it down yet) still had the power to pray for those who are living. So they pray to them - as do the Catholics. They also venerate them - not worship them - it is an important distinction because you only worship God. But you hold in high esteem these Saints and Apostles and Martyrs. There was a special Ecumenical Council because some believed it was idolotry and others didn't and the outcome of the council (like back before 1000 AD) was that venerating a picture by kissing it and making the sign of a cross in front of it was showing great respect for the saint but it was not worshipping the way we would God. So it was okay and not idolatry.
And it became okay to make images of Jesus (even though we haven't a clue as to what he looked like) because mankind actually got to see Jesus. That wasn't true before Jesus. Before the Christians had Jesus we had burning bushes and large voices and symbols. So we weren't allowed to make an image for God - until He made one for Himself.
I hope all this makes sense
BRIDGET
Singh - 29 Sep 2004 03:32 GMT While I don't practice Crhistianinty any longer, I understand this. It does seem like having the icons is like having your Mom's picture in your wallet, to remind you of one who loves you. That may be a little simple--forgive me please, for while i was raised Catholic I am not familiar with Eastern Orthodox practices--but I hope it is an acceptible example.
We Sikhs tend to have pictures of our 10 Gurus in our homes, but like Muslims we are heavily forbidden to give the pictures veneration. They are there to remind us of the spiritual qualities of our first prophets, and for inspiration; but we do not make offerings of candles or incense, nor pray to them. Sikhism is a young faith, barely 500 years old, give or take a few. We know what our masters look like as many have commissioned portraits during their lifetimes. Having my picture of the last Guru, Gobind Singh, who lost all his family and lived alone and in hiding from those who wanted his head, inspires me to keep going and remember that nothing can hurt me, no matter what; one of the Tenth Master's promises was that he would inspire "the sparrow to hunt the hawk, and one man to fight a legion." My middle name, Bahadur, comes from Guru Gobind Singh's father Guru Tegh Bahadur, and means brave. The Ninth Master died fighting for the rights of the Hindus, a people not his own, to freely practice their religion. And the founder, Guru Nanak, was in my mind the world's first political feminist. I may not make offerings to their portraits, but I like to have them. They remind me to stand up for myself and others, be proud, and remember I'm a Singhni, a Lioness. We kick @$$!
Blessed be, Baha and please forgive my tangent!!!
> > > This reminds me how once I was telling a friend how it's interesting > > > that you never see any sculptures or paintings of Mohammed, and how [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > BRIDGET Steve Touchstone - 29 Sep 2004 19:14 GMT >While I don't practice Crhistianinty any longer, I understand this. It does >seem like having the icons is like having your Mom's picture in your wallet, to [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Baha >and please forgive my tangent!!! The post may be totally OT, but I for one enjoy learning about your faith. Of course, one of the things that make this group so good is that we can post totally OT without a flood of complaints.
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Howard Berkowitz - 01 Oct 2004 21:52 GMT > The post may be totally OT, but I for one enjoy learning about your > faith. Of course, one of the things that make this group so good is > that we can post totally OT without a flood of complaints. There is no topic onto which a cat will not climb while you are reading the off-topic post, making it, by definition, on topic. Mr. Clark is warming my trackball.
Christina Websell - 26 Sep 2004 23:46 GMT This was such a lovely story. Thank you.
Tweed
> Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Blessed be, > Baha Klinger - 27 Sep 2004 11:07 GMT > Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Arabic M-letter, but I figured that this legend came into Europe through > Spain, via the Moors and traders who dealt with Muslim merchants. Your husband's reaction was the first thing that came to my mind reading the story, which I'd never heard before. I mean, hello?-Mohammed lived in sixth/seventh century *Arabia*-the odds are overwhelming that he never even laid eyes on the letter "M". (plus, the conventional wisdom is that he was illiterate, but most non-muslims probably wouldn't know that). Frankly, the story seems to reflect an ignorance of history and a kind of cultural self-centeredness that can only be described as staggering. Sort of like a story about how Confucious got peeved because people kept calling him "Confused".
