Whoa now. DO NOT insinuate that rural folks are somehow more capable of animal
abuse than metropolitan residents. That's all I'm going to say. Hopefully.

Sherry

Pleeeaaasse don't go!  I think your calling Joyce an a****** was a bit
extreme, but then, Joyce's characterizations were extreme, too.  Joyce
has a point from the point of view of finding warfare, and therefore,
training for warfare repugnant, but then, most military personnel do
what they do for the common defense, and would consider killing an
absolute last resort.

I think Joyce is an exceedingly intelligent and passionate person,
which is why she tries to get to the root of societal problems by
explaining them at the personal level.  Anyway, I don't want to see
anyone leave, so please stay!

This is probably a useless plea and for not, but please everyone realize
this is a hot button topic that everyone is upset about right now. I can
only hope that you will not leave John, and I'm quite sure that Joy did not
mean that post how you took it (I know I didn't see it that way and I am
from a largely military family) and Victor this is all just very much an
issue that has everyone going for a loop right now. I really hope that the
words exchanged here today do not cause the rift I see forming. We have no
chance for peace anywhere if we cannot see past the heat of a moment.

Karen

John, please don't leave us.  Consider the source and take it with a
grain of salt, please.

Pam S.

And I am very, very grateful to the people who are trained to do this
kind of rescuing and assistance. If I needed their help I would certainly
want them there! You should be very proud of Rob for that.

I don't think that everything about the military is bad. I don't even
think that the very idea of *having* a military is bad, in fact, I think
it is unfortunately necessary. We certainly need to defend ourselves.

And even if we didn't need to defend ourselves from other humans, we'd
still need highly trained people to perform rescues and other difficult
jobs that might require crowd control, relocating people, heavy physical
work, taking dangerous risks, etc. But why would it have to be the
military in that case? Why would you need people who are trained to
defeat a human *enemy* to rescue people from a forest fire?

What I object to is not individuals who are in the military, but to how
the institution is run and what it is used for. And I do think that people
are trained to distance themselves emotionally from the act of killing
other human beings in combat. They *have* to learn how to do that,
otherwise, how could they kill someone? It's kind of like the way that
social workers, suicide counselors, cops, and other people who work with
potentially tragic situations have to shut themselves down emotionally
or they will go crazy. Except that those people are trying to help the
public they serve, and shutting down helps them be more effective. When
you're talking about combat, though, you're talking about *murder*. The
idea that a person can shut down emotionally in order to kill someone
else - as necessary as that might be for their own sanity - makes my
blood run cold.

And that is where I think sadism is allowed to flourish. Given the
right circumstances, people's darker sides can be encouraged. It seems
that war brings that out in people, and that can be tied back to the
warlike mentality that the military is really all about. Without war,
why would we need a military in the first place?

Please forgive me for being so unclear in my first post about this topic.
I was upset about the story (with the kittens) and angry, so I didn't take
the time to be as specific in my point as I should have been. It's clear
that several people took my remarks as meaning that all (or even most)
people in the armed services are sadists. And reading it again, I can see
that it sounds like that. But what I really mean is that I am deeply
suspicious of the way people are trained, psychologically, in order to
deal with combat situations, or even some domestic situations that are
politically charged. This isn't limited to the USA, by the way. (The
original incident that sparked this discussion took place in Australia,
didn't it?)

Joyce

Tanada <tanada@earthlink.net> dumped this in  news:8%7oc.6142$KE6.969
@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net on 11 May 2004:

Support the troops!  A few bad apples can not spoil the cart. I have a few
comments of my own on that whole sordid ordeal, but I'm reserving them for
conversations that aren't archived. *Some* will do what the majority will
not. They will be dealt with as they should be.  

I know we need to drop this thread soon.  And I respect the many sides to
the issues of war and politics.

It is just very hard to read that anyone truly believes that soldiers (and
by extension police) are trained to kill without remorse.

Because they are referring to my father, my husband, my brother, cousins, my
nephews, my daughter's husband, and most likely one day to my grandsons.

Jo

Please don't take anything I posted as anti-Democrat/liberal. I know,
and love, folks who share your views, including my mom and sister. The
running family joke at our house growing up was that Mom and Dad were
wasting their time going to the polls, since their votes just canceled
each out.

Pam wrote:

*Once again* - I seem to have to keep saying this, because people keep
insisting that everyone who criticizes the military also spits on
soldiers and screams "baby-killer" at them or something - I AM NOT BLAMING
INDIVIDUAL SOLDIERS. I am criticizing the INSTITUTION of the military.

Thanks, Ginger-lyn. It really creeps me out when people start calling
lefties and anti-war protestors "terrorists". Forty years ago we were
called "communists". It's just updated jargon for the same old same old.
And you can bet it's no accident. Get people scared, make them think there
are bogeymen under their bed, and you can manipulate them into anything.
I'm sure the current administration would love nothing more than to
dispatch with its critics *and* our freedom of speech, under the guise of
"Homeland Security". First they go after people of Arab descent. Then
it's anti-war protestors. Who's next? Don't forget this famous passage,
written about the Holocaust:

"When they came for the communists, I was silent,
         because I was not a communist;
When they came for the socialists, I was silent,
         because I was not a socialist;
When they came for the trade unionists, I did not protest,
         because I was not a trade unionist;
When they came for the Jews, I did not protest,
         because I was not a Jew;
When they came for me, there was no one left to protest on my behalf."    
                                       -- Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)  

Joyce