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Another asthma question

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Karen - 20 Oct 2005 01:19 GMT
In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
to trying the aerokat for some reason. I will be talking to her more in
detail next week. Poor Pearl had blood drawn today, but the blood
machine wasn't working right and the person making the appt. didn't
tell me she should fast, so it was pretty much a wasted effort. Poor
Pearl.
jmcquown - 20 Oct 2005 01:27 GMT
> In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting
> aminophylline. It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> making the appt. didn't tell me she should fast, so it was pretty
> much a wasted effort. Poor Pearl.

Awwww, poor Pearl indeed.  I don't know anything about asthma meds for cats,
sorry.  Purrs for Pearl to feel better.

Jill
Jo Firey - 20 Oct 2005 01:34 GMT
> In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline. It
> is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant to
> trying the aerokat for some reason. I will be talking to her more in
> detail next week. Poor Pearl had blood drawn today, but the blood machine
> wasn't working right and the person making the appt. didn't tell me she
> should fast, so it was pretty much a wasted effort. Poor Pearl.

The medicine is similar (or the same as) to theophyllin.  Related to
caffeine.  It kept me alive for years.

Jo
Stormin Mormon - 20 Oct 2005 02:41 GMT
The lady came into the doctors office remembering the vet's instructions
"and no breakfast!". After the tests finished, she said "glad that's done,
I'm starving".

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 Do good work.
 It's longer in the short run
 but shorter in the long run.
.
.

In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
to trying the aerokat for some reason. I will be talking to her more in
detail next week. Poor Pearl had blood drawn today, but the blood
machine wasn't working right and the person making the appt. didn't
tell me she should fast, so it was pretty much a wasted effort. Poor
Pearl.
Howard C. Berkowitz - 20 Oct 2005 02:54 GMT
> In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
> It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tell me she should fast, so it was pretty much a wasted effort. Poor
> Pearl.

Aminophylline is injectable only, and is considered obsolete in humans.
Theophylline is still used orally, but is definitely a third-line drug,
with a narrow range between therapeutic and toxic levels.

It depends, of course, how practical inhalers are. Again, do remember
that I'm extrapolating from human medicine.  Pretty much the mainstay
of prevention is a mixed inhaled corticosteroid with a long-acting
beta-agonist such as salmeterol. Other classes of inhalable drug
include cromolin and neocromil (preventive), short-acting beta-agonists
like albuterol (rescue/intervention), and anticholinergics such as
ipratropium (inbetween preventive and interventional).
Karen - 20 Oct 2005 04:13 GMT
>> In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
>> It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> like albuterol (rescue/intervention), and anticholinergics such as
> ipratropium (inbetween preventive and interventional).

Hmm. She definitely said aminophylline. And definitely oral (although I
know it is also injectible and used in crisis situations).
Wayne Mitchell - 20 Oct 2005 04:01 GMT
>In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
>It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>tell me she should fast, so it was pretty much a wasted effort. Poor
>Pearl.

I don't understand this, Karen.  Aminophylline is a
bronchodilator.  It can help with symptoms, but does not reduce
the underlying inflammation.  You need some kind of steroid for
that, which is what the prednisone/prednisolone is.  I can't see
*replacing* an anti-inflammatory with a bronchodilator.  Often
both are prescribed.

Do you have any idea why your vet is resistant to inhaled
therapy?  Just lack of familiarity?

Poor Pearl, indeed.  Purrs for a better vet visit next time.

Signature

Wayne, with special purrformances by Will and Heidi

Karen - 20 Oct 2005 04:17 GMT
>> In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
>> It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Poor Pearl, indeed.  Purrs for a better vet visit next time.

I think she thinks it is too difficult. One thing about Pearl is I do
not think she is as bad as many. She doesn't have daily problems and
never did. Maybe twice weekly at the worst times (except that one day
when I took her in)  with big stretches (probably "off season"). I just
don't know what to do. I will definitely address the concern about it
being damaging without the steroid.
Howard C. Berkowitz - 20 Oct 2005 11:02 GMT
> >In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
> >It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> *replacing* an anti-inflammatory with a bronchodilator.  Often
> both are prescribed.