> Blessed be, > Baha Klinger - 27 Sep 2004 21:01 GMT > > Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above > > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > like a story about how Confucious got peeved because people kept > calling him "Confused". Just to be clear, let me say that my reaction to the story isn't meant in any way to be a reflection on the OP. The story is cute; but as I said my immediate reaction was that even allowing for the suspension of belief it doesn't make sense historically.
> > > Blessed be, > > Baha Singh - 29 Sep 2004 03:40 GMT > > > Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above > > > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > said my immediate reaction was that even allowing for the suspension > of belief it doesn't make sense historically. All legends have a basis in fact; and, like all stories that have been passed orally for a few generations, it probably did get either embellished, or thrown into a stewpot with the Virgin Mary and a Chinese lover. My opinion is that the Islamic/Arabic variant originated in North Africa, probably Morocco, and came through Spain. My husband does agree with it coming into contact with the Mary variant, and says that, owing to the form of the Latin M, was further Christianized.
But it's neither here nor there. It's a nice, charming story. I think of it as reading King Arthur or Robin Hood stories. I think those have non-Christain roots too, and were changed much from generations of oral storytelling and sanitizing by the monks who finally wrote them. But that fact does not deny me the pleasure of the story.
Blessed be, Baha
Howard Berkowitz - 01 Oct 2004 21:49 GMT > > > Have you ever looked at a tabby cat's face and noticed the mark above > > > the eyes that looks like an M? There is a legend about this that some > > > call the Mark of Mohammed, and was probably brought into Europe by > > > merchants who traded with Arabs and the Arabic-speaking peoples of > > > North > > > Africa.
> > > I told my husband and he joked with me that it should have been the > > > Arabic M-letter, but I figured that this legend came into Europe [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > said my immediate reaction was that even allowing for the suspension > of belief it doesn't make sense historically. It might have some basis that evolved. Many years back, when I was the network architect for the Library of Congress, one of my projects was an attempt to build a terminal for all the languages (around 800) and alphabets (about 140) we cataloged. Given this was mid- to late-seventies, the technology just wasn't there.
While I can't read content in any nonroman alphabets, I did learn the visual appearance/display characteristics of many. Most people assumed our biggest problem would be Chinese, with about 100,000 ideographs in scholarly use. It wasn't, because Chinese characters are built up from a much more manageable set of graphic elements called radicals.
The big problem was with cursive languages, in which you don't know what form of a letter to display until its successor is typed. When you write in cursive script, you don't consciously think of the rules for writing an "r" connected to an "e", rather than an "r" at the end of a sentence. Most languages have a printed form that makes this a non-issue, but, among others, the written forms of Semitic languages including Hebrew and Arabic [1] are completely cursive.
Anyway, I've forgotten most of the alphabets, but there is an interesting amount of commonality among completely different alphabets. The "L" sound is written as an "L" in English, as the Lamedh character in Hebrew, and a similarly named character in Arabic. It doesn't look quite like an L, but it does have similarity in being angular. ISTR there are also some similarities in M and N like characters.
So, it's possible the legend started with an Arabic character, and the closest Roman letter is M. Perhaps someone here is literate in Arabic, Hebrew, Farsi, Pashtu, or some other script of this family, and can comment.
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 01 Oct 2004 23:51 GMT > Most languages have a printed form that makes this a non-issue, but, > among others, the written forms of Semitic languages including Hebrew > and Arabic [1] are completely cursive. What were you going to note here (with the [1])? I'm curious.
> Anyway, I've forgotten most of the alphabets, but there is an > interesting amount of commonality among completely different alphabets. > The "L" sound is written as an "L" in English, as the Lamedh character > in Hebrew, and a similarly named character in Arabic. It doesn't look > quite like an L, but it does have similarity in being angular. And don't forget the Greek lambda, also similar looking. I'm not sure what the Cyrillic letter for the L sound is, but it's probably similar to the lambda since Cyrillic was based on the Greek alphabet.
