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Cat Forum / Cat Anecdotes / November 2005Today Eli was laying next to me on the floor when Lily started looking in the cat flap (to make sure Eli not around) so she could come in and have a bite to eat. Eli *always* attacks her. So I hid Eli Peace Talks
Today Eli was laying next to me on the floor when Lily started looking in the cat flap (to make sure Eli not around) so she could come in and have a bite to eat. Eli *always* attacks her. So I hid Eli from her long enough to get them both inside at once, so I could have a talk with them about their fighting. I locked the cat flap right after Lily came in but in that couple of seconds they already started to fight. I whapped Eli and he scampered into the bathroom cupboard. Meanwhile Lily ran under the bed to hide. I locked Eli in the bathroom and dragged Lily, growling the whole time, out from under the bed and carried her into the bathroom, where we all had a long talk. I started off by apologizing to Eli for all the times I had punished him for attacking Lily, and explained to Lily that it "takes two" and that When she *expects* to be attacked, and goes on the defensive, runs away, etc. it is an invitation that Eli cannot resist. I told her that just like Abelard learned to act bored when Eli started challenging him, she too would have to change her attitude, lose the fear, and calm down so we can have a peaceful home again. At first Lily would not take her face out of the crook of my arm and look at Eli, or if I made her look at him, she'd pin her ears and start growling. I just kept talking to the both of them and petting them, and calming Lily down. Eli was very cool about the whole thing, he never growled, hissed or acted the least bit threatening. Although I had a lot of work waiting for me, I promised myself I would stay there in the bathroom with these cats for however long it took for them to make peace. And it did not take a long time. Within half an hour, Lily was laying next to her dear Uncle Eli, with both of them purring. I stayed with them for another five minutes or so and then let them go. So far there have been no further fights, but if it does happen again we will go through another round of peace talk in the bathroom, each and every time until these two cats can co-exist without upsetting everyone else. I have no idea why my original subject line was replaced by the first sentence of the message body here. It was supposed to say "The Peace Talk". >I have no idea why my original subject line was replaced by the first >sentence of the message body here. It was supposed to say "The Peace Talk". Your method works so well with cats sometimes and we so often forget about it. With many cats, you really can talk to them. Explain things to them. And they do seem to get it. And like small children, sometimes it takes more than once. Jo >Although I had a lot of work waiting for me, I promised myself I would stay >there in the bathroom with these cats for however long it took for them to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >will go through another round of peace talk in the bathroom, each and every >time until these two cats can co-exist without upsetting everyone else. OMG, you made two enemy cats make up in half an hour!? I am not worthy. I will nominate you for a Nobel prize. :) > OMG, you made two enemy cats make up in half an hour!? I am not > worthy. I will nominate you for a Nobel prize. :) Yeah, they could send me to the middle east or something, eh? > > OMG, you made two enemy cats make up in half an hour!? I am not > > worthy. I will nominate you for a Nobel prize. :) > > Yeah, they could send me to the middle east or something, eh? It would be a cat walk for you ;) >> > OMG, you made two enemy cats make up in half an hour!? I am not >> > worthy. I will nominate you for a Nobel prize. :) >> >> Yeah, they could send me to the middle east or something, eh? > >It would be a cat walk for you ;) I wonder if we could lock the leaders of two warring countries into the bathroom together and feed them treats until they stop fighting. Jane - owned and operated by Princess Rita > OMG, you made two enemy cats make up in half an hour!? Actually, they were great friends up until Abelard got to be blasé toward Eli's attacks, and then Eli picked Lily as his new target of aggression. And, I'm sure this truce is very temporary. We've all seen enemy cats being nice to one another when both are very sleepy and content... haven't we? But I do intend to enforce the truce as needed, and remind Lily of how to handle Eli whenever she forgets. Heh. Just like kids. I remember once my mom tied my wrist to my sister's wrist with a single piece of sewing thread for a couple of hours. Presumably it would make us stop fighting. (????) Wouldn't recommend it though, specially not for cats!! Sherry <--- who loves my sister dearly now Bless you for your patience, Pat. We will purr and pray that things calm down for both furries. Lily & her mama Jazz, RB  SignatureIrulan from the stars we come to the stars we return from now until the end of time > Today Eli was laying next to me on the floor when Lily started looking in > the cat flap (to make sure Eli not around) so she could