I agree. The mainstay of modern asthma therapy is preventing or
mitigating the inflammation, not bronchodilation.  Drawing from human
medicine, there are complex ways to deal with predisone toxicity, such
as supplementing with low-dose methotrexate. It's possible neocromil or
cromolyn can replace corticosteroids, but definitely not a given.
Cromolyns are preventive, but not strictly anti-inflammatory. Instead,
they raise the sensitivity that causes inflammation. I wouldn't want to
stop corticosteroids and THEN try them, but I'd add them to the
corticosteroids and see if there was improvement.

Cromolyns, AFAIK, must be inhaled.

> Do you have any idea why your vet is resistant to inhaled
> therapy?  Just lack of familiarity?
>
> Poor Pearl, indeed.  Purrs for a better vet visit next time.
Marina - 20 Oct 2005 17:06 GMT
> In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
> It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
> to trying the aerokat for some reason. I will be talking to her more in
> detail next week. Poor Pearl had blood drawn today, but the blood
> machine wasn't working right and the person making the appt. didn't tell
> me she should fast, so it was pretty much a wasted effort. Poor Pearl.

Well, the new medicine they prescribed for Nikki just before she died
was theophylline; I don't know how closely related it is to
aminophylline. Of course, I'll never know if it was the meds or
something else - e.g. a brain tumour - that gave her the fit that she
never recovered from.

Signature

Marina, Frank, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Nikki.
marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Karen - 20 Oct 2005 17:28 GMT
Ohhh. Yeah. I'm getting cold feet on this anyway. Darn it. I need to talk to
her again.

> > In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
> > It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> something else - e.g. a brain tumour - that gave her the fit that she
> never recovered from.
Marina - 20 Oct 2005 18:35 GMT
> Ohhh. Yeah. I'm getting cold feet on this anyway. Darn it. I need to talk to
> her again.

I don't want to project my sense of guilt on you, but I just have to say
I wish so much that I'd insisted on some sort of inhaled meds, though my
vet at the time honestly stated she didn't know much about them for
cats. But then hindsight is always twenty-twenty, isn't it.

Signature

Marina, Frank, Miranda and Caliban. In loving memory of Nikki.
marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Howard C. Berkowitz - 20 Oct 2005 18:14 GMT
> > In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
> > It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> was theophylline; I don't know how closely related it is to
> aminophylline.

Essentially the same thing. Aminophylline can be injected while
theophylline can't.  

>Of course, I'll never know if it was the meds or
> something else - e.g. a brain tumour - that gave her the fit that she
> never recovered from.
Julie Cook - 20 Oct 2005 19:41 GMT
> In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
> It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
> to trying the aerokat for some reason. I will be talking to her more in
> detail next week. Poor Pearl had blood drawn today, but the blood
> machine wasn't working right and the person making the appt. didn't tell
> me she should fast, so it was pretty much a wasted effort. Poor Pearl.

Karen,
I've read the entire thread and think you might be right about your vet
just not being knowledgeable about inhaled meds, thus not wanting to go
that route.  It would seem that as the client you and Pearl have the
right to insist on the route of medication. We know that aminophylline
is a bronchodilator which indicates your vet is currently wanting to
treat the symptoms only. Has Pearl recently had a steroid shot that
might be controlling the inflammation? My thoughts are that the vet
knows she's given Pearl a steroid and is now wanting to give her
something to control coughing. She isn't comfortable prescribing inhaled
meds so she's going with the aminophylline.  When I brought Sam home
from the emergency vet he was on Terbutaline which is another oral
bronchodilator.  I was given a prescription for Albuterol but told not
to use it until he had finished taking the oral terbutaline...emphasis
on do not give both at the same time.  Sam had been given a steroid
injection several weeks before and they did not want to give him another
injection but wanted me to go ahead and begin with the Flovent as soon
as I could. Both the emergency vet and my regular vet were well educated
about inhaled meds so no other options were ever discussed.  I was
directed to the fritzthebrave web site for additional information and
fortunately Sam never gave me any trouble about taking inhaled meds.
Now - 10 months later - when he sees me shaking the canister of Flovent
he runs to the cat tree, sits on the platform and waits for me.

