So low ash is meaningless? One couple I know said it helped their cat
who was having different types of crystals in the urine. Ash is to be
low, < 6% if the cat has problems? Also magnesium less than 0.1%? but
above 0.05%? About by-products, I asked Science Diet and they said
spleen and lungs, which I thought, not bad, bit rich. I was concerned
about prions and Mad Cow Disease, not that most overfed cats would live
that long. I tried pointing out that cats fed ADEQUATE nutrition!!! but
lower calories would live longer but that's new science, comparatively
speaking. So yes, by-products were good in Science Diet.

One store pushed this. Plus, it just seemed poorly made to me. Just not
fresh. Science Diet although much more expensive, even as dry food,
seemed more "alive" than Nutro which looked like cardboard to me. My
cat hated it. I'm pretty sure it was the Nutro line but not positive so
if I maligned...

Certainly a lot easier for me so I'll check this out.

I would prefer it to be on the web site. I really would.

Not me. Probably talk for an hour.

Very inexpensive compared to Science Diet and the only other one
certified by that vet association for teeth. But Oral Care is pretty
good. Big sized kibble. But it's around 3.9 kilocalories or "calories"
per gram.

Very helpful to know. So they do cats and birds. Interesting. By birds,
I mean they have the Ornithological lab and published the recent
article about the ivory-billed woodpecker. Their chief went out on a
limb about that. Now back to cats...

Helpful info. When I was looking into the RER, Science Diet will fax
that if you ask, but it's off a bit. The Resting Energy Requirements
[RER] which is, tada... By the way, the RER for a neutered feline is
1.2 and 1.4 for intact so that's less than what you are suggesting. I
think your 1/3rd sounds better. Any reference for that?

70 x Weight in kilograms raised to the .75 power.
                                           y
Need a calculator that does x to the y or x

                     .75
So it's RER = 70 x Kg

Kilograms are pounds divided by 2.2046 for those who are itching to
know.

And 0.8 x RER for weight loss but they have these various coefficients
for neutered and so on. How do they arrive at this I would like to
know. Hmmm. Looks impressive but without the science behind it, I
wonder. How many cats did they weigh and what were their criteria?

A 10 pound cat has an RER of 218 x 0.8 = 174.4 calories if aiming to
reduce the cat to 10 pounds, actually, that's a bit high. Their
packages for Light list 160 calories or 50 grams x 3.2 calories/gram
for 10 pound cat. Heh, I'm getting good at this. Now get this, their
Prescription Diet r/d [www.hillspet.com] for weight loss has a range
for reducing goes from around 135.9 kcals - 196.3 kcal for an average
of 166.1. In any case, that's a lot less on the low end but much higher
on the high end - guess it varies depending on weight of cat and the
target but it's not clear without additional instructions. Really have
to cut the calories down to get a cat to reduce. Slowly, few ounces,
4?, per week, and not a lot without a vet, a pound or so, 10% or so.
Need to buy a digital scale, either a postal and put a tray on it or an
expensive pediatric type. My bathroom scale does not cut it. So hard to
just get simple good things, like an accurate bathroom scale. Where are
standards when you need them? Some Tanada scales are accurate. Some
digital scales are a little faked, they just repeat the last weighing
to give an impression of consistancy. I'll find an accurate one down to
0.1 yet. Some day. If money is no object...

Pet Guard does list calories after one converts them down from
kilograms to ounces. Why can't they put the calories on a 3 ounce can
instead of listing it for the kilogram level? But at least they list it
unlike almost all the others. Science Diet does list calories on the
dry food, not the wet food. Go figure. It's about the same for many
cans. 95 calories for 3 ounce can but would be nice to just list the
kilocalories or "calories" for a 3 ounce or 85 gram can. What is so
hard about that? They do that for all other foods for humans. And
obesity is probably the number one problem for all pet owners. Need to
know calories to get a handle on obesity which leads to the
degenerative diseases, diabetes and so on.

Hmmm, will check into that. Depends on the amount of phosphorus and the
ratios.

Science Diet, if you go to their web site, has target pH for many of
their foods, I thought all, but I could be wrong. pH of 6.2 to 6.4 for
1 to 6 years of age. And ph of 6.4 to 6.6 for their Senior line, which
is 7+ years of age. And again, this is for all their foods, including
the regular ones, not just the "Prescription Diet" food. This may be
something recent so it's new and maybe why you have not noticed it.
Science Diet raises the pH for for older cats to prevent different
types of crystals, so it's a tad less acidic 6.4-6.6. 7.0 is neutral.

Really? I'll look into this. Did I have a coupon for this :) Threw it
away.

Amazing how much detail I picked up and my cat is still a little pudgy!
In any case, you gave me some good info and leads, thanks.

That's really bad. I gather 3.5 kcal/g is more accurate than the common
4 kcal/g that I often use and see used on labels? And the same for 8.5
kcal/g instead of the 9 kcal/g? Whenever I checked out human food
labels, they seem to be using the whole numbers rounded up. If not,
then I guess they are using the numbers you're using here?

