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My Fight With a Friend Last Night [Not OT]

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CatNipped - 03 Jan 2006 16:43 GMT
I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a woman
who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been through
*everything* together.  She lives in Mandeville, LA now, and I live in
Houston, TX, but until I moved to Houston in 1991 we were inseparable.

I always knew she wasn't a cat person - not even a pet person.  Her
interests are just in people not animals (so maybe she should have known
enough about me to know what my reactions would be before she dropped the
bombshell she did last night!!?).

A while back, she adopted two cats, a male and a female.  First of all, she
didn't get them fixed right away (even turned down my offer of the money to
have them fixed), so naturally she ended up with a pregnant cat.  She
refused to have the cat aborted/spayed, so I gritted my teeth and helped her
get through how to care for a pregnant queen and told her how to find *good*
slaves for the kittens.

At around that same time, she mentioned saving up the money to get them
fixed and *have them declawed*.  I spent an hour and a half on the phone
telling her why she shouldn't have them declawed and giving her realistic
alternatives.  We had several phone conversations after that with me
reiterating the reasons why cats shouldn't be declawed.  I gave her all the
grisly details of what declawing entails and told her that most civilized
countries around the world have made declawing illegal because it's so cruel
and barbaric.

I had a cat declawed many years ago when a landlord told me I had to.  I
didn't know then what it involved (thinking it was something like a super
nail clip).  I told her how sick and guilty I felt about it after it was
done, when I found out just what I had done to my fur-baby.  I told her that
I still haven't forgiven that vet for not telling me what it involved before
he did it, and I still haven't forgiven myself for not doing the research
beforehand and it still makes me literally sick to my stomach to think about
it.

She called me up last night to tell me that the male was having problems,
shaking his paw.  I couldn't figure out why being neutered should affect his
paws until she told me she had them declawed at the same time, even after
all I'd told her.

I lost it and told her again, explicitly, just exactly what she had done to
her cats and *WHY* they were still in pain even after a month.  I said that
since I'd told her all this over and over *BEFORE* she had it done, she
didn't even have the excuse of ignorance, just insensitivity, selfishness,
and cruelty.

She started whining that I shouldn't try to make her feel guilty about it
because her leather furniture had been ruined by the cats and someone had
given her a like-new leather sofa so she "had"* to declaw the cats, she
didn't have a choice.  I told her that I didn't want to hear it because,
cats (or any living creature)  mean more to me than some inanimate object.

I did get her to promise to spend the money to take them back to the vet to
check on regrowth/ingrown claws - I told her that it's possible the vet
botched the job (she said he was the best vet in town, highly recommended -
I told her good vets don't declaw cats).  What's really depressing me is
that I *KNOW* she's going to "get rid of" the cats as soon as they start
biting or having litter box problems.

We ended the conversation when she hung up on me.  And to tell the truth, I
feel worse about what her cats are going through than having ended a 45 year
friendship.  I'm just glad I have friends here who understand why that is.

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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

NMR - 03 Jan 2006 16:53 GMT
You can always tell how a person is by the way the tip their waiter, treat
their animals or if they open the car door for you.   I won't say I am sorry
for your loss of your friend Cat since you are more worried about the cats
than her which you should be.   I have gotten rid of  a long time friend
when he told me why are you spending some much money on the cat it is just a
cat not your child ( rumble was sick ).  I escorted him by the back of the
shirt and one arm tossed him out the door and told him never to come back
again.

You at least know who you friends really are

{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}  for you

>I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a
>woman who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been through
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> year friendship.  I'm just glad I have friends here who understand why
> that is.
Christine K. - 03 Jan 2006 17:05 GMT
Poor kitties. If your friend never was a pet person, she shouldn't have
got the cats in the first place. Maybe a stuffed one would have
sufficed, it wouldn't claw her precious sofa... :/

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Christine in Vantaa, Finland
christal63 (at) gmail (dot) com
photos: http://photos.yahoo.com/christal63
photos: http://community.webshots.com/user/chkr63

CatNipped - 03 Jan 2006 18:02 GMT
> Poor kitties. If your friend never was a pet person, she shouldn't have
> got the cats in the first place. Maybe a stuffed one would have sufficed,
> it wouldn't claw her precious sofa... :/

Really!  It made me cry last night when she told me this...  She also has a
d*g, so she has to keep the cat's food on top of the dryer.  She described
how the male cat jumped up and down to land on his hind legs so that his
front feet didn't have to absorb the force of his landing!  :<

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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Adrian - 03 Jan 2006 18:19 GMT
>> Poor kitties. If your friend never was a pet person, she shouldn't
>> have got the cats in the first place. Maybe a stuffed one would have
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> legs so that his front feet didn't have to absorb the force of his
> landing!  :<

I think if I ever came face to face with someone who was resposible for that
kind of suffering, I would find it very difficult to refrain from hitting
them. :-(
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Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

NMR - 03 Jan 2006 18:28 GMT
Agree with Adrian even though I have been kill filed by him

500 dollar  6 month on probation ( the cost of committing battery in
Florida )   I find it worth to nail a animal abuser  my time and money would
be well spent

>>> Poor kitties. If your friend never was a pet person, she shouldn't
>>> have got the cats in the first place. Maybe a stuffed one would have
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> kind of suffering, I would find it very difficult to refrain from hitting
> them. :-(
Adrian - 03 Jan 2006 18:32 GMT
> Agree with Adrian even though I have been kill filed by him

You were, but I emptied my killfile for the new year. ;-)
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Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

NMR - 03 Jan 2006 21:46 GMT
>> Agree with Adrian even though I have been kill filed by him
>
> You were, but I emptied my killfile for the new year. ;-)
Christina Websell - 03 Jan 2006 20:01 GMT
>>> Poor kitties. If your friend never was a pet person, she shouldn't
>>> have got the cats in the first place. Maybe a stuffed one would have
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> kind of suffering, I would find it very difficult to refrain from hitting
> them. :-(

I've made it very clear in the past how I feel about declawing for
convenience, rather than for a genuine medical reason - which is not too
common.  It's a cruel mutilation.
In your position, Lori, I too would have an ex-friend.   I rarely fall out
with my friends, and have only done so once over racism which couldn't be
resolved after discussion, somewhat like this case.  Your friend went ahead
anyway.   My friends continued to be very racist.
Just like yourself, we'd been friends for many years - and the subject
hadn't arisen before.   I asked myself if I really wanted to call these
people my friends who had these views.  I decided I didn't.  IMHO you can do
without her because you'll never respect her again same as me.
I was sorry in one way, but not in another, you will know what I mean.