I think if I were you, knowing what you know, that I would make an
appointment with the vet and show up without Pearl and just discuss what
you know about inhaled meds and the fact that you want Pearl to receive
the safest medical treatment possible.  Maybe ease her mind by having
her give you a prescription for the terbutaline in the event you can't
get Pearl to adapt to the mask right away. That would give you a way to
treat an attack. Print out the protocol and pictures found on the
fritzthebrave web site so that she can read it for herself.  Order an
aerokat device which takes several days to arrive and hopefully by the
time you have that she will have read the material you gave her and
you'll be ready to treat Pearl.

Sam started with 2 puffs of 220 mg Flovent, twice a day.  He has finally
reached a point where he can have 2 puffs once a day.  I suspect when
the weather changes and I have to turn on the heat again he may have to
go back to twice a day, although I have eliminated a lot of the triggers
(most importantly, I don't smoke in the house any more).

I don't know if any of this information helps, but Sam is sending extra
special purrs for Pearl, which I know will help ;)

If you'd like, I'll be happy to send an email to your vet telling her
about Sam's case.  He was in acute respiratory distress when we landed
at the emergency vet. He was cyanotic and had a collapsed lung.  He was
in an oxygen cage for 48 hours and within a month of using the inhaled
meds his condition was manageable.  During that month he required fairly
regular doses of Albuterol but now I haven't given him Albuterol in 3
months!

Sending purrs and gentle headbutts to you and Pearl,
Julie, Hobbes, Selena, Lacey, Sam and Barnabus
Karen - 20 Oct 2005 21:06 GMT
One thing about Pearl is I don't think her asthma is bad. At the most she
has coughed say three times a week (until The day I took her to emergency,
when she did have 5 bad attacks. She was definitely uncomfortable and
growly.,) not daily, like some and her worst cough attacks did not include
open mouth breathing.  But when she has them it looks *exactly* like that
video on Fritz the Brave.

The emergency vet really thought it was asthma but I think my vet got
distracted from that whole issue when we found the enlarged heart. However,
Pearl has been doing this since I got her 3 years ago and the xray we got of
her 2.5 years ago shows a normal heart so I truly believe this was pre heart
trouble. I wonder if this vet is not resisting for that reason too.

At any rate, I was "practicing" today to see how Pearl would do with
something on her face and I can put an empty toilet paper roll over her nose
and mouth and she is not real freaked out or anything. Pearl is not heavily
"noise conscious". She has let me vacuum her body. I think it would actually
be easier on her than pilling because she has SUCH a gag reflex.

I am definitely going to wait on the aminophylline and just be very
forthwright that everything I have read suggests aminophylline is not good
without a steroid used in conjunction with it and using the steroid is what
I want to get away from! She takes oral pred, 1/2 every other day, but I
actually haven't given her one now since Saturday.

After her last attack, which happened when I turned off the a/c and had the
deck door open (and also had too old of filters in our HEPA room air
filter), I started her up on pred 1/2 twice a day and then tapered down
again. I also turned back on the a/c and got new filters. Now it is getting
cold again, and I really have to turn off the a/c. So, I have a call in to
talk to my vet. Unfortunately, instead of Sugar's vet, Pearl has ended up
with the younger feline vet and I do think that plays into this. Thanks for
you detailed post. I am lucky as I do not think Pearl is anywhere near as
bad as Sam or other kitties. I don't want her getting worse either!

> > In asking the vet to replace the pred, she is suggesting aminophylline.
> > It is two times a day. Has anyone here tried that? They seem resistant
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> Sending purrs and gentle headbutts to you and Pearl,
> Julie, Hobbes, Selena, Lacey, Sam and Barnabus
james@loowit.net - 20 Oct 2005 23:05 GMT
Hi Karen,

If your vet is confident with a diagnosis of asthma then get agreement
on the severity of it, mild, moderate or severe? This will guide
medication choices and prescription. Dr. Phil Padrid's inhaled
medication protocol may be found at
http://www.fritzthebrave.com/meds/inhaled_protocol.pdf

In general what has been said on this forum is right on: for moderate
and severe asthmatics (frequent symptoms) then they should be on a
regularly-provided antiinflammatory first, with help from a
bronchodilator second. For moderate and severe asthmatics, relying on a
bronchodilator alone doesn't protect the cat from a serious attack when
the bronchodilator wears off -- the anti-inflammatory provides a
measure of protection/prevention of severe attacks.

