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Pua Update

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kilikini - 03 Sep 2005 16:01 GMT
Well, I just got back from the vet and using ultraviolet light it's
confirmed that Pua has ringworm on her face and on her belly.  Sigh.  They
gave me liquid Program® for her to ingest and a shampoo that I can't use on
her until next week.  ($16 a bottle, yikes!)  This is all fine and good, but
I still have to keep her isolated during the entire coarse of her treatment.

They also told me that the spores are microscopic and airborne; they move
with any breeze.  Most likely my other two cats will be infected with me
going in and out of that room and no amount of scrubbing in that room will
remove all the spores for at least 6 months.  Another negative is that even
if the symptoms are gone on Pua, she may be a carrier for ringworm; which in
that case putting her with my other two cats will definitely infect them
anyway.

I didn't know it was such a stickler.  I hate to have an outdoor cat, but I
may just choose this course of action.  I don't know.

Anyone else have solid, good experience with ringworm in a multi cat
household?

kili
Ted Davis - 03 Sep 2005 16:30 GMT
>Well, I just got back from the vet and using ultraviolet light it's
>confirmed that Pua has ringworm on her face and on her belly.  Sigh.  They
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Anyone else have solid, good experience with ringworm in a multi cat
>household?

I had an epidemic last summer - five of the twelve cats got it to some
degree.

My vet is unusually cost conscious - I don't see how he stays in
business being that way - and he told me I could use the human grade
ringworm and athlete's foot creams.  One brand (Lamisil AT -
terbinafine hydrocloride cream 1%) is a once a day for one week
treatment that worked like a charm with no detectable side effects.

Disclaimer: that is a report of what I did, not medical advice - I
always check with my vet before doing anything like that.

Signature

T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu)

Trish - 03 Sep 2005 16:30 GMT
> Well, I just got back from the vet and using ultraviolet light it's
> confirmed that Pua has ringworm on her face and on her belly.  Sigh.  They
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> kili

That's right, let's banish a sick cat to the outdoors, geeesh!
kilikini - 03 Sep 2005 17:18 GMT
> > Well, I just got back from the vet and using ultraviolet light it's
> > confirmed that Pua has ringworm on her face and on her belly.  Sigh.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> That's right, let's banish a sick cat to the outdoors, geeesh!

No, I don't want to do that, I want to help her.  That's why I'm asking for
advice, here.  The vet just scared me silly!

kili
Adrian - 03 Sep 2005 21:23 GMT
> "Trish" <trish738@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> No, I don't want to do that, I want to help her.  That's why I'm
> asking for advice, here.  The vet just scared me silly!
>
> kili

Don't take any notice of Trish, she's a troll, killfile her as most
others have done.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera)
A house is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

kilikini - 03 Sep 2005 21:54 GMT
> > "Trish" <trish738@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> others have done.
> --

Thanks, Adrian.  Jill told me the same thing.  :~)

kili
Trish - 04 Sep 2005 02:04 GMT
Yes Jill would,  she's the queen of this newsgroup in her own little
head, but pray tell, I didn't see Jill post that so tell me now is Jill
sending private e-mails requesting people ban others.  That's a big no
no Jill, something most here claim to never do as it seems to be only
for the lowliest of the low to display that behaviour.

> > > "Trish" <trish738@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> kili
Trish - 04 Sep 2005 02:02 GMT
So, your definition of a troll is someone who calls bullshit exactly
what it is, bullshit.  You're still not over the fact that I called you
a twit lol

> > "Trish" <trish738@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Don't take any notice of Trish, she's a troll, killfile her as most
> others have done.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 03 Sep 2005 20:41 GMT
> That's right, let's banish a sick cat to the outdoors, geeesh!