Tweed
rising from her sick bed to post
(nothing too serious, very bad feverish cold with extreme productive
coughing - gross)  Very fluey.
Adrian - 03 Jan 2006 20:15 GMT
>>>> Poor kitties. If your friend never was a pet person, she shouldn't
>>>> have got the cats in the first place. Maybe a stuffed one would
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> (nothing too serious, very bad feverish cold with extreme productive
> coughing - gross)  Very fluey.

Purrs for a quick recovery, Tweed. I'm very glad to hear you ditched your
racist, ex-friend.
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Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

CatNipped - 03 Jan 2006 20:32 GMT
>>>> Poor kitties. If your friend never was a pet person, she shouldn't
>>>> have got the cats in the first place. Maybe a stuffed one would have
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> (nothing too serious, very bad feverish cold with extreme productive
> coughing - gross)  Very fluey.

I know *exactly* what you mean.

Mega get-well purrs are heading your way.
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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Adrian - 03 Jan 2006 18:05 GMT
<snip>
> We ended the conversation when she hung up on me.  And to tell the
> truth, I feel worse about what her cats are going through than having
> ended a 45 year friendship.  I'm just glad I have friends here who
> understand why that is.

It doesn't matter how long you've known her, you're better off without her.
I could never tollerate someone as selfish and cruel as that, let alone be
friends.
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Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
A House is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

cybercat - 03 Jan 2006 18:21 GMT
> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.

Well, I may be a bad one to ask, but I sure would not want to keep a friend
like that.
CatNipped - 03 Jan 2006 18:27 GMT
>> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.
>
> Well, I may be a bad one to ask, but I sure would not want to keep a
> friend
> like that.

You're right.  It's just weird that this had not come up before now (well,
seeing as she never had cats before now maybe not so weird).  I guess I'm
not a very good judge of character to not have picked up on the streak of
selfishness and cruelty before now.

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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

cybercat - 03 Jan 2006 19:04 GMT
> >> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> not a very good judge of character to not have picked up on the streak of
> selfishness and cruelty before now.

Lori, your friend's ugly nature does not reflect badly on you in any way.
I had a similar situation with one of my grade-school friends. Over the
years, she has just become a hard, resentful b*tch. I tried to overlook
all the signs that she had become someone I do not want to know, but
it became impossible. The first thing that changed was that she stopped
being happy for the successes of her friends and started being envious
and competing. (I know some so-called "friends" do this all the time, but
that's not what I call friendship.) Then she began being outright cruel and
backbiting to a mutual friend, for no other reason than to put her down.
I have no time or space in my life for that kind of thing. so there went
decades-long friendship. However, I am better off rid of it.
CatNipped - 03 Jan 2006 19:17 GMT
>> >> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I have no time or space in my life for that kind of thing. so there went
> decades-long friendship. However, I am better off rid of it.

You're right.

I'll tell you something, over the last couple of years, especially the last
6 months, I've had to do a lot of learning and growing up to do.  I've been
through a lot in my life - married to an abusive alcoholic, having to learn
how to be independent and support myself and my children, having to learn
how to forgive and move on, etc.  But I guess just when you think you know
it all, something comes along to show you just how ignorant you really are.

In the face of the enormity of the recent natural disasters - from the
tsunami, to Katrina, to Rita - I've learned what raw survival means (and how
spoiled I've really been), and I've learned how to let people help my family
(that one was a hard one for me because I fought so hard after my divorce to
be totally self-sufficient), and I've learned how kind and generous my
fellow humans can be (as well as how base and disgusting they can be).

One of the "lessons" that has been reinforced over and over again, is what's
*really* important in life - and it *AIN'T* "things".

I was forced to re-examine this "friendship" last night, and I decided it
wasn't a good thing - or something I wanted in my life any more.

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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Enfilade - 05 Jan 2006 02:02 GMT
> > I have no time or space in my life for that kind of thing. so there went
> > decades-long friendship. However, I am better off rid of it.

I feel ill when I consider how Dylan's Nana and Papa gave their two
cats to a shelter because Papa was tired of the "mess" and "Work" they
caused (he never wanted them to begin with) and Nana couldn't do it all
on her own.

I sincerely hope Pancake and Cookie got new home(s) where they will be
loved.

(They didn't tell us they were doing this, or we might've taken Pancake
and cookie...but then we wouldn't have adopted Nox, and maybe not
Smokey either.)

-Mary
CatNipped - 05 Jan 2006 02:21 GMT
>> > I have no time or space in my life for that kind of thing. so there
>> > went
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> -Mary

I just really don't understand people who can have a pet be "just an
animal".  To me adopting a pet is like adopting a child - or even more
responsibility than that since children grow up to take care of themselves
eventually.  My cats are my furry little children and I can't see giving
them up for any reason on earth (I would walk out of my  home and live in a
tenement if it meant that's the only way I could keep my cats).  And I can't
understand mutilating them because they scratched the furniture - that would
be like cutting off a child's fingers because they left chocolate finger
prints on my white divan (if I *had* a white divan).

Hell, since the grandchildren have been here they have (1) painted their
fingernails on my cherry-wood roll-top secretary's desk (and then tried to
wipe up the spilled nail polish with nail polish remover (!!!!!), (2) jumped
on top of my insulated spa cover and cracked it in 4 different places, (3)
put huge gouges in the table top of my formal dining room set during the
construction of a school project, (4) spilled blueberry cobbler juice on my
sofa, (5) thumb-tacked about a thousand teenie-bopper-heart-throb posters
over the wallpaper in their bedroom, (6) spilled chocolate syrup all over
the living room carpet, (7 - 10,000) a whole lot of other things that
children just do because they're children!  Guess what!!??  I'm going to be
crying in my nice, neat house when they're gone and wishing they were back
here destroying some more of my "things"!!!

The "things" in my house are there for the convenience of the living beings
residing here.  They get broken, dirty, or just worn out and we eventually
throw them out and get new "things".  We *DON'T* alter the living beings for
the convenience of the things!!!!

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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Monique Y. Mudama - 05 Jan 2006 23:10 GMT
> Hell, since the grandchildren have been here they have (1) painted
> their fingernails on my cherry-wood roll-top secretary's desk (and
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> we eventually throw them out and get new "things".  We *DON'T* alter
> the living beings for the convenience of the things!!!!

So right, Lori, so right.

Although I would be going nuts if I had kids in my house doing all
that stuff =P

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

CatNipped - 05 Jan 2006 23:32 GMT
>> Hell, since the grandchildren have been here they have (1) painted
>> their fingernails on my cherry-wood roll-top secretary's desk (and
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Although I would be going nuts if I had kids in my house doing all
> that stuff =P

As I write this DH is outside duct-taping the styrofoam insides of the spa
cover!  ;>  As for the other stuff - they can't be fixed, but that's the
sort of things that happen when you have children in the house, even
extremely well-behaved children like my granddaughters.  When you're a
parent you usually have stuff that's not top-notch because of this and just
wait for the children to leave the nest before buying nice stuff.

