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Cat Forum / General Topics / February 2006CAT ATTACKS KID!
We adopted a neutered and front-declawed cat about 2 years ago. He is not a large cat. I also have 3 daughters - 14, 8, and 4. They all love to play with him, but it seems like he is very rough, especially with the 4 year old. It's like she is prey - he will stalk and pounce on her, chase her thru the house, grab and bite her arms and legs, etc. He chases the 8 year old, too, but is not so aggressive towards her. And the 14 yeard old is the only one he will allow to pick up and hold him. The girls all entice the cat to play with them, but then he gets all riled up and really hurts the youngest one. She has scars on her arms. I don't know how to stop this. They girls really do love him, but they egg him on. So, it's a catch 22. >We adopted a neutered and front-declawed cat about 2 years ago. He is not a >large cat. I also have 3 daughters - 14, 8, and 4. They all love to play [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >stop this. They girls really do love him, but they egg him on. So, it's a >catch 22. If they are indeed egging him on, you need to discipline your kids, not the cat. HOWEDY wester, > > We adopted a neutered and front-declawed cat about > > 2 years ago. He is not a large cat. I also have 3 [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If they are indeed egging him on, you need > to discipline your kids, not the cat. PERHAPS THAT'S HOWE COME the kat attacks the kids? Discipline - The "NO!" Command - HOWE Dogs And Children Learn To Tell You "NO!" And HOWE COME They RUN HOWET On You > -----Original Message----- > From: Amanda [mailto:ama...@dcfwatch.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:14 PM > Subject: Re: Discipline > On Tuesday 14 January 2003 20:47, T__ wrote: > funny you bring this up... i met the most wonderful > couple.. man and wife.. he's a dog trainer.. all his life > who uses a technique that is ONLY praise and distraction > with some family pack exercises. >They spent the day with us sunday helping me on my > two pits... one is a protective/aggressive 20 month old > female who is my bubby :) and our 7 week male pup. > anyway.. not only did i nip any and all aggression issues > in mere minutes...he and his wife helped me with my kids. > I was and always have been a spanker. > It is all i knew how.. i never, ever wanted to be.. > but i was. my house/kids were out of control.. > i was always stressed. > Since he and his wife came down sunday we've > had a HUGE change... for the first time the kids > didn't destroy my house before i woke up... my > 3yo was in my bed coloring waiting for us to wake > up... this is the first time she ever used paper > :) she usually does walls, furniture. > Anyway.. he told me to use sound/praise.. and it works. > I have a 6 yo, 3.5 yo who is psycho child :) and a very > bad-a$$ 19 month old. They are all smarter than I am and > know it :) There has not been a temper tantrum in two > days in my house. > You guys have no idea how great this is. > But best of all.. this method does NOT use the evil eye > or a tone of that is in any way short of absolute praise.. > no shouting.. not even a quiet Chloe!.. nada.. ONLY > praise. > They even taught my kids not to take candy unless > i say so.. (my oldest will literally let you pierce her > ears for candy.. > it's been done twice and i keep taking em out) and > now the bag of blow pops i forget on the floor in my > closet (where we keep the girl's dressed) is still there > and NO ONE has eaten one! My 3 yo is even helping > me pick up the house.. the baby took my lingerie chest > apart.. and she cleaned it up! first time! > They don't even go out the open door without my > offering it! they helped me sort laundry.. clean the > living room... im amazed. The 3 yo got some yogurt > from the fridge andwalked to our kitchen table, sat > down and ate it.. she REFUSES to sit at the table > and eat! > We also taught them and the dogs to sit pretty so > when they're climbing on my couch.. i go Can you > show me how you sit pretty?? and they ALL hop > down and show me to sit pretty with their feet NOT > on the cofee table.. hands friggin folded.. i almost > fell over.. > thanks for reminding me to share my joy! > I'm not a spanker! I don't even yell! lol! > here i picked names that shout well and i don't need em!!! > > how old is your bub amanda? waht's the bub doing?/ > > Hello again ladies, > > Amanda, I love your signature. I also do not spank my > > daughter, however, she is at an age where she really is > > asserting her independence. > > Can anyone help with ideas of what I can do? Blessings, > > T. Subject: Re Discipline. Also, SLEEP! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:38:46 -0500 From: Amanda <ama...@dcfwatch.com> > Can you go into this a little more? How did they > accomplish all this in one day? My learning is progressive. I email or call him with questions. But, i'm getting most of it myself. Something clicked. How would we do it with our families? that is kind of broad.. ask me specifics... or i'd still be typing when your kids are in college ;) > I really have problems controlling my temper when I am > already stressed out and then C__ is hurting me: Me too.. i was abused... my mom was psycho... and i had problems with anger.. i took it personally when my 6 yr old wouldn't clean her room... i would sometimes cry is was so strung out.. i didn't wanna spank but i didn't know what to do instead.. so i spanked.. and then spanking didn't work.. and then my dogs went nuts and i called this trainer and he showed me how to do it. pulling my hair, scratching me, slapping me, etc. Mine hit me on purpose alot.. scratching.. climbing on me.. hurting me and then laughing. Now as I post.. please don't think im trying to be a know it all.. i simply wanna relay what i have learned... as it is i've only been spank free for a week now and yell free for two days (my neighbors two streets over are happy :) Children, dogs, people.. they do thinks wrong because it ellicits your ultimate attention. Does your 3 year old enjoy fingerpainting on walls? no... do they enjoy fighting the minute you pick up the phone?? No. They *know* they can command your attention.. and that's what they want. same reason your dogs fight.. they think it is controlling you. Your kids want you watching their every move.. making sure they eat.. dont talk to strangers.. because it means you are watching THEM and not them watching you as it should be. they should stay within x feet of you.. because they like mom and she's cool and she keeps em safe... they shouldn't run and expect you to chase them.. because you won't always be there to chase them... that's how kids die or get lost. When they learn to follow you.. it's all good. Now, take my 19 mo old. She had this habit of sipping 4 oz from her bottle and demanding more. if i didn't refill it.. she threw a hgue fit. Now she hands me her bottle and says more.. and i tickle her... then i pick up her bottle and pretend im drinking it.. i offer her a drink and snatch it back saying MY Baba!! She wants that bottle.. so she takes it and drinks it.. even tho i didn't refill it. we had a huge problem with them taking things they cant have and when i wanted it they ran... now i give the baby (19mo) my finger.. and she grabs it.. and i wiggle and shout My finger! that's mine! Gimme it back.. playfully.. and she resists.. and i go "Ooh.. can i have it please?" and she gives it to me and i gleefully say Thank you! and she says you're welcome.. and i give her the finger back... then i hand her say a lighter... and we wrestle for a minute.. and i say... can i have that??? and she gives it over etc. Of course sometimes she'll have a cool! book! and ill ask can i have that.. and shell say No. and i say that's ok! and tickle her or snap my fingers and say good girl naya.. good job.. then ill start my game again and wrestle and try to take it gently... then.. can i have that??? she gives it over. this works with everything now. > Or when he's ripping up my homework or something like > that. Yea... with the dog training you hide nothing.. no forced control. you set the dog up for fail.. so you can distract and praise and erase the thought.. same with the kids. Put some unimportant paper all over.. when he goes to touch it.. make a sound and distract him.. then good boy, that's a nice baby!... then repeat.. the minute he goes for the paper and breaks the thgouth you throw him in the air and praise like mad! > How would I apply this in those situations? Also, what do > you do in 'danger' situations (until you're close enough > to distract them) - climbing on things, sticking metal > objects into electrical outlets, trying to get into the > oven, etc.? Use your judgement.. if you have the distance/time to distract... do it.. if you don't... pick them up and away.. but act like it's to throw em in the air.. so they don't know youre forcing control by phsycially removing them... cuz when you force control.. with the come command when you want your dog away from something... or when you pull a dirty shoe from your baby's mouth.. you put value on it. Like when your kid puts a penny in its mouth.. youll try to pry its mouth open to get it... and he'll clamp right down.. you gave that penny VALUE! it's not just a piece of crap.. mom WANTS IT! so.. instead you make a game.. say you want em to smit it out... walk somewhere else... attract their attention.. be kinda sneaky... odds are the thing in their mought will get annoying and they'll spit it out when they walk toward you... if all else fails.. pry it outta their smiling jaws... snatch em up away from falling down... but only when you have to.. then work realy hard to overcome that forced control. Also don't make a big deal about it.. or else theyll learn not only to command your attention, but also mom will always catch me so she is watching me.. not me watching her. > I never realized how spirited C__ was until I