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Shock collars and cats?

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send reply - 10 May 2006 04:52 GMT
I have 2 cats and one of them has been crapping in places for over a year
now.  I have watched the behavior and have it figured out.  The cat pooping
is the dominate cat.  When a few weeks go by, and she is back in the rhythm
of running off the other cat, she will start laying her crap in strategic
(near the food bowls, near the other cats bed, entrance to the room with the
litter boxes, etc.) places.  I can stop this behavior by rubbing her nose in
the mess and swatting her, followed by persistant scolding and intimidation
anytime she tries to act like a boss to the other cat.  As long as I keep on
her case and not allow her to establish her dominance over the other cat,
then the poop messes never occur.  If I try to ease up and give the cats a
few weeks to work things out on their own then the crap starts showing up on
the floor again.  This cycle has been repeated several times.  The cat had
been examined and deemed perfectly healthy.  This problem is purely a result
of attitude and ownership over the other cat.  The only boss in this house
is me and if the cat wants to start sh.tting on my floors whenever she gets
on her power trip then we are going to have problems.  Has anyone here had
any results with using shock collars on cats.  I just ordered one.  My
strategy is to permanately turn the dominance over to the submissive cat.
Basically force a role reversal.  I plan on doing this by shocking the cat
that has the attitude everytime she wants to try to get pushy on the other
cat.  Over time I think the cat will get conditioned to fear the submissive
cat, and actually regress to being the submissive cat herself.  My theory is
that once my problem cat is conditioned to being the submissive cat, the
strategic crapping on my floors will end.  How about it?  Anyone else use a
shock collar?  The collar is small and designed for a 4 to 20 pound dog, so
I don't believe there is a safety issue considering my my cat is 16 pounds.
Just seeking input on training cats with shock collars.  Thanks.
JD - 13 May 2006 00:03 GMT
I believe you're entirely on the wrong track. When a cat marks his
territory, it's natural behavior. It's in your house, but to them, that's
just another part of the jungle. Even if you catch them in the act, when you
rub their face in it, they will not understand. To them, you're just a big
dominant cat that grabs them. Remember that these creatures lick themselves
when they have poo'ed, and sniff each others behinds: they have no problem
with feces. Trying to torture them that way, like you would do with a human
simply does not work, you'll be creating a new problem (I don't know the
history of your 'training' practices, but if you've created a nervous cat
that way, domestication problems might have even arisen from that).

I won't go far into shocking them, that's about the cruelest thing you can
do to a cat. Before you're going to apply that method, ask your vet if
shocking is a good idea. I suspect I know the answer he'll give you.

Instead, I would look deeper into the cause of his behavior. Are you sure
his behavior is territorial? Cats (even neutered ones) tend to -urinate- to
mark territories, not poop. Their natural reaction is even to bury their
poop, actually trying to -hide- the smell. Usually (as was in my case) the
stray-pooping cat has a problem with the litterbox. Is it in a good location
(not noisy, easily accessible, not feeling like a 'trap' where he can't
escape any eventually incoming hostile cats)? Is it clean? Have you tried
different types of litter? Is it scented, too much maybe? If your cat is on
it, does he take his time, or does it seem he wants to be out as fast as
possible? If the litterbox is closed (with cat flap), is it ventilated
enough inside? I once had a closed one, if they went in for a minute their
fur would smell like a zoo for an hour... they won't like that.

Check the link below also, it contains a nice story about the subject:

http://www.nerdbook.com/sophia/article1.html?num=108

One more thing: in my case, the population of cats (some stray cats taken
in) was growing in my home, and one box proved too inaccessible (dominant
cats would block the way to it, by just lying on the hallway floor and
looking mean). This caused a rather messy accident in my bed, on my
person... :) A second litterbox upstairs solved it.
JD - 13 May 2006 00:07 GMT
Oh, and Google has a treasure of information on it:

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=cat+pooping+wrong+place&btnG=Google+zoeken&meta=
send reply - 14 May 2006 07:37 GMT
OH GOD I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN.  This comes from the group that told me cats
will starve themselves to death before eating a food they are unsure of.
HMMM!  I remember when the Vet ordered a food change and the cat went 3 days
without eating.  I was stressing and asking the group for input.  I got all
this crap about phasing in the food and the cat may starve itself to death.
I then consulted my friend (expert trainer).  His advice stood firm-"Never
negotiate".  On the ninth day the cat finally got the message that it would
either eat the new healthy food or die.  Today I have a healthy cat that
eats the new healthy food.

