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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / October 2004Bad Neighbors & Morganna Update
Last week, the one horrible neighbor was finally evicted. You would think that would be the end of it, wouldn't you? But no, he had not made plans (in spite of plenty of warning) for his "stuff", so he and his buds hung around most of the time for several days, until it rained and ruined anything that was left he hadn't managed to haul off somewhere. And then I hear a series of loud noises. By the time I go to investigate, all I can see is guy talking to another guy a little way down. Didn't think to look at the back door to the apartment next door until I went out later that evening. And it was wide open. Someone had busted the door in! The police couldn't find anyone in there, and didn't seem all that interested in doing much about it, in spite of me giving them the guy's name, where he hangs out, etc. DH and I were really nervous, with that door open. We had one big piece of plywood, so I sent DH over to secure the back door until the landlord's guys could get there the following day. DH went over with hammer, nails and the plywood, and got the job done. He came running, literally, into the apartment, and threw himself into the bathtub. What? He was *covered* with fleas. :-( He unfortunately managed to drop a few on his way, apparently, as it was obvious within 48 hours that our guys all had fleas. Grrrrrr. So it was a bus trip to the vet yesterday, to get Advantage for eight cats. Luckily, this clinic lets me buy the dog versions, gives me syringes, and lets me break it down. Much cheaper that way. Merlyn is allergic, so she *really* needed it. And of course, she's the one who acted like I was trying to kill her when I put the stuff on the back of her neck. Go figure. Arthur was unfortunately watching, so he did his best impression of a wriggling worm while I tried to apply his. Managed to get it on, although a bit off-center. He and his buds haven't been around since they boarded up the back door and hauled off the rest of the stuff. Hopefully, it stays that way. I have exchanged phone messages with the woman who has Morganna (now Tallulah -- I like it, it fits her). She sounds nice, and intends on keeping her inside, but I cannot get to talk to her about declawing :-( I am going to send her my adoption contract (got it somewhere off the 'Net and revised it to including a "no-declaw" section), along with some info downloaded probably from zuzu's site (yes, really! lol! Hey, good information, is good information!), and see what she does with that. I hate to think of this little one being declawed, but it is pretty much out of my hands in all ways at this point. The woman was open to looking at the contract, though, so we shall see. With luck, she won't even be cosidering declawing anyway, and all will be well. Sounds like she really loves Morganna, she's getting along with her two other cats, has lots of toys, good food, etc. And at least she is out of that hellhole where she was. Funny thing, in all this. The other day, I heard birds singing for the first time this year. It shocked me for a moment. And I realized that these people were so horrendous, so loud, that they actually frightened the birds away! They're back now, and the crickets, too. Blessed peace! Ginger-lyn > Funny thing, in all this. The other day, I heard birds singing for > the first time this year. It shocked me for a moment. And I realized [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ginger-lyn I am so glad to hear that! It's wonderful that the nasty ones are gone, and that nature is returning to a normal balance. > > Funny thing, in all this. The other day, I heard birds singing for > > the first time this year. It shocked me for a moment. And I realized [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am so glad to hear that! It's wonderful that the nasty ones are gone, > and that nature is returning to a normal balance. I'm hoping that the birdsong is a good sign. I always find it uplifting, even if its just sparrows chattering away. I find quiet places that don't also have birdsong quite eerie. Yowie > I have exchanged phone messages with the woman who has Morganna (now > Tallulah -- I like it, it fits her). She sounds nice, and intends on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Ginger-lyn Ginger-lyn, I know this has been a very difficult, time-consuming, and stressful situation for you. However, in the future, please (1) get the adoptive "parent" to sign the adoption papers, including the declaw agreement, *before* you release a cat into their care; and (2) have a serious discussion about declaw and make sure that there will be no "afterthoughts" about it -- again, *before* adoption (or fostering, if that could lead to adoption). MaryL >Ginger-lyn, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >MaryL I know, Mary, and I had the phone screen interview, the adoption agreement, and everything ready to go. This is the first time I have tried to place a cat privately, and it was a desperate situation at the time to get her out of here and into somewhere else temporarily. Unfortunately, the temporary person took matters into her own hands before I could stop her :-( If I could have kept the kitten here, it would have gone much more the way I had planned, but that wasn't an option. Believe me, in the future, if anything like this ever arises again, I won't let one go without making it clear that these steps must be taken first, whether it's to a fosterer or a prospective adoptive parent. It just didn't dawn on me at all that a fosterer would ever be the type to promote declawing -- I have never heard/read of such a thing. Every fosterer I have ever known or read about is anti-declaw. Now I know better. We'll see what she does when I send her the material. Any purrs would be appreciated that she signs and agrees with the anti-declaw statement. Ginger-lyn Exhausted <snip> >We'll see what she does when I send her the material. Any purrs would >be appreciated that she signs and agrees with the anti-declaw >statement. Certainly we can send purrs that she'll read and agree with the anti-declaw. And don't beat yourself up about not learning about her stance earlier. As I remember, it was an emergency type situation where you pretty much needed to spirit Morganna away before the neighbors would think about recaliming her.  SignatureSteve Touchstone, faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Rocky stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email] Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html > I know, Mary, and I had the phone screen interview, the adoption > agreement, and everything ready to go. This is the first time I have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > again, I won't let one go without making it clear that these steps > must be taken first Hey Ginger-Lyn - that was a hellish situation for both you and Morganna/Tallula. I know you did the best thing you could under the circumstances, and you most certainly saved that kitten's life. And no matter how terrible declawing is, it's not as bad as being killed, or slowly starving to death, or living a neglected, stressed-out life, as she most likely would have in that horrible household. I'm sure you know the phrase "beggars can't be choosers". Sometimes, in desperate situations, you just have to take what's offered, even when it's far from ideal, because it's better than the alternative. So don't beat yourself about it. You've learned something important and you'll be more prepared if you should ever need to place a cat in a new home. Purrs that you can convince Tallula's adopter not to declaw her!! Joyce > >Ginger-lyn, > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Ginger-lyn > Exhausted Could you demand the return of the cat if the woman will not sign adoption papers that include a no-declaw provision (or even if you suspect that she m ay not abide by the agreement)? If a temporary person took matters into her own hands and released the cat without your permission, then the transfer may have been illegal. A foster parent does not have legal custody of the cat (just as a foster parent for a human baby cannot legally make a decision concerning an adoptive parent). That cat was not hers to "give away." MaryL >Could you demand the return of the cat if the woman will not sign adoption >papers that include a no-declaw