started > tending other kids. those are my kids. I have had social workers with their degrees in child development stop offering me services cuz they couldn't handle my kids... my friends call mine the obstinate kids. > They're docile kittens compared to C__! This brings up > another question - what do you do when YOUR child is the > bully? if you catch it before it happens.. loud sound.. big distraction and PRAISE. if you catch it afterward... distract and say oh my goodness! and pay attention to the other kid... he wont get the attention... then explain how that hurts. odds are your kid won't hurt another kid if he truly understands its not nice. > C__ is always beating the other boy over the head when he > comes over. > We don't hit in anger in our family i have.. everyone does in my family... i did it a few times over 4 years... but that is because i didn't know how not to. i know now.. and i wanna tell everyone i can.. so someone else doesn't spank their kids due to a lack of knowledge. > (we do it playfully sometimes, so we are curtailing that > in case it is giving him ideas) my kids, 6yo, 3yo and 19 month old, favorite game is chasing around the house (all 4 of us) with wooden spools yelling at the top of our lungs "I'm gonna beat your a$$.. HA HA HA... no IM gonna beat YOUR a$$ MU HA HA HA" my neighbors prolly think im nuts.. but the kids love it dog even plays too > but I admit that after I have been trying to get him to go > to sleep for 45 minutes, I get a little rough sometimes. > It's really frustrating. He'll be dead tired - eyes > bright red, fussy, eyes almost closing every 5 seconds. It gets worse... they all do it around that time.. they don't want to sleep.. andyou know what? they don't grow out of it until they're parents :) it's one of those times you have to use your patience and keep distracting and praising. > So I'll take him into the bedroom, and lay down to nurse > him. He'll nurse for about 5 seconds and then jump up and > run to the window and start bending the blinds. he wants you upset.. he wants your undivided attention. you have to refuse it.. no evil eye.. no "conner" quiet or not.. no anger.. complete nonchalance.. they have to have a total complete entire lack fo negative attention.. and all they'll be able to do is sit back and enjoy the positive! One shout.. one name call.. one No! and it takes awhile to work up to the positive only. > So I gently pick him up and lay him back down. try not to.. but if you have to ok > And we repeat the process over 10000 times. when he goes to sit up.. when yous see the thought on his face.. distract with sound and follow with praise or a song or giggle. > Then I get frustrated and lay him down less gently. better than my method of plop em in the crib and let em cry. No anger.. stay calm.. meditate, pray.. breath.. try to remember they will not always be this small.. and youll never, ever for anything get it back. it's what im using > That makes him cry, which is the last straw that > FINALLY gets him to nurse to sleep. He got you riled up.. what he wanted.. time to sleep. > Writing it out, I thought of something. He must have a > lot of excess tension he needs to release before sleeping, > and finally crying releases it for him. no way... crying isn't a release.. sometimes.. maybe for some people.. crying is frustration, pain, hunger, sadness... sometimes joy.. sometimes tension.. but not because of his life.. because he's insecure... their dealing with negative and positive.. and thats what makes em insecure. > Any good ways to do this that don't involve crying? distraction and praise.. if all else fails get up and dance.. fast for day.. slow rocking at night. > Turning on soft music and swaying in the sling used to > work for us, but now he either grabs at everything he can > reach or bends over backwards until he's hanging upside > down. cuzhe knows what you're doing. hold him instead.. or sit him in your lap on the bed and rock > Putting the sling over his shoulders to prevent that > doesn't work either. He acts like he is being tortured > and screams and fights to get out. becuase it is forced control. > Katie Amanda HOWEDY usutle0, > We adopted a neutered and front-declawed cat about 2 years ago. Surgically sexually and digitally mutilating critters makes them fearful and aggressive. > He is not a large cat. I also have 3 daughters - 14, 8, and 4. > They all love to play with him, but it seems like he is very > rough, especially with the 4 year old. It's like she is prey - > he will stalk and pounce on her, chase her thru the house, grab > and bite her arms and legs, etc. He chases the 8 year old, too, > but is not so aggressive towards her. All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. > And the 14 yeard old is the only one he will allow > to pick up and hold him. The girls all entice the > cat to play with them, but then he gets all riled > up and really hurts the youngest one. You can train him not to do that in minutes if you study and follow the INSTRUCTIONS in your FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual: <{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}> > She has scars on her arms. No problem. > I don't know how to stop this. It's all in your FREE manual. Just substitute the words kat kitten or child for dog or puppy and EXXXTRAPOLATE on the METHOD to suit the critter. > They girls really do love him, but they egg him on. They're PLAYIN. The kat don't know that till you TEACH him they're SAFE to play with. > So, it's a catch 22. No. Subject: End Of Catch 22 = Re: New Puppy - but we both work, what's best "get adjusted" strategy??? HOWEDY Dave, > Thanks for the links. "Beware the Greek bearin gifts." > This is exactly the type of info I'm seeking. Your new found friend disciple jeffie is a hipocrite. He's giving you a bum steer, Dave. Before you waste your precious time goin to the links from the organizations which KILL DOGS and disposess them from their HOWESE because of inappropriate and ineffective methods, I highly recommend you give this post a REAL CAREFUL READ: HOWEDY Kaeli, > And on the day Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:06:04 -0500, > jho...@bellsouth.net enlightened us with > <AoEE9.54510$%j3.12...@news.bellsouth.net>... "INCREDIBLE, UNBELIEVABLE, AMAZING, MIRACULOUS" results and countless testimonials like "JERRY'S METHODS SAVED MY DOG'S LIFE." > > HOWEDY kaeli, > Hi! Having read ahead, WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAININ. > > > > Because it takes only a few minutes and a few > > > > repetitions to extinguish any behavior. > > > Will any distraction work? Say a set of keys > > > instead of a can? > > Yes, so long as the distraction is brief and random and > > instantly followed by prolonged non physical praise. > I tried this with her constant need to lick, That sounds like an OCD behavior. OCD behaviors are caused by stress. Doesn't take much stress... > and I'll be darned if it didn't work. Of course. But we've also got to address the etiology of the behavior or the symptoms will only change to other, possibly worse, seemingly non related trainsfer or replacement behaviors. > as I am now reading that manual over and stopping all > obedience work until I'm done with it. Good. I'll be glad to help you through any difficulty you may encounter. > Just yesterday I put her on a flat collar and stopped all > corrections. Good. > Praise only. It'll take a couple days before the dog really believes he can't get "corrected" and then he'll start to trust you and begin to want to do everything you ask. > At first, she was quite confused. For SHORE! The dog is not going to want the "new deal," cause she'll think she's being 'set up' to take a "deserved correction." That'll take a couple days to expiate. > Today early, she was taking advantage and being bratty Dogs don't do "bratty" no MOORE, they only do "dog...," right? > (chasing the cat, Distract/praise and follow the techniques. > getting into things, etc). Same same. Everything is always the same here at Wits' End. Nothin ever changes but time and names. It's all the same same. All behavior problems are basically the same, they're just wearin different clothes. Like Your Puppy Wizard is the same same whether sittin right here stark ravin nekkid or givin press conferences where we'll be DISS-CUSS-IN training, trainers, behavior, behaviorists, rescues, shelters, and of curse, PETLOSS. > Now tonight, Tomorrow nite would be MOORE better for a candlelight memorial for our DEAD DOGS we've entertained on our forums, thanks to our koehler, shock, and pronged spiked pinch choke collar crate chin chuck and scruff shake fans. ed w will be hostin the service at http://www.petloss.con Don't forget, eddie likes fifty dollar denominations, makes the trip to the bank worthwhile... > having received no corrections Corrections only alienate and terrify our dogs and reinforce their ability to command 100% of our undivided negative attention. > for her brattiness, You mean for her ordinary, normal, predictable, innate, instinctive, reflexive, doggy responses to situations and circumstances of their environment which we provide for them..., don't you. > only the sound (my keys) and praise, Just make SHORE the sound is brief, never from the same direction twice in succession, and always, instantly followed by prolonged non physical praise. > she's starting to get the picture. I think I am, too. You'll do just fine now, I think. I'm used to gettin burned by our dog lovers who tell us they're "trying" my methods and then tell us they don't work because dogs need corrections... like krisHURT who sez my methods are cruel, and hypocrites and liars like lush and roo, professor SCRUFF SHAKE and Master Of Deception blankman, for example. Our ed w's, karen craven's, candace's, and gentlemen jack morrison's are a different matter altogether and should not be forgotten for all their help, People... Let's start savin our pennies to support PETLOSS. > > > In fact, it's the only way I've managed Sammie's intense > > > desire to bolt up to and jump on people. She loves people. > > > I make her sit and she can't jump as long as she's sitting. > > > But you can tell she still wants to. > > Right. What you're doing does not extinguish the desire or > > anxiety involved with the behavior. In fact, training an > > incompatible behavior is time consuming and may be stressful > > for everyone. > I am seeing that. Good. That's HOWE COME you don't be seein my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method students here on our forum after they write in sayin "THANKS JERRY!" > I'm going to try it with the sound. It stopped her incessant > licking (when you pet her, she licks and mouths your hand) > within 5 minutes. Excellent. Soon it'll work on the first or second distraction and soon thereafter the behavior will completely diminish. > She has not relapsed yet, which is already a big thing, > since it's something she's always done. Exxxcellent. I'm SHORE ed w of http://www.petloss.con will be thrilled for you and your dog. Be SHORE to let him know at the cyber memorial we'll be havin for the DEAD DOGS he's killed when he's talked their people outta studying my methods by his lies. > I've never gotten her to stop for more than a few > minutes, much less two days. Yeah. Be SHORE to let roo (alikat) know. She seems to like to tell folks my methods are dangerous and ineffective... > So I'll see if it stops her need to jump, too. You could use my Beans & Beer method for that... Ask krisHURT. She knows HOWE the B&B goes. > > Good. It's a bit of a stretch to see things > > HOWE your dog does. > I'll say. EXCELLENT. Perhaps you'll give it some serious thought and let us know what's goin down as you reassess your beliefs about dogs, trainin, and behavior. > Not only seeing things from her POV, but changing my > thoughts, too. Yeah, every thing is different here at Wits' End, till it all becomes the same same. And then you wonder what was the problem in the first place... > I am having to retrain my thought process more than > anything with this. Of course. Everything you've been taught was to intervene and control, instead of allowing the dog to learn and experiment and distract/praise undesirable behaviors till they're extinguished, instead of trying to correct behaviors and inadvertently callin our attention to the dog's negative attention gettin tactics. > My first response is to say "no" and give a correction. Right. Your dog would LOVE to engage you in chasin him around the HOWES with some forbidden object in his mouth and make you watch him every time you got somethin you NEED to be watching besides him... > Stopping that response is actually not an easy thing to do. Yeah. And it's very dissatisfying when we're used to givin the "slap and cookie" of traditional corrections. > Makes me think first, Yeah. We can NEVER go wrong with PRAISE FIRST. If it fails, we can always interrupt the behavior with a brief variable sound instantly followed by MOORE praise. > which has got to be a good thing. Indeed. As you learn to break your reflexive responses to your dog's inappropriate behaviors, he'll learn to break his habit of giving you inappropriate behaviors to incur your undivided attention... That's the end of Catch22... > LOL Ain't it. > > > She loves people. And she'll get even MOORE loveable as she learns to relax and greet folks appropriately. > > Excellent. A lot of excitement over making introductions > > can be simply stress from pryor difficult meetings where > > stress was incurred. > And I bet it is stressful for her, now that > I'm thinking this way. Yeah. You're beautiful. You got it now. You can't go back. > She meets someone and the first thing that happens to her > is a correction for jumping. Right, as our experts sez, cause we can't allow BAD behaviors... it's EMBARRASSING. One fine day, giving corrections will be MOORE than EMBARRASSING, it'll get an appearance in front of a criminal court of law. > She whines and wiggles - that has to be stress, doesn't it? INDEED. > > Right. Any time a consistent behavior can be predicted > > means we can set it up to be distracted and praised in > > several successive successful repetitions to fully > > extinguish it, EZ. > She'll be the easiest to set up, too. INDEED. Like our dog lovers and experts here... > She's very predictable. INDEED. > > > That's what the leash is for. > > No. Cause when you force control you trigger the opposition [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > worse, seemingly non related behavior problems as trainsfer > > or replacement behaviors. > Like when dogs (puppies) first get a collar and lead > and feel the pull and go crazy trying to get away? Right. We can't restrain a dog on the collar without over stimulating them. > > That's HOWE COME I don't give advice for individual > > behavior problems. To cure all behavior problems we've > > got to learn the basic handling techniques like not tellin > > the dog NO or forcing restraint to control the dog and > > never having any negative associations or bribery to > > diminish your authority... > Speaking of negative associations, I must add that with > only two days (less, really, a day and a half) Sam is > already maintaining more eye contact and relaxing closer > to me. INDEED. And it keeps gettin better an better every day. > That is, instead of laying across the > room, she lays at my feet. For SHORE. Every contact or lack of, is intentional. When your dog accidentally steps on your foot or knocks into you or knocks sumpthin off the table with her tail, she knows it, it's not an accident, it was an on puporse, a statement. > > > Okay, say I have Sam off lead. I want to teach her the > > > come command. > > Be a little late teachin the come command, if you ask me... > Why? Can't this technique work on all dogs regardless > of age or history? Of course. > Or am I missing the point? Well, if your dog isn't trained to come, we can't depend on her coming unless we can control her. That takes learning HOWE to handle the lead so we're not over stimulating the dog just to get to the point where he's not paying attention and can be asked to and enforced, to come. We've got to do some conditioning FIRST, to make SHORE the dog will pay attention to us, even if he doesn't respond to the come command (as expected) until it's fully installed as a conditioned reflex. > > > How can I teach her that if the distraction of throwing > > > the can (or keys or whatever) doesn't get her attention? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > a few puperly performed instances of following the EZ > > instructions. > If I begin fresh, can I now do these in order? Absolutely. The method relies on "fresh starts" any time we get bogged down behind a problem behavior. > We do an exercise close to the Family Leadership often, O.K. But "close to" often doesn't entail the essence of the method. "Close to" leaves variables which can confound being able to control the exercises to insure consistency and may subvert the method, as we're not doing anything by coincidence here. Every thing is measured and timed so I can work the most difficult behaviors or advanced training problems from sittin right here, stark ravin nekkid. > and the Hot and Cold sounds like my normal daily outing. I suspect what you're doing is the "make like a tree" act to teach heeling pupularized by dr ian dunbar... The idea is erroneous at best. He's using the "make like a tree" idea to force control of the dog pulling on lead, not to command the dog's attention and shut him off from all other distractions or interests, except the handler. Slight irregularities like this are what makes the difference between nearly instantly successfully training the dog, and fighting with behavior problems for weeks and months and years, as our dog lovers here have been kindly enough to ARCHIVE FOREVER right here on Your Puppy Wizard's dog behavior and abuse forums. > The eye contact I am currently doing. EXXXCELLENT. Your Puppy Wizard can hardly wait till HE has EYE CONTACT with our dog lovers on the national media and in person in civil courts of law seeking retribution for intentional malicious slander and libelous acts our dog lovers have sunk to, in order to defend their miserable lying dog abusing reputations and careers from EXPOSURE by Your Puppy Wizard. > Should I stop the others until the eye contact is perfect? That should only take a short while casually sittin around your HOWES, stark ravin anyHOWE you'd prefer... > > > She will come when called at any other time. Not good enough for Your Puppy Wizard. 