come in and have a [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > every time until these two cats can co-exist without upsetting everyone > else. > Today Eli was laying next to me on the floor when Lily started looking in > the cat flap (to make sure Eli not around) so she could come in and have a [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > every time until these two cats can co-exist without upsetting everyone > else. Very good. I was considering asking this very question. "How to make them just get along". Cleo is terrorizing Smokey despite being about half her size. Cleo is very indifferent to the other cats. Sometimes she swats at them, sometimes she is trying to play. But Smokey can't tell the difference, since Cleo has one attack speed, FULL. Smokey has started running and hiding at the first sign of trouble. Cali has even been coming to Smokey's rescue when she hears them fighting. This is really weird, since Smokey bullies Cali and their is no love lost between them. I don't think talking to either of these two would do much good, as neither is a rocket scientist. Cleo is definitely street smart, but not much brighter than Smokey. We've been slowly trying to impose some discipline on Cleo, without scaring her. We've also been trying to get Smokey to stand up to Cleo, but I think Cali is the best teacher here. Any advice. > I was considering asking this very question. "How to make them just get > along". Cleo is terrorizing Smokey despite being about half her size. Cleo [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Any advice. Yes I noticed that with two cats, not mine. One was very, very fat and the big, fat bully also had urinary problems so the crystals made for one quite violent mood swings for a cat who already had mood swings previously. The other cat, quite skinny and mellow was often bullied. But when I bullied the big fat cat while trying to dose her with antibiotic - she would purr one minute then turn around and open her mouth and snarl quite angrily - the other cat came in between the both of us! Very, very impressive behavior. Quite mature and quite sure of herself to control the situation, which she did. She was allowing herself to be bullied probably because she knew the other cat had serious problems of all sorts. So mature and sophisticated. I also saw once some physical movements that seemed to say to the other cat I will allow you to bully me but watch out - you can steal my food and other small things but don't make me put you in your place. >I was considering asking this very >question. "How to make them just get >along". I wrote a post about this very thing to Pat awhile back, but she seems to prefer chasing, yelling at and hitting (and yes, she did say she hit her cat ) instead of using gentle positive reinforcement. You can read it here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.anecdotes/msg/a2710944ff84577c?hl=en& Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >I was considering asking this very >>question. "How to make them just get [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Megan Not wishing to get in the middle of a war here, I'm sure Pat cares very much for her cats. I've read that animals have trouble associating the crime with the punishment, especially if any time has passed. We have found that telling the cat 'NO' prior to an episode tends to work fairly well on the brighter kitties (Cali). Although she sometimes denies she knows what this means. But even the challenged kitties can learn boundaries. eg. Smokey knows to stay out of Cali's bowl (at least when we're watching). Cleo thinks every bowl is hers; it may be a losing battle to change this habbit. > "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do > nothing." [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > - W.H. Murray > Today Eli was laying next to me on the floor when Lily started looking in > the cat flap (to make sure Eli not around) so she could come in and have a [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > will go through another round of peace talk in the bathroom, each and every > time until these two cats can co-exist without upsetting everyone else. Pat, I've waited two days before replying to this note because I didn't want to reply in anger (see below), I wanted to reply in a reasonable manner so that I might help you out here. First let me say that I minored in psychology in college, I've reared two children who were 13 months apart in age and both had ADHD, and I have continued to study psychology, and child psychology in particular, for the last 33 years. My daughter now has three children who are 6, 12, and 13, and is rearing them as I reared her - with no spanking or screaming *AT ALL*, but *PLENTY* of discipline - and all three of her children are also beautifully behaved. So I really do know what I'm talking about. Hitting a child or an animal not only does *NOT* change bad behavior, it *ENCOURAGES* and *MODELS* violence and bad behavior. It is demonstrating to the "subject" (child or animal) that hitting is a solution to problems. Does it not make sense that we should not hit when we're trying to teach a subject not to hit???! Children and animals are hyper-sensitive to our moods, and they are especially good at picking up anger (it's a built-in protection mechanism of those creatures who are smaller than us). When dealing with a discipline issue, the first thing you have to do is get control of *yourself*. *****If you are angry and can't calm down right away, then walk away (unless there is immediate danger in your walking away) and come back when you have gotten control of yourself.