SFAIK, a cat with ringworm is not exactly "sick", and many
cats PREFER to be outdoors (so long as they have access to
warmth and shelter, along with food and water).  Either you
don't know much about cats, or you simply enjoy being
obstructive and unpleasant.  (Too bad there are other, more
civl, posters here also named "Trish" - when I tried to
kill-file YOU, I eliminated THEM, too.)
Trish - 04 Sep 2005 03:25 GMT
> > That's right, let's banish a sick cat to the outdoors, geeesh!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> civl, posters here also named "Trish" - when I tried to
> kill-file YOU, I eliminated THEM, too.)

I didn't keep the original post so I'm responding to this one, kilikini
I offer my apologies when I read your post, it appeared to me that you
were considering leaving the cat outside til the cat healed, I've seen
this alot and reacted as I did.

As for you Evelyn, I have three cats, all of whom "prefer" to stay
indoors, actually the outdoors scares the sh.t out of them, they were
all rescued from the big bad outdoors, and I've had cats my entire life
so I think its safe to say I know how to care for a cat.  And no I
wasn't being obtrusive or unpleasant, I read more into her post than she
meant.  Let me tell you a story and then you tell me why I hate seeing
cats outdoors.

When I was working with seals we had one of our favourites die suddenly
so we took her for an autopsy (as was our mandate).  After we were
finished the autopsy (she died of a twisted bowel, and I assisted at the
autopsy as I did on all our seals that died).  Well the vet asked me to
help place Emma (the seal) in the freezer until Monday morning as the
autopsy was performed on a Sunday and the company that performed the
cremations did not do their runs on Sundays, plus this was a government
vet area, not a local vet.  I opened the wrong freezer door by mistake
and no need to guess what I saw, literally dozens of cats and dogs
stacked in the freezer waiting for pickup.  I asked Dr. Ron what was up
with that and he explained that there had been a rash of animal killings
in a few small towns outside the city limits the few days prior, these
were all animals from one tourist town and surrounding area that had
been tortured and killed.  It's not a sight I will ever forget.  Oh and
btw this was not a town with high traffic, it was I guess a sleepy town,
very peaceful, more a farming community and fishermen.  So when I hear
of cats and dogs left outside it breaks my heart and brings back that
memory.

In light of this I feel quite justified in commenting when I think an
animal will spend its days outside because he or she is sick or for any
reason.  And no matter how you boil it down, ringworm is an illness, so
yes a cat with ringworm is sick, the degree of sickness was not
commented on by me.  And as you see above I misunderstood kilikini's
words and have apologized.

As for other posters named Trish, sorry as original as I like to think I
am I do realize I have no control over who else posts as Trish.  Trish
is my real name and I post under nothing but it.
kilikini - 04 Sep 2005 12:15 GMT
> > > That's right, let's banish a sick cat to the outdoors, geeesh!
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> am I do realize I have no control over who else posts as Trish.  Trish
> is my real name and I post under nothing but it.

Thanks for the story, Trish.  I wasn't going to "throw" Pua out because of
the ringworm, but the vet had me so scared about infesting my other cats,
myself and my house that I was considering letting her back outside.  I was
still intending on treating her until the condition improved.  I want Pua to
be an indoor cat; one because I care for her too much already to let her
outside to the elements and two because her eyes are so light she shouldn't
*be* outdoors to begin with.  Cats with blue eyes should NOT be outdoors;
their eyes can't take the sunlight.

Trust me, I'm an animal lover.  I'm a sucker.  Cry at my door and I'll let
you in.

I can't have/don't have children so I lavish all the love I would have had
for a child on my adopted "kids".  Animals kind of  know that from me.  I
get followed home a lot.

kili
Dan and Nancy Mahoney - 03 Sep 2005 20:51 GMT
>>I didn't know it was such a stickler.  I hate to have an outdoor cat,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
> That's right, let's banish a sick cat to the outdoors, geeesh!

So she's not allowed to ask for help? How considerate of you.

Sheesh, ANOTHER entry to my killfile. I'm sure glad there's no practical
limit to the size.
Trish - 04 Sep 2005 01:30 GMT
> >>I didn't know it was such a stickler.  I hate to have an outdoor cat,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Sheesh, ANOTHER entry to my killfile. I'm sure glad there's no practical
> limit to the size.