100% total instant reliable come, is the only passable answer here... > > Well, we don't want to start off calling her because > > we already agree calling the dog will not break the > > dog's THOUGHTS of the undesirable behaviors. > So the distraction then? Followed by praise? > Should I call her at all or just distract her? That sounds like you may still be confused a little. I think you're trying to think of two different things, teaching and breaking a behavior, as the same. > > > Don't those Flexi's put pressure on the dog's collar? > > Hardly moore than the weight of a length of rope. > > > Or is that just the doofs I see walking using them wrong? > > Probably so. > Yeah, they must be, because those dogs pull like crazy. Right. That's from trying to force control instead of commanding one eye and one ear, as it sez in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual... you know, the one our dog lovers tell newbies, is FOR SALE. > Opposition reflex in action, that's for sure. Even MOORE. What we're seein is our dog lovers intentionally lying to defend their miserable abuses. Ask ed w about the liars we got here on our forums. > > > I use those long leads and let them drag. > > Because her come command fails with squirrels... > Yeah. :) Not to worry. That'll take a few days to break. > And the leash laws that require it. That's gonna be a whole nuther story... It'll be very interesting reading for folks to learn our breed fanciers, rescues, and shelters are responsible for the inappropriate dog laws we've got. > We have to have them here, even if the > dog is an angel in fur. Well, Your Puppy Wizard believes laws are made to be changed. > I live in a condo, so no yard. No problem. We shouldn't need laws to govern human decency and respect for our neighbors. > > > How can you condition the behavior if the dog has not > > > reacted and is still barking at the fence? That's EZ to do. Just follow the technique. You could praise and casually walk up behind the dog and snap your fingers on one side of his head and praise, and then the other, and then ask for a come command, and probably get it, and then RETURN to the fence for another opportunity at breaking the aggression. But you got to be fast, and think ahead, cause we want to catch the dog's attention just at the instant he thinks of bolting aggressively... > > Because we're working with the thoughts, not the body. > > By the time the body responds to the thought, the thoughts [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > he will, if we just follow the techniques as we've > > conditioned the dog. > Yeah, I think I do get it. Good. You'll do fine if you follow the techniques and ask me for help if something doesn't work right. > If you are only a positive thing for the dog, > not someone who does negative things, > he won't have any stress about responding > to you. EXACTLY. Dogs want to work for their pack. All we got to do is make our pack goals the same. > He will already want to come to you and get praise > and pets, knowing he will never be corrected. Yeah. Trust. That means when something is scary, the dog will TRUST US when we tell him it's O.K. > I also think I'm going to have to recondition my > thinking patterns for this. *G* I hope you'll share your thoughts on all this. > > > Or am I misreading? > > I think you're catchin on. If you do catch on, you're not > > gonna be real pupular around here no MOORE... > I'm not popular now. Wait till tonite... > LOL BWWWAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAAA!!! Wait till eddie and roo sees this thread. dermer will no doubt have a case of the hershey squirts like his little pal sindy sadist mooreon of our faqs pages at k9 web. Ouch! This is gonna HURT. > I come with an open mind and a desire for a healthy, > happy dog. And after all this bullsit, you finally got it. Welcome! > If I get awesome results That's GUARANTEED. You don't think I could come in here and make our experts crap themselves on LUCK? > with pure positive training, Our captain haggartey, janet boss, harold hanson, and company sez that's IMPOSSIBLE... > why wouldn't I use it? Well, you don't have a career of MISLEADING people and hurting and killing their dogs...to protect. > This mindset change will be way harder for me than > for her. IMAGINE. Our dog lovers refuse to believe my students testimonials. They call my student's posts FORGERIES, PAID SHILLS, and LIARS. > I'm already seeing positive benefits. INDEED. It's GUARANTEED. It's "in the book." > And I just started. INDEED. It keeps gettin better an MOORE better. > > > I'd love to feel 100% control with no leash. You will, in just a few days. > > It'll take you a couple days, maybe four. Takes folks > > with a lot of experience a bit longer than new students... > Yeah, we have to drop all our habituated responses > of correcting the dog. EXACTLY. And likewise for your dog, so it's a two way street. > That has not been easy. The hard part is OVER. Ask mikey dufort about gettin over it... Oh? That was CRINGING when you hurt your dog that you'll get over. So sorry. :) > > > I'd never trust her off lead around a lot of distractions. Soon you will. > > Not till you're the most significant attraction in her whole > > wide world. Ought to be EZ. Just never tell her NO and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > if you need any and your dog will naturally want to do > > every thing you ask, cause THAT'S the nature of the beast. > I think I'm really starting to see why she's so distracted - > when I correct her all the time, but "strangers" never do, > why wouldn't she want to go to them? That's another part of it, for SHORE. The dog may learn he's protected in the presence of others, once he gets through your initial efforts to force control. > Same with other distractions, I'm sure. EXXXACTLY. Soon as we tell the dog "YOU CAN'T!" the dog sez "You mean do THIS???" > > > If no petting, why not? Curious - > > There's been a couple threads about that. Our dog > > lovers try to make folks think that means NEVER > > pat your dog. Our dog lovers will intentionally > > misconstrue every thing me or my students say > > because they PREFER to force hurt and intimidate > > their dogs. > So just don't be all exuberantly petting them while > they're thinking because it becomes a distraction, then? EXXXACTLY. > Now that I think about it, if I was trying to think and > someone gave me a hug, I'd lose my focus. That'll be O.K. for this instance... <HUG!>. Now let me get back to work.... > I'd be thinking about the hug now, not what I was > doing. Is that right? Don't bother me, I'm sittin here stark ravin nekkid trying to teach folks HOWE to train their dogs. I don't got time for hugs... > > > That the command is pleasant? EVERY THING is pleasant at Wits' End... > > That's VITAL. Isn't it, kaeli? It is for Your Puppy Wizard and his kin. > Yes, I suppose it is. Of curse. > Otherwise it becomes stressful, right? And we know stress KILLS. > Then they can't think. That's right. Stress makes us stupid, inconsiderate, careless, and ineffective. > > The problem is you want to SEE something happen > > instead of setting things up to let them happen. > Another mindset thing I'll need to change. Right. Behaviors are flexible and EZ to condition and habituate. There's NO SUCH CRITTER as behavior problems, only ineffective methods of dealing with undesirable behaviors. > Over-analyzing. The doubletalk around here is what keeps our experts IN BUSINESS. > > > They are precise, but they don't explain well. > > Yeah. That's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. > This conversation is clearing up a lot. Good. I'm SHORE ed w of http://www.petloss.con will be THRILLED to put YOU on his list of LIARS. > And I re-read it (almost; I'm to the last part) and > picked up some stuff I missed the first time about > it opening up the dog's mind, Yeah. Dog's intelligence increases as we challenge behaviors and allow learning to take place. > not just making it an automaton. EXXXACTLY. Won't take you long before you FEEL the connection and your dog will TUNE IN to you all the time. > Which I liked, by the way. Of course. Only the very best for my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual students. > > > > Perhaps. Does she come instantly the first time every > > > > time? That's what The Puppy Wizard expects. > > > No. I'll admit it. But I'd like her to. *G* > > Do the exercises and she will. Don't skip anything and > > ask me for help if it's not going along as instructed. > I'm going to start from the beginning. Good. You're welcome to call my toll free number to discuss anything you have difficulty with. > I think I need to regain my dog's trust. It's already done. Now all you got to do is be consistent and it'll continue to grow. > > > Allow the dog a choice and she may choose to play in > > > traffic. > > If we failed to make ourself MOORE attractive than the > > street. Or if we've failed to teach the dog the street. > > Dogs can learn to cross streets just like kids do. Dog > > can even GUIDE people across streets. Dogs can > > learn any behavior we wish, so long as it's in the ability > > of their body to perform it. > I think this is again the trust issue. Right. > I've used corrections, So it'll take a couple days for her to get over it. > and thus am not a safe space for my dog. Nothin's set in stone except the results my methods offer. > Nor even the most pleasant space. That's already changed, I'm SHORE. Our friends will be thrilled to hear that, no doubt. Let's see what eddie and roo got to say when they read this thread... > > > Quite possibly. > > No doubt. Let's not make dog training a personal issue. But don't let me be taken at my word for that, there ARE a couple personal issues the BIOSOUND Scientific Elves are breakin my goddamn arm over... distasteful things Your Puppy Wizard would prefer not to have to deal with. > That's probably another issue right there - the trainer > (i.e. me) is stressing because the dog should do something. NO PROBLEMO!!! That's GOOD! Let the dog work it out. > The dog feels the stress and responds poorly... Right. That's HOWE COME we don't get involved, just distract/praise till the undesirable behavior is no longer attractive to the pup. Usually doesn't take but a few minutes. If it don't work, it's probably cause we're frustrating the dog by our overly controlling efforts. > > > Forgive me, I've never trained with pure praise. It can't be done, according to janet boss and company. > > It'll change your life. Yeah... GUARANTEED. > I think it already is. INDEED. > I'll let you know in a couple days. I already know... > > > In my family, you did as you were told or you got > > > in a world of trouble. > > Perhaps you'll be the end of your line to raise kids with > > duress and repression? > That may be... Wouldn't THAT be a blessin? Imagine, raising kids to fear nothin? That could mean we'll never be ruled by a dictator or misled by our fearmongers... or marry an abuser, or watch your grandkids get punished. > > > > Here's the problem. When we force control, the > > > > dog is dependent on the controller. When we > > > > rely on corrections of any sort, the dog is repressed > > > > from using his full scope and function. > > > How is that? > > HOWE can we expect the dog to make choices if > > the wrong door has a hammer behind it? > The stress of a wrong choice inhibits thinking...Right? EXACTLY. That's HOWE COME emergency