I am not on the wrong track and please do not respond if you do not have the
ability to read and comprehend.  If there is 1 month worth of crap and urine
in the box the cat will still use it fine as long as the cat does not feel
superior to the other cat.  I have had repeated results studying the process
for over a year.  I know what I am talking about.  My cats sit on command.
My cats go to their respective stations when I give the order to "secure
your stations".  When I give the order for "cat inventory" every morning
each cat proceeds to their designated inventory location.  I know my cats.
The problem cat does not sh.t on the floor unless it is on a high for a few
weeks thinking that it owns the other cat.  PERIOD!  As long as I can
intervene and keep the playing field equal, the cat will sh.t in the box no
matter what the condition is.  I have already eliminated all of the basic
first level thoughts on the matter.  I wouldn't have wasted my time here
otherwise.  I almost lay defeated here.  I am beginning to see that I am
amongst a bunch of amateurs that think they know it all while assuming the
rest of us are idiots.  Get over it people.  Cats are beyond creatures that
just like to sh.t eat and sleep.  Why do so many people go thru pathetic
means to esure they do those 3 deeds so well?  If you really care, they are
capable of soooo much more.

BTW this cat is ultra special to me.  It is comfortable around retriever
dogs and I have had success with it fetching and returning small bird
decoys.  The next season I will attempt to train it to tolerate shotgun
fire, and ultimately have it fetch downed doves as I blast them out of the
sky.

> I have 2 cats and one of them has been crapping in places for over a year
> now.  I have watched the behavior and have it figured out.  The cat pooping
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> I don't believe there is a safety issue considering my my cat is 16 pounds.
> Just seeking input on training cats with shock collars.  Thanks.
JD - 14 May 2006 19:11 GMT
If you ask for input on a newsgroup, you run the risk of getting replies you
might not agree with. It's no use asking to 'not respond if you dont
comprehend'. No, I didn't know you've had bad experiences with this group,
and no, I didn't know what steps you'd already taken and no, I didnt know
you 'studied' the problem for a year. You didn't tell me! :) I can't read
minds yet. You told that you believe it was territorial, and after reading
your "reply" I have to say that of course I'm not there to see it as it is,
but I'm still not convinced it's territorial. Cats use urine for that, it's
designed to smell, and other cats expect that. But seriously, consult your
vet about that collar. It might do him more harm than good. If you say that
cat is so special to you, why would you run electrical current through its
body? It just doesn't add up to me.

Me, I do indeed believe eating, sleeping and hunting are a cat's natural
behaviors. I have no idea why people feel the need to change or enhance
that, and train them to do tricks, but that's an -opinion- of mine. Granted,
if man didn't train horses we would not be where we are today. But I just
think that whenever possible, you should leave animals to their natural
behavior.

Well, at least I tried. I hope your cat will endure without too much pain,
and I hope you will have a clean house soon.

Bye.
Heidi Christensen - 16 May 2006 05:03 GMT
Shoking will ONLY confuse the cat and make matters worse!  I have tried
things like that as ONE of my cats kept going after my other!

I was told to get down in his face and shake my hand at him and yell
NO!  I did it but it not only did not work it made matters worse.  NOW
he is terrified of me.

Cat's are not like dogs - they do not associate shocking or hitting
with being "bad".  Keep your cat out of the place where it messes AND
find some cleaner that will take the odor out of the place.

YOU may not be able to smell the odor once you have cleaned it but a
cat CAN and they will keep returning the the same spot and messing
again.  That is simply the way their brains are!