I found one of our earlier posts where you mentioned protein and cat
food products, as well as ash, fiber and other considerations:

--------------earlier post from you I believe----------------
1. Try to find a food in which the first 3 or 4 ingredients are meat
products.  Foods that have meat products as only the first and second
ingredients could still contain more plant products than meat.
Ingredients
are listed in "descending order of predominance by weight".  However,
the
combined total weight of all the plant products could outweigh the
meat-
even though meat is the first ingredient.

2. Try to find a food with a phosphorus content no higher than .2% 'as
fed'
or .9% 'dry matter basis'.  If you accustom your cat to moderate-to-low
phosphorus diets at a young age, it will be much easier to maintain the
cat
on low phosphorus diets later in life- which will be crucial if your
cat
develops CRF.

3. Try to find a food with an 'ash' analysis of <5%.  2-3% (on the
label) is
ideal.  The higher the 'ash' the less digestible the food.

4.  Try to find a food with fiber content <2%.  High fiber reduces
digestibility of proteins and fats and affects absorption for some
vitamins
and minerals.  A high fiber content also increases fecal volume and
reduces
urine volume which could lead to urinary tract disorders.  So, a food
with a
fiber content of about 1% max (on the label) would be ideal.

Many foods meet these requirements, but the trick isn't only finding a
food
that meets all these requirements but one that your cat will like, too!
You
can make the selection a little easier by putting down a smorgasbord of
4 or
5 foods that meet your requirements and let your cat choose the one she
likes.  Repeat the process the next day but without the food she chose
the
day before.  If she chooses another food, repeat the process the next
day
and leave out that food.  I know this sounds crazy but this is how to
establish a group of foods that you know your cat will eat without
going
through numerous trials.   This way you'll have a group of foods she
likes
and can rotate her diet.  Personally, I believe in rotating foods from
an
early age, this will avoid fixed food preferences later in life and
will
make switching to a prescription diet much easier if the need arises.
Phil
-------------end of earlier post------------------

High protein is good for a cat and does not stress the renal system.
I'm not thrilled about meals and concentrated protein since that is a
bit like protein drinks but that might be my prejudice.

Many cat foods use meat by-products and meals and the marketing against
this might not be anything more than marketing.

I've noticed that Science Diet does not use the by-products or meals
for some of their Senior series which leads me to believe that for
older cats, simpler is better and stay away from the concentrated
by-products or meals. But this may not be true for younger cats where
Science Diet does use by-products and meals.

Currently I'm buying Science Diet Turkey and Gibblets Entree. By
definition, I gather that "Entree" only means around 25% meat protein
as opposed to 95% protein if the misleading [to me] "Entree" is not
used. Apparently there are all these words that have special legal
meanings. For example:

----------------------------------------
http://eattheapple.com/drjean/

CONTENT. The name of the flavor is strictly defined and tells us what
is actually in the food. "Chicken for Dogs" must contain at least 95%
chicken (excluding water). Similarly, "Fish and Giblets for Cats" will
be 95% fish and giblets together, and there must be more fish than
giblets, since fish appears first on the label. If the label says
"dinner," "platter," "entree," "nuggets," "formula," or similar term,
there must be 25% of the named ingredients. That is, "Fish Dinner" must
contain 25% fish. If more than one ingredient is named, such as "Fish
and Giblets Entree," the two together must comprise 25% of the total,
and the second ingredient must be at least 3%. Ingredients labeled as
"with" must be present at 3%, such as "Fish Dinner with Giblets." An
ingredient labeled as a "flavor," such as "Beef Flavor Dinner," may not
actually contain beef meat, but more likely will contain beef digest or
other beef by products that give the food a beef flavor.

WHAT'S A BY-PRODUCT? Even on premium brands, you will notice one of the
major ingredients listed is "by-products" of some sort. By-products are
basically defined as "parts other than meat." These may include
internal organs not commonly eaten by humans, such as lungs, spleens,
and intestines, other parts such as cow udders and uteri, and in the
case of poultry by-products, heads, beaks and feet. By-products must be
from "freshly slaughtered" animals, although there is some question as
to how fresh they really are by the time they reach the pet food
manufacturer.
---------------------------------------------------

Can't anybody just speak the plain truth without having to twist and
bend and adulterate?

In any case, I am feeding my 6 year old cat, female, neutered, 10
pounds aiming for less than 8 pounds, Science Diet Turkey Entree as
well as various Fancy Feast, since you pointed out Fancy Feast is
pretty good now in regards to phosphorus. And especially since my local
supermarket had a special on Fancy Feast for $.40/small can.

I also feed her Science Diet Light and Oral Care. And sometimes Royal
Canin for the slim series. I like this to help clean her teeth after
the wet food.

To expedite weight loss, which is not critical since she appears to
have somewhat of a waist line and I can feel her spine very easily and
ribcage somewhat easily, I'll get Science Diet Prescription Light r/d
in the future.

Since I have been cutting down on her food, she is not so fussy
anymore. I am getting to the point where she may have to earn her food.
That is, I hold out the dry kibble and she has to walk or preferably
jump - some sort of exercise for both of us.