procedures are practiced by the professionals till their responses are reflexive. Then we don't got to worry about doin somethin dangerous, it's part of the job and we weigh our risks as we follow the instructions and make our choices based on FACTS, not fears, reasonable as they may be. > > > Good point. But what is SAR? Perhaps lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn would like to address the fine art of sar dog trainin? Master Of Deception blankman is pretty tight with her. Perhaps they'll collaborate on a training article about HOWE to get top scores in the ring where we can HURT our best dogs on a daily basis till we ruin their desire to work on a real job site. Then we can invite our shock collar expert FRAUDreck to teach us HOWE to shock our dogs till they'll turn their back on their handler being assaulted like in Jerry's HIGH STAKES BUY THE FARM challenge. > > Search and rescue. lynn's dog works perfectly in the ring, > > but won't work a real site cause he knows she can't hurt [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > knew the find ended the day in the park so they ignored > > it to keep sniffin bunny trails. > I thought search and rescue dogs worked for a toy and praise? Yeah? Ever notice the pronged spiked pinch choke collars on many of the sar dog's you've seen on TV? > That's what they show on animal planet anyways. :) Ooooh. I wish you hadn't mentioned animal planet. They're gonna have a particularly tough time with these lessons... Fortunately for dr tripp and their trainers, The Puppy Wizard likes to take an aggressive approach to dog behaviorists who rely on pronged spiked pinch choke collar and aversives and psychotropic drugs to control hyperactive and OCD behaviors. Their demise will be PAINLESS, I assure you. > Same for drug dogs. They always show some kind > of toy like a ball or a rope being given along with praise. Yeah. The dept of agriculture evidently ONLY relies on toy rewards and praise. The Puppy Wizard doesn't like to mix play with work. > > > Thanks for talking with me. > > Thank you for askin. It's not often my fans ask about > > training, they're afraid of gettin the answers you just > > did. Makes life tough... sometimes. > No one should be afraid of answers or of changing > the way they do something. Well, around here, that means our experts got to stop hurtin dogs and stop doin just about everything they've been doin and teachin... That's HOWE COME koehler is pupular, and The Puppy Wizard is NOT. Our dog lovers don't FEEL POWERFUL unless they're choking and dominating their dogs. This is a personality or mental disorder, not a dog training procedure. > Either something works or it doesn't, but you never know > unless you try. Your Puppy Wizard has 40 years of successfully doin what our experts tell us NOT to do. My students report instant success. Our "experts" followers have lifetimes full of trouble, failure, misery, and death. > ttfn Perhaps you'll return the favor? While I've had a lot of FUN here abouts, some of our regulars are in serious trouble because they've been CONvinced by the likes of roo and ed w and Master Of Deception blankman the rest of our koehler Thug Cowards and their sympathizers like disciples Cris, Cad, jo and jeff, that Your Puppy Wizard is a liar and a fraud and a con man. I'd like to ask you a personal favor. marie is about to kill her dog Macula, as she's about to have a new baby and Macula's behavior is not going to be compatible with that event. She's DEAD MEAT, cause nobody else will likely take her being as hyperactive and out of control as she's been since marie has been posting here, despite her four professional training courses. Mind givin her a word of wisdom from The Puppy Wizard? You can tell her it's either my way or get some fifty's together for eddie... Your Puppy Wizard. <(@}; ~ ) > > ~kaeli~ > Visit me at http://home.att.net/~infinite.possibilities eddie likes fifties... <(@}; ~ ) > All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. I know you're a troll...but that's just not true. My cat pounces at me sometimes but she's playing. I let her do it when she was little and let her bite on my hands because it didn't hurt and I didn't think much of it when she just laid on my lap and nibbled my fingers. Now, she thinks she can do it all the time. It's not fear or aggression. She thinks she's playing with me. She has never done it to anyone else. She just thinks that's how she and I play. >All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >playing with me. She has never done it to anyone else. She just thinks >that's how she and I play. You just got hooked by replying to this well known netloon and troll. Once he baits you as he does with others, you became troll bait and he will flame you and harass you through this newsgroup and in email. PLEASE killfile this well known Jerry Howe aka The Puppy Wizard who is using alot of alias in here. He is a pathological liar and net kook. All he does is slander and defame people in here. He knows nothing about dog training or canine behavior. He just makes this up and has been trolling this newsgroup for years. >>All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > canine behavior. He just makes this up and > has been trolling this newsgroup for years. I know he's an idiot :) It just made me mad. I'll try to resist feeding the trolls from now on :) >>All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > canine behavior. He just makes this up and > has been trolling this newsgroup for years. Shuttup you clueless fuckwit. > All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > when she just laid on my lap and nibbled my fingers. Now, she thinks she > can do it all the time. ...and that is because you allowed the habit to form when your cat was a kitten. The message was: This behavior is okay. This is exactly why she thinks this behavior is okay now. You will have a very difficult time changing this. > It's not fear or aggression. She thinks she's > playing with me. She has never done it to anyone else. She just thinks > that's how she and I play. >> All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> It's not fear or aggression. She thinks she's playing with me. She has >> never done it to anyone else. She just thinks that's how she and I play. Oh I know that's why she thinks it's ok. She was my first pet and I thought it was just cute when she was a kitten :) My reflexes have gotten better and she rarely gets skin anymore. When she tries to bite at my arms I move them and tell her no very loudly. She usually stops trying to bite then. Now she usually just jumps up at me when she's excited and taps me with her paws. She doesn't do the biting thing as often. She used to break skin, but she hasn't done that in months. She's only about 1 1/2 yrs old. I know when they are kittens it hard to resist the urge to play "rough" with them. I know Ornery, if we're not careful, will end up thinking he can still act like a kitten when he's over 1 yr old. Nightshade used to lay on my neck and suck on my earlobes...cute back then, but now that he's over 10 lbs and I am under 70 lbs, it's not so cute any more...Luckily, he stopped the nibbling but still likes to lay in the middle of my husband and I at night with his front legs around me... >>> All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > break skin, but she hasn't done that in months. She's only about 1 1/2 > yrs old. > I know when they are kittens it hard to resist the urge to play "rough" with > them. I know Ornery, if we're not careful, will end up thinking he can still > act like a kitten when he's over 1 yr old. Nightshade used to lay on my neck > and suck on my earlobes...cute back then, but now that he's over 10 lbs and > I am under 70 lbs, How can you weigh under 70 lbs an function? I am only 4 ft 5,too.....Just how do people who are overweight function,too?? You manage. >> I know when they are kittens it hard to resist the urge to play "rough" > with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > How can you weigh under 70 lbs an function? > I am only 4 ft 5,too.....Just how do people who are overweight > function,too?? You manage. Sorry, I did not mean to get personal. I was concerned that you might be ill. Well, yes and no...I have diabetes, Rheumatoid Arthritis and other maladies, but having my animals keeps my mind off my problems... >> I am only 4 ft 5,too.....Just how do people who are overweight >> function,too?? You manage. > > Sorry, I did not mean to get personal. I was concerned that > you might be ill. > Well, yes and no...I have diabetes, Rheumatoid Arthritis and other > maladies, but having my animals keeps my mind off my problems... I can see the problems of cat scratches if you have diabetes. They supposedly have a high risk of infection. I know a 20 something woman with osteoarthritis, so my sympathies on all fronts. Also, since this my first attempt at a newsgroup post, please don't mock if it comes out all screwed up. Suddenly, without warning, Beth exclaimed (02-Oct-05 2:47 PM): >>>All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > paws. She doesn't do the biting thing as often. She used to break skin, > but she hasn't done that in months. She's only about 1 1/2 yrs old. I'm not quite sure what went on in my cat's furry little mind, but she some how sorted out that while biting was not on, licking was OK. So for quite a while, when she'd go to bite me - quick head movement and all that - she'd end up licking me furiously instead. It was very cute! jmc > Suddenly, without warning, Beth exclaimed (02-Oct-05 2:47 PM): >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > jmc Awe, that is cute! Mine sometimes licks me after trying to bite me. I think it's her way of saying that she's sorry for trying to take my arm off :) > Suddenly, without warning, Beth exclaimed (02-Oct-05 2:47 PM): >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>>little and let her bite on my hands because it didn't hurt and I >>>>didn't think much of it when she just laid on my lap and nibbled my >>>>fingers. Now, she thinks she can do it all the time. >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> Oh I know that's why she thinks it's ok. She was my first pet and I >> thought it was just cute when she was a kitten :) My reflexes have >> gotten better and she rarely gets skin anymore. When she tries to >> bite at my arms I move them and tell her no very loudly. She usually >> stops trying to bite then. Now she usually just jumps up at me when >> she's excited and taps me with her paws. She doesn't do the biting >> thing as often. She used to break skin, but she hasn't done that in >> months. She's only about 1 1/2 yrs old. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > jmc I have a cat that loves to bite, kick scratch, and lick. Her name's Fireball of course. She's the only cat I know that needs to be annoyed periodically for her own happiness. She also will exaggerate any accident to get sympathy. My other cat, an enormously strong 15 pound lean male that, while terrified of everything, will sometimes scratch me accidently with his extra toes. He doesn't want me to stop petting so soon. During a severe allergy induced seizure he bit me full on the arm a fewimes in quick succession. The scar if barely noticeable, and he had unusually large fang sized canines. That is the only time a cat has ever done more than create a minor itch. I just don't see how an animal can injure something 10 to 20 times its size. > During a severe allergy induced seizure he bit me full on the arm a > fewimes in quick succession. The scar if barely noticeable, and he [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > its > size. You simply may not scar easily. Hodge has bitten me hard several times; I don't scar very easily, but I do have many scars. I have a sizeable one on my thigh where he bit off a chunk of flesh and which became mildly infected and took longer to heal. When I first got him and he would attack and not let go, it was scary because they are surprisingly strong (animals have much more efficient muscles than humans) and tenacious, and a few times I lost some blood (not like being bitten in "quick succession" -- a furious cat bites and hangs on, and is smart enough to go for vulnerable spots). I don't have any systemic diseases, so I healed pretty quickly -- quickly not being as quickly as other wounds, because they are bites. I wouldn't be dismissive, not having had some experience.  SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ "D." <delenn@nospamatmindspring.com> wrote in news:G%iJf.12833 $Nv2.8414@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net: > You simply may not scar easily. Hodge has bitten me hard several times; > I don't scar very easily, but I do have many scars. I have a sizeable [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > wounds, because they are bites. I wouldn't be dismissive, not having had > some experience. It's late so I'm probably writing things in a more impulsive manner than I intend. Yeah, on second thought, I do have rather thick skin and am rather robust in lean mass. (I also have a bit of mass on top of that.) But believe me when Cerberus seized, his teeth were not holding back at all. Humans are animals, so trying to create a qualitative difference where there is none is more anthropomorphism than I would expect on a pet loving newsgroup. Evolution adapted felines to ambush hunting. Their bodies specialize in fast twitch muscle fibers and high burst strength but low endurance. This makes them look stronger overall than they really are. Pound for pound muscles are pretty much the same across the board in animals. Due to bone and muscle attachment points humans give up a lot of brute force but gain precision movement with the same muscle mass. > But believe me when Cerberus seized, his teeth were not holding back > at all. But you said "quick succession," which is quite different from having a cat grab onto you and not let go, or grab and pull. They also have a ton of bacteria in their mouths and can get it well under the skin. Wolverines aren't all that big, but I sure wouldn't want to tick one off. :) SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ > It's late so I'm probably writing things in a more impulsive manner > than I intend. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But believe me when Cerberus seized, his teeth were not holding back > at all. Contractions while seizuring (the proper word is seizuring - not seizing) are completely different that a full-blown purposeful bite. A cat that wanted to bite you *would* break the skin. Why did you reply to a post that was over 4 months old, anyway? Just curious. -L. >> It's late so I'm probably writing things in a more impulsive manner >> than I intend. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -L. I only recently activated my server, and this is the first time that I've seen this newsgroup. I'm still practicing this whole posting thing. I, intellectually, know that it's siezuring, but I just hate how that sounds. Believe me when Cerberus chomped, there was no bite strength held in reserve. It broke the skin and bled, but just left the barest hint of a scar. I didn't mean for it to sound like I'm belittling those attacked by housecats gone batsh*t crazy. I know that it came out that way. "D." <delenn@nospamatmindspring.com> wrote in message > so I healed pretty quickly -- quickly not being as quickly as other > wounds, because they are bites. I wouldn't be dismissive, not having had > some experience. My Deetoo at 11 months old doesn't scratch or bite much any more. When she first started it, I'd wrestle her back grabbing her stomach and tapping her nose with a finger. It got to the point where she'd go full force and I'd have to pull my hand away, but I'd keep up the wrestling and now she knows that if she wrestles, she's going to get more in return, so it doesn't happen much anymore. The only time she bites now is when she's licking my hand and sometimes it turns into a playful bite witch doesn't hurt at all except when she gets one of my finger in her rear teeth. That I'm now careful to avoid, but the rest is just playful fun. > All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. > > I know you're a troll...but that's just not true. My cat pounces at me sometimes but she's playing. I let her do it when she > was little and let her bite on my hands because it didn't hurt and I didn't think much of it when she just laid on my lap and > nibbled my fingers. Now, she thinks she can do it all the time. It's not fear or aggression. She thinks she's playing with me. > She has never done it to anyone else. She just thinks that's how she and I play. Wanna try something cool? When your kitty is biting you playfully, rub her teeth, like a tooth massage. An amazing thing will happen, after a while, if your experience is similar to mine. My cats start thinking of their teeth as objects of affection and not just tools of aggression (however playful) and eating, not to mention the pain that they probably felt when teething. Not only has this profoundly changed my favorite cat, but it also affected my sister-in-law's retweiller who no longer jumps up on me and loves to have her teeth rubbed. She no longer slobbers or bites (she never did bite in a threatening way) ... but she really loves to see me. My cat 50, will sit on the bed and bite my wife playfully although sometimes annoyingly. When I act in a way to try to make him bite me the same way, he refuses. And he shows so much trust in me, it's kind of embarrassing. Sometimes I spray him when he gets on our kitchen table. If he doesn't see who is squirting him, he'll run over to me for protection. Anyway, I just wanted to share my tooth massage experience. We should have a revolving DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS post. Meaning ignore it. I believe this was one of Jerry Howe's, while looking for the FAQ for alt.pets. cats, I found him as far back as 1985. He may go farther I just didn't look for him. Same kind of thing back then. Signature"Other than telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and now, die, I think the Republicans have done a fine job of getting government out of our personal lives." > >> All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Anyway, I just wanted to share my tooth massage experience. HOWEDY Beth, > All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. > > I know you're a troll... Sometimes folks respond angrily to EMBARRASSING information. It's kinda like "kill the messenger". Ask Jesus, they got him just as you'd try to nail me for the same message. > but that's just not true. EVERY THING I SAY IS TRUE, and can be PROVEN with your own critters right there in front of your own eyes, in minutes, if you study my manual and follow my methods PRECISELY and ASK ME if you need any additional FREE help. > My cat pounces at me sometimes but she's playing. Well then, THAT AIN'T AGGRESSION, is it. > I let her do it when she was little and let her bite > on my hands because it didn't hurt and I didn't think > much of it when she just laid on my lap and nibbled my > fingers. Now, she thinks she can do it all the time. > It's not fear or aggression. She thinks she's playing > with me. Then you should rescind your remarks and apologize. > She has never done it to anyone else. "Familiarity breeds contempt. They only kill their masters". > She just thinks that's how she and I play. Then that's NOT aggression, IS IT. HOWEver, your reply to one of the other know nuthin posters BELIES YOU: From: "Beth" <Beth_628_2...