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What can I do for Baby Eyes?

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Pat - 24 Aug 2004 00:28 GMT
Her skin is very irritated whith scaly sores that never heal, all over her
neck, head, chest and shoulders, and even a little bit on her butt area.
We've tried steroids and Ovaban, anti-fungal and antibiotic creams, various
herbal soothing salves and oils. It isn't a flea allergy because she has no
fleas. It's not mange. The hormone replacement didn't do the trick, and even
when we get the itching under control, the sores do not heal. The local vets
have given up, and I'm about at wits' end over this. It's been going on
intermittently for a year or so and the current round started in June. She's
a mess.

In Chinese medicine the skin is said to be governed by the kidneys. Even
western medicine acknowledges the skin as the "3rd kidney" so I'm wondering
if she might have weak kidneys, and if so, what do I to give her to
strengthen them, or stop giving her to stop hurting them.

Has anyone here dealt with this kind of problem?
Karen Chuplis - 24 Aug 2004 00:49 GMT
> Her skin is very irritated whith scaly sores that never heal, all over her
> neck, head, chest and shoulders, and even a little bit on her butt area.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Has anyone here dealt with this kind of problem?

Skin problems are SO difficult :( I know Shamrock (Cheryl's b & w) has a
terrible time with it but his seem to respond to steroids. Could you afford
to have your vet consult with a university? THere might be other types of
steroids to try. Poor Baby Eyes. That must be miserable. :(
Pat - 24 Aug 2004 01:18 GMT
> Skin problems are SO difficult :( I know Shamrock (Cheryl's b & w) has a
> terrible time with it but his seem to respond to steroids. Could you afford
> to have your vet consult with a university? THere might be other types of
> steroids to try. Poor Baby Eyes. That must be miserable. :(

The vets here say I could spend $15,000 getting a diagnosis and they still
wouldn't be able to cure it.
Christina Websell - 24 Aug 2004 20:23 GMT
> > Skin problems are SO difficult :( I know Shamrock (Cheryl's b & w) has a
> > terrible time with it but his seem to respond to steroids. Could you
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The vets here say I could spend $15,000 getting a diagnosis and they still
> wouldn't be able to cure it.

It might be a dietary allergy.  Try feeding her on only chicken and rice for
four weeks and see what happens to her skin.  Yes, it's hard, she won't want
it every day, but see what happens if you do it.
Don't give in to her if she says she doesn't want it,.just let her go hungry
until she eats it and see if she improves.  There is  nothing to be allergic
to in chicken or rice.

Skin problems are very, very difficult to sort out. but can usually be done
in the end.  Take hope.
It can be dietary, as I said, but can also be do with chemicals used in the
house.  Carpet fresheners, and all sorts of silly things we use to make our
houses clean and smell nice.  Sad to think it often harms our animals.

Tweed
Jeanette - 24 Aug 2004 09:30 GMT
> > Her skin is very irritated whith scaly sores that never heal, all over her
> > neck, head, chest and shoulders, and even a little bit on her butt area.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> to have your vet consult with a university? THere might be other types of
> steroids to try. Poor Baby Eyes. That must be miserable. :(

A recent letter to a UK cat magazine claimed that stopping free feeding had
cleared up a flaky skin problem. The owner started feeding twice a day, and
taking the food up afterwards. The theory was that the presence of food was
a stimulant that caused the skin problems. I don't understand the logic
myself, and it was probably co-incidental, but you might want to try it.

Jeanette
Cheryl - 24 Aug 2004 01:27 GMT
In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", "Pat"
<spam.me.not.pdavis@fidnet.com> artfully composed this message
within <news:eOednVreGPxu4bfcRVn-rw@fidnet.com> on 23 Aug 2004:

> Has anyone here dealt with this kind of problem?