Hugs,

CatNipped
Monique Y. Mudama - 05 Jan 2006 23:43 GMT
>> Although I would be going nuts if I had kids in my house doing all
>> that stuff =P
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> not top-notch because of this and just wait for the children to
> leave the nest before buying nice stuff.

I don't have much that's particularly nice or fancy, and I don't do
the best job taking care of what I have, but it's still mine and I
hate the thought of someone else messing it up =P

I think it's an inherited trait.  My father often uses the saying,
"God bless those who leave my stuff alone," and my grandmother
actually has it on a cross-stitch hanging on her wall!

(I think it *is* different when you're a parent, or grandparent.  I
know I grew up with a couch that had a big orange koolaid stain on
it.)

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

badwilson - 05 Jan 2006 02:39 GMT
>>> I have no time or space in my life for that kind of thing. so there
>>> went decades-long friendship. However, I am better off rid of it.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> -Mary

I've got a friend who's parents had his cat declawed when he and his
wife were away on a trip and the parents were cat sitting.  Friend and
wife returned and the deed had been done and the parents had the gall to
be offended because they weren't grateful for the "free gift that would
save their furniture"!!!!  The friend was insanely mad about it but
didn't disown his parents, so the wife divorced him.  Sad all around, no
winners in that story :-(
Signature

Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

Cheryl - 05 Jan 2006 02:54 GMT
> I've got a friend who's parents had his cat declawed when he and
> his wife were away on a trip and the parents were cat sitting.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> parents, so the wife divorced him.  Sad all around, no winners
> in that story :-(

Sad story. It's hard to disown your parents, though I know some who
have. But to lose a spouse in the process, just horrible. I'm so
sorry for your friend and his cat. :(

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Cheryl

badwilson - 05 Jan 2006 03:02 GMT
>> I've got a friend who's parents had his cat declawed when he and
>> his wife were away on a trip and the parents were cat sitting.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> have. But to lose a spouse in the process, just horrible. I'm so
> sorry for your friend and his cat. :(

Well, this was over 10 years ago and they had other issues in their
marriage too.  And yes, it would have been very hard for him to disown
the parents because his older sister had been killed in a car crash when
she was 16, so the family had had a lot of tragedy.  From what I gather,
it's after the sister died that the parents because extremely
controlling of the remaining 2 sons, and they still are even though the
youngest son is now 35.
I guess it doesn't help that the parents are German, which is something
I can definitely relate to!  Controlling German parents...who ever heard
of such a thing??? ;-)
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Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

JBHajos - 05 Jan 2006 11:51 GMT
> Controlling German parents...who ever heard
>of such a thing??? ;-)
   Hand raised!!! :)  (Though it really wasn't funny.)

    Jeanne
Jeanne Hajos
spamguard:( u is i, and not is net)
===
"Anger improves nothing except the arch of a cat's back."
                                         --- Coleman Cox
My SETI team:
Pamela  Shirk - 06 Jan 2006 00:59 GMT
\
> I guess it doesn't help that the parents are German, which is something I
> can definitely relate to!  Controlling German parents...who ever heard of
> such a thing??? ;-)

I wouldn't know about that,  nope.  not one bit.

Pam S. who's parents once planned on her living with them and taking care of
them in their old age.  I planned on running away from home as soon as I
turned 16, but circumstances changed and I didn't have to after all
CatNipped - 05 Jan 2006 03:11 GMT
>>>> I have no time or space in my life for that kind of thing. so there
>>>> went decades-long friendship. However, I am better off rid of it.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> disown his parents, so the wife divorced him.  Sad all around, no winners
> in that story :-(

That's sad, but I can understand the wife's point of view.  Had my MIL done
something like that I would have had a hard time stopping myself from
whupping her @$$ no matter *HOW* much I love my husband!
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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 05 Jan 2006 03:24 GMT
> That's sad, but I can understand the wife's point of view.  Had my MIL done
> something like that I would have had a hard time stopping myself from
> whupping her @$$ no matter *HOW* much I love my husband!

I don't really understand why she would divorce her husband because
he didn't disown his parents. I'm sorry, but that sounds unreasonably
controlling of *her*.

I would understand if she said she never wanted to see his parents
again. And of course, that she would never allow them near their pets
again. If he couldn't support her in those things, then I can understand
her being angry and unwilling to live with that.

But a person's relationship with their parents really is their own
issue to work out, and it's not for a spouse to tell him how he should
handle that. I think it's wrong to try to drive a wedge between your
spouse and his/her parents, just because you don't like them, even if
you're perfectly justified in not liking them (as she is here).

These parents sound really horrible, but to try to coerce the son into
dealing with it in a specific way (ie, "you must disown them") is
stepping over the bounds of reasonable boundaries between people.

But then, Britta said they had other problems, so maybe this was the
final straw...

Joyce
badwilson - 05 Jan 2006 03:41 GMT
>> That's sad, but I can understand the wife's point of view.  Had my
>> MIL done something like that I would have had a hard time stopping
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Joyce

Well, like I said in the other post, they had other issues in their
marriage as well.  It's just that it happened shortly after the declaw
incident and was a contributing factor.  I think she was generally fed
up with his interfering and controlling parents.  I never knew her
because this happened before I knew this friend.  My girlfriend is
married to his younger brother and suffers constantly because of these
parents.  Personally, I wouldn't put up with it.
My parents can be quite controlling as well, but I've dealt with the
problem by moving further and further away ;-)
Signature

Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

Monique Y. Mudama - 05 Jan 2006 23:07 GMT
> I think she was generally fed up with his interfering and controlling
> parents.

I can soooo understand this.  My first boyfriend's parents drove me
nuts, and he wasn't bothered by it at all.

Three things I will never forget:

His mom telling me that she always made sure he woke up on time, so
now that he was living with me, I would have to carry on that job.
(Yeah, right.  I'm not his mom.)

His dad walking into our apartment, noticing some statements on the
kitchen table, and picking them up to peruse them.  They were my
credit card statements.  I couldn't believe he'd do that.

Getting a phone call from his dad.  Apparently my bf still had his
credit card statements mailed to home.  The dad couldn't get in touch
with bf (away at college), so called me.  I told him I couldn't get in
touch any better than he could, and that anyway it was the bf's
responsibility to pay attention to his bills.  "But Monique, you have to
worry about these things, because his credit scores will affect you when
you're buing a house together."  (That was the one that finally opened
my eyes.  I realized that if I stayed with this guy, I would have to
play babysitter for the rest of my life.)