@ameritech.net> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:47:11 GMT Subject: Re: CAT ATTACKS KID! > Beth wrote: >>> All aggression is fear. All fear is caused by mishandling. >> I know you're a troll...but that's just not true. > ...and that is because you allowed the habit to form > when your cat was a kitten. The message was: This > behavior is okay. So we AIN'T talkin about AGGRESSION. OR ARE WE??? > This is exactly why she thinks this behavior is okay now. UNLESS IT'S AGGRESSION. > You will have a very difficult time changing this. NOT TRUE. We can extinguish or modify ANY behavior NEARLY INSTANTLY if you study and follow my methods PRECISELY. >> It's not fear or aggression. She thinks she's >> playing with me. She has never done it to anyone else. Does she PLAY with OTHER folks? If she PLAYS with other people but DOESN'T BITE THEM, then I'd say the "PLAY" is NOT PLAY, it's AGGRESSION otherWIZE she'd PLAY JUST LIKE THAT with folks she has no LOVE / HATE relationship with. > She just thinks that's how she and I play. You think she bites you because her LOVE for you is SPECIAL??? That's not SHARING, is it. HOWE COME you kitty kat doesn't SHARE her LOVE with your friends??? Is it because you're SPECIAL? Or is it because SHE KNOWS BITING YOU HURTS and she GOT NO REASON to HURT casual FRIENDS. > Oh I know that's why she thinks it's ok. > She was my first pet and I thought it was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > at my arms I move them and tell her no very > loudly. And THAT SCARES her and VIOLATES TRUST, a RELATIONSHIP she doesn't SHARE with CASUAL FRIENDS who have NO CON-TROLL over her. > She usually stops trying to bite then. BECAUSE YOU INTIMIDATE HER EVERY TIME SHE DOES IT, EXXXCEPT when you MISS and she GETS YOU AGAIN which VARIABLY REINFORCES her "OWNER AGGRESSION". > Now she usually just jumps up at me when she's excited You mean FRUSTRATED, like when you're too slow gettin her breakfast or withholding her toys or treats. > and taps me with her paws. Because she LOVES YOU? > She doesn't do the biting thing as often. Because you INTIMIDATE her when she does it? > She used to break skin, Even a KAT knows better than THAT. > but she hasn't done that in months. Well, I suppose THAT'S SUCCESS??? > She's only about 1 1/2 yrs old. We'll see HOWE her AFFECTION develops... HOWEDY ADM, adm wrote: > > I tried to read the manual from the site you gave > > me but it was mostly gibberish. I finally found a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in the a.s reading it from the various referenced > posts from the APW. This may be the link you had difficulty with: http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u . That could be because it's in three parts for folks who had difficulty downloading the entire text in one fell swoop. > I have to say, it reads much better in .pdf format. > > For anone that is interested, here is the link: > > http://www.irishdogs.ie/Information/Wits_End_Dog_Training.pdf Thank you! Please study my manual using a text to speech reader. There's a free one at http://www.ultrahal.com If you need any additional free help call me ANY TIME at 407-425-5092. From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com> To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com> Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400 Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business" and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising from professors of behavior analysis. I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson (Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house. There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior. Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose "The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to commercial) psychology. George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. you may find my resume in Who's Who in Science and Technology From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:26:31 GMT Subject: Dr. George VonHilshimer Writes: "No Loving, No Learning." HOWEDY People, Perhaps the PROBLEM is "TOO MANY WORDS?" From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net> To: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:40 AM Subject: Fw: Counter Cruising must stop > From: "diannes" <dian...@bolt.sonic.net> > Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > > then there must be a flaw in the philosophy > > > > > underlying that technique. > > > > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of method > > > > is involved - that's just acceptance of reality. > > > First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the > > > method, though anyone is welcome to make that > > > leap. > > > I said there was a flaw in the underlying philosophy > > > and its model of learning. > > Correction accepted. I think that perhaps we are using > > terminology differently here. Here is my use of the terms: Jerry, I don't know where you find these folk who can't read. > In order to use negative reinforcement, one must > typically administer the aversive stimulus in order > to be able to terminate it. This is not negative reinforcement. Negative means no. Positive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog, reward emitted immediately by trainer; Negative reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog, no response by trainer; Aversive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog, aversive stimuli emitted immediately by trainer; The term "reinforcement is used only tentatively with "aversion" because aversive stimuli (aka punishment) typically derange learning and are not followed by clean learning curves equivalent to those which follow reward or positive reinforcement; Escape conditioning = dog has an aversive stimulus applied without any dog related reason and when behavior is emitted aversive stim is immediately turned off . There is some indication that Escape Conditioning works in a manner closely approximating reward; but, ear pinch? -- too aversive. I remind you that you should beat them over the head with "The Misbehavior of Organisms" by Breland and Breland, published in B.F. Skinner's CUMULATIVE RECORD. Ignored by most profs of psychology, but the distillation of his work. NO PUNISHMENT. Must pay attention to who is the animal? His evolution, his development, and his personal history - cannot train without respect for who is the dog? So says the BIG TIME operant conditioning guru - and you can also refer back to MARY COVER JONES (mother of scientific systematic psychology), no loving, no learning. I suppose I could wire up a dog so that his brain was badly interrupted and the loving method of puppy training might not work well - but it would still work better than the methods used by dominatrix and their ilk. Lovingly applied ethological techniques like the one espoused by the Wizard of ALL puppies work for all dogs, for that matter for all mammals higher than cat. Indeed, they will work for cats if trainer is warmly competent. You can see this in Key West on any sunny day. Housecats performing quite happily. Fondly, Dr. Von From: TooCool (larrym...@hotmail.com) The Puppy Wizard's Wits End Training Method I have studied canine behavior and dog training for years. I have a huge library that covers every system of training. The Puppy Wizard's (Jerry Howe's) Wits' End Training Method is by far the most scientific, the most advanced, the kindest, the quickest and the most effective training method yet discovered. It is not an assortment of training tips and tricks; it is a logically consistent system. Every behavior problem and every obedience skill is treated in the same logically consistent manner. Please study his manual carefully. Please endeavor to understand the basis of his system and please follow his directions exactly. His manual is a masterpiece. It is dense with theory, with explanation, with detailed descriptions about why behavior problems occur and how their solution should be approached. One should not pick and choose from among his methods based upon what you personally like or dislike. His is not a bag of tricks but a complete and integrated system for not only training a dog but for raising a loving companion. When I once said to Jerry that his system creates for you the dog of your dreams, his response was that it produces for your dog the owner of his dreams. You see, Jerry has discovered that if you are gentle with your dog then he will be gentle with you, if you praise your dog every time he looks at you, then you will become the center of your dogs world, if you use Jerry's sound distraction with praise, then it takes just minutes-sometimes merely seconds-to train your dog to not misbehave (even in your absence) (Just 15 seconds this morning to train my 10 week old puppy to lie quietly and let me clip his nails). Using Jerry's scientific method (sound distraction / praise / alteration / variation) it takes just minutes to train you dog to respond to your commands. What a pleasure it was for me to see my 6 week old puppy running as fast has his wobbly little legs would carry him in response to my recall command-and he comes running every time I call no matter where we are or what he is doing. At ten weeks old now, my puppy never strains upon his leash thanks to Jerry's hot & cold exercises and his Family Pack Leadership exercises. Jerry has discovered that if you scold your dog, if you scream at him, if you intimidate him, if you hurt him, if you force him then his natural response is to oppose you. Is Jerry a nut? It doesn't make any difference to me whether he is or not. It is a logical fallacy to judge a person's ideas based upon their personality. As far as dogs are concerned, Jerry wears his heart upon his sleeve. It touches him deeply when he hears of trainers forcing, intimidating, scolding or hurting dogs. More than that, he knows that force is not effective and that it will certainly lead to behavior problems; sometime problems so severe that people put their dogs down because of those problems. I believe that it is natural for humans to want to control their dog by force. Jerry knows this too. We have all been at our wits' end, haven't we? Dogs have a natural tendency to mimic. In scientific literature it is referred to allelomimetic behavior. Dogs respond in like kind to force; they respond in like kind to praise. Don't bribe your dog with treats; give him what he wants most-your kind attention. Give him your praise. You will be astonished at how your dog 's anxiety will dissipate and how their behavior problems will dissipate along with their anxiety. Treat Jerry Howe's (The Puppy Wizard) Wits' End Training Method as a scientific principle just as you would the law of gravity and you will have astounding success. Dog behavior is just as scientific as is gravity. If you follow Jerry's puppy rules you will get a sweet little Magwai; if you don't you will surely get a little gremlin (anyone see The Gremlins?). --Larry From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca) Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard? Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST > > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said. > > Mike > Ok Mike which part worked for you? It helped clear problems from my dogs in the field using the can penny distraction technique. Works like a charm. My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie, retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team Leader. Sorry that slipped my mind. I have read volumes of training books and don't know where people get that Jerry copied others work as I have NEVER come across his methods before. I would like to see proof. Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to the way I wanted them but this is backward, you train out the problems leaving what you want left over. Funny part is the second dog who had the same problems as the other didn't need correcting for some of his habits after I cleared it from the first dog. Seemed he learned through osmosis. Nice side benefit there. It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party trainer as they were not performing well. The VAST majority of working dog trainers are agressive in their actions with the dogs. I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I was at my "Whits End" then someone I new turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history. I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual and all have had great results. Starting puppies out on the distraction technique is especially good because they never develop the habit. I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after 2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened in all my days. Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple. Mike "Ama...@DCFWatch.com" wrote: No, the dog learned that I would hold still the second she began to pull. She would pull to go where *she* wanted. Well if she wanted to stop and go in another direction.. say to sniff my neighbors yard.. she learned if she wanted to do it I would stop walking and she could go.. and if there wasn't enough slack on her lead she would just pull me. Then when she got done doing *her* thing, she woudl heel.. smile at me and wait for me to say "let's go" and finish *my* thing. I would refuse to move .. i looked like an idiot.. freezing mid walk for minutes waiting for *my* dog to heel and give *me* permission to go again. I did the treats and the let's go... she got to do her stuff and get a cookie.. if she even wanted the cookie. I wound up calling Jerry.. as I have a half red nose pit and half amstaff.. who is incredibly protective.. we had a new pup on the way.. and i needed help.. i followed petsmarts trainnign guides.. memorized them... and they *did* work, don't get me wrong.. but only when my pet wanted a cookie or felt the cookie was better than what she wanted.. which was not often. She quickly learned to ignore my commands if she could see my hands were empty. So I called Jerry... he chatted me for about an hour and a half.. gave me his link... and even when i had probs intro'ing the pup he called me withn i5 mins of my email for help at 10pm on a sunday night. One.. singular.. uno family pack exercise after the hot and cold exercise and i could zig zag down my street.. about face .. whatever.. and never had tension. two men were acrossed the street and she walked right by them... ordinarily she'd snarl and protect us. And in two days.. my dog.. who bit the puppy if he even looked like he was going near my husband or kids.. is nursing him every hour.. cleaning him.. rough housing gently.. and teaching him to go potty outside.. actually watches him to make sure he doesn't go in the house... and has milk.. which is awesome since she's 19 months old and has never had a litter. She also has stopped barking non stop at our neighbor's dogs and pig.. does not bark at eveyr car that drives by and has stopped jumping on people. she's even starting to ignore our cat who has lived on her dome litter box and our window sill (literally) for over a year and a half. She also does her commands on cue.. and doesn't look for a treat. From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com> Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400 You might improve the learning of folk who actually live with and train dogs to do useful things if you excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists. I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland. This married pair of psychologists began the long trail of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum! The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand the personal history of the particular animal, and the history of this animal's species and group, the developmental history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal. Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking, you aren't going to have much success. A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond, say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell. Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the animal takes action and uses an instrument. The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator, Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology went haring after phantasmagora. The major theorists for the development of the language of operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major role in the development of American psychology. They proposed that learning is the result of the application of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.) Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g., an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant" because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that follows the response that influences whether the response is likely or unlikely to occur again. It is through operant conditioning that voluntary responses are learned. One should note that Russian Psychology did very well without the operant language, and only pettifogging university professors ought to worry about what kind of label we attach to the learning. Pfui! Even Skinner understood this! And please note if you saw the original movie, THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX THERAPY. Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat the fish and not the pretty girl?" George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R. From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com To: <d...@arcane-computing.com Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: Doggy advice Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below. I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything. I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very competent at living with dogs. I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about dogs doing this and that, for example: whining, humping, hunching, pacing, self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking, spinning, prolonged barking, barking at shadows, overstimulated barking, fighting, bullying other dogs, compulsive digging, compulsive scratching, compulsive chewing, frantic behavior, chasing light, chasing shadow, stealing food, digging in garbage can, loosing house (toilet) training. inappropriate fearfulness aggression. The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of the intervening time working with animals (including the human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related). You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans. As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving care. George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate, Academy of Behavioral Medicine From: "Dr. Von" <drv...@mindspring.com> Date: 12 Sep 2005 10:52:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Clicker Training for Dogs Newsgroups? Jen, your request for a positive only dog training list, needs the same answer as I give the folk who ask why I don't have a list for what I do with biofeedback. The method is so simple, and if you adopt it and relate to your dog in such a positive manner you won't have any more problems and there is no need for any more technique. With Puppies we Ph.D. psychologists have been outflanked by the entirely practical and effective methods described in http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u. Free download, nothing sold, no mailing list, no distribution of your name. Free support if needed. With ADHD kids I provide similar information at www.drbiofeedback.com and there is no need for a list dealing with problems with kids. Apply as directed and have happy healthy doggies or kiddies. Not difficult. George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. P.S. jerk and choke, spanking, shocking, scruff shake, choke, chin chucks, all those negatives, denial of affection etc. are harmful, dranging, obscenities. You might want to consider Pavlov's typology to understand "hard and soft dogs" - essentially he taught that there are outward and inward responding organisms in weak and strong nervous systems and if you grasp this firmly you'll shape your training methods effectively. Punishment ALWAYS deranges behavior, and so is recommended and given only by deranged humans. Of course, it doesn't matter if we are talk |
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