FTR, this would be the second time you've killfiled me :)
Trish - 04 Sep 2005 02:00 GMT
> >>I didn't know it was such a stickler.  I hate to have an outdoor cat,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Sheesh, ANOTHER entry to my killfile. I'm sure glad there's no practical
> limit to the size.

Hey Dan,

I have an idea for you!

How about you go to Houston and pretend to be a victim from New Orleans,
think of all the freebies you'd get.  It's about your style.
Helen Miles - 03 Sep 2005 16:44 GMT
> Anyone else have solid, good experience with ringworm in a multi cat
> household?
>
> kili

Yes. When HRFL had ringworm, my vet told me to buy a tube of Canesten
Anti fungal cream and use it on his face, and my hands after handling
him. It helped prevent the spred of spores. He only tried to lick it off
once, but it tasted so foul that he gave up! Obviously you don't want to
smother her in it, but a thin covering across the worst sores will help
kill it off.

Helen M
kilikini - 03 Sep 2005 17:17 GMT
> > Anyone else have solid, good experience with ringworm in a multi cat
> > household?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Helen M

Thanks, Helen!  I'll try this!

kili
Mogget - 04 Sep 2005 22:46 GMT
>> Anyone else have solid, good experience with ringworm in a multi cat
>> household?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>smother her in it, but a thin covering across the worst sores will help
>kill it off.

I am no expert, but wouldn't sunshine help kill off the fungus?  Or a UV
lamp?

Would shaving her fur off the worst-affected areas allow for easier
application of Canestan and/or sunlight?
Signature

Mogget

kilikini - 04 Sep 2005 23:32 GMT
> >> Anyone else have solid, good experience with ringworm in a multi cat
> >> household?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> --
> Mogget

You would think sun would help, but she's covered.  I'd have to shave her
whole body.  (How do you shave a nose?)  I just can't wait until this whole
ordeal is over.  I hate isolating her, but I feel it's best for all.

kili
Pat - 03 Sep 2005 17:04 GMT
A healthy cat with a strong immune system will not develop ringworm sores
despite exposure to them. So in addition to whatever external treatments you
choose to do, just keep feeding her the best catfood you can afford, and
give her the love and attention she needs to be happy, and she will get well
quickly.
sriddles@aol.com - 04 Sep 2005 06:25 GMT
> Anyone else have solid, good experience with ringworm in a multi cat
> household?
>
> kili

Yes, I do. I must have brought the spores home on my clothing from the
shelter, because Frank got a huge ringworm right above his eye. (same
part of his head he "head-butts" me with)
I completely freaked out, just like you're probably doing, and had
visions of all four cats, DH and me, infecting each other in a
neverending cycle of ringworm.
Well, none of that ever happened. I never did isolate Frank, and he
kept sleeping with me. None of us got ringworm. No one except Frank. My
theory is, some cats (and people) are just more susceptible to the
fungus than others.
That was about four years ago. Haven't had another problem since.
I did follow the vet's instructions, though, and bleached/washed all
the bedding I could, often.

Sherry
kilikini - 04 Sep 2005 12:18 GMT
> > Anyone else have solid, good experience with ringworm in a multi cat
> > household?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Sherry

Sherry, the thing is, she's RIDDLED with it.  COVERED.  Literally.  Head to
tail.  You wouldn't know it, but it showed up on the black light at the vet.
We're not talking one little spot here.  The vet had me totally freaked out.
She said I should disinfect the room Pua's in every day.  Change my clothes
and take a shower after each visit.  She said the room won't be fit to *be*
in for 6 months if and when Pua's condition improves.  So now it's like,
what do I do?

kili
Katrina - 04 Sep 2005 18:49 GMT
> Sherry, the thing is, she's RIDDLED with it.  COVERED.  Literally.  Head to
> tail.  You wouldn't know it, but it showed up on the black light at the vet.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in for 6 months if and when Pua's condition improves.  So now it's like,
> what do I do?