***** If you do this often enough you can teach yourself out of the habit of reacting to things with anger and you won't need to walk away (unfortunately, I still react immediately with anger when I'm confronted with someone hurting a child or an animal). You need to model and demonstrate the behavior you want to teach, e.g. calm, control, peace, and good social interaction. Children, and especially animals, who perforce don't understand speech, do not learn from what we tell them, they learn from what we do. Pertaining to cats in particular... You should *NEVER* hit a cat. Cats more than any other creature do not associate your hitting them with their bad behavior. All you will accomplish will be to make your cat afraid of you and whoever was in the area (i.e. the other cat) when he was hurt and frightened. This will make the fighting between the two cats worse in the long run. I think the temporary "truce" you saw was more from tiredness and boredom than from any understanding of what you were taking about (interpretation of what "Fluffy" hears when you talk to him: "Blah, blah blah, blah blah blah Fluffy. Blah, blah blah, blah blah blah, Fluffy, blah blah blah"), I know you're dealing with depression right now (so am I), and that makes it hard to control what you feel and do, but ultimately you will feel better about yourself if you can get control of your anger since depression is actually anger turned inwards. Hugs, CatNipped > Pat, I've waited two days before replying to this note because I didn't > want [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > CatNipped Lori, I've studied a bit of psychology myself so I can appreciate your PoV. I also failed to word my post as accurately as I perhaps should have. When I said I "whapped" Eli, it was not done in anger, and I did not hurt the cat. I just saw the need to get him off of Lily immediately, and did what had to be done, in a calm and efficient manner. There was no other way to stop the fight. Eli does not fear me now and did not fear me right after I hit him, either, but the next time he saw me seeing him thinking about attacking Lily, all I had to do was give him a certain look to defuse the idea. Animal psychology is, I believe, a little bit different than what we need to raise children. I learned this watching horses, that if one of them is exhibiting some potentially dangerous behavior toward you, it's perfectly OK to strike them. That is what another horse would do - kick, or bite. Many animal lovers will take offense at this statement, however, the fact is that no unarmed human being can ever strike a horse anywhere near as hard as another horse can. Physical violence is how these animals establish their "pecking order", and unless you want to be overrun by a horse that does not know its boundaries, sometimes you MUST hit or kick them. But that doesn't mean you are angry when you do. If you watch what goes on in the herd, after someone is disciplined by another horse, that horse doesn't "fear" the one that stood his or her ground, but the respect increases. And the horse that did the biting or kicking is not "angry" for a moment longer than it takes to deliver the kick or bite. The offending horse will now think twice before repeating whatever it was that warranted the discipline. Simple. It's not precisely like that with cats, of course, but the fact is sometimes the only way to intervene in a situation (in this case, break up a fight and protect both cats from injury) involves "whapping" one of them. Certainly if a cat was attacking you or one of your grandkids as aggressively as Eli was tearing into little Lily, you would not hesitate to intervene, even it it meant handling the cat in an aggressive manner. Not because you were "angry at" the cat, but rather because you wanted to spare someone else harm. I have never hit an animal in anger, with one exception: when a vicious cat attacked my arm and sunk its fangs in all the way to the bone. I had gotten in between him and my beloved Whitefoot, who was about to be torn to shreds by this demon-possessed animal. Lily's the one who's scared, but not of or because of me or anything I have done. > > Pat, I've waited two days before replying to this note because I didn't > > want [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > Lily's the one who's scared, but not of or because of me or anything I have > done. Pat, what animals do among themselves to communicate does not apply to us. We are, hopefully, reasoning beings. Our animals do not see us as "one of them", so what we do, we do as *humans* to those who are more helpless than ourselves. Two dogs may snap at each other to communicate or establish dominance. That does not mean that we should bite our dogs to show them who's boss. And while hitting an animal who is 10 times larger than you (like a