provision (or even if you suspect that she m [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >MaryL I doubt it. From her message it sounds like she has no intention of giving up the kitten. And possession is 9/10 of the law, as they say. I have nothing other than a couple of instant photos to prove I ever had her, and although I surely am not very conversant with law in these matters, I doubt there is anything I can do other than (1) hope she isn't interested in declawing or, if she is (2) hope I can talk her out of it. Legally, I don't think I even have the right to demand she sign the agreement at this point. Best I can do is send the info and contract, and see what happens at that point. Ginger-lyn Ginger-lyn wrote: >I have nothing other than a couple of >instant photos to prove I ever had her Oh yes you do. You have the messages you wrote here. They are date and time stamped and they spell out exactly what happened and that you put the cat in foster care. Even if you did the no-archive, there are others that quoted you so the messages would still be available. Getting Morganna away from an animal abuser only to allow her to be abused by being declawed is unconscionable. Sitting here posting that you don't think you can do anything without even *trying* is inexcusable. You need to read the quote in my sigline and think about what it means. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Ginger-lyn wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Megan Myself, I think Ginger-lyn did her best. If it went wrong, it went wrong. Giving people a guilt trip when they think they've done the best they can isn't helpful, Megan. It doesn't achieve anything, except to make someone who is doing her best, feel bad. You did good, Ginger-lyn.. FWIW. Tweed take no notice of... >Myself, I think Ginger-lyn did her best. No, she didn't. This is not over yet. >If it went wrong, it went wrong. Oh, so in your book if something goes wrong you should just throw your hands up and walk away instead of trying to make things right? That's cowardly. >Giving people a guilt trip when they think >they've done the best they can isn't >helpful, Megan. She hasn't even come close to doing the best she can, and I gave her a pretty damn good reason not to give up and a way to prove the kitten is indeed hers. It's amazingly sad and unfathomable that you, and unfortunately many others here, who profess to be such cat lovers, are so ready to just accept that this innocent kitten will get declawed instead of holding Ginger-lyn accountable for ensuring that the welfare of this animal comes first. She has spent her posting time in this thread making excuses and assumptions without lifting a finger to actually do anything. If she spent as much time actually trying to get this kitten back as she does boo-hooing on this newsgroup she might have accomplished something by now. But it seems she's more than happy to allow this kitten to suffer abuse *again* (she already did it to her once.) I just don't get it. WTF is wrong with you people that you won't take a stand and advocate for the welfare of this kitten? Why do you just say nothing and defend the indefensible? You're more concerned with hurting Ginger-lyn's feelngs than for a kitten that has been put in a situation where she is likely going to be harmed for the second time? Don't you get it? Wrong is wrong, even if you happen to like the perpetrator, and defending the person doing wrong makes you complicit in the tragedy that will befall this kitten if Ginger-lyn doesn't quit this tiresome boo-hooing, get off of her a.s and take action. >It doesn't achieve anything, except to >make someone who is doing her best, feel >bad. She SHOULD feel bad. She has failed this kitten TWICE now. It's still not too late to do something, but you've made it clear that you've already written this kitten off and you're nothing short of despicable for doing so. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >Myself, I think Ginger-lyn did her best. > > No, she didn't. This is not over yet. Yes, she did. It's easy for you to say, you weren't there. >>If it went wrong, it went wrong. > > Oh, so in your book if something goes wrong you should just throw your > hands up and walk away instead of trying to make things right? That's > cowardly. That isn't what I said. I happen to think that Ginger-lyn did the best she thought at the time. >>Giving people a guilt trip when they think >>they've done the best they can isn't [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > instead of holding Ginger-lyn accountable for ensuring that the welfare > of this animal comes first. Ginger-lyn isn't accountable if this kitten get declawed. The only person who is to blame for that is her new owner. > She has spent her posting time in this thread making excuses and > assumptions without lifting a finger to actually do anything. If she > spent as much time actually trying to get this kitten back as she does > boo-hooing on this newsgroup she might have accomplished something by > now. But it seems she's more than happy to allow this kitten to suffer > abuse *again* (she already did it to her once.) I don't agree with you. If you feel so strongly about it, take steps to adopt this kitten yourself. > I just don't get it. WTF is wrong with you people that you won't take a > stand and advocate for the welfare of this kitten? Why do you just say [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > will befall this kitten if Ginger-lyn doesn't quit this tiresome > boo-hooing, get off of her a.s and take action. Like I said, adopt the kitten yourself. >>It doesn't achieve anything, except to >>make someone who is doing her best, feel [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > already written this kitten off and you're nothing short of despicable > for doing so. So I take it that you are prepared to adopt this kitten yourself. Get real, Megan. No one on this group does other than their best for cats as they see it. Tweed. Don't get me cross now. > > >Myself, I think Ginger-lyn did her best. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Tweed. > Don't get me cross now. I have seen that remark ("adopt the cat yourself") made by others in the past, and it is nonsensical. We can all try to help with our messages, but none of us can simply set off across the country and adopt every cat that is mentioned on the newsgroup. Megan has been in the cat rescue field for a number of years, and she has adopted far more than most on these newsgroups; but if we expect everyone to adopt a cat if they make suggestions or comments -- even strong ones -- then the newsgroups would simply fold up or become a source only for "feel good" (but not very helpful) messages. MaryL >> > >Myself, I think Ginger-lyn did her best. >> > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > MaryL Megan may well have adopted cats, but in this case her comments weren't useful, even inflammatory. To me anyway. I still support Ginger-lyn and am prepared to argue about it, although I would really rather not. Oh, please. I hate falling out. >>>> Myself, I think Ginger-lyn did her best. >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > MaryL Mary, you know I admire Megan and I know she has also been helpful to you as to many others but she seems to be unfairly targeting Ginger-lyn here when Ginger-Lyn is trying her best. We are none of us perfect in our resources or abilities. We are none of us perfect in our choices, but why does Megan lurk here, never posting a supportive remark or condolence but descending on Ginger-Lyn every time she posts? I cannot understand her single minded hunt of Ginger-lyn when she is doing her best. > I have seen that remark ("adopt the cat yourself") made by others in > the past, and it is nonsensical. We can all try to help with our > messages, but none of us can simply set off across the country and > adopt every cat that is mentioned on the newsgroup. No, but they can sit on their a.s, holed up in front of their computers, making judgements and pronouncements about what other people should have done. That's the really *tough job* that we should all admire, right? In all the time I've been a member of this newsgroup (over 5 years), I have never, ever heard Megan say a single positive word about or toward anyone here. She does nothing but dump her self-righteous sh*t all over everyone. Whoa. What a hero! I'm sorry, Mary, but I agree with Tweed. If Megan's so sure