That's how Ming was... it was ALL OVER him.  I didn't isolate him
(couldn't- small house).  He slept on my bed (I did put a white cotton
sheet over the foot area where he slept so that I could change it on a
daily basis). I got a couple of little spots that were easily treated
topically, Boris (the dog) also got a couple of spots, but my son, my
husband and the new kitten were fine- not a single spot on any of them.
I used "common sense" methods- wash my hands after handling Ming, cover
the furniture with easily washed sheets and towels, vacuum and mop
frequently. I didn't (couldn't) completely follow the vet's
instructions for disinfecting the house, since I live in the real
world. I kept things as clean and disinfected as I could, but I didn't
let it consume me.

Keep in mind that the vet is giving you "worst-case" scenarios.  Yes,
it's possible that Pua is a carrier for ringworm.  It's more likely
that the reason she's so infected is that her immune system is
compromised because of her severe malnutrition. As you get her fed and
healthy, her immune system will likely kick in and she'll be fine.

Katrina
Pat - 04 Sep 2005 18:56 GMT
> that the reason she's so infected is that her immune system is
> compromised because of her severe malnutrition. As you get her fed and
> healthy, her immune system will likely kick in and she'll be fine.

That's just what I said yesterday. We've had a few cases of ringworm here
among the horses, but they were minor and did not spread to the other horses
or to us nor to any of the dogs or cats. Ringworm is an opportunist that
finds no harbor in a strong, healthy animal (or human).
kilikini - 04 Sep 2005 23:21 GMT
> > Sherry, the thing is, she's RIDDLED with it.  COVERED.  Literally.  Head to
> > tail.  You wouldn't know it, but it showed up on the black light at the vet.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Katrina

Okay, this is great news!  The vet said that Pua had one of the worst cases
of ringworm she'd ever seen.  If you say Ming had the same, then she may be
okay!  I am SOOOOOOOO glad.  Thank you!

kili
Katrina - 04 Sep 2005 23:29 GMT
> Okay, this is great news!  The vet said that Pua had one of the worst cases
> of ringworm she'd ever seen.  If you say Ming had the same, then she may be
> okay!  I am SOOOOOOOO glad.  Thank you!

Ming's vet said pretty much the same... Ming had lesions all over his
face and neck, some as large as a quarter, others much smaller, but
there wasn't really an area on him that was completely clear.  The vet
was REALLY concerned about me, since I have an autoimmune condition,
and the drugs I take make me susceptible to things like ringworm, and I
was the one who was going to be handling and treating Ming.  Like I
said, I did get a couple of little spots, as did the dog, but on the
whole NONE of the doom and gloom predictions were realized. The kitten
was sleeping with Ming while he still had a couple of spots, but the
Program and the shampoos (by that time I had shampooed Ming at least
3-4 times) had apparently done their job and Buttercup didn't end up
with a single spot.

Katrina
kilikini - 04 Sep 2005 23:50 GMT
> > Okay, this is great news!  The vet said that Pua had one of the worst cases
> > of ringworm she'd ever seen.  If you say Ming had the same, then she may be
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Katrina

Yay!  I am practically dancing!  Thank you, thank you, thank you!  I was
fearing the worst.  I'd kiss you if I could!  Yay, yay, yay!

kili <------------grinnin' like a little kid.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) - 04 Sep 2005 21:08 GMT
> Sherry, the thing is, she's RIDDLED with it.  COVERED.  Literally.  Head to
> tail.  You wouldn't know it, but it showed up on the black light at the vet.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in for 6 months if and when Pua's condition improves.  So now it's like,
> what do I do?