Of course YOU know better than anyone how to make your cat behave so
why ask?  Just kick it HARD right in it's side - with as heavy of boots
as you can find!  THAT way it wont be around long to mess again!
send reply - 18 May 2006 03:01 GMT
That is precisely why you must remove the punishment element as if were
coming from you.  A loud NO and getting in the face is you, and the fear
will develop from you.  The shock from a collar will be generated from the
cats own thoughts, from the cats point of view.  Everytime the cat goes on
the prowl to intimidate the other cat, and starts getting aggressive the
shock hits.  It hits fast and is quickly off as the cat retreats.  The ONLY
thing that will cause the cat to get shocked will be on its own aggression
toward the other cat.  The person will be totally removed from the equation.
Getting in the cats face and screaming has the person directly involved in
the scenario.  No wonder your cats got confused.   So far so good on my end
and there is peace in the jungle.  The couple shocks administered were less
than a second in length on the second lowest setting.  I might add that the
collar was designed to be light weak and small for a 4 - 10 pound dog.   My
cat is 16 and a half pounds.  A minor trickle is not going to harm it at all
according to the vet.

> Shoking will ONLY confuse the cat and make matters worse!  I have tried
> things like that as ONE of my cats kept going after my other!
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> why ask?  Just kick it HARD right in it's side - with as heavy of boots
> as you can find!  THAT way it wont be around long to mess again!
woodysgood - 14 Jul 2007 19:46 GMT
send reply wrote:  I wound up on this web site by searching for a cat shock
collar.  I have only one cat, a five month old Manx male kitten.  Just love
his enthusiasm and wish I had half his energy.  He has learned to play fetch
with a wadded up paper ball that he brings back to me after he has beaten it
up with zeal!  Unfortunately, one of his favorite games is "bite my toes"
from under the bed. Other favorites are "climb up my backside" while I stand
at the kitchen counter making dinner, "jump up and bat me with a sharp claw"
and then run off down the hall, "bite and tug" at anything that hangs or
dangles in the house, "knock stuff off the shelf to play with it" and let us
not forget, "chew on my shoe laces" with the shoes on or off my feet.  All of
his wonderful games, (at least I think these are games), are really a hoot to
see but these antics are also a bit destructive and sometimes a bit painful.
I think???? he fancies himself an attack cat and I am sure he doesn't
understand the negative aspects of his behavior.  All that being said, the
question is what can I do to calm him down a notch or two. Sometimes he is a
snuggler and I would like to have more of that without breaking his spirit.
I have read the responses, in this web page, which run from the vet says a
small shock collar is OK too... you may as well be kicking your cat to death
with combat boots.  Probibly a comment from one of those ninetys, "time-out
for little Billie mommys".  (Don't get me going on the "spare the rod, spoil
the child sermon!)  I think the truth lies somewhere in between those two
thought processes... somewhere between actual current fact and inapropriate
parental upbringing.  I tend to agree with the writer who feels that it is
not a good thing to get close, personal and loud in the cats face as the cat
may only determine that you are a mean person.  I have been given several
alternative discipline suggestions of which my favorites have been the squirt
the cat with a water bottle and the upside down mouse trap techniques.  These
appear to be effective as aversion therapy and I believe they are good in
that the cat doesn't link you to the diciplinary action.  Here is the down
side for me.  I don't like the idea of soaking my leather couch or anything
else of value on which the cat chooses to mis-behave or just to perch for the
moment.  I refuse to jump up with a rag to remove the water I just squirted
on a curio shelf each time the cat leaps up there to play with my breakable
stuff.  I am not a  spring chicken.  To that end I also will NOT move heavy
furniture to find a spent mouse trap.  So just what is my alternative?  Lets
see now...  I want the cat to experience some immediate discomfort each time
he does something he shouldn't do or is where he isn't supposed to be and...
I don't want the watery mess to clean up or the mouse trap retrieval hastle.
What does that leave me?  I believe I will get a shock collar which is safe
and appropriate to the cat's weight and size.  It is either that or purchase
body armor, wire gloves and remove anything of value from the house.  The
idea that if you don’t want the cat to mess with it… put it where the cat
can’t possibly find it is a violation of my homeowners bill of rights not to
mention my common sense!  I hope this works because I really enjoy this
little guy when he is behaving himself.  I do love him and I dont think the
shock collar will cause him physical or mental damage.  I will wait for a few
days to use it so that he forgets it is there and who it was who installed it
around his neck.

>I have 2 cats and one of them has been crapping in places for over a year
>now.  I have watched the behavior and have it figured out.  The cat pooping
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>I don't believe there is a safety issue considering my my cat is 16 pounds.
>Just seeking input on training cats with shock collars.  Thanks.
 
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