she would have done it better than Ginger-Lyn, then why doesn't she put her money where her mouth is? If you want a job done your way, do it yourself. Otherwise, *shut up* and stay out of the way of the people who ARE doing it. Joyce >I'm sorry, Mary, but I agree with Tweed. If Megan's so sure she would >have done it better than Ginger-Lyn, then why doesn't she put her money [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Joyce In MeganWorld there is one correct viewpoint - hers. If anyone does not look after her cats as Megan thinks fit, then they are wrong and Ms Righteousness Megan takes no prisoners in making sure she tells them how much they are doing wrong. The inflammatory nature of Megan was one of the main reasons I stopped reading rec.pets.cats.health+behaviour. It got to the point where on that group the friendliness deserted it. RPCA *was* a lovely group with good people doing their best by their cats and helping others with tolerance, understanding and friendship. I've now added to my killfile for this group so I and avoid seeing the intolerant, self-righeous crap Megan posts. Ye gods, I do hope she goes away. One can but hope. Cheers, helen s --This is an invalid email address to avoid spam-- to get correct one remove fame & fortune h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$ --Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off-- Helen S wrote: >The inflammatory nature of Megan was >one of the main reasons I stopped reading >rec.pets.cats.health+behaviour. Lying won't change the truth. Your cat suffered severe injury as a result of your neglect (I still can't get over the vision of cars driving right over her while she lay in the road) and when you were held accountable instead of getting the sympathy you were whining for you went away. Fortunately for you, a lot of people here don't hold anyone accountable for their actions (or inaction), or to any kind of a standard, so you can abuse/neglect your cat all you want and people will simply send "purrs" and "good wishes." It's as if they're posting from Stepford. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Helen S wrote: >>The inflammatory nature of Megan was >>one of the main reasons I stopped reading >>rec.pets.cats.health+behaviour. > Lying won't change the truth. Your cat suffered severe injury as a > result of your neglect (I still can't get over the vision of cars > driving right over her while she lay in the road) And this is Helen's fault... HOW?! By the way, I'm asking rhetorically. I am *SO* not interested in your answer to that question, although I'm quite sure you'll find a way to twist all the occurences in the universe on that day and feed it through your distorted hysterical morality, to somehow make it Helen's fault. You are *unbelievable*. A real piece of work. You really, really, REALLY need to get a life. Joyce Joyce wrote: >No, but they can sit on their a.s, holed >up in front of their computers, making >judgements and pronouncements about >what other people should have done. You're doing the same thing, hypocrite. The fact is I have posted things Ginger-lyn can still do, but in your hurry to jump on me you've conveniently ignored that. You want to whine about making judgements but the fact is that we can't live life without making judgements. We judge situations, we judge people's actions. This is the way it goes. Dialogue involves judgement. Argumentation involves judgement. Living in a society involves judgement. There is no such thing as not judging others in one form or other. It is how we make decisions and choices in our lives all the time all day long even in minute, simple ways. The fact that you don't like *how* someone judged a specific incident, person, or thing is an entirely different matter and that is what this is really about. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >You're doing the same thing, hypocrite. The fact is I have posted things >Ginger-lyn can still do, but in your hurry to jump on me you've >conveniently ignored that. Megan, it's the *way* you offered suggestions. Ginger-lyn isn't a "professional" rescuer. She doesn't even work with a shelter, AFAIK. She is just a kindhearted, compassionate person who saw wrong and tried to right it. She made a mistake. Didn't you make mistakes when you first started rescuing? You act like she just threw up her hands and gave up. I didn't read it that way. She's trying to educate the new owner into changing her mind. Suppose the information she's offered to the new owner *is* enough to change her mind about declaw. She's not only saved *that* cat from declaw, but many more. I think educating the new owner is a far better approach than grabbing the cat away from an otherwise good home. So many people who truly love cats are easy to convert. They're declawers because they don't really know much about it. I admit I don't have the information on the new owner to really make a judgment whether she is open to receiving that information though. Grabbing the cat away will save *that* cat from declaw, but she'll just get another one. Sherry > You want to whine about making judgements but the fact is that we can't > live life without making judgements. We judge situations, we judge > people's actions. This is the way it goes. Dialogue involves judgement. > Argumentation involves judgement. Well clearly, *your* life revolves around making judgements. And even if we do need to make judgements, we can most certainly live life without the screeching invectives you indulge yourself in. John Ashcroft has nothing on you in the Calvinistic morality department. PLEASE tell me you don't have children. Joyce >>> Myself, I think Ginger-lyn did her best. >> No, she didn't. This is not over yet. > Yes, she did. It's easy for you to say, > you weren't there. And you were? She specifically stated that she still has to "send" an adoption contract so no, its not over yet. If she had a lick of sense she'd go to this woman's house and make the rules clear. >>> If it went wrong, it went wrong. >> Oh, so in your book if something goes >> wrong you should just throw your hands >> up and walk away instead of trying to >> make things right? That's cowardly. > That isn't what I said. In a few words, that's EXACTLY what you said. "If it went wrong, it went wrong" is what you said and since this isn't done deal yet, you make it clear that you are indeed throwing your hands up and writing this kitten off. I don't see anything in that statement that offers advice for making things right. Just a proclamation that it "went wrong." <snip> >> It's amazingly sad and unfathomable that >> you, and unfortunately many others here, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> accountable for ensuring that the >> welfare of this animal comes first. > Ginger-lyn isn't accountable if this > kitten get declawed. The only person who > is to blame for that is her new owner. Bullshit. This kitten is Ginger-lyn's property and as of right now she's not making any effort to recover her property. If she sits on her a.s and allows the woman that has the kitten to declaw her, when she could refuse the adoption and take steps to retrieve the kitten, then she damn well *is* responsible. >> She has spent her posting time in this >> thread making excuses and assumptions [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> *again* (she already did it to her >> once.) > I don't agree with you. If you feel so > strongly about it, take steps to adopt > this kitten yourself. You can't make a single point on why you don't agree so you resort to telling me I should adopt the kitten? It's not my responsibility to clean up Ginger-lyn's mess. It is hers and hers alone, but apparently she's not interested. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >>>> Myself, I think Ginger-lyn did her best. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > adoption contract so no, its not over yet. If she had a lick of sense > she'd go to this woman's house and make the rules clear. No, I wasn't there, and that's why I'm not making judgments about it. >>>> If it went wrong, it went wrong. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > off. I don't see anything in that statement that offers advice for > making things right. Just a proclamation that it "went wrong." It did go wrong, unfortunately. I have no advice to offer about putting things right. It would never happen in the UK, anyway. Declawing is illegal here. You might be better directing your anger towards lobbying to make it illegal in the USA. My last word on the subject is this. I didn't join this group to get involved in arguments and name-calling. I still think Ginger-lyn did good without the benefit of hindsight.. Full stop. This topic is now closed as far as I'm concerned. Tweed > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > - W.H. Murray >> Myself, I think Ginger-lyn did her best. > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Megan You know I like you Megan and admire your knowledge and your work with cats, but you cannot possibly know how others lives are. I do not. You do not. It's not a matter of being cowardly, but of doing the best in your power. I do not believe you have always been able to help every cat you ever knew about in distress. It is simply impossible. Your haranguing is NOT an effective means of helping animals either. You have many, many, many admirable ideas and you are very helpful at times, but this habit you have of badgering people is not helpful and generally harmful and yes, maybe even harmful to the cats as well since you can manage to set some people up to never even try again through your condemnation of any effort. I'm sorry if this angers you toward me because you have given me exceptional help, but I cannot sit by and watch you do this over and over. You are not even consistent in your "wrath" since I am certain you see many things of which you do not approve or where you think people could "do better". Why do you insist on harping on Ginger-Lyn? What is your prejudice? Almost 100 percent of your posts are condemning and belittling. Why do you never ever post in support of something? I'm certain I've done or said things you don't approve of either. It seems like you are completely "after" Ginger-Lyn and I do not understand your venom on one person here. >> She SHOULD feel bad. She has failed this kitten TWICE now. It's still >> not too late to do something, but you've made it clear that you've [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >You know I like you Megan and admire your knowledge and your work with cats, >but you cannot possibly know how others lives are. I've actually been hoping for the past couple of months that she would not be too mad at all of us, and come back to the newsgroup. I also hoped that she would go easy on us this time around, but no such luck. :) But to be honest, I've never been able to get offended by Megan. Her posts are so extreme, they almost need a BW. I hope she'll stick around longer this time, even if she ends up posting 95% flames and 5% anecdotes. :) >But to be honest, I've never been able to get offended by Megan. Her >posts are so extreme, they almost need a BW. I hope she'll stick >around longer this time, even if she ends up posting 95% flames and 5% >anecdotes. :) Sorry to follow up on my own post, but I thought I might save Megan the trouble, in case she was busy. Tak, it really irks me when you greet me, you abhorrent and shameful excuse for a human being. You have shown yourself to unworthy of owning a cat. I have never seen such an irresponsible, selfish, and coldhearted individual. I truly feel sorry for your Betty, as well as the *millions* of cats that are put to sleep every year because of persons like yourself. ;) >Sorry to follow up on my own post, but I >thought I might save Megan the trouble, >in case she was busy. <snip> What you "think" I would say might apply to some people, it certainly doesn't apply to you and I have never written a thing that would give you that impression. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Tak, it really irks me when you greet me, you abhorrent and shameful > excuse for a human being. You have shown yourself to unworthy of > owning a cat. I have never seen such an irresponsible, selfish, and > coldhearted individual. I truly feel sorry for your Betty, as well as > the *millions* of cats that are put to sleep every year because of > persons like yourself. BWAAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Tak, you lazy, unconscionable animal-abuser, are you skulking around here again?? :) Joyce >>But to be honest, I've never been able to get offended by Megan. Her >>posts are so extreme, they almost need a BW. I hope she'll stick [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > ;) You are a bad bad boy Taki! ;o) Suz Macmoosette Thank Heavens There's Only One =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= Waiting for inspiration. Please hold while I contemplate my navel. |\__/| (=':'=) (")_(") > >> She SHOULD feel bad. She has failed this kitten TWICE now. It's still > >> not too late to do something, but you've made it clear that you've [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > around longer this time, even if she ends up posting 95% flames and 5% > anecdotes. :) The problem is that she is really a kind hearted person towards cats and very good at what she does and very helpful if she chooses not to alienate a person first. I find it very troublesome that such a good person is alienating everyone to her ideas by her delivery. > You know I like you Megan and admire > your knowledge and your work with cats, > but you cannot possibly know how others > lives are. I do not. You do not. Ginger-lyn has gone to great pains to give us the details of her life and since she's posting in a public forum she damn well knows she's going get responses that she may not like. You know this too. You may "like" me, but it doesn't stop you from criticizing me when I get angry about laziness, complacency and harm coming to a kitten. Yet you "like" Ginger-lyn, but you won't criticize her handing a kitten over to an animal abuser. What's wrong with this picture? >It's > not a matter of being cowardly, but of > doing the best in your power. I do not > believe you have always been able to > help every cat you ever knew about in > distress. It is simply impossible. In this instance and the previous ones it has been all about being a coward, and if you don't see that it's because you refuse to. You have a habit of reading posts yet often not seeing the full implications of what is in them. >Your > haranguing is NOT an effective means of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > up to never even try again through your > condemnation of any effort. This is complete and utter bullshit. If people don't act on something, it's because they make the choice not to and nothing I do or say is going to control a complete stranger posting on usenet. And I am not condemning Ginger-lyn's "efforts." What I am condemning is her LACK OF effort which was clearly illustrated in her post where she goes on about what "might" be, but doesn't lift a finger to see what her options are. Apparently you haven't noticed that she is happy to complain, but there is NOT ONE SINGLE f.cking REQUEST for ideas on how to get the kitten back. Just whining. No wonder she's in the situation she's in. >I'm sorry if > this angers you toward me because you > have given me exceptional help, but I > cannot sit by and watch you do this over > and over. Yet you can sit by and watch Ginger-lyn hand a kitten to an animal abuser over and over. >You are not even consistent in > your "wrath" since I am certain you see > many things of which you do not approve > or where you think people could "do > better". I am completely consistent in my principles. I have a life, Karen. I can't spend 24 hours a day on the internet on every little subject. I have 24 cats to support which requires MONEY and I have to get it by WORKING. When I do get on a tear, it's generally directed towards soneone who should know better, or, as in Ginger-lyn's case, CONTINUOUSLY "rescues" cats then turns right around and puts them in jeopardy and is consistently stupid/complacent/lazy in the choices she makes. >Why do you insist on harping on > Ginger-Lyn? What is your prejudice? See above. > Almost 100 percent of your posts are > condemning and belittling. Why do you > never ever post in support of something? I do, and for you to claim I don't is a lie. You know damn well that the welfare of cats is where I place priority and I don't give a sh.t who it is, if they are doing something to endanger/neglect/harm a cat I'm going to say something and if "feelings" get hurt that's their problem. > I'm certain I've done or said things you > don't approve of either. It seems like > you are completely "after" Ginger-Lyn > and I do not understand your venom on > one person here. Because the wellbeing of a kitten is at stake and this ho-hum, weak, boo-hoo it's out of my hands attitude disgusts me. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > > You know I like you Megan and admire > > your knowledge and your work with cats, [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > Megan You know Megan, you completely missed my point. Simply put, you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I will never disparage your work or your knowledge but your people ability is sadly lacking. To be honest, you can say whatever you like, but I really don't believe it's all about the cats anymore. Your posts are much too inflamatory and uneven in nature. How you choose who you are going to berate is a mystery. I'm quite certain you could find fault with everyone if you tried. It is as though you are sitting in some omnipotent glass bubble and picking and choosing who and what you are going to descend on this day or that day. It isn't effective, no matter *what* you believe. It isn't going to change the world. It's usually going to make people stop listening altogether. If that is your goal, then you are achieving it. I know I am certain that this weak, ho-hum, boohooer (for certainly you think very little of me that I did not FLY to Ohio and pick up the kitten from Ginger-lyn - or any of us here for that matter) has really lost the ability to take you seriously when your ONLY tactic is to fly into temper tantrum after temper tantrum in public. It. Doesn't. Work. That is the point. It's that simple. You are shooting your own cause in the foot by continuing the behaviour. I hope you can see that one day because your work is great and your knowledge is terrific and your heart is in the right place but your means of communication needs work. > Why do you insist on harping on Ginger-Lyn? What is your prejudice? > Almost 100 percent of your posts are condemning and belittling. Why do > you never ever post in support of something? ... It seems like you are > completely "after" Ginger-Lyn and I do not understand your venom on one > person here. No kidding! And of all people to go after!! Ginger-Lyn is a sweetheart, who has risked her own safety to help a kitten in trouble. Hey Ginger-Lyn, I hope you're not taking these nasty negative messages to heart. You know that most of us admire you and recognize how much you've done to save this kitten. When someone can do nothing but criticize others, they're just taking their own frustrations and emotional problems out on you. You don't need to take that in. That ignorant self-righteousness says far more about them than it does about you. Purrs, Joyce Must be lonely, being the only person on the planet that lives in a perfect world. I'm very sorry to do this and no, thats not an apology, but rather a regret that I have to use this thing on RPCA, but *plonk* Yowie OK, I can see both sides of this ensuing argument, and I have a few suggestions that may help stem this tide and hopefully get the group back on track so we won't tear ourselves apart (and that wouldn't be to *anyone's* benefit, including our furry owners). First, Megan is right about one thing. I think Ginger-lyn needs to try harder to either convince the fosterer to *not* declaw the kitten (with written assurances), or get the kitten back to give to someone who is better suited to having a clawed housemate. That's why I posted the link to the horribly graphic site that shows an actual declawing. I think Ginger-lyn should print these out and use them as "ammunition" when she talks to the fosterer about not declawing the kitten. However, not everyone is as forthright and assertive as Megan is (or I am). Some people are *very* non-confrontational. [There are all kinds of people in this world, thank goodness, and we can't assume that everyone is just like ourselves or will react to a situation the way we would.] It is extremely hard, sometimes almost impossible, for someone who has a mild demeanor to stand up for themselves or someone else. Ginger-lyn may not be "able" to take a stand on this issue - especially if the fosterer is a very assertive person (which she seems to be since she has pushed ahead so boldly with just taking the kitten). I think what Ginger-lyn needs is not a "dressing down" for not being assertive enough (this only causes an introverted person to be *more* introverted - it does not help them to be more assertive). It's easy for an assertive, extroverted person to say, "Just go over there and *take* the kitten." but, unfortunately, it's not at all easy for an introverted person to do. What Ginger-lyn *does* need is a "script" for what to do. A specific set of instructions, taking into account most possible reactions from the fosterer, so that she is "armed" with knowledge of how to handle an assertive personality. She also needs "hints" on how to at least seem assertive so that she doesn't get walked on. Being an assertive person myself, I can help by giving my advice, but even so I can't be there to do it for her. I can only lend cyber courage and moral support. However, if Ginger-lyn would like to know how *I* would handle the situation, I'd be glad to share that with her. I'm sure Megan would too. But, Megan, just saying, "Get off your a.s and go get the kitten." is not going to help the situation. All it will do is to cause Ginger-lyn to back off from the group, retreat within herself, and erode her courage even more and will actually hurt the situation and cause her to be less likely to try and get the kitten - the opposite, I'm sure, of what you're trying to do, which is to help the kitten. Megan, I understand your frustration, and the urgency you feel to get this kitten into a safe situation - I feel the same way. I think declawing is a horrible, painful mutilation of a helpless animal and I cringe even thinking about it. But we need to focus on helping the kitten, and that means giving Ginger-lyn help in getting the kitten back or getting an assurance that the kitten will not be declawed. You're right in that Ginger-lyn didn't ask for instructions in how to get the kitten back - a shy, introverted person my not even imagine that she could be able to do this. If we all just take a step back, take a deep breath, and use all this energy (and the assertiveness we're displaying ;>) we may be able to put our heads together and figure out a way to help Ginger-lyn and, in the process, help the kitten too. Ginger-lyn, if you do want advice and help in being more assertive you can either respond to this post or send me an email (even send me your phone number so I can call you), and I'll help you in any way I can. Hugs, CatNipped CatNipped, you are awesome -- you also have a gifted way with words -- I have been thinking about how to help in this situation since I first read this thread this a.m. and all during my 2-hour drive today till I could finally sit down at the computer to say something. You said it beautifully. WE CAN ALL WORK TOGETHER AND HELP GINGER-LYN HELP THIS KITTEN. If this group puts it's mind, resources, and support behind this we can make a positive difference for this kitty and help empower Ginger-lyn as well. Ideas for helping the new owner agree not to declaw(sign a contract) so she will be able to keep the kitten. Education materials and a good speaker from a local rescue group who would go with Ginger-lyn to present this info - You can probably assume that the new owner is already getting attached to this kitten and if things are presented calmly and assertively about how to help her with kitten so that she doesn't feel like declawing is her only solution, it may work out fine. If she's worried about how the kitten will interact with her already declawed cats, she can be assured probably from online examples or testimonials about how clawed and declawed kitties can get along without any issues. She could be taught how to trim the kitten's claws instead (a kitten could get used to this easily). It would be important to assure this owner that she could have a lot of support and resources to draw on to help her -- that means providing ideas to the new owner about what to do if the kitten does something with her claws that the owner doesn't like -- possibly these ideas could be typed up in advance to give the owner so she has some written guidelines to follow -- we could cull ideas from this group and/or rescue group resources/and/or website resources towards this end. I'd also suggest contacting