Gee, I wonder how he ever ended up so dependent on others to take care
of him?  *groan*

So there are two things to consider.  One, having a s.o. with
controlling/interfering parents is a huge drain.  Two, if the parents
are like this, the kid is pretty likely to be screwed up and overly
reliant on others to take care of him/her.

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

CatNipped - 05 Jan 2006 23:56 GMT
>> I think she was generally fed up with his interfering and controlling
>> parents.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> are like this, the kid is pretty likely to be screwed up and overly
> reliant on others to take care of him/her.

I agree.  Parents who don't teach their children to be self-reliant are
committing child abuse!

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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Monique Y. Mudama - 06 Jan 2006 00:09 GMT
> I agree.  Parents who don't teach their children to be self-reliant
> are committing child abuse!

Yeah.  Too bad you can't turn parents in to the CPS for smothering (of
the metaphorical kind).

Signature

monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Jo Firey - 05 Jan 2006 04:10 GMT
> I've got a friend who's parents had his cat declawed when he and his wife
> were away on a trip and the parents were cat sitting.  Friend and wife
> returned and the deed had been done and the parents had the gall to be
> offended because they weren't grateful for the "free gift that would save
> their furniture"!!!!

And I thought my Aunt being upset with my Dad for taking her son to get a
haircut was enough of a family trauma.  (The kid was three years old and had
blond ringlets down to his shoulders)  Everyone did get over that one
eventually at least.

But I can imagine real parents like that.  So sure of their own opinions and
so sure they must be right that any decision they make must not only be
accepted but accepted with gratitude.  Shudder.

Jo
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 05 Jan 2006 12:13 GMT
> And I thought my Aunt being upset with my Dad for taking her son to get a
> haircut was enough of a family trauma.  (The kid was three years old and had
> blond ringlets down to his shoulders)  Everyone did get over that one
> eventually at least.

Well, yeah - hair, unlike a cat's claws, does grow back.

Joyce
Wayne Mitchell - 05 Jan 2006 14:19 GMT
> > And I thought my Aunt being upset with my Dad for taking her son to get a
> > haircut was enough of a family trauma.  (The kid was three years old and had
> > blond ringlets down to his shoulders)  Everyone did get over that one
> > eventually at least.
>
>Well, yeah - hair, unlike a cat's claws, does grow back.

Ah, but at that age it may never be the same.  My Dad was a
redhead, and at age 3 he had long, fiery red ringlets which had
never been cut and which his family very much prized.  People in
those days didn't have cameras handy to record family events, so
they made a date to take him and have a studio picture taken
before he got a first haircut.

Unfortunately, they talked a little too openly about the plan to
give him a haircut, and two days before they were to go to town
and get the picture taken he sat down with a pair of scissors
and helpfully started the cutting job himself.  So we have no
pictorial record of those startling ringlets -- a fact which he
himself has never, to anyone's knowledge, bemoaned, though his
older sister remained heart-broken on that score to her dying
day.

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Wayne M
(indulged by Will and Heidi)

idontmind@gmail.com - 06 Jan 2006 00:01 GMT
> I've got a friend who's parents had his cat declawed when he and his
> wife were away on a trip and the parents were cat sitting.  Friend and
> wife returned and the deed had been done and the parents had the gall to
> be offended because they weren't grateful for the "free gift that would
> save their furniture"!!!!  The friend was insanely mad about it but
> didn't disown his parents, so the wife divorced him.

They couldn't have had a very strong marriage if they divorced over
this.  That's just insane.
-L.
badwilson - 06 Jan 2006 08:18 GMT
>> I've got a friend who's parents had his cat declawed when he and his
>> wife were away on a trip and the parents were cat sitting.  Friend
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> this.  That's just insane.
> -L.

Well, like I said in a few other posts, they had other issues as well
but from what I hear it was mostly about the fact that his parents were
totally controlling and interfering and he kept letting it happen.  Not
insane to me.
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Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

-L. - 06 Jan 2006 09:01 GMT
> Well, like I said in a few other posts, they had other issues as well
> but from what I hear it was mostly about the fact that his parents were
> totally controlling and interfering and he kept letting it happen.  Not
> insane to me.

Oh, well, that's different than getting divorced over a fight about the
parents declawing the cat and him not disowning them because of it.  I
thought from what you had written that it was just one incident.
-L.
badwilson - 07 Jan 2006 08:09 GMT
>> Well, like I said in a few other posts, they had other issues as well
>> but from what I hear it was mostly about the fact that his parents
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> it.  I thought from what you had written that it was just one
> incident. -L.

The declawing incident was the straw that broke the camel's back, I
guess.
Signature

Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

Nanny - 03 Jan 2006 18:43 GMT
I really hope that this is the end of a "beautiful"friendship.........

Nanny

>I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a
>woman who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been through
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> year friendship.  I'm just glad I have friends here who understand why
> that is.
Helen Miles - 03 Jan 2006 20:31 GMT
> She called me up last night to tell me that the male was having problems,
> shaking his paw.  I couldn't figure out why being neutered should affect his
> paws until she told me she had them declawed at the same time, even after
> all I'd told her.///

Many, many purrs and prayers that the little lad can recover from the
cruel injustice done to him. :o( This has made me so sad.

And as for your good for nothing ex-friend - words can't describe what I
think of her and they'd be too crude to repeat on this newsgroup anyway.
You're better off not having anything to do with such a self centered
bitch.

Helen M
sriddles@aol.com - 03 Jan 2006 20:33 GMT
> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a woman
> who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been through
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>
> CatNipped

You shouldn't feel bad, because there was nothing else you could do.
You can't really compromise your principles for the sake of friendship,
not principles that you feel so strongly about.
My daughter homed a foster kitten with her mother-in-law, who actually
signed the no-declaw/spay contract. She declawed the kitten anyway. She
reacted like you did.

Sherry
CatNipped - 03 Jan 2006 20:45 GMT
>> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a
>> woman
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> Sherry

You're right.  What's surprising to me is how *NOT* bad I feel about ending
the friendship!  What I'm feeling really badly about is how those poor cats
must be feeling.

What's pissed me off so bad is that I told her beforehand, in detail, what a
horrible mutilation this is since cats walk on their claws - that this in
fact will end up crippling them with arthritis - and she still chose to do
that rather than using one of the other dozen alternatives I gave her.

You know what's even worse?  She's a nurse!  She kept saying, "It's been a
month, they should be over this by now."  I told her that declawing is
equivalent to cutting off a person's fingertips at the first knuckle and
forcing that person to constantly support their weight with the stubs
despite the pain - did she really think it would be all better this soon???!
And she makes them jump up to the dryer in order to eat!!!?????!!!!

ARGH!  With "friends" like this....