horse) may not hurt the animal, hitting an animal who is 10 times *smaller* than you (like a cat) certainly will. I'm not trying to win an argument here, I'm just trying to let you know that there is an alternative that will work *much* better for you than what you have been doing (which is obviously not getting you the results you want if your cats are still fighting and one of them is still afraid in her own home). Control, consequences (as in rewarding the behavior you want to see continue), and consistency will *always* work on *any* sentient being. If you don't want my help with this problem, I'll bow out, but if you continue to post about hitting your cat I'm going to killfile you. I'm fighting depression myself right now and reading the recent posts about the beaten kitten in the UK and the cat mutilator in LA has really gotten to me. Hugs, CatNipped > Pat, what animals do among themselves to communicate does not apply to us. And I was not suggesting that we should fight among ourselves and settle our human differences with violence. > We are, hopefully, reasoning beings. Our animals do not see us as "one of > them", so what we do, we do as *humans* to those who are more helpless > than > ourselves. As a matter of fact, they *do* see us that way. If you have a dog, or dogs, the dog/s see/s you as the "alpha dog", the leader of his/their little pack. Or at least, that is how he/they *should* see you, if you are in control of your dog/s. Same goes for horses. If they do not see you as the Top Horse in their herd, you WILL get hurt eventually. With cats who own humans, they see us as mommy. Watch mommy cat discipline her kittens and you'll see a whole lotta whappin' goin' on. > hitting an animal who is 10 times > *smaller* than you (like a cat) certainly will. Not if you do it with only the amount of force a cat would apply.... > obviously not getting you the results you want if > your cats are still fighting and one of them is still afraid in her own > home). It's going to take time to resolve the problem. > I'm fighting depression myself right now and reading the recent posts > about the > beaten kitten in the UK and the cat mutilator in LA has really gotten to > me. I can see that this is *your* issue. I'm not blaming myself for how you feel nor am I responsible for the way you feel. I am not hurting/abusing my cats, either. Not a one of them is the least bit afraid of me or resentful toward me. And although you're right now putting me in the same box in your mind where you keep the cat beaters and mutilators, I do not feel resentful toward you. I am not taking on your issue as my responsibility, but if you ask for help in getting past the urge to try to make it mine, that I can do! . > > Pat, what animals do among themselves to communicate does not apply to us. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > their herd, you WILL get hurt eventually. With cats who own humans, they see > us as mommy. The "alpha" animal theory of husbandry has been disproven many, many times over. > Watch mommy cat discipline her kittens and you'll see a whole lotta whappin' > goin' on. Most mommy cats I know don't weigh 130+ pounds. > > hitting an animal who is 10 times > > *smaller* than you (like a cat) certainly will. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > toward you. I am not taking on your issue as my responsibility, but if you > ask for help in getting past the urge to try to make it mine, that I can do! I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same box in my mind as cat abusers, then refer to the following definition of "whap" from the Meriam-Webster web site: Main Entry: whap Pronunciation: 'hwäp, 'wäp variant of WHOP Main Entry: 1whop Pronunciation: 'hwäp, 'wäp Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): whopped; whop·ping Etymology: Middle English whappen, alteration of wappen to throw violently 1 : to pull or whip out 2 a : BEAT, STRIKE b : to defeat totally Hugs, CatNipped >I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if >you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same box in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Pronunciation: 'hwäp, 'wäp >variant of WHOP Come on you two, enough whapping of one another! :) > >I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if > >you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same box in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Come on you two, enough whapping of one another! :) Sure Tak, I won't beat my head against a brick wall. And since it appears that nobody else here has a problem with Pat hitting her cats, I guess it's about time for me to leave again. It looks like I've overstayed my welcome. I'm off to the mothership - I may check in again a few years down the line. Purrs to all in my absence. ;> Hugs, CatNipped I think both of you need to step back, take a chill pill and take a deep breath. I think both of you are reading way to much of your personal opinion into the posts. This is not an attack on either of you but my opinion! You can't get a persons feeling, what they meant or their comprehending the words from a typed message; even if violence is described to the T. A whap, a hit, beating, touching can and are all viewed in different