Change vets? ;-)  I know the situation is not funny, but it
sounds as though your vet is more freaked out than you are!
 I really think I WOULD seek a second opinion, before
either going to such extremes, or giving up on the cat as
"hopeless".  (Which it sounds to me as though she expects
you to do.)
Trish - 04 Sep 2005 21:50 GMT
> > Sherry, the thing is, she's RIDDLED with it.  COVERED.  Literally.  Head to
> > tail.  You wouldn't know it, but it showed up on the black light at the vet.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> "hopeless".  (Which it sounds to me as though she expects
> you to do.)

I agree, I'd get a second opinion (even call a vet clinic and explain
your circumstance and ask questions, you can tell then the cat has
already been diagnosed, you're not looking for diagnosis but rather a
routine of cure that is realistic).  It's weird but I refuse to take my
animals to a female vet, they freak over the littlest thing.  I remember
when Sookey Boo had his hemotoma, our regular vet was on holidays so we
saw the female vet there, she freaked quite a bit exclaiming how much
pain he was in and how at his age (16 then) surgery would kill him so we
should consider putting him to sleep permanently.  Needless to say she
was given a piece of my mind and I told her to make the appointment for
the surgery, and that when his regular vet returned we would visit him
and get a final prognosis before the surgery.  Well, Sookey Boo had the
surgery and was perfectly fine.  The panic and stress was definitely not
needed, this has happened many times and I link it to female vets.

Did she think she was helping matters by informing me there was no
chance of the cat living through a surgery.  I can manage to think the
worst on my own without her help!

Kilikini, I agree with Evelyn, get a second opinion and a more realistic
approach to ridding the cat of the ringworm, cleaning the bed clothes
etc, would be a natural thing to do but getting a shower after each
encounter is extreme imo.  And what is the life cycle for ringworm
spores?  Is it six months?
kilikini - 04 Sep 2005 23:30 GMT
> > > Sherry, the thing is, she's RIDDLED with it.  COVERED.  Literally.
> Head to
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> encounter is extreme imo.  And what is the life cycle for ringworm
> spores?  Is it six months?

The vet I took her to wasn't my regular vet, but I could only go on a
Saturday when I could get a ride to the vet.  (My vet isn't open on
Saturdays.)  Supposedly this vet said that the cycle for ringworm was 6
months.  She gave me Program®, which Pua didn't eat although it was mixed
with canned tuna oil, and I can't bathe her for a week until her incision
from the spaying is completely healed.  So basically we all have to suffer
at least another week.  You're right.  I'm going to call my vet on Tuesday
and see what alternative they have.  Thanks.

kili
Jo Firey - 05 Sep 2005 02:48 GMT
> The vet I took her to wasn't my regular vet, but I could only go on a
> Saturday when I could get a ride to the vet.  (My vet isn't open on
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> kili

I don't know if the vet was just trying to scare you into being very
cautious or what.  Ringworm is around.  Dogs and cats and people get it.
Sometimes.  As in exposure does not equal ringworm.

While you can't bathe her, I'd be dabbing at the spots that aren't close to
her incision.

She will be fine with proper care, and so will the rest of you.

Jo
kilikini - 05 Sep 2005 03:18 GMT
> > The vet I took her to wasn't my regular vet, but I could only go on a
> > Saturday when I could get a ride to the vet.  (My vet isn't open on
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Jo

Thanks, Jo.  I'll be working on it, thank you.  The vet just had me scared
senseless!

kili
Takayuki - 05 Sep 2005 06:58 GMT
>Thanks, Jo.  I'll be working on it, thank you.  The vet just had me scared
>senseless!

Ringworm has always sounded like such a pain!  From the experiences
I've read on this newsgroup, it does sound like an annoying thing to
treat, but not much more than fleas or ear mites.
Howard C. Berkowitz - 05 Sep 2005 08:14 GMT
> > > > Sherry, the thing is, she's RIDDLED with it.  COVERED.  Literally.
> > Head to
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> Saturdays.)  Supposedly this vet said that the cycle for ringworm was 6
> months.  

That's misleading right there. Ringworm can be caused by several
different fungi (at least 3), which produce similar symptoms. Since the
treatment will be the same, it usually isn't worth trying to identify
the exact organism, but some organisms are much easier to kill than
others. Pua's response will guide how long to give the treatment to her.