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CatNipped

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dopekitty - 04 Jan 2006 22:01 GMT
>>I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a woman
>>who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been through
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> Sherry

I once homed a kitten with a lady i had been on a friendly acquaintance
with for years, only for her to neglect the poor thing.  I stole him
back and tried to help him out, but he died due to a worm infestation
that was already so far advanced that deworming him had no effect. I
haven't spoken to the bitch since.

that kitty was Possum's littermate, Ozzy.  I still have pics of him
floating around on the net somewhere, probably that cat site that used
to be free to put your pets on but then started charging (would have
been about four yrs ago october that he passed away)

Kristy
Jo Firey - 03 Jan 2006 20:34 GMT
>I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a
>woman who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been through
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> year friendship.  I'm just glad I have friends here who understand why
> that is.

She can't have half a brain cell if she didn't realize just how badly she
has been abusing your friendship.

I truly hate someone who will make off the wall decisions, and then present
them to an acquaintance that they know will disapprove, and try to force
them to agree with their outrageous nonsense.  (OK you touched on a MIL
nerve)

In addition to cruelty to cats she is also an egomaniac, insensitive, and a
conflict junky.  No matter how long you have known her.
Jo
Wayne Mitchell - 04 Jan 2006 03:14 GMT
>She can't have half a brain cell if she didn't realize just how badly she
>has been abusing your friendship.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>In addition to cruelty to cats she is also an egomaniac, insensitive, and a
>conflict junky.  No matter how long you have known her.

That's very true, Jo, and I didn't really see it when I first
read Lori's account.  I was too busy trying to understand how
anyone could have such a complete lack of empathy for the cats,
but now you point it out, she also displayed an amazing lack of
respect for friend and friendship.  She essentially tried to
bludgeon Lori into signing off on what she had done and
absorbing some of the guilt, even though she knew full well how
Lori felt.

It's very sad, Lori.  I agree that there is not much chance for
you to continue this friendship.  And that means that you have
to let go of part of your life.  That will take some healing.

Signature

Wayne M.

sandra - 03 Jan 2006 20:36 GMT
>I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a
>woman who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been through
>*everything* together.  She lives in Mandeville, LA now, and I live in
>Houston, TX, but until I moved to Houston in 1991 we were inseparable.

At least youstood up for what you believe is right. It is odd indeed how
some people regard pets, have strange ideas of what they should or should
not do and justify cruel treatment. Perhaps she will come to realise her
mistake, but too late for the poor creatures in her care.

Sandra
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 03 Jan 2006 22:11 GMT
> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking
> about a woman who has been my best friend since the 5th grade -
> we've been through *everything* together...

CN, one way to look at this is that you've *outgrown* this friend. Yes,
45 years is a long time for a friendship, but it's also a long time in
a person's individual life. People change and grow apart. It might have
been a wonderful friendship for a long time, but your values are in
serious conflict now, and you wouldn't be able to respect her anymore.

You might not be feeling it right now because you're angry at her, but
this is a big loss, so I hope you won't deprive yourself of the chance
to mourn, if you find that you absolutely cannot have a relationship with
her anymore. Loss of respect for someone you loved is still loss.

{{{Lori}}}

{{{Lori's ex-friend's cats}}}

Joyce
CatNipped - 03 Jan 2006 22:15 GMT
> > I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking
> > about a woman who has been my best friend since the 5th grade -
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Joyce

You're right.  I hadn't thought of that because I'm so angry right now.
Also, since we've been "long distance" friends for so long it may be a while
before the loss sets in.

This is someone who was there during the good times (the birth of my
children), and the bad times (my divorce) - so I have no double I'll miss
her.  But on the other hand I can't see remaining close to someone who is so
callous and uncaring of another creature's pain.

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CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk - 03 Jan 2006 22:38 GMT
Man, am I glad it's illegal in the UK so I don't meet people (or vets)
that are doing this.  Just out of interest (and laziness for not doing
research) - are people in the US campaigning to make it illegal?  I
don't mean PETA, I mean groups or individuals boycotting vets,
leafleting etc.  Is there a body I could write to (that licences vets
or something) - I'm sorry for being too lazy to look it up at the
moment, first day back at work etc. - I will understand if no-one tells
me but I'd really like to write to someone, I know it doesn't probably
make much difference, but every little helps (and at least I won't get
arrested for writing a letter!)

Marcia
CatNipped - 03 Jan 2006 22:53 GMT
> Man, am I glad it's illegal in the UK so I don't meet people (or vets)
> that are doing this.  Just out of interest (and laziness for not doing
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Marcia

I believe a county in California may have enacted a law making this illegal.
Other than that it's a matter of grass-roots education.

The problem with getting anything done legally in the states is that
legislation has to be done practically county by county - so you're fighting
the same fight thousands of times.

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CatNipped

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jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 03 Jan 2006 23:03 GMT
> I believe a county in California may have enacted a law making
> this illegal.

West Hollywood, California. Yay, go West Hollywood!! :)

Joyce
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 03 Jan 2006 23:05 GMT
>  > I believe a county in California may have enacted a law making
>  > this illegal.

> West Hollywood, California. Yay, go West Hollywood!! :)

Which is a city, actually, not a county. Whoops.

Joyce
Gracecat - 03 Jan 2006 23:34 GMT
> > I believe a county in California may have enacted a law making
> > this illegal.
>
> West Hollywood, California. Yay, go West Hollywood!! :)
>
> Joyce

Smartest ones so far....

I didn't mean to imply that declawing shouldn't be illegal. I vehemently
disagree with the practice. But as long as it's between a cat that can
actually walk on it's front paws or one that can't due to a botched
surgery... I'd rather know capable vets are still doing it. Perhaps
lecturing severely, covertly sending the person's name to the local shelters
for blacklisting etc

I'm with others, it was time to end the friendship
Grace
Richard Miller - 04 Jan 2006 18:11 GMT
>I believe a county in California may have enacted a law making this illegal.
>Other than that it's a matter of grass-roots education.

Kinky Friedman stood for Governor of Texas: the banning of declawing was
one of his issues:

http://www.bibliofemme.com/news/2005/050205.shtml
Signature

Cathi

NMR - 04 Jan 2006 18:49 GMT
If he don't win there send him to Florida  we could get him those votes just
from the shelter and rescue workers
>>I believe a county in California may have enacted a law making this
>>illegal.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.bibliofemme.com/news/2005/050205.shtml
NMR - 03 Jan 2006 23:04 GMT
No Americans can be very stupid and this is coming from a very proud
American.   If something is bad not matter what it is and it is outlawed.
There will be some idiot person or group that would stand up and say it is
their right to have it even though it could kill them or endanger the
family.