terms unless it is seen by the 2nd party in person. And still it is viewed differently by the 2nd parties education, up bringing and social interaction Child, animal psychology and sociology are so broad based that anything can be taught and is taken as gospel. There are no such thing as experts just experience. For every report that says that positive reinforcement by word work there are 20 others that say it does not same goes for physical aspect of this question. No shrink or counselor every agrees on the same diagnoses unless it is obvious condition and still they disagree on how to fix it. No matter what there is always someone who will disagree or does not see it your way Expert or not Experienced or not It does not matter for anyone If you weren't there to witness the action or been able to observe the affects or the effects of the action. NO JUDGMENT CAN, OR SHOULD EVER BE MADE If this action was done out of anger or revenge than yes PAT you deserve to have someone do it right back to you. And I said IF YOU DID not that you did. Catnipped the other posters may have not taken issue with the incident of Pat's action. They might have read into to it differently. You know that everyone views everything differently or they are possibility guilty of it themselves; not saying anyone is! . But personally on my note going after the offender never works they are still going to do what they want to do and flames just get made and all it does is get you pissed off. Unless it is a troll or a moron they are fun to flame ;-) Catnipped you do what you got to do but don't leave the group your post that I have read show that you care about the welfare of animals and do have insightful feed back. And I read about the same animal cruelty that you did and It got to me also. I see the cruelty everyday when I'm at the shelters my punching bag gets replaced every year some times twice a year. You got friends here even if you don't realize it and disappearing from a place that can make you happy or let you vent won't help :-) Now that I got that off my chest you can vent on me all you like :-o I will be enjoying my BBQ :-) >> >I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if >> >you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same box [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > CatNipped Don't be so silly, Lori. What *are* you thinking of? Pat is driven to distraction by Eli's behaviour. I don't agree with hitting a cat, I don't think it would work at all, but I understand why she did it in a moment of pure frustration. It would be much better if we could get our heads together and work out why Eli has started to become so aggressive recently. My guess would be that he could have a health problem, something uncomfortable that's making him be in a permanent bad mood. Tweed Tweed wrote: >It would be much better if we could get >our heads together and work out why Eli >has started to become so aggressive >recently. The reason for Eli's behavior has already been explained by me in a previous post, and I also gave the solution. Pat doesn't want to expend the effort and instead will continue to yell at, isolate, stress and hit her cat because that's what she *wants* to do. To continue such behavior after one has been offered an effective and gentle alternative just proves that she gets enjoyment form her unnecessarily cruel treatment of Eli. She has some pretty serious issues as it is, and she may very well alleviate the stress that living in a hoarder situation causes by taking it out on Eli using his attacks as an excuse. AFAIC, she has no business caring for any animals right now and the living situation is most likely creating stress for the cats as well. Eli doesn't deserve to be treated so cruelly, and her other cat suffered stress not just from him, but from HER in her treatment of her by dragging her, frightened and stressed, out from under the bed and then forcing her to be closed in a room with and near a cat she is terrified of. None of this is necessary and only serves to stress and frighten the cats more. Did you know that cats not only purr when they are happy, but also when they are injured and scared/stressed? The description of them purring was no doubt their reaction to the fright and trauma that she inflicted upon them, as it has been on many other occasions. And to see Pat in a later post justify hitting animals as though she is entitled to treat them the way she thinks they treat each other just underlines her severely skewed vision of proper treatment of animals and her desire to use methods that involve mean physical actions that only serve to frighten and stress the cats, which in turn makes the behavior worse. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >> >I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if > >> >you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same box [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Tweed Tweed, if Pat would have said she did it in a moment of anger and frustration, I would have understood (if not condoned) it. But she didn't, she went on for several posts saying that hitting a cat is a legitimate training technique. Hitting the aggressor cat, along with dragging the frightened victim cat out from under the bed and forcing her into the same small room with the aggressor cat was downright cruel. I'm sorry, but it is! She rejected all advice on other, better, ways to handle the problem (things that would actually *work*) from me and Megan, and instead heatedly defended her practice of hitting her cats. Pat has written here about her other problems with her out-of-control house. Again, every time somebody offered her advice on what to do all she did was make excuses for why she couldn't follow the advice and asked that somebody come and clean her house for her instead. It seems like Pat doesn't come here looking for advice as much as she comes here to get exoneration for the things she is not willing to make the effort to change. And she gets it. As far as her living conditions, that's fine with me if she wants to continue to live that way. But I can't stand back and say nothing when she talks about hitting her cats. I don't care how long someone has posted here, or how well you think you know them, when it comes down to it, a cat's welfare should take precedence over "friendship". But that's just me. If you guys want to accept that, do, but I can't. I've asked Vicky to unsubscribe me from CatSlaves and I'm leaving this group. However, for those of you who have pages on my web site, I'll continue to support them and you all have my email if you'd like to send me something to add to them. Hugs, CatNipped > > >> >I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But > if [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > CatNipped I"m sorry you feel that you need to unsubscribe. I know you're in a bad place right now and it's easy to over-react and blow things out of proportion. I hope you're able to sort things out and return soon. Sherry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- From: "CatNipped" <lcrews@houston.rr.com> >Pat has written here about her other problems with her out-of-control house. >Again, every time somebody offered her advice on what to do all she did was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >And she gets it. TROLL..........TROLL..........TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KILLFILE..........KILLFILE...........KILLFILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ABUSE REPORTED TO YOUR ISP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey, I think I.m finally starting to learn the RPCA etiquette. :) Come on back to H+B. We may argue a bit, but nobody sugar coats hitting a cat. People talk nice in rpca, but it's a smoke screen for some rather nasty attitudes. Remember, The Devil always approaches with a smile. > It seems like Pat doesn't come here looking for advice as much as she comes > here to get exoneration for the things she is not willing to make the effort > to change. > > And she gets it. Oh JFC - if that isn't the Pot calling the Kettle Black! > I've asked Vicky to unsubscribe me from CatSlaves and I'm leaving this > group. If we could only be so lucky. Why do people feel the need to announce their departure? Just leave, for Christ's sake! -L. >> Pat is driven to distraction by Eli's behaviour. That's quite a stretch.... >> I understand why she did it in a moment of pure frustration One more assumption that's way off..... >> Eli has started to become so aggressive recently. It's not a recent development at all; he's been that way for two years. >> My guess would be that he could have a health problem, something >> uncomfortable that's making him be in a permanent bad mood. You'll never find a healthier cat that Eli. > Tweed, if Pat would have said she did it in a moment of anger and > frustration, The underlying assumption here is that the act of breaking up a catfight *must* include being angry and frustrated. This is not necessarily true! , > she went on for several posts saying that hitting a cat is a legitimate > training technique. Now this is deliberate twisting of what I did say. > Hitting the aggressor cat, He got the standard thwack on the ear with the ring finger. > along with dragging the frightened victim cat out > from under the bed and forcing her into the same small room with the > aggressor cat was downright cruel. I'm sorry, but it is! I guess you never heard of "tough love". > She rejected all advice on other, better, ways to handle the problem > and instead heatedly defended her practice of hitting her cats. This is pure bull. As is the rest (which has been snipped), > I've asked Vicky to unsubscribe me from CatSlaves To unsubscribe from any Yahoo Group, simply log in and click on "My Groups" then "Edit my groups" or go to the group's home page and click "Edit my membership." > > >I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if > > >you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same box [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And since it appears that nobody else here has a problem with Pat hitting > her cats, I guess it's about time for me to leave again. No, I don't have a problem with Pat "hitting her cats." For Christ's sakes, you make it sound like she beats them regularly. You know Pat from her posts here for years. I have met Pat IRL. I *know*, and I suspect if you admit it, you also know...she DOES NOT have the capability in her body or soul to abuse an animal. I suspect she chose her words poorly. She may not have handled the situation in the best way, but the way you defined "whop" for all of us, honestly sounded like you were accusing her of beating them. I hope you don't leave. I would miss your posts. But please, take a step back and maybe stop and think that you weren't there. You didn't witness anything. Hitting a cat, or a child is wrong IMO, and obviously your HO also, but I think you're over-reacting and making her sound like an animal abuser. Sherry > It looks like I've overstayed my welcome. I'm off to the mothership - I may > check in again a few years down the line. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > CatNipped >> >I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if >> >you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > CatNipped And..what will that accomplish? MLB >Sure Tak, I won't beat my head against a brick wall. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >It looks like I've overstayed my welcome. I'm off to the mothership - I may >check in again a few years down the line. Well, this sure is a bad result on the part of my posting, exactly the opposite of what I wanted to happen! Lori, it's not true that you've overstayed your welcome. If you're fatigued with the group, then take a rest and try to come back earlier than a few years. You're a beloved member of the group. > You're a beloved member of the group. I'm living with a very emotional cat right now. He needs praise and wears his emotions on his sleeve. He needs reassurance that he is loved, and then he feels secure with us. I'm pretty sure that quite often a cat's behavior is a version of human behavior. Rhonda > The "alpha" animal theory of husbandry has been disproven many, many times > over. That would be big news to the "new breed" of horse trainers who are having such phenomenal success with "problem horses" and training their owners. You really should let them all know your expert views. I'm sure that after they learn the truth, they will enjoy even greater success. To help you get started, here are links to a few of their sites, where you will find their contact information: http://www.montyroberts.com/ http://www.horsewhisperer.com/ http://www.parelli.com/home.html http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/ http://www.tomdorrance.com/ http://www.ponyboy.com/ http://www.markrashid.com/ http://www.johnlyons.com/index.php http://www.richardshrake.com/ http://www.rayhunt.com/ http://www.chrisirwin.com/ http://www.brannaman.com/index.htm http://www.chris-cox.com/home.shtml http://www.reisranch.com/ > Most mommy cats I know don't weigh 130+ pounds. > > 1 : to pull or whip out > 2 a : BEAT, STRIKE b : to defeat totally Again, the difference is in the amount of force used. I can't use enough force on a 15-lb. cat if I am just a kitten myself. But no matter how much larger I am than the cat, I can use just enough force to accomplish the intent, WITHOUT HURTING THE CAT!!!!! > As a matter of fact, they *do* see us that way. If you have a dog, or > dogs, the dog/s see/s you as the "alpha dog", the leader of his/their > little pack. Or at least, that is how he/they *should* see you, if you are > in control of your dog/s. Same goes for horses. If they do not see you as > the Top Horse in their herd, you WILL get hurt eventually. I was told when I was trying to learn how to ride, that a rider without confidence makes many horses nervous. That most horses aren't too bright anyway, and they get uncomfortable with a rider that doesn't know what they are doing. And that makes them act out. Which is why I never got very good. But can still say I've taken some pretty good jumps. (And stayed on). Of course it was the shortest way back to the barn, the horses idea not mine. I still enjoy being able to take a horse out on a trail up near Tahoe or down in Yosemite. And one of these days I'm going to rent one to ride on the beach. With cats who own humans, they see > us as mommy. > > Watch mommy cat discipline her kittens and you'll see a whole lotta > whappin' goin' on. Well my animal control ability improved the day it dawned on me that it makes no sense to yell at a dog to shut up. Also learned it is very difficult to control barking with a pair of sisters. One would think she heard something and grrr. Secone one would take her grr for it and yap. yap met with bark. and by then they have both forgotten the concept of hearing something and warning. Most dog training involved getting their undivided attention. Sometimes that takes more than asking nicely. But hitting is counterproductive with most it not all breeds. If you have watched a mamma cat with her growing kittens. she does swat them to tell them "no you can't do that" And while I can hit much harder than a mamma cat, I certainly don't. But there are times they must be told that some behavior is not acceptable. Pushing them away from what they are intent on doing only makes sense to me. Jo > And while I can hit much harder than a mamma cat, I certainly don't. But > there are times they must be told that some behavior is not acceptable. > Pushing them away from what they are intent on doing only makes sense to me. > Jo