It is just miserable for them! What was the frequency of the
steroid? And was it injectable or oral? I don't like to say
steroids are the answer, but sometimes they are the only thing that
stops the misery. I hate to say it but I wouldn't trade a long life
for a miserable life, so Shamrock is probably doomed to die young
from side-effects, but I've also read that cats metabolize steroids
better than some other animals including humans. During the months
of May/June through mid Fall, Shamrock has to get a jab of Depo
Medrol every other month. During the winter months he can go
longer, up to 3-4 months before he is miserable again. I've tried
giving him vitamins with Omega 3 and 6 essential fatty acids, tried
antihistamines for a while (and a combination of both recommended
on some vet web sites) but they only made him sleepy and so un-
Shamrock-like that it was sad. During the summer months I bathe him
(he actually likes getting baths) alternating Hydrocortizone
shampoo, and colloidal oatmeal shampoo (in the dog section of
Petco/Petsmart; bottle says safe for cats too). When rinsing the
shampoo, use cool water because cool water will ease itching much
longer than warm water. Follow directions because they both will
say it works better if the shampoo is allowed to sit on the skin
for 3-5 minutes.  I use this time with Shamrock lathered up to talk
to him and rub the shampoo in, and he loves this. Like bonding
time. Drying with a towel he hates and will spend the next two
hours licking himself dry.  Shamrock was diagnosed with idiopathic
EGC. (eosinophilic granuloma complex )

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=
2544

Signature

Cheryl

Cheryl - 24 Aug 2004 01:50 GMT
In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", Cheryl
<jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com> artfully composed this message within
<news:Xns954ED01E932F6shads@216.196.97.136> on 23 Aug 2004:

Whoa. I haven't read that article in full before. I'm going to ask
Shamrock's vet about this:

"The second group of "alternative" treatments includes, among
others, the following immunomodulatory drugs (CBC, chemistry
profile and urinalysis should be periodically checked during
therapy):

Cyclosporine A. It is given orally (5-10 mg/Kg every 24 hours) for
4 to 8 weeks then tapered to alternate days. Cyclosporine A is a
promising drug to treat EGC, due to its demonstrated ability to
inhibit airway eosinophilic inflammation in an experimentally
induced feline model of atopic asthma.

Interferon alpha -2a. It may be administered orally (30-60
units/cat per day) for 30 consecutive days, or on alternate weeks.
It has been demonstrated that interferon alpha inhibits the release
of granule proteins from human eosinophils. "

--------
She agreed on the EFA + antihistamine that I read and asked her
about and gave me a dosage for Shamrock; I wonder if she'll let us
try this?

Signature

Cheryl

Howard Berkowitz - 24 Aug 2004 04:17 GMT
> In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", Cheryl
> <jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com> artfully composed this message within
> <news:Xns954ED01E932F6shads@216.196.97.136> on 23 Aug 2004:
>
> Whoa. I haven't read that article in full before. I'm going to ask
> Shamrock's vet about this:

Is there an elevated eosinophil count?  You get a proportion of
eosinophils to other white cells on the CBC, but a quantitative
eosinophil count is a separate and not too exotic test.

An elevated eosinophil count is a nonspecific indication of some
inflammatory process. In humans, one would rule out obscure infections
first, but then the suspicion might go to a cutaneous vasculitis. There
is a human disease called Churg-Strauss syndrome, which is characterized
by the triangle of eosinophilia, eczema, and asthma, sometimes with
kidney involvement. Churg-Strauss isn't curable, but usually can be
managed with corticosteroids and cyclophosphamide plus (probably not
practical for a cat) plasmapheresis.

I'd also wonder about the results of some general autoimmune screening
tests, such as immunoglobulin electrophoresis.  The academic specialists
here might just as likely be rheumatologists as dermatologists, as
rheumatologists are the experts on figuring out WHY an inflammatory
process is going on.

If it hasn't been done already, a skin biopsy might be very informative,
if you can find a dermatopathologist to interpret the slides.
Dermatopathology is a subspecialty even with humans; it's probably wise
to ask the dermatopathologist how the biopsy should be taken and how the
samples should be preserved BEFORE taking a sample. This sort of skin
biopsy is a minor office procedure for humans.