Just to let you know how bad it is a convicted child rapist and murder has
more rights than the victims now think how it is for the animals.   I had to
fight tooth and nail with several lawyers to get the state attorney to even
charge the person who threw my furball Rumble out a moving vehicle.  I took
8 months to get them to charge him with felony animal cruelty instead of
unsupervised probation.

My vets tells people how to one way to determine a good vet.  First ask the
question do you declaw if he says yes for non medical reasons walk out of
the office and don't look back.

I took Katrina disaster and what happened to all those animals for someone
to come up with the idea to have a law that says you can take your pet with
you to a disaster shelter.  How many years did It take for them to realize
that it was needed.  How long have hurricanes been recorded and the coastal
area became really populated.

Currently I know of no movement  to stop declawing but there is a push for
educating people on declawing

Sorry for the rant  it just burns me up that this craps happens every day
and nothing is done

People here is something we all might do
http://www.ipetitions.com/index.html

> Man, am I glad it's illegal in the UK so I don't meet people (or vets)
> that are doing this.  Just out of interest (and laziness for not doing
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Marcia
Dan M - 04 Jan 2006 00:51 GMT
> My vets tells people how to one way to determine a good vet.  First ask the
> question do you declaw if he says yes for non medical reasons walk out of
> the office and don't look back.

I'd recommend investigating just a little further. One of the vets I used
to go to would do declaws, but only after explaining to the customer how
abusive and cruel it is. His reasoning was that he'd rather a declaw be
done by a good vet who really cares about the animal than by a butcher who
would hurry the job and do his absolute best to help the animal recover as
well as possible.

I've actually heard him reasoning with a customer who brought her cat in
for a declaw. The lady ended up crying when she left - she had no idea how
barbaric and gruesome the surgery is. So even though he will do a declaw
if pressed, he *does* have a proper understanding of how sickening and
damaging the surgery is.
NMR - 04 Jan 2006 01:04 GMT
I  will admit I declawed my cats 20 years ago  precious ( who just passed
away ) was our last cat declawed.  My vet friend  was not graduated at that
time took me in later when he did graduated  to watch a declawing.  I cried
when I heard the cat while under sedation cry out.  I went out side and lost
my everything I had ate for 2 weeks.  NEVER AGAIN.
   I thought I was going to have to have rumble declawed due to his
scratching caused by a Phenobarbital allergy  was literally ripping his face
and fur off to the bone.  I shudder everytime I hear that word declawing

I would love to be in a motion to ban declawing

>> My vets tells people how to one way to determine a good vet.  First ask
>> the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> if pressed, he *does* have a proper understanding of how sickening and
> damaging the surgery is.
Dan M - 04 Jan 2006 01:20 GMT
> I  will admit I declawed my cats 20 years ago  precious ( who just passed
> away ) was our last cat declawed.  My vet friend  was not graduated at that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I would love to be in a motion to ban declawing

That makes 2 of us.
Helen Miles - 04 Jan 2006 01:02 GMT
> My vets tells people how to one way to determine a good vet.  First ask the
> question do you declaw if he says yes for non medical reasons walk out of
> the office and don't look back.///

When i was first looking for vets for the fur balls in the USA, I went
to interview one vet on his surgery day. He had one young cat in for
surgery and no others and that was for a declaw. Then when I went and
saw the boarding facility, he mentioned that it was unmanned from 5pm -
8am and I saw someone manhandling someones cat with gauntlets instead of
treating them gently. I walked out of there and didn't look back.

We didn't use him. It says something when your only surgery patient for
the day is a declaw.

Helen M
idontmind@gmail.com - 04 Jan 2006 10:52 GMT
> No Americans can be very stupid and this is coming from a very proud
> American.   If something is bad not matter what it is and it is outlawed.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> 8 months to get them to charge him with felony animal cruelty instead of
> unsupervised probation.

Well, this is because, under the law, animals are chattel and not
living, breathing entities worthy of protection.  Until these laws are
changed, no punishments for animal cruelty will ever fit the crime.

> My vets tells people how to one way to determine a good vet.  First ask the
> question do you declaw if he says yes for non medical reasons walk out of
> the office and don't look back.

It is extremely difficult to find vets who don't declaw unless you live
in places like W. Hollywood or San Fancisco.

> I took Katrina disaster and what happened to all those animals for someone
> to come up with the idea to have a law that says you can take your pet with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Sorry for the rant  it just burns me up that this craps happens every day
> and nothing is done

As much as people bitch and moan about PeTA and other organizations
like In Defense of Animals it is THESE organizations that get laws on
the books that work toward changing the legal status of animals.  In
the mean time, we have to fight the small battles and think about
winning the "war" in bits and pieces.  I am currently working on a bill
that will make illegal, the transportation of non-human primates across
state lines,  when the animals are being transported to be used or sold
as "pets".  While we would like to end primate "ownership" altogether,
we are unable to do so due to the huge lobby in favor of the trade in
exotics (which is a big business), so have to design laws which limit
trade in bits and pieces.  It's frustrating as hell.

-L.
sriddles@aol.com - 04 Jan 2006 16:00 GMT
> As much as people bitch and moan about PeTA and other organizations
> like In Defense of Animals it is THESE organizations that get laws on
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> -L.

The HSUS also helps a lot on a local level. When were were petitioning
to get the anti-cockfighting issue on the ballot, they were a whole lot
of help. I sort of know what you are talking about, even thought it was
on a much smaller scale with chickens. The Gamefowl industry was very
powerful and had a lot of the legislators in their pockets. But once we
*finally* got the issue on the ballots, it passed by an overwhelming
majority. Still it didn't keep them from trying all kinds of funny
stuff, that idiot Frank Shurden (everybody in PetA and HSUS knows who
he is) tried to pass legislation where the few counties whose vote
count did favor cockfighting, it could still be legal!

Sherry
-L. - 05 Jan 2006 10:47 GMT
> The HSUS also helps a lot on a local level. When were were petitioning
> to get the anti-cockfighting issue on the ballot, they were a whole lot
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> he is) tried to pass legislation where the few counties whose vote
> count did favor cockfighting, it could still be legal!

It's amazing the lengths people will go to to protect their "right" to
exploit animals.  IMO, some of the the worst are the entertainment
industry - the guys who farm out animals for film, circuses, etc.
Every time I hear someone say they are going to the crcus or seaworld,
I just cringe...
-L.
jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 05 Jan 2006 12:24 GMT
> It's amazing the lengths people will go to to protect their "right" to
> exploit animals.  IMO, some of the the worst are the entertainment
> industry - the guys who farm out animals for film, circuses, etc.

A few months ago I saw a movie in which a cat died of poisoning near
the middle of the film. That was pretty disturbing for me to see, but
I kept telling myself, "It's only a movie. It's only a movie..." I hate
seeing that kind of thing even in fiction, but at least it *is* fiction.