all the local rescue groups in Ginger-lyn's area and seeing a) about the above; and (b) about the possibility of doing an exchange -- if the owner absolutely has to have a declawed cat then find a rescue group that would be willing to take Morganna in exchange for a declawed kitten or cat that they already are fostering. Another idea: From personal experience, I've found that rescue groups are very grateful for donations and I'd be willing to contribute a donation to help sponsor Morganna to a rescue group. Hopefully, we won't need to do this but I'd also be willing to contribute to help "buy" Morganna back and/or to help pay towards travel expenses for someone to go out and get Morganna. One personal note I can tell you all: From my own personal experiences, last year with the help and support from the right people(both the loving positive encouragement from this newsgroup and the daily/weekly phone positive informational phone calls, yes, from Megan and on her nickel I might add, all through last summer, fall and winter; she has a boatload of positive ideas to try to help resolve kitty issues. ) , I was able to draw on strengths I didn't know I had to accomplish things I didn't know I could do and I'm talking about the rehab of feral Tucker to his current housekitty status as well as finding a loving home for special needs FIV+ kitty, Pirate. What do ya'll say, rpca'ers? Can you come up with other positive ideas? Ginger-lyn, this is your kitty and we want to help her. Let's work toward the good here and see what we can help do for this baby. Thank you very much for reading this. Christine Burel (Ginger-lyn, feel free to email me, too, if I can help.) pictures of Tucker, Pirate, and others at http://photos.yahoo.com/cfbureltoo > OK, I can see both sides of this ensuing argument, and I have a few > suggestions that may help stem this tide and hopefully get the group back on [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > CatNipped > One personal note I can tell you all: From my own personal experiences, > last year with the help and support from the right people(both the loving [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > pictures of Tucker, Pirate, and others at > http://photos.yahoo.com/cfbureltoo Thank you Christine, this is what I was hoping for. You had some great suggestions for Ginger-lyn. I'm sure Megan does too. I can understand feeling a bit impatient with people who aren't assertive. I get impatient *for* them more than with them - but the reaction looks the same. I'd like to be able to jump up and fight all their battles for them because I so love a good fight ;>, but you just can't do that in real life. Life experience (being older than dirt) is what made me realize that pushing someone to do what I want them to do, in the *way* I want them to do it, usually has just the opposite effect. Also, I've worked for big oil companies for most of my life (ducking ;>), and the one thing they did right was to teach their employees "team building" skills. I went through the Myers-Briggs testing several times. I'm an ENTP for those of you who know what that means, but if you do you probably guessed that already from my posts. ENTP stands for "Extrovert, iNtuitive, Thinking, Perceptive". Basically that means I'm a pushy bit*h! ;> No, really, it means I am outgoing, forthright, logical (to the detriment of my "feeling" side) and learn best through perceived experience. The easiest way to "reach" me is to state something very logically, with very specific examples, and show how that logical chain will acheive the desired results. My "opposite" would be a person who is ISFJ ("Introvert, Sensing, Feeling, Judging"). An ISFJ person is more inward-looking, looks at the world more through their feelings, is very sensitive, and judges a situation on how it makes them or others feel. The easiest way to "reach" an ISFJ person is to appeal to their feelings, make them see a situation from an emotional point of view, or show them how something will make someone else feel. These two opposites often butt heads and can't seem to get through to each other, even if the same outcome is desired by both. I've found that the most efficient way to interact with other people is to observe them and listen to how they speak (or read how they write). From this you can usually tell what "type" of personality you are dealing with. Then it's a matter of putting things in a way that makes the most sense to them. If you try to push your way of looking at a situation at someone, you will "lose" them almost immediately and have no further hope of persuading them to you point of view. When the two opposites learn how to work together they make an unbeatable team - able to look at a situation from *all* sides and then to create the ideal solution to any problem. That's what I'm hoping we'll be able to do here. Anyway, that's just my two cents. Hugs, CatNipped >Thank you Christine, this is what I was hoping for. You had some great >suggestions for Ginger-lyn. I'm sure Megan does too. I can understand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >someone to do what I want them to do, in the *way* I want them to do it, >usually has just the opposite effect. You're absolutely right. It *does* have the opposite effect. I will go to extremes to avoid a confrontation if I can, in real life. I'm not so introverted on usenet. Go figure. Anyway, nothing turns me off more than someone who is walking the fine line between "assertive" and "bossy." Unless it's someone who is so obviously trying to "work" me with some kind of psycho-babble. Really, it's not that complicated. Karen summed it up in one sentence. "You can catch more flies with honey." Sherry Sherry > You're absolutely right. It *does* have the opposite effect. I will go to > extremes to avoid a confrontation if I can, in real life. I'm not so [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "You can > catch more flies with honey." > Sherry Sorry Sherry, I really didn't mean for it to sound like psycho-babble, and I really wasn't trying to "work" anyone, and you're right the "catch more flies with honey" approach is exactly was I was trying (admittedly long-windedly) to say. My apologies for butting in, I just really hate to see this group tear at each other - this is *so* unlike the people here. Hugs, CatNipped >Sorry Sherry, I really didn't mean for it to sound like psycho-babble, and I >really wasn't trying to "work" anyone, and you're right the "catch more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >CatNipped No need to apologize. I was agreeing with you. It *does* have the opposite effect, just like you said. I am not exactly introverted, but I do not enjoy and try to avoid confrontations IRL. That doesn't mean I'm *incapable* of standing up for what I think is right. I still think Gingerlyn is on the right track. The anti-declaw information she's supplied is very compelling. She yanks the cat out of the home, she's saved one cat from declaw. But if she changes the owner's mind, she's saved every cat that person acquires from declaw. Ginger-Lyn is smart, and articulate. You can tell that from her posts. I'm not going to underestimate her abilities. :-) Sherry > I still think Gingerlyn is on the right track. The anti-declaw information > she's supplied is very compelling. She yanks the cat out of the home, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sherry You're right, I didn't think about that aspect, but every time we convince someone of how horrific declawing is we're saving the suffering of every cat that person will ever rescue (and usually people who declaw their cats, and *then* find out what it entails, are outspoken advocates for NOT declawing cats - so she may well convince others too). Hugs, CatNipped > I went through the Myers-Briggs testing several times. I'm an ENTP for > those of you who know what that means, but if you do you probably guessed > that already from my posts. Wow, I would've pegged you as an ENFP - you strike me as someone who cares a lot about relationships, feelings, and personal values. If you make decisions based on what "feels right", or because it's the "right thing to do", you're an F. If you do something because it "makes the most sense" then you're a T. At least that's how I understand the distinction. Joyce - INFJ PS - anybody type their cats? :) > > I went through the Myers-Briggs testing several times. I'm an ENTP for > > those of you who know what that