The drugs mentioned below are just a few of those that are used in
combination with, or as alternatives to, corticosteroids for many
autoimmune diseases. In humans, a low dose of an immunosuppressant like
methotrexate allows you to lower the corticosteroid dose.

> "The second group of "alternative" treatments includes, among
> others, the following immunomodulatory drugs (CBC, chemistry
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> about and gave me a dosage for Shamrock; I wonder if she'll let us
> try this?
Linda Terrell - 24 Aug 2004 12:22 GMT
Pity they can't make a Gold Bond powder for Cats.  I've cured
a lot of rashes and skin problems on me with that stuff.

LT
Jean Hobbs - 25 Aug 2004 07:49 GMT
Wow Wow I need to get my dictionary before I read , *or try*
to read any more of this intelligent stuff, where have I been all my life
I couldn't even spell my *wow's* properly that long since I saw  the
it in print, though I can still spell Gee-up.lol   Jean.P.

> > In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", Cheryl
> > <jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com> artfully composed this message within
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> > about and gave me a dosage for Shamrock; I wonder if she'll let us
> > try this?
Seanette Blaylock - 24 Aug 2004 04:35 GMT
Cheryl <jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com> had some very interesting things
to say about Re: What can I do for Baby Eyes?:

>from side-effects, but I've also read that cats metabolize steroids
>better than some other animals including humans

That matches what Felix's TED told us when Felix needed steroids for a
skin problem.

Signature

"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be
doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.

:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL
Jo Firey - 24 Aug 2004 01:34 GMT
> Her skin is very irritated whith scaly sores that never heal, all over her
> neck, head, chest and shoulders, and even a little bit on her butt area.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Has anyone here dealt with this kind of problem?

Have you tried modifying her diet to see if it helps?  Some cats respond
well to a raw diet.  And some pets do better with lamb than with beef.

Jo
Steve Touchstone - 24 Aug 2004 03:38 GMT
>Have you tried modifying her diet to see if it helps?  Some cats respond
>well to a raw diet.  And some pets do better with lamb than with beef.

I was thinking about diet, too. I've never had any problems like
you're having, but my brother had a dog that was allergic to just
about every type of food and his symptoms sound a lot like Baby Eyes,
except he went one step further and pulled out tuffs of fur. Steroids
helped the symptoms most of the time when some ignorant person let him
eat something on the forbidden list - I know because I slipped him
something before I learned about the allergies. A half hour later he
was scratching like crazy and pulling fur out. Once my brother saw
what was going on, and I confessed, he gave him an oral steroid and he
was OK about 40 minutes later.
Signature

Steve Touchstone,
faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Rocky

stouchst@JUNKsirinet.net [remove Junk for email]
Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html
Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

CATherine - 24 Aug 2004 06:20 GMT
>Her skin is very irritated whith scaly sores that never heal, all over her
>neck, head, chest and shoulders, and even a little bit on her butt area.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Has anyone here dealt with this kind of problem?

It could be a food or other allergy. What do you feed her? Years ago I
had my dog tested at the vet college for allergies and found out she
was allergic to 48 different things! They made up a serum specifically
designed for her allergies. she is now free of most of her allergies
and the remaining ones are only in late summer and fall.

--
CATherine
polonca12000 - 24 Aug 2004 17:03 GMT
Lots of purrs and best wishes for a solution to be found for poor Baby Eyes,
Signature

Polonca & Soncek

> Her skin is very irritated whith scaly sores that never heal, all over her
> neck, head, chest and shoulders, and even a little bit on her butt area.
<snip
Pat - 24 Aug 2004 18:32 GMT
I put vitamin E oil all over her sore spots last night and it seems to have
helped a lot. I'll keep doing that consistently and maybe it will clear up!
Karen Chuplis - 24 Aug 2004 19:32 GMT
> I put vitamin E oil all over her sore spots last night and it seems to have
> helped a lot. I'll keep doing that consistently and maybe it will clear up!

Any relief has to be good!
Howard Berkowitz - 24 Aug 2004 20:04 GMT
> I put vitamin E oil all over her sore spots last night and it seems to
> have
> helped a lot. I'll keep doing that consistently and maybe it will clear
> up!