Mild seasonal/infrequent asthmatics with nonthreatening symptoms may be
better off without regular anti-inflammatory drugs.

In my lay opinion, three times a week and then emergency visits sounds
to me like Pearl is squarely in the realm of a moderate to severe
asthmatic -- very much like Fritz! Fritz has twice daily treatment with
two puffs of 220mg Flovent, and recently has also been needing
Combivent once/day (a mixture of Albuterol and Ipratropium). With this
he is symptom free. I wish he didn't need any bronchodilators but he
gets symptomatic and moody without them - although his symptoms are not
life threatening. I wish he was doing better. The good news is with the
Flovent his attacks are mild and easily halted with the bronchodilator.

By the way, Flovent *is* a steroid ("glucocorticosteroid") -- the
difference is that it is applied directly to the smallest chambers of
the lung tissues via fine aerosolization. While larger aerosol
particles impact in the larger airways, and are swallowed and processed
by the liver, they are pretty much nonreactive with internal organs so
have no measurable systemic effect as compared to prednisone or
dexamethasone (popular oral/injected steroids). This is why Flovent is
'safer' systemically.

The enlarged heart is definitely a complicating factor and will be
important in treatment choices... I'm out of my league with that. The
good news is that cardiac health is much better understood by vets, and
you can help educate them a little bit with the pulmonary health
options, right? :)

Keep up the dialogue with the vet and feel free to print out whatever
you need from fritzthebrave.com. Let us know how Pearl does.

James Perkins, coauthor http://www.fritzthebrave.com
Karen - 20 Oct 2005 23:20 GMT
Wow thanks SO much for responding. I will definitely keep everyone
posted.Yes, I would say she is perhaps moderate (although I *do* believe
seasonality has it's place with her as well.) I *know* smoke is a trigger so
she is never exposed to that, she does sneeze if the deck door is open. She
blows out through her nose like a "huffing" if she is upset by another cat
(which I have never seen another cat do before. I can't tell if that is part
of it, or just some idiosyncratic behaviour) and she occassionally gets a
little bit of goopy eye when stressed.  Well, I will certainly keep everyone
posted. Thanks again :)

> Hi Karen,
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> James Perkins, coauthor http://www.fritzthebrave.com
james@loowit.net - 21 Oct 2005 00:31 GMT
Karen and Pearl,

Kathryn adds: "Asthma is a life long condition. The inflammation is
ever present. It can wax and wane and appear seasonal but we should not
confuse human seasonal allergies with asthma (in cats or humans). The
inflammation will become symptomatic (cat coughs or wheezes or is
lethargic) when the invisible inflammation rises to that crisis stage.
A cat with symptoms is a cat with undercontrolled asthma.

"A cat with known asthma who has not shown signs of it in a long time
is a very well controlled asthmatic and one can be fooled into thinking
they are "cured". We learned the hard way with Fritz and backed down on
his medication.... and after a while, he began to cough again."

So we learned our lesson and just keep treating him. He is a happy cat
now, and that's a relief to all of us.

When we first learned Fritz was asthmatic it was like a mysterious
death sentence. We found that comprehensive information about the
disease and its treatment was lacking on the Internet, and it would
have made our lives and many others' much easier... so as we pieced
together a much more hopeful outlook with Fritz, we had to try and
organize and share what we have learned to ease the communal suffering!
It has been so rewarding to see so many others also studying and
passing along accurate/helpful information and to be a part of that.
Pass it on...

Cheers,
James
Karen - 21 Oct 2005 01:49 GMT
> Karen and Pearl,
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Cheers,
> James

I never thought of that. And, of course, I am not home 24/7. I always
thought "why does this happen on the weekends when the vet is closed",
but in reality, I suppose she may have had episodes when I am gone. She
has woke me up coughing occasionally. I'm very guilty of backing off on
the pred because she is not coughing and goes for some time without it.
The pred just scares me. She is already peeing so much because she is
on lasix and enecard for the heart. The LAST thing she needs is
transient diabetes from the pred. Thanks again for responding.
Howard C. Berkowitz - 21 Oct 2005 00:33 GMT
Good stuff, James. Perhaps I might add a bit.