means, but if you do you probably guessed [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Joyce - INFJ You're kidding-- I'm an INFJ, too. *Stinky* is an ENFP. ;) Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com > Wow, I would've pegged you as an ENFP - you strike me as someone who cares > a lot about relationships, feelings, and personal values. If you make I had to *learn* to do that - which is why the "team building" was so great. It made me realize that I had pay attention to other people's feelings instead of trying to "bulldoze" them with logic. It opened up a whole new world for me and I get *so* much more satisfaction from relationships now that I ever did. Actually, when I took the test I was so *extremely* ENTP (all my scores where at the farthest end of each category) that they paid extra attention to me to try to teach me how to relate to an ISFJ. ;> Even so, I'm probably more "F" with this group than anywhere else, because I think that so many people here are "F" and that's the best way to relate to them. And I really *like* people who are "F"s because they are usually so kind and caring, they go to extremes to avoid hurting others. > decisions based on what "feels right", or because it's the "right thing > to do", you're an F. If you do something because it "makes the most sense" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > PS - anybody type their cats? :) Yep. ;> Bandit - ENTP Demi - ISFJ Jessie - ESFP Sammy - ENFP Hugs, CatNipped > Bandit - ENTP > Demi - ISFJ > Jessie - ESFP > Sammy - ENFP Wow, you have a group of outgoing cats there! Roxy and Smudge are somewhat outgoing - when I have a party, Roxy will come and sit on an empty chair and do all sorts of "cute kitty" poses for the guests. She'll also check out different people, climb up on them, etc. Smudge will eventually hang out in the area, too, but gets a bit overwhelmed by too much noise. So I'd have to call her an introvert. Licorice is a total chicken cat and dives under the bed every time the doorbell rings. :) OK, how does one evaluate the other qualities? How do you know whether your cat thinks abstractly or concretely, decides based on feelings or logic, prefers spontaneity or structure? :) (Actually, I think all cats are Js - they definitely need structure and don't like any deviation in their routines! :)) Joyce > > Bandit - ENTP > > Demi - ISFJ [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Joyce Bandit is an "extrovert" in the sense that she doesn't run and hide from anything or anyone. She will not actively seek out company, but when someone gets in her face she "pushes" right back at 'em. I think she's "intuitive" because she can understand so *many* things I say to her (DH and I have taken to spelling out things we don't want her to understand, but lately I think she's learned how to spell!! ;>). I think she's "thinking" rather than "feeling" because she is *so* insentitive to everyone else's feelings - she's *very* selfish. I think she is "perceiving" rather than "judging" because she appears very logical and has figured out many problems (like how to open a cabinet door in order to get something she wants from inside). Demi is our "introvert" - she is afraid of *everything* and *everybody*. She is very shy and sensitive, gets her feelings hurt easily, and judges every situation by the way she feels about it. She's much sweeter than Bandit. Jessie is very outgoing, very smart, but much more emotional and sweeter than Bandit. Sammy is very much like Bandit, but *SO* much sweeter and kinder. Of course, Idi Amin could be described as much sweeter than Bandit!!! ;> Anyway, that's why I picked the "types" I did for each of them. Hugs, CatNipped <snip> > I went through the Myers-Briggs testing several times. I'm an ENTP for > those of you who know what that means, but if you do you probably guessed [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > appeal to their feelings, make them see a situation from an emotional point > of view, or show them how something will make someone else feel. I'm an INFP. I can adopt the E and T positions if I either get a head of steam or get my thinking cap on, but I just don't have a drop of S or J blood in me. I used to think that about me being an extreme introvert, too, but I've come out of my shell more now that I have a good bunch of friends and people who love & care for me (and I them). As an extremely non-confrontational person, I'd try the "I'd like to be kept informed about the kitty because I care about you AND the kitty" tack, but I'd be emphasising the "you don't want to hurt someone (or somefur) you love", the drawbacks to declawing "What if kitty got outside?", "may turn to biting" and "may feel insecure" as well as offering positive alternatives to deal with clawing. I'd reassure the owner it was *their* decision in the end, but that I didn't want to see *any* kitty suffer unnecessarily (its important to acknowledge that, in the end, its their decision, not yours, because, well, it *is*). I'd probably leave some pamphletts but not too much of a big deal about it because then it seems pushy. I make my decisons after some time of pondering - a solitary activity , and I don't like being badgered into a quick decison and I certainly don't like being preached at. If someone starts harping on me, I get my hackles up and the more they go on, the less I listen, to the point of being sorely tempted to do the exact thing they don't want me to do, just to spit in their face.... Preaching from Righteousness, is the *worst* way to convince someone to change their mind, IMHO. The best way to convince someone to change their mind, IMHO, is to let them see why its in their own best interests to adopt that idea "they" have just had. As a gesture of good will, I'd also offer to teach the new owner to how to clip the claws and supply a free (if I could afford it) scratching post and a set of clippers if they agree that come around to seeing that declawing is not in the kitty's best interest after all. More flies with honey and all that... Yowie >I certainly don't like being preached at. >If someone starts harping on me, I get my hackles up and the more they go >on, the less I listen, to the point of being sorely tempted to do the exact >thing they don't want me to do, just to spit in their face.... You're a lot like me in that regard. Sherry >> I certainly don't like being preached at. If someone starts harping >> on me, I get my hackles up and the more they go on, the less I >> listen, to the point of being sorely tempted to do the exact thing >> they don't want me to do, just to spit in their face.... > > You're a lot like me in that regard. I think most of us feel that way. Nobody likes to be lectured at, or have it be implied (or sometimes, stated outright) that they are doing things the wrong way, have deep character flaws, or whatever. Joyce >I think most of us feel that way. Nobody likes to be lectured at, or >have it be implied (or sometimes, stated outright) that they are doing >things the wrong way, have deep character flaws, or whatever. > >Joyce And unfortunately, the shelter environment always has more than its share of bossy, "assertive" individuals. I can cope with them pretty well and sometimes that trait can be good. More often, they just run off the good volunteers, and the bossy ones tend to never be the "stayers." The first time things don't go their way, you never see them again. Sherry > I'm an INFP. > I can adopt the E and T positions if I either get a head of steam > or get my thinking cap on, but I just don't have a drop of S or J > blood in me. LOL. Either I'm not as good at typing people as I thought I was, or else it's harder than it seems to try to guess people's types over the Internet. But I would have *definitely* said you were a T, no question about it! Which is not to say that you're not a feeling person (a common mistake people make when learning about Myers-Briggs, ie, that T's are heartless and F's are stupid - NOT TRUE). But you seem like such a logical person, and you seem to come from a place of "but this just makes the most *sense*" about things. Not that I'm trying to tell you you're wrong about yourself, LOL! Just that you come across to me differently than how you see yourself, and I thought you might find that interesting. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool F, and I don't think anyone would make a mistake about that! I waver between E and I depending on the environment and my state of mind. I can be very social and outgoing, but sometimes I find it overwhelming and need to go off and be alone for a while. People often think of me as a P because I'm always late for everything and I'm disorganized and discombobulated a good part of the time. But my true nature is J - that is how I'm happiest. When I'm exhibiting P traits, that means I'm stressed out and can't cope. When I'm on top of things - when things are well-planned, well-structured, and well-running, that means I'm feeling good. I have this prejudice against the "S" designation, as I tend to think it means unimaginative and uncreative. I certainly think of myself as an N because I have a very strong inner life, and I think very abstractly, but whenever I've taken MBTI tests, I come out almost near the middle of that scale. Eeek, the dreaded S!! :) Joyce >Either I'm not as good at typing people as I thought I was, or else it's >harder than it seems to try to guess people's types over the Internet. >But I would have *definitely* said you were a T, no question about it! >Which is not to say that you're not a feeling person (a common mistake >people make when learning about Myers-Briggs I would think it's always hard to make a judgement based on someone's writing style. Especially hard on the internet when they is no face to face meeting and you have no idea if someone is just dashing off something off the top of their head, or writing something and going over it several times proofing what they've written. BTW, I've never heard of Myers-Briggs, so don't know what you all are talking about. I've gather that it's some sort of personality study that might be used during company seminars? SignatureSteve Touchstone, faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Rocky stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email] Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html > BTW, I've never heard of Myers-Briggs, so don't know what you all are > talking about. I've gather that it's some sort of personality study [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html > Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html Yeah, it's basically just common sense - people have different types of personalities and deal with situations in different ways. Where it is really helpful is teaching you how to put yourself in someone else's shoes and try to see things the way they see them. That helps you put things in a way that they will relate to. It helps teams of different type personalities to be able to work on problems together and use each others' strengths to solve problems. It also tells you what stresses other people and how to recognize that stress related behavior so that you can avoid "butting heads" and arguing just for arguments' sake. The important thing to know, and I think we all already know it here, is that there is no right or wrong type, no better or worse ways of dealing, just differences. When we learn to use those differences to the advantage of everyone, everyone benefits. If I were on a team and we had a situation where we had to negotiate with someone who used feelings to make decisions (actually a very good way to make decisions when dealing with personnel), I would let an "F" type team member take the lead. If we were dealing with a "things" problem (numbers, programs, etc.) and not people, I might take the lead. Hugs, CatNipped > >Either I'm not as good at typing people as I thought I was, or else it's > >harder than it seems to try to guess people's types over the Internet. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > talking about. I've gather that it's some sort of personality study > that might be used during company seminars? I found a site online to take the test. I just took it and it seems that I am ESTJ. You can check it yourself at http://similarminds.com/myers-briggs-jung.html SignatureBritta Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that's covered in fur! Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album > I found a site online to take the test. I just took it and it seems > that I am ESTJ. You can check it yourself at > http://similarminds.com/myers-briggs-jung.html LOL! I seem to be an INTJ, what they call a 'Mastermind'. ROFL! SignatureMarina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki > I seem to be an INTJ, what they call a 'Mastermind'. ROFL! LOL. That's the typical engineer type, ie, the typical geek. Are you a geek? :) Joyce > > I seem to be an INTJ, what they call a 'Mastermind'. ROFL! > > LOL. That's the typical engineer type, ie, the typical geek. Are you > a geek? :) I'm most emphatically not a geek. I don't care about how computers or other things work, just as long as they *do* work when I need them. SignatureMarina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki >> LOL. That's the typical engineer type, ie, the typical geek. Are you >> a geek? :) > I'm most emphatically not a geek. I don't care about how computers or > other things work, just as long as they *do* work when I need them. Well, it's good to know that important, Mastermind INTJ skills are being put to uses other than just building and maintaining computers! :) Joyce > > I seem to be an INTJ, what they call a 'Mastermind'. ROFL! > >LOL. That's the typical engineer type, ie, the typical geek. Are you >a geek? :) > >Joyce I was rated as an ISTP, "Engineer", and it certainly fits. And, yes, I qualify as a computer geek. SignatureJohn F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria > I was rated as an ISTP, "Engineer", and it certainly fits. And, yes, > I qualify as a computer geek. I just took the test and it said I was ISTP too, though I don't think it fits me so much. An engineer I'm not. Computer geek neither. ;-) ------ Krista > > I was rated as an ISTP, "Engineer", and it certainly fits. And, yes, > > I qualify as a computer geek. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ------ > Krista Female ISTPs are biker chicks. ISTPs are almost NEVER fat. Male or female, they're often rail skinny like a wire. ESTPs are the ones that are always fat. CLASSIC ISTPs: Clint Eastwood (the mould for ISTPs), Chuck Yeager, Neil Armstrong, Charles Lindbergh, Howard Hughes, Harrison Ford, James Dean, American Indians in general (that sounds horribly bigoted but WTF I'm a hardcore Spock-like T) > > > I was rated as an ISTP, "Engineer", and it certainly fits. And, yes, > > > I qualify as a computer geek. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > James Dean, American Indians in general (that sounds horribly bigoted > but WTF I'm a hardcore Spock-like T) Hee. I can see this, though I do try *very* hard to suppress the Dirty Harry side of my personality. ------ Krista Marina had something important to tell us on Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:14:03 +0300: >> I found a site online to take the test. I just took it and it seems >> that I am ESTJ. You can check it yourself at >> http://similarminds.com/myers-briggs-jung.html > >LOL! I seem to be an INTJ, what they call a 'Mastermind'. ROFL! Hmmm... interesting. My first and last scores are pretty much fixed. I'm as introverted as they come and I ALWAYS come out on the 'P' side... but my middle two scores are highly subject to change. I think it depends on who's doing the test or the phase of the moon! lol SignatureKaren AKA Kajikit Here kitty kitty kitty... visit http://www.catslaves.org! Come and visit my part of the web: Kajikit's Corner: http://www.kajikitscorner.com Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating Ample Aussies Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ampleaussies/ I'm either INTP or INTJ depending on what test I take. I'm always close to 55 percent one (P or J) and 45 percent the other....so that's pretty close... Basically, I don't like people, I go with my gut, I get things done whether or not someone doesn't like it, and I'm hard to pin down on the last one ;) --Fil > > I found a site online to take the test. I just took it and it seems > > that I am ESTJ. You can check it yourself at > > http://similarminds.com/myers-briggs-jung.html > > LOL! I seem to be an INTJ, what they call a 'Mastermind'. ROFL! Marina, that's me, too :-) Mastermind I am not!!! Deb. Signaturehttp://www.scientific-art.com "He looked a fierce and quarrelsome cat, but claw he never would; He only bit the ones he loved, because they tasted good." S. Greenfield |
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