Excellent idea if she allows it! There are arguments both ways in the
medical literature whether it actually reduces inflammation, but there's
zero question that it protects and lubricates injured skin.
Cheryl - 24 Aug 2004 22:46 GMT
In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", "Pat"
<spam.me.not.pdavis@fidnet.com> artfully composed this message
within <news:v9GdnV5j7PGF5rbcRVn-sw@fidnet.com> on 24 Aug 2004:

> I put vitamin E oil all over her sore spots last night and it
> seems to have helped a lot. I'll keep doing that consistently
> and maybe it will clear up!

That's what was suggested to me when I first took Shamrock to foster
him and he was broken out. It does seem to help. Not long-term for
him though. Best wishes and purrs that it makes Baby Eyes feel
better.

Signature

Cheryl

jen - 25 Aug 2004 05:58 GMT
> I put vitamin E oil all over her sore spots last night and it seems to
> have helped a lot. I'll keep doing that consistently and maybe it will
> clear up!

Wow, I was just about to recommend that :)  My mom's dog had sores and
black skin that was terribly itchy and just drove him crazy to the point of
getting quite sick. Tried a million things for years at great expense, but
a combination of simple things ended up healing him almost completely (and
discovered by chance). What worked for her was Vitamin E and hypo-
allergenic dog food. I think with many of these skin issues it can be food
related, and almost a matter of trial and error because they're so
difficult to diagnose. The hypo-allergenic food did the trick. If he eats
regular or people food, the skin problem came back. Of course, I'd check
about recommended vitamin E amounts if you decided to mix it with food.

Best of luck, and so glad you found a bit of relief.

Jen.

PS: the suggestion about raw food is a good one. If you're interested in
that route, check out the Holisticat email list http://www.holisticat.com 
and http://www.escribe.com/pets/holisticat/ -- very friendly and helpful
people who know lots.
Pat - 25 Aug 2004 06:05 GMT
Now she's one very greasy kitty!
jen - 25 Aug 2004 07:21 GMT
"Pat" <spam.me.not.pdavis@fidnet.com> wrote in news:E7GdnYjTGNAZgLHcRVn-
vg@fidnet.com:

> Now she's one very greasy kitty!

I bet!  Those pills are so thick and goopy - but I bet that's the most
effective!  I know cats can ingest it (Kid has taken Vitamin E), although
it's fat soluable so investigating proper doses is important (I think 100
IU/week, but it would depend on the diet).  Might help with the greasiness
though :)

Jen.
Jean Hobbs - 25 Aug 2004 07:35 GMT
Has the vet tried Overid I'm not sure If thats spelt right, but both Zac and
Henri
had to take those, they were white Burmese andsmall clumps of hair would
come out tooand if they weren't taking them at the time, it would deteriate
very quicklybut the Overid would keep it under control one vet I went to
didn't
like using it but he was the only one,I was first told to keep them on it
for life
but when they were loking well i'd give them a break from it and they were
both as fit as the proverbial fiddle,especially Zac, Henri was fit but he
was so laid back you wouldn't realise it people would say he was too big and
lazy to run
but if they saw him run they got a shock ,he was fastthe vets told me it was
a hormone problem,and when you speak of kidney's well Henri did die of
kidney
failure,but not till he was turned 13, and who knows without the Overid, he
might have died a lot sooner, I used to get 8 at a time but they only had to
take a quarter a day and they were not expensive either, I hope this helps
Jean.P.
BTW what breed is Baby Eyes? Jean.

> Her skin is very irritated whith scaly sores that never heal, all over her
> neck, head, chest and shoulders, and even a little bit on her butt area.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Has anyone here dealt with this kind of problem?
Pat - 25 Aug 2004 13:21 GMT
> Has the vet tried Overid I'm not sure If thats spelt right

Ovaban is what we tried.

> Zac and Henri had to take those

Were they boy cats? If so, I'm surprised the vet put them on hormone
replacement!

> BTW what breed is Baby Eyes?

I don't know... DLH, I suppose!
 
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