> By the way, Flovent *is* a steroid ("glucocorticosteroid") -- the
> difference is that it is applied directly to the smallest chambers of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> dexamethasone (popular oral/injected steroids). This is why Flovent is
> 'safer' systemically.

You are quite right that inhaled corticosteroids (I'm using a slightly
different term for reasons I'll explain in a moment) tend to have
little or no systemic effect. With Flovent, there's an additional
safety factor as far as side effects.

There are quite a few corticosteroid drugs.  There are two subclasses
of effect, glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid. In general, these
drugs are used for their glucocorticoid property, which is the
anti-inflammatory action.  Mineralocorticosteroid activity, among other
things, causes salt and water retention, which often is an undesirable
side effect but actually is desirable in some specialized conditions
(e.g., adrenal insufficiency; Addison's syndrome).

Prednisone has both kinds of effect, while dexamethasone is pretty much
all gluticocorticoid. Besides the type of effect, the choice of drug
next involves how much activity it has per milligram or microgram of
weight. This isn't too important with an oral drug like prednisone,
because you can just give more pills. When the dosage is limited by
physical properties, such as the amount that can go into an inhalation,
joint injection, or area of skin covered, you want a highly active
form, such as the fluticasone in Flovent.  These forms tend to be all
glutocorticoid.

Incidentally, there are combinations of fluticasone with salmeterol
inhalation.  Salmeterol is technically a beta-adrenergic stimulant,
which is the mode of action of bronchodilators such as albuterol, but
not theophylline or ipratropium (Atrovent).  Salmeterol's role is
preventive -- in humans, it takes 30 minutes or more to take effect,
and has absolutely no role in an acute attack. It does, however,
contribute to long-term prevention.  Albuterol is quite appropriate to
give as a "rescue" drug for attacks when on salmeterol.

> The enlarged heart is definitely a complicating factor and will be
> important in treatment choices...

With an enlarged heart, you want to cut down the work of pumping --
with enough load reduction, the size may come down.  Fluid retention
adds to the workload of pumping, so the less mineralocorticoid
activity, the better for the heart.  Thus, oral dexamethasone would be
better than prednisone, but inhaled fluticasone, in cardiac terms, is
better than both.

> James Perkins, coauthor http://www.fritzthebrave.com

Thank you.
Karen - 21 Oct 2005 01:46 GMT
> With an enlarged heart, you want to cut down the work of pumping --
> with enough load reduction, the size may come down.  Fluid retention
> adds to the workload of pumping, so the less mineralocorticoid
> activity, the better for the heart.  Thus, oral dexamethasone would be
> better than prednisone, but inhaled fluticasone, in cardiac terms, is
> better than both.

I found an interesting Time magazine article that suggests chronic
inflammation may cause other problems, including heart. Not that that
is here or there, she seems to have BOTH, but interesting none the less.
Howard C. Berkowitz - 21 Oct 2005 02:23 GMT
> > With an enlarged heart, you want to cut down the work of pumping --
> > with enough load reduction, the size may come down.  Fluid retention
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> inflammation may cause other problems, including heart. Not that that
> is here or there, she seems to have BOTH, but interesting none the less.

Not just Time magazine, but the general medical literature, often in
tantalizing ways.  For example, the statin drugs, used to lower
cholesterol and related compounds, appear to give additional health
benefits. Part of that seems to be an anti-inflammatory effect.

I always chuckle when I see references to "strengthening the immune
system", as if that's a good thing. Asthma, for example, is a disease
of excessive immune response, where certain immune reactions cause the
inflammation.  Actually, there are several immune systems that balance
one another.

But yes, the research level is moving into clinical medicine.
C-reactive protein, for example, is being put into general cardiac
health profiles, but also in the differential diagnosis of heart
attack.
Karen - 21 Oct 2005 02:45 GMT
>>> With an enlarged heart, you want to cut down the work of pumping --
>>> with enough load reduction, the size may come down.  Fluid retention
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> health profiles, but also in the differential diagnosis of heart
> attack.

You know, I am reading "The Good Fat Cookbook" and this goes somewhat
with some of the info on coconut oil being a highly beneficial fat in
protecting against cardiovascular disease. It also has
anti-inflammatory properties.
 
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