Another protective option includes shampoos for the other cats.

>She gave me Program®, which Pua didn't eat although it was mixed
> with canned tuna oil, and I can't bathe her for a week until her incision
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> kili
kilikini - 04 Sep 2005 23:26 GMT
> > Sherry, the thing is, she's RIDDLED with it.  COVERED.  Literally.  Head to
> > tail.  You wouldn't know it, but it showed up on the black light at the vet.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> "hopeless".  (Which it sounds to me as though she expects
> you to do.)

She had me thinking I should take Pua to a shelter and have her put down!
She was seriously steering me in that direction!  You guys are making me
feel sooooooo much better, you have no idea.  I thank you immensely.

kili
Katrina - 05 Sep 2005 00:39 GMT
> She had me thinking I should take Pua to a shelter and have her put down!
> She was seriously steering me in that direction!  You guys are making me
> feel sooooooo much better, you have no idea.  I thank you immensely.

Geez...  don't do that!  Yes, the cycle for ringworm is technically 6
months, but in reality if you can hit it hard right off (the Program
and the shampooing will help do that ), you can break the cycle. Once
the lesions are healing and you can actually see progress you'll feel
even better about it. I was kind of freaked about it when Ming had it,
but once I took a deep breath and started in, it wasn't nearly as bad
as I was told to expect. Again, I took "common sense" precautions, but
he wasn't in isolation, and I didn't disinfect everything in sight. I
just kept things as vaccuumed/mopped and covered as I could, and washed
my hands after handling him.  Since I'm immunocompromised (I have an
auto-immune form of arthritis), I'm at high risk for contracting
something like ringworm.  As I mentioned before, I got 2-3 little
spots, but they were easily treated with athlete's foot cream (I used
the same stuff on the dog's little spots). It's been over a year, and
we haven't had any recurrences.  I did regular checks on all furred
bodies in the house for about 8 months, but I figure we're in the clear
by now.

Katrina
kilikini - 05 Sep 2005 00:43 GMT
> > She had me thinking I should take Pua to a shelter and have her put down!
> > She was seriously steering me in that direction!  You guys are making me
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Katrina

Okay, once I can shampoo her (she didn't consume all of the Program®) I'll
feel better about letting her be a member of the househould.  I am so
grateful for your contributions towards this conversation.  Thank you again.

kili
Howard C. Berkowitz - 05 Sep 2005 08:11 GMT
> > > Anyone else have solid, good experience with ringworm in a multi cat
> > > household?
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> kili

I haven't finished my research, but it does appear the disease is harder
to treat in cats than in humans. The sources I've read, however, do not
seem to suggest it is quite as contagious as described, although it is
appropriate to sterilize anything that has touched the area: 1:10 bleach
for at least 10 minutes.  I think your vet is overreacting about the
room, but it would be wise to do some protection -- perhaps plastic over
whatever you can cover, and gloves and a washable or disposable gown.

Various shampoos, weekly over a couple of months, seem appropriate.
Griseofulvin, as a pill, has been used, but it is a slow-acting agent in
humans. Itraconazole and ketaconazole can be used either on the skin or
intravenously.  Again, I need to do further treatment.
kilikini - 05 Sep 2005 12:01 GMT
> I haven't finished my research, but it does appear the disease is harder
> to treat in cats than in humans. The sources I've read, however, do not
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> humans. Itraconazole and ketaconazole can be used either on the skin or
> intravenously.  Again, I need to do further treatment.

Thanks, Howard.  I appreciate all your comments.

kili
polonca12000 - 04 Sep 2005 12:36 GMT
I'm so sorry to hear these spores are so stubborn.
Lots of purrs and best wishes,
Signature

Polonca & Soncek

> Well, I just got back from the vet and using ultraviolet light it's
> confirmed that Pua has ringworm on her face and on her belly.  Sigh.  They
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> kili
 
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