I find it interesting that all these alphabets have more or less the same alphabetical order, give or take some variations. All start with A, B, {C/G}, D, all have L, M, N somwhere in the middle, and all have some variant of R, S, T near the end.
Joyce
Howard Berkowitz - 02 Oct 2004 02:46 GMT > > Most languages have a printed form that makes this a non-issue, but, > > among others, the written forms of Semitic languages including Hebrew [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Joyce Oh--I meant to say that I was making some simplifications on calling a certain set of languages and alphabets Semitic, when some of the languages are of different families but use the Arabic or other alphabet. Now, I may not remember this precisely, but Pashtun, a language of Afghanistan and Pakistan (and yes, there are different spellings in the different regions) is based on Urdu, but written with the Arabic rather than Sanskrit alphabet. Farsi also uses the Arabic alphabet but is from a different family.
John F. Eldredge - 03 Oct 2004 01:16 GMT > > Most languages have a printed form that makes this a non-issue, > > but, among others, the written forms of Semitic languages [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Joyce If I remember correctly, the Cyrillic alphabet was derived from the Greek alphabet, the Roman alphabet was also derived from the Greek alphabet, and the Greek and Arabic alphabets were derived from one that originated in either Hebrew or Aramaic (the oldest examples in both languages are very similar, and are from about the same time period). As I understand it, Hebrew and Aramaic originated as different dialects of the same language, but diverged more over time. I am not a professional linguist, only an occasionally-interested amateur, so I may not have all of the details quite right.
 Signature John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 28 Sep 2004 08:51 GMT > the story seems to reflect an ignorance of history and a kind of > cultural self-centeredness that can only be described as staggering. > Sort of like a story about how Confucious got peeved because people > kept calling him "Confused". LOL! Is there such a story? Or were you just making that up as an example of the same sort of thing? I hope it's the latter!
There probably is a story about Mohammed cutting his sleeve to avoid disturbing a sleeping kitten, which might or might not be conflated with the story of... ? ... someone cutting his sleeve so not to disturb his sleeping *lover*. (Someone here mentioned this the other day.) And the tabby "M" story probably got conflated with the sleeve-cutting story, both being about cats and all. :)
By the way, the word "tabby" itself originates from someplace in the Middle East. Not sure if it's from Iran (Persia) or an Arab country. It comes from "atabi", a type of striped fabric. This type of fabric is named for the city it comes from (Atabi).
Joyce
William Hamblen - 02 Oct 2004 05:09 GMT >By the way, the word "tabby" itself originates from someplace in the >Middle East. Not sure if it's from Iran (Persia) or an Arab country. It >comes from "atabi", a type of striped fabric. This type of fabric is >named for the city it comes from (Atabi). Atabi is in Baghdad, Iraq, where they made striped cloth. Tabby probably is the natural coloration of house cats in the wild. Lots of species of cat have stripes.
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 03 Oct 2004 08:31 GMT > Atabi is in Baghdad, Iraq, where they made striped cloth. Is Atabi a neighorhood or section of Baghdad? Kind of like the way Queens is part of New York City, for example?
Joyce
William Hamblen - 02 Oct 2004 15:49 GMT > > Atabi is in Baghdad, Iraq, where they made striped cloth. > >Is Atabi a neighorhood or section of Baghdad? Kind of like the way Queens >is part of New York City, for example? Yep.
Atabi is a Arabic family name, too.
John F. Eldredge - 03 Oct 2004 14:37 GMT >>By the way, the word "tabby" itself originates from someplace in >>the Middle East. Not sure if it's from Iran (Persia) or an Arab [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >probably is the natural coloration of house cats in the wild. Lots >of species of cat have stripes. The African Wildcat, _Felis libyca_, ancestor of the domestic cat, _Felix catus_, looks very much like a domestic tabby cat. See http://lynx.uio.no/catfolk/libyca01.htm. The domestic cat and _Felis libyca_ are considered subspecies of _Felis sylvestris_, the wildcat. Apparently the two are close enough genetically that some fertile hybrids occur.
 Signature John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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