That makes sense although pushing is not quite hitting. I don't know where the hitting comes from in this thread. I see that Catnipped brought it up but the very first message was the opposite of hitting where Pat said she accomplished peace through discussion. In any case, if hitting is counter-productive, it's easily seen in the flinch when someone raises a hand. I don't hit my cat ever but she flinched when I raised my hand and that made me flinch. Why did she do that? I had to rethink and realize that when I playfight with her I was sometimes confusing her. Now I make sure she knows we are going to playfight and she lays on her back in her defensive posture or attacks my ankles or legs in an offensive posture. I don't ambush her anymore because I think it scared and confused her. So she stopped flinching since I stopped ambusing. She still ambushes me though. So that's good. I don't think I ever hit a cat. But in times of extreme anger, I have picked up a cat by the scruff of their neck and just glared eyeball to eyeball. Fortunately the cat is quite docile, maybe reverting to kittenhood, by this action. Not sure. Rarely do this. Maybe once every couple years. > I don't think I ever hit a cat. But in times of extreme anger, I have > picked up a cat by the scruff of their neck and just glared eyeball to > eyeball. Fortunately the cat is quite docile, maybe reverting to > kittenhood, by this action. Not sure. Rarely do this. Maybe once every > couple years. Hissing is good too. A real mouth-open, sharp, angry cat hiss is so surprising to a cat, not expecting such bad cat words to come out of a human mouth, it's really quite effective in stopping them doing whatever naughty thing they were up to! Deb. Signaturehttp://www.scientific-art.com "He looked a fierce and quarrelsome cat, but claw he never would; He only bit the ones he loved, because they tasted good." S. Greenfield > > I don't think I ever hit a cat. But in times of extreme anger, I have > > picked up a cat by the scruff of their neck and just glared eyeball to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > "He looked a fierce and quarrelsome cat, but claw he never would; > He only bit the ones he loved, because they tasted good." S. Greenfield Now ain't that the truth? I had one friend who did this with his cat. She would claw something he liked, a rattan piece of furniture or something cats would normally just love to take apart. So, as he told me, he would get down on all fours, like a cat, and hiss at her. It worked but he was kind of strange, and no, it was not I! > Hissing is good too. Growling works as well when the Furballs were kittens and they were about to do something they shouldn't (Most of the time they were awake) I could growl at them and most of the time that would work. Another thing which works is an empty aerosol can. Please will someone explain this? It's a particular one and it works wonders with Sarrasine. Obviously when it was full I never sprayed her with its contents or even near her but this one canister now only has to be produced for her to stop whatever mischief she is up to. But it's the one empty aerosol. Other empty aerosols even of the same brand just don't have any effect. We live in dread of losing it. (And Sarrasine keeps knocking it behind the bookcase! Wonder why?!) Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > Another thing which works is an empty aerosol can. Please will someone > explain this? It's a particular one and it works wonders with > Sarrasine. Maybe it sounds like hissing to her, and the mere sight of it brings out the fear of the hissing sound. You've got a mean and scary cat trapped inside of that can! Rhonda > > Another thing which works is an empty aerosol can. Please will someone > > explain this? It's a particular one and it works wonders with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Rhonda Excellent analysis. Well done. Now if an identical can does not bring the same result,,, time for Twilight Zone music ... [my excuse for not figuring out the puzzle. i thought the OP had said identical cans did not work. maybe this one has a tiny scratch on it?] > Maybe it sounds like hissing to her, and the mere sight of it brings out > the fear of the hissing sound. You've got a mean and scary cat trapped > inside of that can! I could understand this but why just this one can! Empty cans even of the same product produce no reaction whatsoever but this one particular can...she only has to see us reach for it and she gets off the curtains Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Wow, she is good! Have you tried some kitty experiments? I'd be very curious as to why she picked that one, too. Is it in the same place all of the time (so that she knows which one you are reaching for?) If you replaced it with one of the other empties when she wasn't looking, then reached for the new one in that spot when she was looking, would she know the difference? Rhonda > I could understand this but why just this one can! Empty cans even of > the same product produce no reaction whatsoever but this one particular [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Slave of the Fabulous Furballs |
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