Or is it? The movie was made in Hungary. I have no idea what their laws
are about how to treat animals. The Humane Society certainly wouldn't be
on hand to make sure "no animals are harmed." So how do I know whether
it was real or not?

The clincher came when I read a review of that movie very recently and
the reviewer made a comment that "it looked very much like they poisoned
a cat to make their movie." Now this reviewer probably had no more inside
info than I do, but just reading that someone else suspected the same
thing I did totally triggered me. In fact, I can barely write this post,
this story is so upsetting to me.

Another movie that upset me - on a much smaller scale - was "The Adventures
of Milo and Otis". It really is an adorable movie, but it's also clear
that many shots were made of a small kitten in scary situations, and looking
very scared and upset. Floating down the river on a small raft, mewing all
the way. Dumped into a deep hole and unable to climb out. In a conflict with
a large wild bird. And so on. Maybe the kitten wasn't in any real danger,
but clearly it thought it was. And that's cruel. This movie was made in
Japan, another country where I don't know what the laws are in terms of
animal cruelty in films.

Joyce
sriddles@aol.com - 05 Jan 2006 16:01 GMT
> > The HSUS also helps a lot on a local level. When were were petitioning
> > to get the anti-cockfighting issue on the ballot, they were a whole lot
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I just cringe...
> -L.

I've always *hated* circuses. But I have a new pet peeve, and it is
becoming more prevalent around here at various local events. It's the
people who have a "wild" animal and they charge folks to have their
picture taken with it. These "events" are usually summertime things, in
extreme heat, the animal is in a little cage with straw on asphalt all
day. Even worst are the rattlesnakes. I believe their mouths are sewn
shut for the "photo opportunity."

Sherry
NMR - 04 Jan 2006 17:00 GMT
>> No Americans can be very stupid and this is coming from a very proud
>> American.   If something is bad not matter what it is and it is outlawed.
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> -L.
Here is the strange part about that it was a senator from a non hurricane
state that started the petition to make the bill.  What does that tell us
about our reps.
-L. - 05 Jan 2006 10:49 GMT
> Here is the strange part about that it was a senator from a non hurricane
> state that started the petition to make the bill.  What does that tell us
> about our reps.

Those supportive to animal right's issues are almost always Democrats
and almost always from blue states.  Surprisingly, one of the sponsors
of the bill I am working on is a Dem from TX...
-L.
Gracecat - 03 Jan 2006 23:22 GMT
> I did get her to promise to spend the money to take them back to the vet
> to check on regrowth/ingrown claws - I told her that it's possible the vet
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Well, that's not quite accurate. While I agree with your anger.... *shrug*
People are going to declaw. I can't stop that in this nation because it is
legal. I'd rather good vets that declaw in the best way possible with
minimal risk later on than taking a personal stance and sending you to a
freak who'll botch the job guaranteeing problems.

Grace
badwilson - 04 Jan 2006 02:34 GMT
This woman makes me sick.  Good riddance, you are better off without her
as a friend.  Why in the world did she get cats in the first place if
she's not a pet person?!?!?
Signature

Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about
> a woman who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> ended a 45 year friendship.  I'm just glad I have friends here who
> understand why that is.
CatNipped - 04 Jan 2006 03:13 GMT
> This woman makes me sick.  Good riddance, you are better off without her
> as a friend.  Why in the world did she get cats in the first place if
> she's not a pet person?!?!?

Her daughter is bi-polar and she had to take in her granddaughters, 13 and
15, to live with her.  They insisted they needed two cats and a dog (plus
the three of them in an apartment) and after 2 days lost interest in them
until the female got pregnant!  Then she did the typical
person-who-shouldn't-have-pets thing when she insisted the cat shouldn't be
spayed/aborted so that the girls could experience the whole "miracle of
birth" crap - blech!

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>> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about
>> a woman who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>> ended a 45 year friendship.  I'm just glad I have friends here who
>> understand why that is.
badwilson - 04 Jan 2006 03:30 GMT
>> This woman makes me sick.  Good riddance, you are better off without
>> her as a friend.  Why in the world did she get cats in the first
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> cat shouldn't be spayed/aborted so that the girls could experience
> the whole "miracle of birth" crap - blech!

So she doesn't know how to deal with kids either.  And they're not even
that young!  Most kids that age will lose interest fast because at that
age they begin to have other things on their mind.
And whatever happened to teaching kids that they can't always have what
they want?  She should have said, sorry, but there's already 3 people in
an apartment, and I'm not a pet person, and you guys are busy teenagers,
so we can't have 2 cats and a dog.  Perhaps a nice goldfish maybe?!?!
Sheesh!
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Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

jXwXeXrXmXoXnXt@sonic.net - 04 Jan 2006 03:38 GMT
> Then she did the typical person-who-shouldn't-have-pets thing when
> she insisted the cat shouldn't be spayed/aborted so that the girls
> could experience the whole "miracle of birth" crap - blech!

I see. So she doesn't want to interfere with "nature" by neutering, but
she's all too willing to have them mutilated to save her furniture. Great
priorities!

Joyce
Monique Y. Mudama - 04 Jan 2006 18:05 GMT
>> This woman makes me sick.  Good riddance, you are better off
>> without her as a friend.  Why in the world did she get cats in the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> cat shouldn't be spayed/aborted so that the girls could experience
> the whole "miracle of birth" crap - blech!

The second sentence says it all.  Children shouldn't be able to
"insist" on anything.  A guardian's job is in large part to exercise
good judgement that children inherently lack.

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monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Sam Nash - 04 Jan 2006 02:40 GMT
>I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a
>woman who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been through
>*everything* together.  She lives in Mandeville, LA now, and I live in
>Houston, TX, but until I moved to Houston in 1991 we were inseparable.

Purrs on the loss of the friendship, but I agree with you.
Sam, closely supervised by Mistletoe
Shiral - 04 Jan 2006 06:19 GMT
Poor kitties! =o(  That is definitely not an animal person!!

I totally understand being more upset about those two poor cats than
about the 45 year friendship.

But you never know... maybe she'll call you to say she was wrong, and
to apologize? Of course, the ones she really needs to make it up to are
the cats!

Melissa
Panther, Francesca and Nina

Melissa
Steve Touchstone - 04 Jan 2006 09:52 GMT
>We ended the conversation when she hung up on me.  And to tell the truth, I
>feel worse about what her cats are going through than having ended a 45 year
>friendship.  I'm just glad I have friends here who understand why that is.

I'm in agreement with what others have already said. First off, purrs
for the two cats who have been declawed.

What is truly sad is that declawing is still widely done in this
country. In fact there are veterinarians with good, even excellent
reputations, who routinely perform the precedure. To me, and I imagine
the majority in the group, these vets richly deserve to be called The
Evil Doctor (TED).

What I'm getting at is that there exists the possibility that your
friend was recommended to one of these greedy TEDs, and believed TED
rather than you. Guess what I'm saying is that there may be a
possibility that your friend did it without fully understanding what
she was doing.

Enough of playing the devil's advocate, if you are convinced she knew
what she was doing, I fully support the decision to dumping her as a
friend.  Although it's sad that you may lose a long time friend, I
can't think of a better reason than to learn that she was willing to
do this knowing how cruel it truly is. Even as I wrote the above
paragraphs, I find myself wondering if I could forgive her for going
ahead with the declawing without fully educating herself after you
presented her with your belief (which in case there's any doubt, I
fully share) that declawing is nothing short of cruelly maiming a cat
for the convenience of a human owner.
Signature

Steve Touchstone,
faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Spot
with loving memories of Rocky (RB)

stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email]
Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html
Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

-L. - 05 Jan 2006 11:15 GMT
> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a woman
> who has been my best friend since the 5th grade - we've been through
> *everything* together.  She lives in Mandeville, LA now, and I live in
> Houston, TX, but until I moved to Houston in 1991 we were inseparable.

I am sure I will be the dissenting voice, but 45 years of water under
the bridge is a LONG time.  The cats are already declawed, so there
isn't a lot you can do now but be an advocate for them.  I know it's
frustrating - I have had a similar experience with my SIL, and what it
boils down to is no matter how much educating you do, some people will
still insist that declawing is OK.  Since their vet says it's ok, they
do it.  The truth is, no matter how much evidence there is against
declawing, as long as vets promote it as a way of solving scratching
problems, it will be done.  And since she didn't heed your warnings,
the situation is pretty much done and over with, and out of your
control.

Cutting her off might "teach her a lesson" about declawing (and your
principles regarding it)  but in the process you have ended a part of
your personal history and possibly really hurt her, emotionally.  You
have to ask yourself if being "right" is worth all that. (?)  IMO,
nothing is more important in life than love and friendships, but we all
have our own sets of things we will and will not tolerate.

So my advice would be - IF you value the friendship and the history you
have shared with this person (which *is* a big IF) - to approach the
situation with the viewpoint of helping the cats NOW.  They need an
advocate because their guardian doesn't have their best interest at
heart.  What she did was selfish and cruel, but cutting off the
friendship doesn't really help the cats.

I am not sure I could cut off a friendship of 45 years over declawing.
My longest friendship is 37 years and we have been through thick and
thin together.  She is one of my touchstones - we often complete each
other's sentences, we are that close.  I have disagreed with many of
her decisions over the last 37 years, but the bottom line is, she is
responsible for her own life and her own decisions, and if there is a
higher justice, it will be served one way or another.  I can live with
that. :)  In the mean time, I just try to give advice when asked and
plant seeds when I can.  That's about all you can do, as a friend.

Just FWIW...
-L.
badwilson - 05 Jan 2006 11:35 GMT
If it were me in Lori's situation, I wouldn't be cutting her off to
teach her a lesson.  But I just couldn't be friends with her anymore.
Every time I talked to her or saw her, I would be thinking about what
she did and it would make me mad and then there would be nothing left to
talk about with her.
It's not just that she did it, it's that she did it despite Lori begging
her not to and trying to tell her how cruel it is.  If I had a friend of
45 years who is such a good and close friend, I wouldn't do it if she
felt that strongly about it.  I would trust my friend to help me find
another way.
Signature

Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

> I am sure I will be the dissenting voice, but 45 years of water under
> the bridge is a LONG time.  The cats are already declawed, so there
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Just FWIW...
> -L.
CatNipped - 05 Jan 2006 14:21 GMT
>> I may have ended a 45 year friendship last night.  I'm talking about a
>> woman
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> Just FWIW...
> -L.

I know what you mean, and I have talked to her since to make sure she really
had made the vet appointment for the cat.

I think what's disturbing me more than anything else is that she's a nurse
and *very* attuned to human suffering - both emotional and physical.  Even
if she couldn't find it in herself to extend that to another living
creature, she *had* to know how this would make me feel.  I'd described to
her how I *still* get physically sick to my stomach when I think about what
I did to my own cat many years ago.  I'm feeling that same way now because I
failed to convince her to not have this mutilation done - I want to throw up
every time I think about her cats having to jump up and down from the dryer
in order to eat and how the pain must shoot through their paws into their
legs - ugh!!!

She knows what an ailurophile I am and she has often asked me things about
her cats that even her vet didn't tell her about - so why, now, did she not
take my word over his?  I know this woman better than any other human being
on this planet and I have to say it is because of laziness.  She just didn't
want to be bothered with training the cats, or putting on soft paws, or
clipping their claws, or any of the dozens of other things I told her
beforehand that might have taken a bit of effort on her part, but left the
cats intact.  She just wanted the easy way out.  Easy for her, but
devastating for her cats.

Because of this I've just lost a great deal of respect for her.  Even if we
do end up making up, I don't think I can ever feel the same about her again.

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Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at:  http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

-L. - 05 Jan 2006 18:01 GMT
> I know what you mean, and I have talked to her since to make sure she really
> had made the vet appointment for the cat.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> if she couldn't find it in herself to extend that to another living
> creature,

Being a nurse may be why she took a vet's advice over yours.  She may
have given more creedence to his "professional" opinion <gag>.

>she *had* to know how this would make me feel.  I'd described to
> her how I *still* get physically sick to my stomach when I think about what
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> her cats that even her vet didn't tell her about - so why, now, did she not
> take my word over his?

A better questions is, why did she tell you she declawed him knowing
how you feel about it?

> I know this woman better than any other human being
> on this planet and I have to say it is because of laziness.  She just didn't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> cats intact.  She just wanted the easy way out.  Easy for her, but
> devastating for her cats.

That's it in 99% of the cases - people simply cannot be bothered to do
what it takes to keep their cats from scratching furniture.  It's pure
laziness to declaw.

> Because of this I've just lost a great deal of respect for her.  Even if we
> do end up making up, I don't think I can ever feel the same about her again.

That's understandable, and that's pretty much how I feel about my SIL.
It really makes you realize what makes people tick...
-L.
Monique Y. Mudama - 05 Jan 2006 23:18 GMT
> I am not sure I could cut off a friendship of 45 years over
> declawing.  My longest friendship is 37 years and we have been
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> try to give advice when asked and plant seeds when I can.  That's
> about all you can do, as a friend.

I was all about condemning this friend ... and then I realized that
one of my close family friends, my mother's best friend, had her cat
front declawed.

She's a cat person.  Loves cats, has always had them, and afaik this
is the first she had declawed.

Anyway, my point is, when i